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  1. #101
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    My biggest issue out the many I had with the film was that some of the dwarves were just too human looking. My youngest daughter thought that the two youngest dwarves in the company were very cute. This presents a problem because I dont think there is one case of a interracial relationship between a dwarf and a human like there were between Elf and human according to any JRR Tolkien's writings that I am aware of.

    Sorry all you dwarves out there, but I just don't believe that JRR Tolkien Dwarves would generally be looked upon by teenage movie going human girls as being that cute!!!

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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencepost View Post
    I think the point was that they were too young to have grown beards, but I'm probably wrong.
    Dwarves are born with a 5-o'clock shadow which fluffs up to full growth as they're spanked with the flat of an axe before they chew off their own umbilicals

  3. #103
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    I bought the DVD and was able to watch the movie again recently. Most of the things that wrankled me first time round didn't seem to now. But one major issue still sticks in my craw. The Eagles. Never. Talked. Again! Just like in the LOTR trilogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencepost View Post
    I'm not a huge fan of the butterfly being used to summon eagles, as it gives the impression an ancient race is in fact Gandalf's private taxi service.
    Agreed. In the movies the Great Eagles are reduced to giant trained birds. It's sad really 'cause something special is lost here. Seeing this it ain't hard to figure why we get so many requests for Eagles to carry us round in the game.

    /sigh
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by bambubambubambu View Post
    I bought the DVD and was able to watch the movie again recently. Most of the things that wrankled me first time round didn't seem to now.
    Not sure why, as the odd pacing, clumsy characterisation, dodgy plot, inconsistent geography and cartoon physics are still there

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencepost View Post
    I actually didn't mind Elrond orc hunting, as Elrond had once been a general in a war. He commanded Lindon's advance force in the War of Elves and Sauron and I'm pretty sure there was fighting involved there, even if his task as Gil-galad's herald in the War of Last Alliance didn't require any, though given the Gil-galad fought in the front of the battle, there probably was. The main problem I thought was that there were orcs there to start with.
    It's out of place because he's supposed to be a great healer, which by High Elf custom would rule out him also being a great warrior. They believed that hands that healed couldn't also deal death, the two were incompatible.

  6. #106
    I didn't like that they recycled cut scenes from the last series that had nothing to do with The Hobbit, like Bilbo hiding the spoons before his big party. I also didn't like that they cut Over the Misty Mountains Cold down to one verse. It was a beautiful rendition that deserved more time, but instead we got more Frodo. Mostly I'm upset that they added so much fluff and (sometimes lousy) CGI just so they could squeeze three films out of it. Every single scene was overblown and it washed out the truly dramatic moments. It was like they felt the story got in the way of all the mindless action and excessive eye candy. It seems that Tolkien has been supplanted by Hollywood, and not for the better. It was all appearance and no substance, and IMO nothing more than an exercise in hubris and greed. I certainly won't be going to see the rest that dreck. If WB continues down this path I won't be with LOTRO much longer either.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Not sure why, as the odd pacing, clumsy characterisation, dodgy plot, inconsistent geography and cartoon physics are still there
    Heehee Rad! So true!

    Reckon I can turn my 'reality' switch off easier than most folks. Maybe the Eagles are different 'cause it's a lore thing.

    Still bought the movie and still gonna buy parts 2 and 3 when all is said and done though. So there's that. Heh.
    Today is a good day for Pie.

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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by bambubambubambu View Post
    Heehee Rad! So true!

    Reckon I can turn my 'reality' switch off easier than most folks. Maybe the Eagles are different 'cause it's a lore thing.
    Well, I have a fairly forgiving 'reality' switch too (kind of a must for a fan of fantasy), but the thing is my BS detector kept getting pegged at the 'Utter' end of the dial. It's a wonder it didn't just catch fire during the scenes in Goblin-town

    Still bought the movie and still gonna buy parts 2 and 3 when all is said and done though. So there's that. Heh.
    Speaking of part 2 I've just seen a promo shot of Evangeline Lilly as wossname, the random Elf chick:

    http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/i/2013/06/03/FL-The-Hobbit-Desolation-of-Smaug_1224x760.jpg

    Why the red hair, I wonder? Odd choice.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    It's out of place because he's supposed to be a great healer, which by High Elf custom would rule out him also being a great warrior. They believed that hands that healed couldn't also deal death, the two were incompatible.
    Im not sure were your getting this, Aragorn was both a healer and the greatest warrior of the third age, I don't see the incompatibility, an Elf lord actually doing things like of a lord doesn't seem wrong to me.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by bambubambubambu View Post


    Agreed. In the movies the Great Eagles are reduced to giant trained birds. It's sad really 'cause something special is lost here. Seeing this it ain't hard to figure why we get so many requests for Eagles to carry us round in the game.

    /sigh

    I really enjoyed the movie but this thread is about what we don't like about it so I have to agree with this. In the books the Eagles are great, intelligent, majestic beings and yeah, they are nothing more than a taxi service in the film. It was a let down.

    I'll still see the next two movies though.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Im not sure were your getting this, Aragorn was both a healer and the greatest warrior of the third age, I don't see the incompatibility, an Elf lord actually doing things like of a lord doesn't seem wrong to me.
    Laws and Customs among the Eldar, that's where, as in Volume 10 of HoME. As for Aragorn, he wasn't an Elf, so his fate wasn't the same as theirs and the same 'rules' didn't necessarily apply.

    Thanks to the movies, people will insist on imagining Elrond fighting but he was Gil-galad's herald, and that's a non-combat role. The idea of having him leaving Rivendell himself to go hunting Orcs is nuts as far as the books go - he had Glorfindel and his own two sons to do that sort of thing.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Thanks to the movies, people will insist on imagining Elrond fighting but he was Gil-galad's herald, and that's a non-combat role. The idea of having him leaving Rivendell himself to go hunting Orcs is nuts as far as the books go - he had Glorfindel and his own two sons to do that sort of thing.
    Herald of Gil-galad (being as well one of the Wise, one of the chief leaders of Noldorin remnant, the wielder of one of the Three, and Earendil's son to boot) is not the same as your classical medieval 'herald'. He was one of the leaders of the Alliance host. He led armies as far back as the Second Age in Eriador wars, and was present at the fall of Thangorodrim.
    Elrond was for all intents and purposes one of the Eldar in full might and wisdom, indeed one of the mightiest still lingering in Middle-Earth. He could and did fight quite a bit in his life.

    At that particular moment he of course had much more important duties to attend to, but generally nothing would stop him from leading a border assault.
    Last edited by Egorvlad; Jun 05 2013 at 08:05 PM.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egorvlad View Post
    Herald of Gil-galad (being as well one of the Wise, one of the chief leaders of Noldorin remnant, the wielder of one of the Three, and Earendil's son to boot) is not the same as your classical medieval 'herald'.
    Says who? You? Certainly not Tolkien. And I can't see what you hoped to demonstrate by mentioning the Three there, because whatever else those were definitively not weapons - Elrond says so himself, that that wasn't their power.

    And sorry, the fall of Thangorodrim? As I recall Tolkien quite clearly said that none of the Elves of Middle-earth were involved in the War of Wrath, and Elrond would still have been only a child back then in any case.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Laws and Customs among the Eldar, that's where, as in Volume 10 of HoME. As for Aragorn, he wasn't an Elf, so his fate wasn't the same as theirs and the same 'rules' didn't necessarily apply.

    Thanks to the movies, people will insist on imagining Elrond fighting but he was Gil-galad's herald, and that's a non-combat role. The idea of having him leaving Rivendell himself to go hunting Orcs is nuts as far as the books go - he had Glorfindel and his own two sons to do that sort of thing.
    Regardless of what is written in book 10 of HoME, Tolkien contradicts that statement with Mablung, Beleg, and Glorfindel. The first heals fugitives from the Nirnaeth, the second himself, and Glorfindel succors Frodo after the Morgul knife wound. He wrote the text cited in book 10 late in life when he was rewriting a great deal of his own previous canon.

    As to Elrond, I can see no reason that anyone could assume that he never engaged in battle simply because it isn't mentioned.

    Regardless, this is such an incredibly minor flaw set beside the gross travesty of the majority of the film that I wonder how you could focus on it.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Laws and Customs among the Eldar, that's where, as in Volume 10 of HoME. As for Aragorn, he wasn't an Elf, so his fate wasn't the same as theirs and the same 'rules' didn't necessarily apply.

    Thanks to the movies, people will insist on imagining Elrond fighting but he was Gil-galad's herald, and that's a non-combat role. The idea of having him leaving Rivendell himself to go hunting Orcs is nuts as far as the books go - he had Glorfindel and his own two sons to do that sort of thing.
    You re-read it, page 213, 214. Its was custome for elven maidens to NOT go in arms or hunting yet they fought valiant if that was the case GENERALLY it was elven maiden who were healers, so I deduce:

    Elrond is an elven (male) healer, so by Laws and Customs of the Eldar he might take arms (yet not hunting) but when he heals he can't be doing the same thing, he needs to be either fighting or healing.

    Elrond also trained Aragorn as his son, so in a way he trained him his customs and his heritage BOTH. so Aragorn is also a healer and a warrior, he can't do both things at the same time though.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    You re-read it, page 213, 214. Its was custome for elven maidens to NOT go in arms or hunting yet they fought valiant if that was the case GENERALLY it was elven maiden who were healers, so I deduce:

    Elrond is an elven (male) healer, so by Laws and Customs of the Eldar he might take arms (yet not hunting) but when he heals he can't be doing the same thing, he needs to be either fighting or healing.

    Elrond also trained Aragorn as his son, so in a way he trained him his customs and his heritage BOTH. so Aragorn is also a healer and a warrior, he can't do both things at the same time though.
    It says that the virtue of the female Elves when it came to healing was believed to be because they didn't tend to go hunting or go off to fight in war (those being traditionally male roles), not because there was something special about being female. Most healers were female as a result but some were male, and Elrond would be an example. So by that, to be a great healer he'd have to refrain from violence just like the Elf-women typically did. Whatever he may have done in the past, at the time we're talking about (the late Third Age) he would therefore not be inclined to go riding around hunting Orcs or anything else. He'd got people to do that for him.

    It comes across as something far more restrictive than your idea that if they hadn't killed something for five minutes or whatever then they could heal. The text doesn't support any such convenient exception for male Elves.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Says who? You? Certainly not Tolkien. And I can't see what you hoped to demonstrate by mentioning the Three there, because whatever else those were definitively not weapons - Elrond says so himself, that that wasn't their power.

    And sorry, the fall of Thangorodrim? As I recall Tolkien quite clearly said that none of the Elves of Middle-earth were involved in the War of Wrath, and Elrond would still have been only a child back then in any case.
    The point of that sentence was to show that Elrond at that moment is one of the...what...5 or 6 most powerful persons in Middle-Earth. He is the chief lieutenant of Gil-galad (and had been one for quite some time already), he rules his own Noldorin enclave (for a long time then). In this case 'herald' is what you'd call an honorary title. Elrond is in so much just a herald, as Ecthelion of the Fountain is just a gate guard in Gondolin. Normal heralds are not rulers, they do not act as force commanders nor do they get to fight in the chief melees - like the one on Orodruin which included Gil-galad, Elrond, Cirdan, Elendil and Isildur.

    At the fall of Thangorodrim Elrond and Elros were 55 years old. They were involved in the War of Wrath up to their necks, even their father fought there after all. The involvement of Middle-Earth Elves in the actual fighting is a murky matter (not too many of them and scattered anyway), but everyone else did fight for certain (on both sides as Tolkien mentioned). And Elrond was not in fact an Elf by then, the Half-Elven were presented with a choice only after the war. No one says he was hacking orcs in front of the gates, we don't know that, but he was definitely present.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    It says that the virtue of the female Elves when it came to healing was believed to be because they didn't tend to go hunting or go off to fight in war (those being traditionally male roles), not because there was something special about being female. Most healers were female as a result but some were male, and Elrond would be an example. So by that, to be a great healer he'd have to refrain from violence just like the Elf-women typically did. Whatever he may have done in the past, at the time we're talking about (the late Third Age) he would therefore not be inclined to go riding around hunting Orcs or anything else. He'd got people to do that for him.

    It comes across as something far more restrictive than your idea that if they hadn't killed something for five minutes or whatever then they could heal. The text doesn't support any such convenient exception for male Elves.
    You have to remember that the whole sum of Tolkien's writings does not represent one fixed tradition in the slightest. Especially in the case of the HoME which covers Tolkien's shifting and evolving ideas covering half a century.
    The essay you mention may or may not have been connected to extant Silmarillion, LotR or Hobbit and may or may not have been applicable to the Elves in either of those periods. But it certainly wasn't meant to apply to the central characters in the main stories (Heroes if you will), heroes in epic literature even in general aren't supposed to fit tight restrictions of the general populace (if any), that's why they are heroes.

    Also just as a side thought: Being one of the mightiest warriors in your enclave and refusing to fight *in defence* of your home *in principle* thus making other Elves take the risk of being slain, is hypocrisy.
    We all agree that as of 'Hobbit' Elrond most likely did not have to fight anyone for a long time and most likely did not. But that in no way precludes a possibility of his involvement at need. Since the movie (especially by Jackson) is a medium very far removed from the book *details* we can well imagine the danger to Imladris from that particular orc band was significant enough to allow this possibility.
    Last edited by Egorvlad; Jun 06 2013 at 08:57 AM.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egorvlad View Post
    The point of that sentence was to show that Elrond at that moment is one of the...what...5 or 6 most powerful persons in Middle-Earth. He is the chief lieutenant of Gil-galad (and had been one for quite some time already), he rules his own Noldorin enclave (for a long time then). In this case 'herald' is what you'd call an honorary title. Elrond is in so much just a herald, as Ecthelion of the Fountain is just a gate guard in Gondolin. Normal heralds are not rulers, they do not act as force commanders nor do they get to fight in the chief melees - like the one on Orodruin which included Gil-galad, Elrond, Cirdan, Elendil and Isildur.
    Why did Tolkien specifically refer to him as Gil-galad's herald at all, then? You've not come close to answering that, you're just trying to make excuses for ignoring it. Besides, Elrond had not chosen to be a ruler - he actually had a claim to Gil-galad's throne (via Turgon) but didn't exercise it. He instead remained in Rivendell which was essentially an intellectual retreat, not some mighty Elvish realm.

    At the fall of Thangorodrim Elrond and Elros were 55 years old. They were involved in the War of Wrath up to their necks, even their father fought there after all. The involvement of Middle-Earth Elves in the actual fighting is a murky matter (not too many of them and scattered anyway), but everyone else did fight for certain (on both sides as Tolkien mentioned). And Elrond was not in fact an Elf by then, the Half-Elven were presented with a choice only after the war. No one says he was hacking orcs in front of the gates, we don't know that, but he was definitely present.
    Then let's have a quote regarding Thangorodrim, please. Just what 'murky matter' are you referring to?

    '...for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands ... and tidings of those things they only learned of long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman.'

    - 'Of the Voyage of Earendil'

    So the Elves of Middle-earth only found out what happened during the War of Wrath second-hand from the Elves of Aman; if Elrond had been there, he could simply have told the tale first-hand, yes? As for being fifty-five, kindly remember that Elves didn't mature until they were about a hundred, and Half-elves didn't start ageing like Men until they chose to be mortal.

    Earendil's presence is irrelevant, given his circumstances following his voyage to Aman.


    You have to remember that the whole sum of Tolkien's writings does not represent one fixed tradition in the slightest. Especially in the case of the HoME which covers Tolkien's shifting and evolving ideas covering half a century.
    The essay you mention may or may not have been connected to extant Silmarillion, LotR or Hobbit and may or may not have been applicable to the Elves in either of those periods. But it certainly wasn't meant to apply to the central characters in the main stories (Heroes if you will), heroes in epic literature even in general aren't supposed to fit tight restrictions of the general populace (if any), that's why they are heroes.
    More excuses. Don't try to pretend it's inconsistent unless you can offer some evidence that it actually is.

    Also just as a side thought: Being one of the mightiest warriors in your enclave and refusing to fight *in defence* of your home *in principle* thus making other Elves take the risk of being slain, is hypocrisy.
    We all agree that as of 'Hobbit' Elrond most likely did not have to fight anyone for a long time and most likely did not. But that in no way precludes a possibility of his involvement at need. Since the movie (especially by Jackson) is a medium very far removed from the book *details* we can well imagine the danger to Imladris from that particular orc band was significant enough to allow this possibility.
    Umm... no. If he was a noted healer then the Elves would understand and appreciate why he wasn't fighting. And the whole point about PJ's version is that it fails precisely because it's trying to be LOTR-ish while simultaneously being way off the mark. There are other howlers, like Galadriel's apparent ability to appear and disappear at will. How's she doing that, exactly? It's just PJ throwing generic fantasy around, again.

  19. #119
    No amount of fanboy lawyering will change Elrond into a War-Lord, which is how Jackson has indeed mischaracterized him in the Hobbit film. Tolkien's intents are clear - Elrond's heroic epithets (wise, healer, lore-master) are not those of a warrior (swift, strong-armed, bold) and there is no instance, to my knowledge, of Elrond even going armed. It is not outside of possibility that Elrond could have participated in such activities, however given Jackson's penchant for "action-adventurizing" characters (Master Bilbo Baggins Esq.) this emphasis must be seen in a very dubious light.

    Elrond is one of the most important characters of Second and Third Age Middle-Earth and so must be present at the great events of those times, much like Hercules must be present at the gathering of Argonauts, but cannot over-shadow the ostensible hero, Jason, and so is soon dropped from the narrative. Jackson starts his mischaracterization of Elrond virtually as soon as Fellowship prologue begins by omitting the heroes of the battle, Gil-Galad and Elendil, and showing Elrond in the role of commanding general and blood drenched warrior. Inasmuch as Jackson would rather the Hobbit be a bridge and prequel to his own cinematic achievements than an honest representation of Tolkien on the screen, there is a direct line to be drawn from this Elrond to the warrior of the Hobbit.

    A small thing, yes, but representative of what is wrong with this film.

    EDIT: Reply concurrent with Rad's, so please forgive the same conclusion.
    Last edited by JGP; Jun 06 2013 at 02:58 PM.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    It says that the virtue of the female Elves when it came to healing was believed to be because they didn't tend to go hunting or go off to fight in war (those being traditionally male roles), not because there was something special about being female. Most healers were female as a result but some were male, and Elrond would be an example. So by that, to be a great healer he'd have to refrain from violence just like the Elf-women typically did. Whatever he may have done in the past, at the time we're talking about (the late Third Age) he would therefore not be inclined to go riding around hunting Orcs or anything else. He'd got people to do that for him.

    It comes across as something far more restrictive than your idea that if they hadn't killed something for five minutes or whatever then they could heal. The text doesn't support any such convenient exception for male Elves.
    Tolkien explicitly said:

    Noldor males took arms role

    And woman Healers ability diminished with violence, hunting.

    And healers were usually women.

    Acoording to tolkien Elrond is a Noldor male and a healer, there is no contradiction here, first elrond been a male probably participate in arms combat is also reassured by being Gil-Galad's herald.

    Second, Elrond didn't have to refrain from combat because of his healing ability would diminish because only women healers had that problem, in other words Elrond been a male had the advantage in healing role.

  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Then let's have a quote regarding Thangorodrim, please. Just what 'murky matter' are you referring to?
    '...for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands ... and tidings of those things they only learned of long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman.'
    Full quote: "...for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands and who made the histories of those days that still are known"
    Hardly all the Elves made histories, much less histories surviving for ages in the later tumults. And it's a practical impossibility that all the Elves in the West of Middle-Earth managed to avoid the global war that tore up the whole landmass. Especially since all other peoples, including the Edain, much mingled with the Elves by that time, were very much involved in the fight as the Silmarillion tells us. Some must have fought, some died, some never wanted to even talk about it later, none could construct a whole picture of the battle of Powers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    So the Elves of Middle-earth only found out what happened during the War of Wrath second-hand from the Elves of Aman; if Elrond had been there, he could simply have told the tale first-hand, yes? As for being fifty-five, kindly remember that Elves didn't mature until they were about a hundred, and Half-elves didn't start ageing like Men until they chose to be mortal.
    I'd say he was one of the main sources for any information whatsoever about the War of Wrath in Middle-Earth. Since the things Elves learned in Aman would mostly stay in Aman with them. We do ostensibly derive the Silmarillion from Bilbo's Red Book after all, which used sources in Rivendell.
    Again, Elrond and Elros were *not* Elves then. And in childhood Elves are much like Men and grow at about the same rate till they reach the "preservation" state, after which they grow in wisdom and power. Mentioned in many places, "Narn i hin Hurin" being one. And they were very much mature by that time to have made a choice of Kindred.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Why did Tolkien specifically refer to him as Gil-galad's herald at all, then? You've not come close to answering that, you're just trying to make excuses for ignoring it. Besides, Elrond had not chosen to be a ruler - he actually had a claim to Gil-galad's throne (via Turgon) but didn't exercise it. He instead remained in Rivendell which was essentially an intellectual retreat, not some mighty Elvish realm.
    Elrond did not have a comparable claim to the title. Gil-Galad was the son of Fingon, the elder in the House of Fingolfin. Simple primogeniture gives Elrond any claim only after Gil-galad's childless death.
    The fact is Elrond had been a ruler for ages and he had acted as a general many times as a ruler would have to in any case. As I said, the honorary title is given specifically to be used. Same way as Ecthelion is referred to as "the Warden of the Gate", not "the Leader of the House of the Fountains and one of Gondolin's generals" (his titles as well). Fact is that Gil-galad had 2 chief lieutenants of note - Elrond and Cirdan, both of which led their forces under his overall command. And do you really believe that Elrond ended up as one of the 3 survivors of the last mad fight upon Orodruin without drawing a sword?


    Anyway, those are just details discussions and we can argue for a very long time. It's as pointless to argue that Elrond was a Conan-barbarian fighter as it is to say that he was a benevolent healer who never held a sword in his life. As any great and significant epic character he could and had to be both a leader, a fighter, a healer, and a wise counsellor in different stages of his life.

    That said, none of us likes the way Jackson butchers Tolkien's lore. I understand the reasons for it in this medium (at least in "Hobbit", I still loathe his "LotR"), but I don't have to like it.
    Last edited by Egorvlad; Jun 06 2013 at 04:34 PM.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Tolkien explicitly said:

    Noldor males took arms role

    And woman Healers ability diminished with violence, hunting.

    And healers were usually women.
    Yes, healers were typically female, warriors were typically male but that allows exceptions both ways - both female warriors and males who don't fight.

    Acoording to tolkien Elrond is a Noldor male and a healer, there is no contradiction here, first elrond been a male probably participate in arms combat is also reassured by being Gil-Galad's herald.
    Okay, so you obviously don't know what a herald's job is.

    Second, Elrond didn't have to refrain from combat because of his healing ability would diminish because only women healers had that problem, in other words Elrond been a male had the advantage in healing role.
    That's not what it says at all.

    '...the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to them abstaining or refraining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood.'

    i.e. female Elves tended to be better healers because they avoided killing, not because they were female. To be great healers, male Elves would have to avoid killing in just the same way the female Elves did:

    'On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need.'

    In other words, you're wrong, there was no advantage to being male when it came to healing.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egorvlad View Post
    Full quote: "...for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands and who made the histories of those days that still are known"
    Hardly all the Elves made histories, much less histories surviving for ages in the later tumults. And it's a practical impossibility that all the Elves in the West of Middle-Earth managed to avoid the global war that tore up the whole landmass. Especially since all other peoples, including the Edain, much mingled with the Elves by that time, were very much involved in the fight as the Silmarillion tells us. Some must have fought, some died, some never wanted to even talk about it later, none could construct a whole picture of the battle of Powers.
    This is waffle, the meaning of that passage is clear. The 'local' Elves weren't there, they only found out what happened after the event. The Edain were involved, but 'much mingled with the Elves'? No.

    I'd say he was one of the main sources for any information whatsoever about the War of Wrath in Middle-Earth. Since the things Elves learned in Aman would mostly stay in Aman with them. We do ostensibly derive the Silmarillion from Bilbo's Red Book after all, which used sources in Rivendell.
    Again, Elrond and Elros were *not* Elves then. And in childhood Elves are much like Men and grow at about the same rate till they reach the "preservation" state, after which they grow in wisdom and power. Mentioned in many places, "Narn i hin Hurin" being one. And they were very much mature by that time to have made a choice of Kindred.
    I'm still not seeing any quotes. It doesn't matter that they weren't Elves then, neither of them was mortal then either, and those with the life of the Eldar didn't become fully physically mature until there were about 100 or so years old.

    Elrond did not have a comparable claim to the title. Gil-Galad was the son of Fingon, the elder in the House of Fingolfin. Simple primogeniture gives Elrond any claim only after Gil-galad's childless death.
    Way to miss the point, which was that after Gil-galad's death he didn't press his claim. You might want to ask yourself why.

    Anyway, those are just details discussions and we can argue for a very long time. It's as pointless to argue that Elrond was a Conan-barbarian fighter as it is to say that he was a benevolent healer who never held a sword in his life. As any great and significant epic character he could and had to be both a leader, a fighter, a healer, and a wise counsellor in different stages of his life.
    The key thing was that in the late Third Age he was known as a healer, so he wouldn't be going off hunting even so much as rabbits, much less Orcs. PJ's version of him in The Hobbit is the same sort of distortion as in the LOTR movies, and even less excusable because this time it's not in a prologue taking place thousands of years in the past.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Yes, healers were typically female, warriors were typically male but that allows exceptions both ways - both female warriors and males who don't fight.
    Wrong, the norm was males fight and women stayed safe this is actually coherent though the whole LOTR there were exceptions but very few, this is after all written in a time period were woman didn't take major roles in wars. So a Noldor male has an advantage in choosing role.

    Okay, so you obviously don't know what a herald's job is.
    True I don't know what Herald job is, but I do know Elrond became a Lord and took Gil-Galad's place as the leading Noldorian.

    That's not what it says at all.

    '...the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to them abstaining or refraining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood.'

    i.e. female Elves tended to be better healers because they avoided killing, not because they were female. To be great healers, male Elves would have to avoid killing in just the same way the female Elves did:

    'On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need.'

    In other words, you're wrong, there was no advantage to being male when it came to healing.
    You are wrong here, you are trying to classify Elrond when he is an exception of the rule.

    First off, he is a neri (male) he is also half-even that chose Elven immortality, he is the leading lord of the Noldor all his precedesors did some combat one way or another, he is a healer which is not common in elves also he probably took arms when needed so killing a band of orcs is not unlikely he did it.

    So you are wrong, Elf Lords like Elrond can and possibly do combat to protect their lands.
    Last edited by Al.; Jun 06 2013 at 05:56 PM.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Wrong, the norm was males fight and women stayed safe this is actually coherent though the whole LOTR there were exceptions but very few, this is after all written in a time period were woman didn't take major roles in wars. So a Noldor male has an advantage in choosing role.
    Not when that role is a healer, it meant avoiding regardless of whether they were male or female. And what's the advantage to the males of being expected to do all the fighting, exactly? Besides, Tolkien said that the women not fighting was more down to their temperament than lack of ability. Nowhere does he suggest that the women weren't allowed to fight, he even says they were a lot stronger relative to their menfolk than mortal women were.

    True I don't know what Herald job is, but I do know Elrond became a Lord and took Gil-Galad's place as the leading Noldorian.
    Maybe you'd better hush up then? A herald is like a diplomat, an ambassador - the sort of guy you send out under a flag of truce to negotiate, not someone who's involved in the fighting.

    You are wrong here, you are trying to classify Elrond when he is an exception of the rule.
    Why, just because PJ decided to turn him into an action hero? There's nothing in the books to make him an exception.

    First off, he is a neri (male) he is also half-even that chose Elven immortality, he is the leading lord of the Noldor all his precedesors did some combat one way or another, he is a healer which is not common in elves also he probably took arms when needed so killing a band of orcs is not unlikely he did it.
    He'd thrown his lot in with the Elves, that means he's counted as one wherever that matters. And in the books he had Glorfindel, Elladan and Elrohir (plus others!) to go out and kick butt on his behalf. Elrond's a scholar, first and foremost. Use your brain and try to think past the movies.

    So you are wrong, Elf Lords like Elrond can and possibly do combat to protect their lands.
    I'm not talking about Elf-lords in general, I'm talking about Elrond in particular, and you've got nothing except PJ's nonsense to go on.

 

 
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