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  1. #26

    Wink What you really need to know about the captain.

    Its not a Ferrari, its not a bug,
    Need a cappy in order to pug,
    Sometimes we heal, sometimes we buff,
    our DPS just isnt enough.

    I rez, I sprint, I have a ghost,
    I hope you enjoy reading this post,
    Cappies are awesome, dont get me wrong
    No group or raid will be as strong

    We mark the boss, and make you better,
    while we sit back enjoying the weather.
    When times get tough we "in harms way"
    Hell ya, cappy just saved the day.

    Creeps try to kill me all day long,
    but my buffs, and heals with aud are strong,
    When everyone is dead around in the land,
    Not the cappy, I have last stand.

    -Original by Pit
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  2. #27
    +Rep Pit. And you should put that in one of our stickies so it doesn't get lost.

    How do you submit stuff for the magazine? I'm going to PM Celestrata with it maybe it will show up somewhere.
    Last edited by Armitas; Dec 14 2012 at 05:57 PM.
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  3. #28
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    As far as DPS: we are dead last but it's significant enough where you won't feel too gimped at end-game for solo content. As far as groups, if you intend to contribute any meaningful damage the only classes you're gonna beat are the tanks and the RK (and the mini, if it's a hard enough instance where they're using no stance instead of Harmony. Harmony will easily also out-DPS us.)
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    There's several things wrong with this:
    1) This requires you to get the PvMP gear, which will actually make your overall healing weaker because it has less usefull stats than the PvE gear (it's sacficing them for audacity).
    2) Things need to be dying frequently enough for you to actually sustain a 6 second Rally Cry.
    3) With the RoR changes to HoH, I will heal circles around you as you DPS and let people in your group die. The age of LtC healing died with this expansion.
    OK, after this statement is clear to me that discussion with you is waste of time. So I am done with this.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    There's several things wrong with this:
    1) This requires you to get the PvMP gear, which will actually make your overall healing weaker because it has less usefull stats than the PvE gear (it's sacficing them for audacity).
    2) Things need to be dying frequently enough for you to actually sustain a 6 second Rally Cry.
    3) With the RoR changes to HoH, I will heal circles around you as you DPS and let people in your group die. The age of LtC healing died with this expansion.
    You're absolutely right, there's several things wrong with the 3 points in your post.

    1. The loss in tactical mastery is at worst a 1-3% loss in healing, whereas the potential of 6s cd on Rallying Cry is in a league of its own. I'd love to see anyone do more than 4-5k HPS sustained (granted, that's in HoH) in a skraid without 6s Rallying Cry.
    2. O rly? I think I know something about DB/PA and Valiant Strike you don't know.
    3. Apart from perhaps Icy Crevasse, you might want to rephrase that sentence:

    3) With the RoR changes to HoH, I will overheal circles around you as you DPS and keep your healer from falling asleep. LtC healing is as strong as ever
    EDIT: As for OP, I would say Captain sounds like the class for you, except you might want to give Halberds (especially 'Halberd of the Watch') a try
    Apart from Wardens I think Captains are one of the most stress-free to level, but they're also quite slow to level.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Dec 15 2012 at 04:59 AM.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    3. Apart from perhaps Icy Crevasse, you might want to rephrase that sentence:

    3) With the RoR changes to HoH, I will overheal circles around you as you DPS and keep your healer from falling asleep. LtC healing is as strong as ever
    So much this ^
    Content's too easy for HoH right now.
    Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Dec 15 2012 at 05:11 AM.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    1. The loss in tactical mastery is at worst a 1-3% loss in healing, whereas the potential of 6s cd on Rallying Cry is in a league of its own. I'd love to see anyone do more than 4-5k HPS sustained (granted, that's in HoH) in a skraid without 6s Rallying Cry.
    You're also shorting yourself vitality and/or morale, and if you have to pick up might/vitality/morale jewelry to compensate instead of might/crit jewelry, you're also shorting yourself crit. PvMP gear is badly understatted compared to everything else around it, and it needs to have even less stats than it has now IMO.

    Attempting to validate the loss of healing by citing skraids is laughable. Skraids are so easy that they can (and have) been 6 manned on level.

    Scaled raids, likewise, are also reaaaly easy.

    What about in ToO (when it was on level) and other real content? It's not as useful as you are making it out to be, and extremely situational at best. When you don't have RC there as a crutch, you have to make due with everything else.

    And that's exactly what the 6 second Rally Cry is - a crutch for captain's that don't know how to heal using the rest of their healing abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    2. O rly? I think I know something about DB/PA and Valiant Strike you don't know.
    Show me the math that you can sustain a 6 second rally cry without needing to have mob deaths.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Dec 15 2012 at 07:09 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    You're also shorting yourself vitality and/or morale, and if you have to pick up might/vitality/morale jewelry to compensate instead of might/crit jewelry, you're also shorting yourself crit. PvMP gear is badly understatted compared to everything else around it, and it needs to have even less stats than it has now IMO.
    The losses are plain and simply negligible IMO:

    Boots: lose 400-some tact mastery, gain 300 morale
    Leggings: lose 400-some tact mastery, gain 14 morale
    Chest: lose 100-some morale and 1200 finesse

    By using those three pieces you lose some tactical mastery, bits of power and a slice of Finesse. If that's what makes or breaks your Captain I'm sorry for you, but we're at least several Captains that have made it with the loss of stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Attempting to validate the loss of healing by citing skraids is laughable. Skraids are so easy that they can (and have) been 6 manned on level.

    Scaled raids, likewise, are also reaaaly easy.
    Oh right, stupid me, I simply forgot that I obviously should not attempt to validate anything on the endgame that we're currently doing and has done since middle of October. Worst of all, why would I even consider the low difficulty of skraids as an argument to use LtC rather than HoH overhealing in easy fights? What was I thinking?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    What about in ToO (when it was on level) and other real content? It's not as useful as you are making it out to be, and extremely situational at best. When you don't have RC there as a crutch, you have to make due with everything else.
    Yeah what about it? My Captain has 'Original Challenger of Saruman' title on the Evernight server and apart from 1-2 tries in HoH I've always used LtC, and used the 3 Perseverance pieces when they were introduced. If anything, the high DPS requirements make it a great advantage to be LtC traited, the little DPS we do is still useful in the big picture and the extra defeat events are very helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    And that's exactly what the 6 second Rally Cry is - a crutch for captain's that don't know how to heal using the rest of their healing abilities.
    Or inspire+WoC+valiant strike is a crutch for Captains that don't know how to heal using the strongest healing skill in their arsenal? BOOM Mind blown! No? hmm....

    Why is it that Captains with 6 second cooldown on Rallying Cry are banned from using other healing skills? My inspire/WoC/Valiant Strike don't grey out whenever I wear 3 or more Perseverance pieces, do yours?

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Show me the math that you can sustain a 6 second rally cry without needing to have mob deaths.
    Again, seeing as our current endgame content is skirmish raids with soldiers at our side, it's as simple as using CotW for Valiant Strike and 3GC+3Perseverance for Rallying Cry. I'll give you this however, that only works by using HoH. Funnily enough, it requires you to have a mob alive to keep on doing it

    Besides, keeping it up precisely every 6 seconds isn't the point. The point is that you can very often use it at least twice per 15 seconds (specially in skirms if you have PA targets legacy), which you obviously can't if you don't have 3 Perseverance. And seeing how Rallying Cry is beyond any doubt our strongest healing skill (it even heals power if you're correctly traited), why would anyone limit him/herself on the amount of times it can be used?
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Dec 15 2012 at 10:00 PM.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    The losses are plain and simply negligible IMO:

    Boots: lose 400-some tact mastery, gain 300 morale
    Leggings: lose 400-some tact mastery, gain 14 morale
    Chest: lose 100-some morale and 1200 finesse

    By using those three pieces you lose some tactical mastery, bits of power and a slice of Finesse. If that's what makes or breaks your Captain I'm sorry for you, but we're at least several Captains that have made it with the loss of stats.
    That's far from accurate my friend.... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Ws3X3p2cC01bVE

    Assuming that a GC/Perserverance mix is the 85 Perserverance chest, gloves, and helm to maximize the amount of tactical mastery and crit you get from the PvMP gear, and fill in the rest with the Gallant Commander set.....

    When compared against the Hytbold Healer armor (all six pieces), while you gain you gain 388 crit, you are down 342 might with tactical mastery even. And you also don't have Hytbold Healer's +5% OGH (which will allow you to exceed the OGH cap by 5%), and the Hytbold Healer 5 set bonus is better than the Gallant Commander 3 set bonus.

    So really, you are looking at a loss of 3420 Tactical Mastery + 5% OGH, which is a pretty significant loss of healing - but hey, you have a 6 second rally cry......

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Yeah what about it? My Captain has 'Original Challenger of Saruman' title on the Evernight server and apart from 1-2 tries in HoH I've always used LtC, and used the 3 Perseverance pieces when they were introduced. If anything, the high DPS requirements make it a great advantage to be LtC traited, the little DPS we do is still useful in the big picture and the extra defeat events are very helpful.
    And what about in the 3 mans? How well did you do when you PUGed out a T2 HM as a healer in LtC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Or inspire+WoC+valiant strike is a crutch for Captains that don't know how to heal using the strongest healing skill in their arsenal? BOOM Mind blown! No? hmm....

    Why is it that Captains with 6 second cooldown on Rallying Cry are banned from using other healing skills? My inspire/WoC/Valiant Strike don't grey out whenever I wear 3 or more Perseverance pieces, do yours?
    'Cause the 6 second rally cry is like the crack of the captain world. When it was there at 65, too many ignored the other healing skills (Inspire and WoC specifically) because the 6 second rally would carry them, and then we proceeded to have those captains faceplant it when it came time to heal in 3 mans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Besides, keeping it up precisely every 6 seconds isn't the point. The point is that you can very often use it at least twice per 15 seconds (specially in skirms if you have PA targets legacy), which you obviously can't if you don't have 3 Perseverance.
    Ignore skirms and focusing on real instances, you generally don't have enough kills in that time frame to make as good use out of RC as you are portraying it.

    Not to mention that someone without a 6 second rally cry isn't crippled healingwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    And seeing how Rallying Cry is beyond any doubt our strongest healing skill (it even heals power if you're correctly traited), why would anyone limit him/herself on the amount of times it can be used?
    Because you sacrifice too much for too little gain just to have the mystical 6 second Rally Cry.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    That's far from accurate my friend.... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Ws3X3p2cC01bVE

    Assuming that a GC/Perserverance mix is the 85 Perserverance chest, gloves, and helm to maximize the amount of tactical mastery and crit you get from the PvMP gear, and fill in the rest with the Gallant Commander set.....
    If you read my post you'd see that assumption doesn't hold, as I dont use neither gloves nor helm.
    Also, noone is forcing you to bring GC into the mix unless you want to cycle VS and RC, you could easily go with 3 Hytbold Healer and 3 Per for a healing build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    When compared against the Hytbold Healer armor (all six pieces), while you gain you gain 388 crit, you are down 342 might with tactical mastery even. And you also don't have Hytbold Healer's +5% OGH (which will allow you to exceed the OGH cap by 5%), and the Hytbold Healer 5 set bonus is better than the Gallant Commander 3 set bonus.

    So really, you are looking at a loss of 3420 Tactical Mastery + 5% OGH, which is a pretty significant loss of healing - but hey, you have a 6 second rally cry......
    Oh yeah how will I ever cope with that.
    3420 is about 3% extra to "your outgoing healing is increased by..." if you got good gear and then the extra 5% from hytbold healer set totalling 8% added to outgoing healing.
    For my Captain, that'd mean to go from ~47% to ~55%. As that number is added to base healing, it gives a total of 147% healing vs 155% healing, which makes the 8% extra outgoing healing a "whopping" 5.5% actual increase in healing.

    And again, no one is forcing you to completely ignore Hytbold set in a combo with Perseverance, 3HH3Per works fine as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    And what about in the 3 mans? How well did you do when you PUGed out a T2 HM as a healer in LtC?
    Ah yes lets talk about some other instances that are not endgame anymore.
    I did well, both as tank, DPS and healer, mostly because those instances are easy. Can we please talk about Sari Surma next? Grand Stairs? Or perhaps even Carn Dum? You're clearly not in the mood to talk about current endgame stuff, so we might as well go overboard in old instances.

    If you really can't talk about skraids and how unneccessary HoH is there, then at least look forward and talk about U9 - here we might even have situations where HoH is really good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    'Cause the 6 second rally cry is like the crack of the captain world. When it was there at 65, too many ignored the other healing skills (Inspire and WoC specifically) because the 6 second rally would carry them, and then we proceeded to have those captains faceplant it when it came time to heal in 3 mans.
    Yes, lets make something look bad by comparing it to drugs, that's always a sure winner.
    You're simply mistaken if you think good Captains would replace all other skills just because they have 6s cooldown on Rallying Cry - at least I'm not replacing anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Ignore skirms and focusing on real instances, you generally don't have enough kills in that time frame to make as good use out of RC as you are portraying it.

    Not to mention that someone without a 6 second rally cry isn't crippled healingwise.
    Why would I focus on real instances when we don't have any? How hard can that be for you to understand? Adapt to the fights, if you don't need much healing then don't trait HoH when you can trait LtC and help finish the fight faster.
    Do you also gear for high tactical mitigation when doing Prancing Pony skirmish raid because you might need tactical mitigation for a real instance?

    I've never said anyone that doesn't have 6s RC is crippled healingwise, both setups are plenty to heal skirmish raids.
    Remind you, I've never said anything bad about using HoH and Hytbold healer set, only that it is not needed for current content. On the other hand you're the one disagreeing with Galborion that 6s RC cd cannot give excellent healing - and that's where you're plain and simply wrong - at least for now, and I don't see that changing with BG and U9 instances.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    If you read my post you'd see that assumption doesn't hold, as I dont use neither gloves nor helm.
    Also, noone is forcing you to bring GC into the mix unless you want to cycle VS and RC, you could easily go with 3 Hytbold Healer and 3 Per for a healing build.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    And again, no one is forcing you to completely ignore Hytbold set in a combo with Perseverance, 3HH3Per works fine as well.
    You never explicity said what gear setup you were using, nor what you were comparing the Perserverance set against, so I took a stab in the dark and rolled a set combo with the other one you were talking about, inferring that you were rolling around in a GC/Perserverance build (which isn't all that great IMO).

    However, when combined with the three healer using the pieces you explicitly named, then the gap becomes a lot closer, down to 190 might and 1176 Finesse vs 776 crit and 338 Tactical Mastery, which works out to a loss of around 1500 tactical mastery, for enough crit to more than make up for it.

    As much as this irks me (because I must PvMP to push my PvE healing to the max), that is probably a better set up by the stats alone.

    And once again, whoever's doing itemization for the captains needs to be fired.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    You never explicity said what gear setup you were using, nor what you were comparing the Perserverance set against, so I took a stab in the dark and rolled a set combo with the other one you were talking about, inferring that you were rolling around in a GC/Perserverance build (which isn't all that great IMO).

    However, when combined with the three healer using the pieces you explicitly named, then the gap becomes a lot closer, down to 190 might and 1176 Finesse vs 776 crit and 338 Tactical Mastery, which works out to a loss of around 1500 tactical mastery, for enough crit to more than make up for it.

    As much as this irks me (because I must PvMP to push my PvE healing to the max), that is probably a better set up by the stats alone.

    And once again, whoever's doing itemization for the captains needs to be fired.
    Well I have been using 3GC/3Per, but that's only been when I wanted to cycle VS and RC in skirmish raids, it really need those 12 targets on RC to be worth it as it'll reset VS cooldown. For anything else, the GC 3-set does not provide enough compared to HH or even Menestaid.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    And seeing how Rallying Cry is beyond any doubt our strongest healing skill (it even heals power if you're correctly traited), why would anyone limit him/herself on the amount of times it can be used?
    Unless my math is off, Valiant Strike heals a lot more morale than Rallying Cry does. I'm not sure if more frequent uses of Rallying Cry will outbalance that, but I personally would much rather stick with a RC every 15 seconds and keep Valiant Strike up on the fellowship the whole fight, vs firing off maybe twice as many RCs, maybe not twice as many, depending on defeat responses generated, and being able to use Valiant Strike less than half of the time.As far as power, 15s RC plus Inspire seems to do a pretty good job of power restoring, don't really need that much more.
    Last edited by TinDragon; Dec 16 2012 at 04:06 AM.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Unless my math is off, Valiant Strike heals a lot more morale than Rallying Cry does. I'm not sure if more frequent uses of Rallying Cry will outbalance that, but I personally would much rather stick with a RC every 15 seconds and keep Valiant Strike up on the fellowship the whole fight, vs firing off maybe twice as many RCs, maybe not twice as many, depending on defeat responses generated, and being able to use Valiant Strike less than half of the time.As far as power, 15s RC plus Inspire seems to do a pretty good job of power restoring, don't really need that much more.
    I guess you got a point there, at least to some extent. Valiant Strike is stronger through the HoT, whereas RC will be stronger if you can fire it enough times - you gain almost nothing by firing VS more often that the duration of the HoT, whereas most of the healing from RC is direct.

    In HoH you will have VS at least half the time no matter what setup you use. So I guess it'd be a question of which setup is the best for certain situations:
    1. 3Perseverance+3HH: Valiant Strike active half the time, +5%OGH, 6s RC cd
    2. 3Perseverance+3GC: Valiant Strike active (pretty much) all the time, 6s RC cd
    3. 5-6HH: Valiant Strike active all the time, +5%OGH, 15s RC cd

    Of those 3, I'd still consider 2. to be strongest for HoH skirmraid healing and 1. or 3. to be strongest for 3-mans. For 6 mans, it highly depends on the instance.

    Whether you heal enough power highly depends on whether you got an LM and how much power your fellowship uses. Lets just say I have some hungry Champions and Hunters in my kinship

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    I guess you got a point there, at least to some extent. Valiant Strike is stronger through the HoT, whereas RC will be stronger if you can fire it enough times - you gain almost nothing by firing VS more often that the duration of the HoT, whereas most of the healing from RC is direct.

    In HoH you will have VS at least half the time no matter what setup you use. So I guess it'd be a question of which setup is the best for certain situations:
    1. 3Perseverance+3HH: Valiant Strike active half the time, +5%OGH, 6s RC cd
    2. 3Perseverance+3GC: Valiant Strike active (pretty much) all the time, 6s RC cd
    3. 5-6HH: Valiant Strike active all the time, +5%OGH, 15s RC cd

    Of those 3, I'd still consider 2. to be strongest for HoH skirmraid healing and 1. or 3. to be strongest for 3-mans. For 6 mans, it highly depends on the instance.

    Whether you heal enough power highly depends on whether you got an LM and how much power your fellowship uses. Lets just say I have some hungry Champions and Hunters in my kinship
    The real choices are 1 and 3 IMO.

    2's not worth condsidering - you're going to sacrifice at least 30-40 might per piece of armor (completely ignoring +might set bonuses from Hytbold Healer) to get something that's a pretty one trick pony. Without enough mobs dying to fuel it, you've sacrificed much for little gain.

    Considering the 3 man instances that are going live in 2 days, the Erebor cluster are going to be pretty sparse, same with WPs (that's more finesse anyway), although a 6 second rally cry may be useful in the first half of SH T2 HM - provided you have enough AE DPS to melt the horde of minions before the bosses come.

    As far as 6 mans go, we're not going to need the extra healing because a primary healer will be there (and thus most of this discussion is moot). I would imagine that HH or P/HH is strong enough to main heal the six mans (would lean towards the latter over the former because of the RC/VS + Crit defence changes) - it will be something that some of the captains that can experiment with kin groups to try out, and check back. I wouldn't want to experiment with that on PUGs because PUGs are well..... PUGs.

    BG is a mixed blessing - 6 second RC is awesome for the Gauntlet, wasted on all three boss fights, and so so on the trash between the bosses.

    The real wild card with this are the crit defence changes, since the crit isn't going to be negated now.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  16. #41
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    Captain can do decent DPS, good buffing, good at solo stuff (revealing mark enables ability to solo most bosses). Great, UNIQUE healing from captains (no inductions on any healing skills). Captains also can make the difference between a raid being successful and a raid wiping over and over. Dunedain shield is invaluable, Oathbreakers can make a huge difference, In Harms Way and Last stand can save a raid from wiping time and time again. If you want to be the one charged with a lot of responsibility for an often thankless job, then Captain is for you. But you'll find it very rewarding knowing that you've saved your raid.
    Evernight:
    Ellomir - Captain
    Snowbourn:
    Radni - Loremaster

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaphael View Post
    You really aren't thinking this through. First of all, discount the Capstone Tales. Minstrels never use those. Then think about the actual mechanics of each class's buffs as opposed to just the numbers on paper. Captains can give more massive and lasting max morale, incoming damage, outgoing damage, and attack duration buffs than a Minstrel all at the same time. A Minstrel can only give two of those at once and for a smaller amount than what a Captain can give, plus the anthem buffs usually last about ten seconds before they are consumed by a Coda, if even that. When I heal on my Minstrel in a hard raid I am usually burning Anthem of the Second Age and Anthem of Composure as Coda fodder in order to increase my healing ability and regen power. Not buffing.
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