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  1. #1
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    MINSTREL DPS ROTATION: What is the best for RoR?

    Hello,
    I just wanted to start a thread that begins to discuss the best rotations for DPS Minis in this new expansion. Please post rotations that are used in War-speech "stance".

    I am knew to Minis but having trouble finding a solid DPS rotation. Any thoughts?

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    Depends on what you're killing, specifically how many targets you're trying to kill and/or what the morale of the thing(s) you're trying to kill is. Typically I open with Minor Ballad -> Orome -> Minor Ballad -> Call to Fate -> Minor Ballad -> Piercing Cry -> Cry of the Valar -> Anthem of the Third Age -> Orome -> Call to Fate -> Call of the Second Age -> Coda, then repeat. I will throw Echoes of Battle on my target if my target is a couple levels higher than me, but I have the legacy for reducing the resist rating on my warspeech skills on my weapon so I don't personally use Echoes of Battle too often. If you're trying to kill multiple mobs at once you can splash in your AOEs sooner but on a single target, normal mob that's the order I almost always do things.

    Edit: forgot about Cry of the Wizards, depending on if I need to slow my target right away to kite it or not I'll either put it in somewhere at the very beginning or if I don't need to kite I'll put it in right after the second Call to Fate.

    Edit again: I think that opening with Call to Fate and then Ballad -> Orome -> Ballad -> Piercing Cry -> ballad -> Anthem of the Third Age -> Call to Fate -> Orome -> Cry of the Wizards -> Cry of the Valar -> Call of the Second Age -> Call to fate -> Coda might be better, the reduction in mitigation from Orome doesn't seem significant enough to prioritize it before Call to Fate, and using a ballad before Call to Fate seems like it might lower your DPS too now that I think about it, but the thing with minstrel DPS is that it's just kind of "use all of your skills when you can" once you get into a fight. It doesn't really seem like any rotation in particular will offer you a significant difference over the other, but I haven't parsed anything and quite frankly I don't really care if one option is slightly more DPS than the other as long as the thing I am killing dies in a reasonable amount of time.
    Last edited by Bombadil411; Dec 10 2012 at 08:44 PM.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Bombadil411 View Post
    but the thing with minstrel DPS is that it's just kind of "use all of your skills when you can" once you get into a fight. It doesn't really seem like any rotation in particular will offer you a significant difference over the other, but I haven't parsed anything and quite frankly I don't really care if one option is slightly more DPS than the other as long as the thing I am killing dies in a reasonable amount of time.
    What this guy said. I have never had a rotation and i adjust based on the situation. The one thing most dps ministrels overlook is that chord/SoS is an immediate skill. That being said, use call of second age (really long animation) later in your rotation after you most likely have taken some damage and follow it with chord/SoS to cancel the animation and heal yourself so you don't lose dps time. Hope this helps!
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  4. #4
    This is my favorite dps rotation:

    I like to start with Timeless echoes of battle, then minor ballad-perfect ballad-minor ballad to get anthems up. Hit Anthem of the Third Age, then Call of Orome, Cry of the Valar, Cry of the Wizards, Call to Fate, Call of the Second Age. Upon completion of all 5 calls, hit the coda, which will refresh Call of the Second Age. Hit that again, and it's the rare enemy that will still be alive.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowdoc View Post
    This is my favorite dps rotation:

    I like to start with Timeless echoes of battle, then minor ballad-perfect ballad-minor ballad to get anthems up. Hit Anthem of the Third Age, then Call of Orome, Cry of the Valar, Cry of the Wizards, Call to Fate, Call of the Second Age. Upon completion of all 5 calls, hit the coda, which will refresh Call of the Second Age. Hit that again, and it's the rare enemy that will still be alive.
    Wow, just like me about the ballad part *handshake*

    This is my dps rotation:

    - Timeless Echoes of Battle
    - Minor - Perfect - Minor to quickly build 3 ballad buffs. May throw a Piercing Cry after Minor - Perfect to stun mob.
    - Anthem of War which +10% Tactical Damage from Legacy. It gives stronger boost than Anthem of the Third Age, applies for all skills, and increase critical chance for Coda.
    - Call of Orome + Call to Fate. Critical may even finish the mob before Coda
    - (Addition for or multiple mobs) Cry of the Wizard + Cry of the Valar + Call to the Second Age
    - Finish with Coda of Fury

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bombadil411 View Post
    Edit again: I think that opening with Call to Fate and then Ballad -> Orome -> Ballad -> Piercing Cry -> ballad -> Anthem of the Third Age -> Call to Fate -> Orome -> Cry of the Wizards -> Cry of the Valar -> Call of the Second Age -> Call to fate -> Coda might be better, the reduction in mitigation from Orome doesn't seem significant enough to prioritize it before Call to Fate, and using a ballad before Call to Fate seems like it might lower your DPS too now that I think about it, but the thing with minstrel DPS is that it's just kind of "use all of your skills when you can" once you get into a fight. It doesn't really seem like any rotation in particular will offer you a significant difference over the other, but I haven't parsed anything and quite frankly I don't really care if one option is slightly more DPS than the other as long as the thing I am killing dies in a reasonable amount of time.
    My first claim in threads like these, is that there is really no wrong answer. Do what works for you. However, the way you worded the part I bolded, I think needs further explanation. While I agree that DPS will occur if you mash buttons, there is method to the order, and you can vary the battle outcome based on which you choose first.

    This isn't an argument that needs defending, I'm just offering the opposite of that statement as a valid playstyle as well.

    First I start out with minor ballad. Always. This is an immediate +7% to all DPS skills. Starting out with anything else automatically effects your DPS in a negative way. (can you start out with anything else and still succeed? Yes, absolutely you can... but there is a difference in using skills in different orders).

    Second, echoes of battle. why? Debuffs the mob with song and cry resist rating AND puts a DOT on the mob. The dot is DPS. The debuff is DPS. If the mob resists your attach, your DPS is 0. In longer fights, the EoB can add a fair amount of DPS, especially if you get in trouble and need to kite or if you fear a mob (the EoB will still hit them as long as they don't run out of range).

    Third, minor ballad. Why? I don't like to stack the same ballad. You waste time waiting on the CD, but since I cast EoB after my first minor, the second minor is already up. Now I have +14% to my DPS that I wouldn' have if I had chosen a different rotation.

    Fourth, Call of Orome. Why? Similar to above, I need another skill in between my ballads so I can maximize DPS and this one also debuffs the mob against my attack. This debuffs the mob towards light damage. Some of our best skills are light damage. Its also an AoE and it can crit pretty high for a skill with such a short CD. Casting this early in the rotation allows for it to be up soon if the mob still lives.

    Fifth, minor ballad. Why? It should be off CD again since I cast Orome. This now gets me to +21% tactical damage.

    Sixth, usually, Anthem of War. Why? Because it adds some nice butter to the skills I'm about to use next.

    -----------------------------------

    So, with your example, if you start out with call to fate, you are going to be doing 21% less damage on a mob that isn't debuffed than I will do when I cast my call to fate.

    Are either of us right? nope. I'm not correcting your strat, but the semantics don't add up when you say it doesn't matter when you cast each skill.

    -----------------------------------

    From here on out it depends what I'm fighting. For groups of mobs I very quickly hit:

    Second Age
    Cry of the valor (comes with a HoT, use this if damaged, again, rotation matters).
    Cry of the wizard (comes with a slow, useful in situations, planning in rotation helps here as well).
    Call of the second age (comes with a speed boost).

    Mobs are usually dead here. But if needed, I follow with single target skills like:

    Call to fate (which does enourmous damage with that 21% buff I gave it earlier.

    Piercing cry is tempting to open with, but its a devastating interrupt to have in your back pocket for later in the fight. (again, it matters what you are fighting. If the mobs are prone to induct, I will wait on using this till it becomes more useful... i.e. when the mob inducts, which is usually AFTER I've fully buffed myself and debuffed the mob.)

    If, for some reason, the mob is still alive... coda.

    Again, there is no right way. I don't follow this every fight either... but I do disagree that there isn't a reason to use skills in a certain order. I can see a clear, 21% distinction among many other factors based on when you use skills.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by hucklebarry View Post
    ...
    I don't even know where to begin to make my case so I'm just going to agree to disagree. Any time you spend ramping up your damage is time wasted where larger hitting skills are available and not used. You can spend one second using a ballad to increase your DPS by 7% but if you use Call to Fate one second sooner it will be available again one second sooner. If ballads did the same amount of damage as Call to Fate AND provided a buff to your damage they would be the obvious choice to use first, but regardless of which you do first right now your DPS increase is only going to be marginal at best and it will all be based on lucky crits. I encourage you to try a couple of different rotations, each starting with ballad, orome, and call to fate and you will notice what I am talking about. Think about it, you could open with a ballad to give yourself +7% damage to your first Call to Fate but Call to Fate easily does 7% more damage than a ballad does, and even more than that when you crit. Not to mention the fact that if you open with Call to Fate your Call to Fate will already have cooled down for one second while you use your first ballad, meaning you can use it again 10% sooner. If you're trying to build up your ballads to 21% you could already have your Call to Fate halfway on cooldown and could be using it again when you have the buffs anyway.

    Orome's debuff adds about as much damage as a single ballad (7%, tested this on a dummy in Snowbourn, could be different elsewhere), so Ballad -> Orome -> Ballad -> Call to Fate would essentially be hitting with the strength of three ballads but that would mean Call to Fate has been available and not used for slightly less than 3 seconds, meaning it will take 25% longer to have the skill available again. However, this is based on a model where not a single skill crits, primarily because I do not like to base my DPS on the assumption that any skill will crit. That being said, if you increase your base damage by 21% that is going to equate to a 31% harder critical. Even with captain buffs and the Call to Fate capstone you are more likely to not crit than crit though. All that being said is why my rotation on a single normal or signature mob now is Call to Fate -> Ballad -> Orome -> Ballad -> Piercing Cry -> Ballad -> Anthem of the Third Age -> Cry of the Wizards -> Cry of the Valar -> Call to Fate -> Orome -> Call of the Second Age -> Coda. Anything bigger and it becomes different though.

    I also feel it's worth noting that Anthem of War is an inferior skill to use over Anthem of the Third Age if you're high enough to have both of them because Anthem of the Third Age offers a 10% increase to damage on your calls AND resets the cooldown of one of our most powerful skills. Also, Echoes of Battle is common damage (with the instrument I use, battle-singer) and only offers an advantage over having used one ballad after maybe 15 seconds. If it's an incredibly long fight though you should wait until you have all three ballad buffs up to use it because the damage it does remains increased regardless of whether or not you use coda. I do not use it on landscape mobs because I have the legacy on my weapon that reduces resist chance as much as EoB does and I also have 3k finesse.
    Last edited by Bombadil411; Dec 15 2012 at 08:02 PM.
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  8. #8
    Yah if we are talking single normal mobs then it really doesn't matter as most will die in under 10 seconds so even if you increase your DPS by 10% by following a particular order it means they will die in 9 seconds as opposed to 10. You are not likely to notice this. Just use you big hitters (CoO, CoW, CtF, CoSA) somewhere in there and the mob will die very fast.

    For groups of mobs or for mobs higher than normal, you will want to ramp up first by using minor ballad/CoO/TEoB/AotTA and/or AoW. Then use your heavy hitters. Since these fights will last longer, like say 1 minute an increase in DPS 10% or more will be more noticeable.

  9. #9
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    I have been playing around with different rotations recently. I didn't use damage-buffing anthems in my tests, so it was only the actual skill rotation that made the difference. I did these experiments in Duo Tier 3 Skirmishes with an OP guardian "tanking".

    At first, I went with the lazy version:

    - Ballads: Minor-Perfect-Minor. Simple way to get some buffs up.
    - Orome, Call to Fate, Cry of the Valar, Cry of the Wizards, Call of the Second age. I saved Piercing Cry for interrupts.
    - Orome and Call to Fate were often usable again at this point, so I reused those.
    - Finish with Coda.
    - Ballads again: Minor-Perfect-Minor.
    - Coda.
    - Restart from the first point, most cooldowns should be off.
    - (If there's need for self-heals at any point, use Chord of Salvation + Soliloquy of Spirit in rapid succession. If they're on cooldown, use pots. Induction heals are useless due to setbacks and interrupts.)

    DPS with this rotation was equal to OP guardian in question. For the record, he has full Hytbold set (the OP set) and an AOE-focused level 85 second age two-hander. He kept aggro most of the time - only barely though, mobs were constantly turning to my direction after big crits. Then I changed the rotation slightly:

    - First round: Minor Ballad, Call of Orome, Minor Ballad, Call to fate, Minor Ballad...
    - Cry of the Valar, Cry of the Wizards, Call of the Second Age. Again, Piercing Cry saved for interrupts.
    - Orome and Call to Fate again, as they're nearly off from cooldown. If not, fill in with another Minor Ballad before them.
    - Finish the first round with Coda.
    - Due to cooldowns, starting over isn't possible quite yet, so I simply did Minor-Perfect-Minor-Coda here.
    - Now it all starts again from the first point.
    - For self-healing, look above.

    Any difference? Even without looking at the numbers in Combat Analysis, difference was very easily noticeable. I was getting aggro clearly more often. Based on raw numbers, my overall DPS increased by roughly 10% with the change of rotation, and it was actually higher than what the OP guardian could do. Which one of us was tanking was depending on situation; with encounters (single target), it was me playing "tankstrel", while in AOE situations most of the mobs were beating the guardian.

    Note that I left the anthems out intentionally. I don't always use them anyway, as the mobs will die even without them. We do quite a lot of those T3 Duo skirmishes to get some "easy" relics, medallions and an occasional crystal, and quite often I use Anthem of the Free Peoples to help out the guardian through in-combat regens instead of going for dps-buffing ones.

    This test was based on only about half dozen random skirmishes per rotation, but should still give a clue. For me, the change worked out nicely, though it doesn't really matter in the end. Usually the game isn't a race against time anyway, especially in scenarios where minstrels are doing the dps... :P

    My motto is kinda along the lines of "better safe than sorry" though. Even while dps'ing, I'm always watching the green bars of my fellowship. Switching to some kind of mediocre healer needs just one click (toggle WS off). I end up doing this quite often actually, so it's not really reasonable to even try to figure out perfect rotations for fellowship playing. You'll get more cheers and thanks from others by being able to save the day with heals than trying to tank the mobs yourself.

    For solo play, basics are very simple of course: Get the ballad buffs up, with either suggested order, and you're good to go with mashing the big skill buttons. It's quite solid even without getting too tricky with anthems. (Anthem of Composure is my favourite in long fights - or constant fighting, where you pull the next mobs right after killing the previous - though. Use that before Coda and you'll never run out of power...)
    Last edited by Elaida; Dec 17 2012 at 07:27 AM.
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  10. #10
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    I hate strings of block quotes so I just edited out the stuff I'm not going to respond to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bombadil411 View Post
    I'm just going to agree to disagree.

    If ballads did the same amount of damage as Call to Fate AND provided a buff to your damage they would be the obvious choice to use first

    I encourage you to try a couple of different rotations

    However, this is based on a model where not a single skill crits, primarily because I do not like to base my DPS on the assumption that any skill will crit.

    Also, Echoes of Battle is common damage (with the instrument I use, battle-singer)
    Agreed... we disagree

    My ballads crit for about 1.5k... and they provide DPS buffs.

    I have tried different rotations which is why I felt compelled to answer the OP. As I said in my original response... I'm not correcting your approach, I'm stating that rotation DOES matter... and it does. You seem to be stuck to a single 'correct' answer. I don't believe such a thing exists. Playstyle, gear, traits, skill,etc... all these things should reflect in what rotation you use. Simply saying, "Anthem of the Third Age is better" is pigeon holing an awful lot of circumstances without any ideas into the variables around other people.

    You should factor in crits when you are DPSing (and even healing). Its where the mini's strength really lies. And that just further proves my original claims that 1. there is no 'right' way, and 2. rotation matters (as long you understand why and build around it). You carte blanche ignore crits but then question another who heavily depends on and enjoys great success from them. If you have a "safe" build that works for you... great! But you need to understand that there are others who build and play differently... and they have fantastic success in playing differently than you.

    If your EoB doesn't get beleriand or a different damage type from your instrument, ask a friendly woodworker to craft you a better instrument. If you are on Brandywine I'd be happy to craft you a critted set.

    This is the most important thing to read: If what you are doing works great for you... you shouldn't change a thing. I'm not suggesting that you should change anything at all. But in a public forum, I do want the newer players to know that there is method to the madness. Minstrel skills have more utility than causing damage. EVERYONE should try out different methods and stick with works best for them. But also, while we are talking shop... I do have plenty of my own opinions, as you have seen

  11. #11
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    Well partner typically I open up with the 3 ballads to get the cry and call bonus's ...then timeless echoes and call of orome...then piercing cry call to fate cay of the valar and coda of fury....that rotation is typically for the beginning of group play...call of the second age I do not typically use unless i am close enough...for single play I start out with timeless echoes call of orome and then piercing cry hoping for the stun..then it is the three ballads while backing up then call to fate cry of wzards cry of the valar call of the second age because the mob is now close enough and thn coda...I would also add that typically in group play i hit antem of war or prowess and the next round of ballads and the next composure...I am sure that there ar ebetter methods but that is what I go with

  12. #12
    I agree with huckleberry here, though my rotation is slightly different. I tested my numbers on both a training dummy and on The Warden in DG.

    My rotation is now as follows:
    Minor Ballad -> Call of Orome -> Minor Ballad -> Call to Fate -> Minor Ballad -> (Echoes of Battle or Heralds Strike or Piercing Cry)* -> Cry of the Wizards -> Coda
    Minor Ballad -> Call of Orome -> Minor Ballad -> Call to Fate -> Call of the Second Age -> Coda
    Minor Ballad -> Call of Orome -> Minor Ballad -> Call to Fate -> Heralds Strike -> Anthem of Composure -> Coda

    * = First time in the fight, Echoes of Battle. Piercing cry is my preference in later stages, unless I need to save it for interrupting.

    Note - I trait for the extra 100% herald strike damage which brings it about on par as Call of Orome.

    I tried adding in various anthems here and there, but found that their benefit was negligible. So I stuck to using the Power restoration of Anthem of Composure. This rotation gets me up to 1.5k dps on The Warden before any fears.

 

 

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