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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    This sounds like a pretty good idea. I would propose one modification:

    Add a "Plant Banner" skill. This will plant a banner with the same aura as the currently equipped armaments. It will also dismiss your herald. Thus captains who prefer banners would have the same functionality as before, just with a new itemization.
    I like this idea but my idea is: Captain's have the choice which Armaments they use while not need to stick to one Aura. Plant Banner skill sounds great, I'm going to update this.

    EDIT: Just updated it, is this what you mean or is this what would get a vote from every Captain?
    Last edited by Hibbit; Dec 08 2012 at 11:58 AM.
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  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbit View Post
    I like this idea but my idea is: Captain's have the choice which Armaments they use while not need to stick to one Aura. Plant Banner skill sounds great, I'm going to update this.

    EDIT: Just updated it, is this what you mean or is this what would get a vote from every Captain?
    Sorry, I misunderstood.

    I had thought you meant you wanted to replace all the herald summoning skills with a single skill that summons a different herald depending on which armament you have equipped. (i.e. "Riddermark Reinforced Commoner Armament of Hope" would make your "Summon Herald" skill summon a Herald of Hope).

    Right now I have 3 banners, 1 armament, and 2 herald summoning skills on my quickslot bars, and was thinking that they could be replaced with 4 armaments, 1 summoning skill, and 1 plant banner skill. Same diff, I guess.

    (off topic: man this website sucks.)
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
    Maedhric 100 Captain, Nunion 93 Champion, Taraviel 85 Minstrel, etc...

  3. #28
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    Easy solution to fears of losing heralds:

    Keep our banners, Hope Victory War and Defense.

    Turn heralds into skills, nix armaments but buff their stats sure, and give the heralds different buffs, a la bannerguards. Bannerguards buff evade/resist, armor, or finesse (in practice). That still leaves plenty of auras for them to have like a small HoT, small PoT, crit, block, parry, mastery, incoming healing. Hell I don't much care if they poach from bannerguards, give em finesse buffs. Plenty of stats to buff that would make them unique. Plus you got archer who wouldnt necessarily have an aura.

    So you have your own standard, and you have heralds. Thats a straight up buff, but I don't think it's too over the top. If you lose your herald, oh well you're back to where you were before the herald overhaul. You lost a little potency like an LM losing a pet.

    Yes dietl, these forums do suck. I've had to make it a habit to ctrl+A ctrl+C before I hit post
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  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    Unlike our heralds we still exist when the group goes away.
    Yes, and you can still play the game with reasonable success when the group goes away.

    I like the idea that the Captain can be made better by a group. I think it's a unique mechanic that defines the class, and I'm absolutely not interested in any changes that will do away with it.

    If anything, I'd like to get rid of the stupid herald, and keep an improved standard (I can live without the measly damage, poor pathing AI, and the extra lag). This way the "fellowship-brother" mechanic will truly be reserved for group play.
    Last edited by Bezmer; Dec 10 2012 at 12:38 PM.
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    Easy solution to fears of losing heralds:

    Keep our banners, Hope Victory War and Defense.

    Turn heralds into skills, nix armaments but buff their stats sure, and give the heralds different buffs, a la bannerguards. Bannerguards buff evade/resist, armor, or finesse (in practice). That still leaves plenty of auras for them to have like a small HoT, small PoT, crit, block, parry, mastery, incoming healing. Hell I don't much care if they poach from bannerguards, give em finesse buffs. Plenty of stats to buff that would make them unique. Plus you got archer who wouldnt necessarily have an aura.

    So you have your own standard, and you have heralds. Thats a straight up buff, but I don't think it's too over the top. If you lose your herald, oh well you're back to where you were before the herald overhaul. You lost a little potency like an LM losing a pet.
    This may work. Also, I'd happily trade all their DPS skills for extra buffs/auras. I never understood how one could carry around a huge flag _and_ swing a sword anyway (yes, I'm aware you can currently instruct the herald to sit behind you and do nothing, that's not the point).
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    Yes, and you can still play the game with reasonable success when the group goes away.

    I like the idea that the Captain can be made better by a group.
    I don't want "reasonable" success. I want a polished and fully developed class.

    It is the group that is made better by the captain. I don't believe we are intended to be poor outside the group, instead I believe that we are bound to mediocrity because of our equation. Captain power = (individual potential + Group buffs). Captain power is equal to "champ" power so long as individual potential remains poor.

    When there is no group (captain power = poor individual potential). Our equation works fine in a world where there are always groups, however in the increasingly solo focused game groups are not always available...especially in PVP.

    I belive that our class should be polished and complete for both aspects of the game, the solo experience and the grouped experience. Having a class that is built for 1 half of the game and poorly developed for the other half is poor design.
    Last edited by Armitas; Dec 10 2012 at 02:20 PM.
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  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    I don't want "reasonable" success. I want a polished and fully developed class.

    It is the group that is made better by the captain. I don't believe we are intended to be poor outside the group, instead I believe that we are bound to mediocrity because of our equation.
    The fact that a group makes a captain better doesn't mean he should (or, indeed, is) poor or mediocre outside of one. All it means is that the captain is enhanced individually by being in a group.

    Also, I specifically said that I like this aspect because of its uniqueness. The fact that the group is made better than the captain is pretty trite. In a way, any group is made better by any player, that's why people group.

    I belive that our class should be polished and complete for both aspects of the game, the solo experience and the grouped experience. Having a class that is built for 1 half of the game and poorly developed for the other half is poor design.
    This is correct. But just because a group would enable "fellowship brother" buffs doesn't mean that the class is necessarily poorly developed for the solo experience. For example, you can easily make fellowship-brother only castable on players, and pets strictly limited to solo mode. This is giving you a distinctly different experience while not necessarily hurting any phase of the game.
    Last edited by Bezmer; Dec 10 2012 at 03:30 PM.
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

  8. #33
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    I think the best solution with the herald is to integrate them into the skirmish system, so we have another 4 tabs for skirmish traits, but each tab is hardwired to the role of the herald with the ultimate as the herald buff, or a captain archer ultimate.

    We would have to lose the herald improvements from all the traits to keep this balanced (since a skirmish soldier is quite a bit more powerful than a herald/archer is), but if done right, the new herald should be a better ally than the current one.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Dec 10 2012 at 03:25 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I think the best solution with the herald is to integrate them into the skirmish system, so we have another 4 tabs for skirmish traits, but each tab is hardwired to the role of the herald with the ultimate as the herald buff, or an captain archer ultimate.

    We would have to lose the herald improvements from all the traits to keep this balanced (since a skirmish soldier is quite a bit more powerful than a herald/archer is), but if done right, the new herald should be a better ally than the current one.
    Yes, I thought about this as well. The idea of havign a levelable soldier will add a whole new aspect to the captain game. On the other hand, given that a lot of the skirmish soldier progress is tied to expansions, this seems like a huge leap for Turbine -- so not sure if it's realistic to expect this.

    But I can easily see keeping the standards pretty much as they are, and giving captains the ability to summon a Bannerguard, Herbalist, Warrior, or Archer to their side as an ally -- or something along these lines.

    The main problem is the AI of the skirmish soldiers is so hopeless, that I cringe at the though of having a warrior instead of a herald of war.
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    Yes, I thought about this as well. The idea of havign a levelable soldier will add a whole new aspect to the captain game. On the other hand, given that a lot of the skirmish soldier progress is tied to expansions, this seems like a huge leap for Turbine -- so not sure if it's realistic to expect this.

    But I can easily see keeping the standards pretty much as they are, and giving captains the ability to summon a Bannerguard, Herbalist, Warrior, or Archer to their side as an ally -- or something along these lines.

    The main problem is the AI of the skirmish soldiers is so hopeless, that I cringe at the though of having a warrior instead of a herald of war.
    AI patterns are the exact same for the heralds and the warriors as far as I can tell, it's just that the warrior is hardwired to aggressive with assist turned off. If you rig it so this new herald is controlled by that same bar, many of the complaints about the skirmish soldier melee AI will vanish.

    Rehasing what's on http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...35#post6520735 to keep this thread going.......

    Here's how I see this working:
    • All armaments no longer affect herald appearance, and no longer grant the herald armor. This item is purchasable at the class trainer, and allows you to summon the herald or archer. All existing armaments would be converted to this new item, and all of the tailoring armament recipes would be removed.
    • Loyalty and Precise Ally are scrapped for different captian traits
    • Master of War loses the existing herald bonuses, but allows the summoning of heralds/archer and skirmish soldiers in combat with a reduced induction for the heralds/archer.
    • Appearances are handled by the skirmish system.
    • Role traits are hardwired to be Herald of War, Herald of Hope, Herald of Victory, or Captain's Archer (which is different from the skirmish archer). All roles use the following table to determine damage type:
      Captain Herald/Archer
      Beleriand Beleriand
      Beleriand + Stuff Beleriand
      Westernesse Westernesse
      Westernesse + Stuff Westernesse
      Ancient Dwarf Ancient Dwarf
      Ancient Dwarf + Stuff Ancient Dwarf
      Everything Else Common
    • Tabs are initially populated with the existing skills that auto level, each skill corresponds with skill spot 1-3 on the current herald/archer bar.
    • Ultimates are hard wired to be the various banners for the heralds, and an archer DPS related passive - which all autoscale.
    • Skills can be swapped out for skirmish soldier skills following:
      • Herald of War can use warrior or banner guard skills
      • Herald of Hope can use herbalist or banner guard skills
      • Herald of Victory can use protector or banner guard skills
      • Captain's Archer can use archer skills
    • Rank 1 of the trainings for Tactical Mastery, Physical Mastery, Heavy Armor, and Finesse are granted with the Herald of War
    • Rank 1 of the training for Critical Rating and Medium Armor are granted with the archer skill purchase.
    • Ranks of the trainings for Tactical Mastery, Physical Mastery, Heavy Armor, Medium Armor, Finesse, and Critical Rating can be purchased from the Captain Trainer, as long as captain level >= level displayed on the trait.
    • Each tab pre-populates with the following trainings:
      • Herald of War, Herald of Hope, and Herald of Vicotry: Heavy Armor, Physical Mastery, Tactical Mastery, Finesse
      • Captain's Archer: Physical Mastery, Critical Rating, Finesse, Medium Armor
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Dec 10 2012 at 04:21 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    The fact that a group makes a captain better doesn't mean he should (or, indeed, is) poor or mediocre outside of one.


    This is correct. But just because a group would enable "fellowship brother" buffs doesn't mean that the class is necessarily poorly developed for the solo experience. For example, you can easily make fellowship-brother only castable on players, and pets strictly limited to solo mode. This is giving you a distinctly different experience while not necessarily hurting any phase of the game.
    That one issue is not what makes us poorly developed solo, it's many things. Things that are readily seen with a step into the moors solo, and the peer reviewed list agrees.*

    We are poor, the equation necessitates it. If we were equal to a champ in individual power, plus we had the same group buffs we would be over powered. Every one in the group needs to feel equally helpful. If we can do the job of a dps class and provide all those buffs and heals then it will make the other classes feel incomplete and poorly developed. A feeling in direct parallel to what happens to the captain without a group.

    I am not sure I understand your suggestion completely but if your suggesting we allow the potential to subtract from "group buffs" and add to "individual power" then yeah I agree, that's the only way we can do it. At the end of the day champ power and captain power must remain equal and the math keeps it that way. I made a thread a week ago about adding a way to do that. Giving us the capacity to shift that equation one way or the other is the first step in developing our individual potential.

    *there are ways to win in the moors for those with the patience to beat it out of the captain, but comparatively it is accurate.
    Last edited by Armitas; Dec 10 2012 at 04:54 PM.
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  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    I am not sure I understand your suggestion completely but if your suggesting we allow the potential to subtract from "group buffs" and add to "individual power" then yeah I agree, thats the only way we can do it. At the end of it champ power and captain power must remain equal and the math keeps it that way.

    *there are ways to win in the moors for those with the patience to beat it out of the captain, but comparatively it is accurate.
    No, it was actually simpler than that. The idea was that "fellowship brother" will buff you will the full (or something between the limited and the full) version of the brother buffs, while still providing lesser versions to the rest of the fellowship.

    To compensate for this, make pets only summonable when solo, buff or revamp them, and make them untargettable by brother skills (or alternatively make fellowship brother not work in this case).

    I still need to flesh this out in my mind. I like the idea that was posted above about "developable" heralds a-la skirmish soldiers. You just "define" the new heralds as new combinations/subsets of skirmish soldier skills that already exist.

    There's even no need to technically have multiple soldiers, just have one that you can trait differently. In this case, replace our current herald skills with skills that allow you to slot a particular trait. You can also add the ability to slot a trait that would change the damage type of a herald (perhaps instead of buffing the player the way skirmish soldiers do).
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    I still need to flesh this out in my mind.
    Do it, this is the other way into that equation.

    Captain power = (individual power + Group buffs)

    Now insert the herald as the "group buffs" section of that equation and it still holds true, and we maintain our equal role in the group.

    This is actually what I belived they intended with the herald...as a group away from the group, but it never added up right. If the group buffs part were a 10 then heralds might be a 4. If we can make heralds a 10* while excluding that value from the group than were golden.

    *we can't turn off everything so it might have to end with heralds at 7-8
    Last edited by Armitas; Dec 10 2012 at 05:06 PM.
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  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    Do it, this is the other way into that equation.

    Captain power = (individual power + Group buffs)

    Now insert the herald as the "group buffs" section of that equation and it still holds true, and we maintain our equal role in the group.

    This is actually what I belived they intended with the herald but it never added up right. If the group buffs part were a 10 then heralds might be a 4. If we can make heralds a 10* while excluding that value from the group than were golden.

    *we can't turn off everything so it might have to end with heralds at 7-8
    Well, it's a little more complicated, because right now, heralds also have the advantage of being "portable banners", i.e. even in a group you can choose to have the lesser buffs from a herald, rather than have the banner which gives you some extra stats, but has to be cast every time you move.

    Also, right now the fellowship buffs are not part of the equation at all, since they're available both solo and in fellowship. Though I finally see where you're heading with your equation, which is a progress (I must have been quite obtuse earlier today).
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    This is actually what I belived they intended with the herald...as a group away from the group, but it never added up right. If the group buffs part were a 10 then heralds might be a 4. If we can make heralds a 10* while excluding that value from the group than were golden.
    That's what I'm aiming for with using the skirmish system for the heralds.... not only do you get the customization aspect, but it also rolls several suggestions for heralds I've seen over the year into a better solution - while not completely elegant, better than the current situation by miles. The downside, it's (more or less) a direct contradiction to the OP, and could possibly be seen as a threadjack. ^^;;;;;

    Yet, there's still the question of how to keep banners relevant with a buffed up herald....

    I could see some stats that better lock in various banners to the primary roles (so DPS captains want to use the war banner, healing captains want to use the hope banner, and tanking captains want to use the victory banner).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    Well, it's a little more complicated, because right now, heralds also have the advantage of being "portable banners", i.e. even in a group you can choose to have the lesser buffs from a herald, rather than have the banner which gives you some extra stats, but has to be cast every time you move.
    Buffs are identical FYI
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    That's what I'm aiming for with using the skirmish system for the heralds.... not only do you get the customization aspect, but it also rolls several suggestions for heralds I've seen over the year into a better solution - while not completely elegant, better than the current situation by miles. The downside, it's (more or less) a direct contradiction to the OP, and could possibly be seen as a threadjack. ^^;;;;;

    Yet, there's still the question of how to keep banners relevant with a buffed up herald....

    I could see some stats that better lock in various banners to the primary roles (so DPS captains want to use the war banner, healing captains want to use the hope banner, and tanking captains want to use the victory banner).



    Buffs are identical FYI
    Buffs are identical, but the banner also gives you stats, which you don't get from the armaments. That's what I meant, sloppy wording. Should have said "lesser benefits" instead.

    Also, since I've always been a fan of evolutionary rather than revolutionary change, here's a simple way to give us a buff:

    1. Make fellowship-brother give us the full version of brother buffs when cast on another player (fellowship still gets the limited version).

    2. Make fellowship-brother give us a limited version of brother buffs when cast on herald (the way it is now, pretty much).

    3. Make it possible to make herald deal damage of the type your weapon does -- this has of course been suggested before. Flavor-wise, this best fits as an additional effect to Loyalty ("you supply your herald with better gear", etc. in description), although from a gameplay perspective, I'd really like to tack it as an effect from fellowship-brother for cases when your brother is the herald).

    edit: I just realized that what I'm proposing in 1 is already an effect of the capstones. So much about this one...
    Last edited by Bezmer; Dec 10 2012 at 05:56 PM.
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    Also, since I've always been a fan of evolutionary rather than revolutionary change, here's a simple way to give us a buff:
    I am too, and to me, I see the skirmish system as the evolution of the herald into something for all classes. I would like for that evolutionary branch to rejoin the origin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    3. Make it possible to make herald deal damage of the type your weapon does -- this has of course been suggested before. Flavor-wise, this best fits as an additional effect to Loyalty ("you supply your herald with better gear", etc. in description), although from a gameplay perspective, I'd really like to tack it as an effect from fellowship-brother for cases when your brother is the herald).
    Some of the stuff I've seen with BR post makes me think this might actually be in internal testing atm.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Some of the stuff I've seen with BR post makes me think this might actually be in internal testing atm.
    Yes, someone had already mentioned in our forums that the herald situation is being considered -- and given that this seems to be a minimally disruptive change, I won't be surprised if it pops up sooner rather than later.
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

 

 
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