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  1. #1

    A few humble suggestions to divide the trait lines a bit

    So i`ve been playing Captain ever since closed beta. I Always loved it and i always will, however i think the path we are on right now is uninspiring.

    i`m gonna try and make this a short read but get my general point through.

    I`ve long felt it`s time for some changes on the captain, i feel it is time to separate the 3 lines more, and also i feel personally it`s time to change the yellow line. So to explain this a little here we go, bare with me if you can

    Red line : as now but nerf down the healing and raise the dps, change the bonuses to something along the line of Critical Damage Multipliers and such things for 2-3-4-5 traits to more reflect the actual "stance" if you will you are in (something along the lines of a normal geared guy at 85 would something like 20% more damage on average to better be able to hang with the other classes and 50% less healing

    Blue Line : Raise the level of healing on words of courage for one, as with the red line lower down the dps to compensate and balance it out a bit, Raise the relative hots by 20%ish

    Yellow Line : As we have red line today, a bit of both worlds, no strenght in either world but a strong solo build and viable casual raid build, i personally feel the yellow line as it stands today is very unappealing.

    I understand many will agree and disagree on it as it is with everything in this world but it would be fun to see some down to earth suggestions (As it stands now) and ideas for the class so many of us love.

    Have a great day all and thanks again for taking time reading my humble little suggestions

  2. #2
    I do not agree in general, though a couple things mentioned would be good suggested differently.

    Red - if you raise my damage by 20% and reduce my healing by 50% it can not be good for anything, you would make my soloing harder and groups i am in would rather prefer me to keep the healing rather than to have an increase in 20% to my, already not good, dps.

    You should not feel bad about having lower dps. You raise the dps of others in group more than anyone else and when you solo although your dps is low you can still solo good and decently fast. Red line combines dps and a lot of self healing if done properly.

    But yes, i would not mind some crit magnitude as a trait bonus or legacy. Can not see why would i need to give up so much healing though.


    Blue - well, here the suggestion is not that bad. Could have something like +15% HoT bonus for 5 blues and +2.5 or 5% WoC bonus on each of the 2-5 blue traits bonuses. I dont know if it would matter much to lower dps then, but i could live with 10% or 20% reduction to it with, lets say, blue cap if i got these other things with trait bonuses.


    Yellow - first of all, do not be melancholic about pre-RoI if you are. Only thing that was better was rezzing 2 people with CoV and then reseting it with ToN. But that was a bit OP too.
    Sure, yellow is less used as it is not the main traitline for raids but now you have more options.

    Two yellow traits, most commonly LS and To arms trait, are often the best way to go. You get the zero mark c/d too.
    Yellow is good for tanking and more demanding offtank jobs.
    It could use some changes to make real aggro better, some immediate threat and threat over time is one of my suggestions. There are a lot of others.

    But you would still use it less than red and blue, which is fine. I would not like to see yellow becoming a soloish traitline if that is what you propose.

    Making us do one thing good and not do other things at all in a certain trait-line is not what captain is about.
    And try out mixed traits and no capstone in raids a bit too.
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  3. #3
    Join Date
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    I can't agree with this. Captain is the only hybrid class left, and I'd hate to lose that flexibility. LtC and HoH both have their uses in endgame content, and the reason LoM is rarely used isn't necessarily because the line sucks; we just don't need to main-tank a whole lot.

    We already contribute more DPS to a group than any other class, and we have a ton of defensive utility as well. Who cares what we parse ourselves, if you want to wreck the damage meter, Captain simply is not the class to play. There's nothing wrong with that.

    tl;dr - Please keep the Captain class unique.
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  4. #4
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    I actually rather like that we have a yellow line that lets us be tanks - it works really well in 3 mans (as I tested it on BR in Warg Pens), and would rather not lose this functionality.

    Also, with red line, we parse about HALF of what a full DPS class pushes out, that's personal DPS only. Blue line is roughly half of that. If we loose our healing ability completely, we'd (likely) also need to lose our buffing, and then we'd be looking at an increase of 100% to the red line, and we might be up there with hunters.

    As far as healing goes - we're actually pushing out a lot of healing if you go with Song Brother, revealing mark, and a healing emblem - especially if you have around 50% outgoing healing combined with 20% crit. Again, that's from my experiences with 85 SA's on Bullroarer, combined with my gear from live (fsking low rolls on symbol drops in skraids).
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Dec 05 2012 at 06:15 AM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  5. #5
    Appreciate the input, no i`m not sentimental, i`m just trying to see different ways we can use our class especially considering the upcoming content (as it looks pr right now)

    These were all just suggestions in a sense that they can be used in multiple ways, i do agree we should keep the hybridness of the class that makes it special, but i`d like to see the lines a little more "specialized" if you will, getting some more appropriate bonuses especially from the red.
    The reason for my suggestion to the yellow line is simply that it`s so little used atleast on our server, i do appreciate the tanking opportunity but i don`t see it beeing used much.

    Pero`s % suggestion on the Blue line i think is a very good way to go.
    Furthermore when you start looking at what the devs want us to do (1h and shield) is partly the reason i suggested the wide varieties of change. The reason for the 50% dropdown in red healing is that if you are doing full throttle damage with so high healing it just doesn`t make sense, But personally i would love to see the opportunity to really choose. As far as getting a raidspot even with lowered healing but higher dps you still do some healing and you do still buff. Atleast that`s my view on things

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Maricat View Post
    Yellow Line : As we have red line today, a bit of both worlds, no strenght in either world but a strong solo build and viable casual raid build, i personally feel the yellow line as it stands today is very unappealing.
    If you want a bit of both worlds then why not run a mixed build? There doesn't need to be a middle line! I think going deep in one line always needs to make you stand out at something, it shouldn't be a compromise between your 2 other roles

    Quote Originally Posted by Maricat View Post
    ...snip...
    The reason for my suggestion to the yellow line is simply that it`s so little used at least on our server, i do appreciate the tanking opportunity but i don`t see it beeing used much.
    ...snip...
    But how often do you see asking people for tanks? Rather than scrapping the captain tank role, surely it needs to be improved so it is seen as a viable alternative. I know many champions who have tanked ToO wings, yet very few captains. What I would suggest to improve the line would be to make Shield of the Dunedain self target-able; giving us a medium cooldown survivability skill, currently I think we are disadvantaged because we only have skills we we pretty much keep up all the time (Defensive Strike, To Arms), and the ultimate emergency skill, last stand. We are lacking skills which could be used in a similar way as Guardians Pledge(Grd) and Sudden Defence/Invincible(champ). I also think that getting extra morale per point of vitality when traited deep yellow would be nice. At a relatively low 2000Vit, your lacking 4000 morale on the "true" tanks, making it very difficult to deal with the big spike damage.

    That said I don't think the line itself is too bad, but it would be nice to see some very tanking focussed legacies, a +threat to TS would be nice
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Maricat View Post
    So i`ve been playing Captain ever since closed beta. I Always loved it and i always will, however i think the path we are on right now is uninspiring.
    A lot of people share your discomfort with certain aspects of the captain.



    There is no way to escape our hybrid nature no matter what you trait. If you trait all red you are still hybrid. Currently we are always buffer-and or buffer-with. Every one of our trait lines are just minors, we have no major. We can go hybrid-hybrid, but we are always the first hybrid.

    Not having a second primary role is the source of my discomfort with the captain. This dissatisfaction is most readily experienced when there is no group to fulfill the "buffer" portion of the class, leaving you with nothing but minors. The most common solution being to log onto another class when there is no group. Which is disturbing enough to prove the need for a solution.
    Last edited by Armitas; Dec 05 2012 at 10:35 AM.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    A lot of people share your discomfort with certain aspects of the captain.

    There is no way to escape our hybrid nature no matter what you trait. If you trait all red you are still hybrid. Currently we are always buffer-and or buffer-with. Every one of our trait lines are just minors, we have no major.
    Why stop with just 2 primary roles?

    Turbine does it right, we can claim 4 primary roles. I think that would be something that many would have to experience on BR before they got off the "But captains would be OP if they got X" band wagon.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00CloughRN View Post
    I also think that getting extra morale per point of vitality when traited deep yellow would be nice. At a relatively low 2000Vit, your lacking 4000 morale on the "true" tanks, making it very difficult to deal with the big spike damage.
    I'd certainly find this a much more compelling reason to trait enough yellow to use the capstone, since I'd rather just use a shield if I want to block. (I have a shield for normal content anyway, might as well use it for tanking too.) It'd be a bit tricky to implement though, because as I see it we want to be about on-par with champ tanking, but this would potentially give us enough of a boost where champs would also request it, putting us behind them again.

    I'm also not sure how I feel about getting the full 5x vit for morale even when traited yellow. I'm thinking 4x vit may be a good way to go... higher than your average player, but lower than your 'normal' tanks. (Since we can still heal and buff while tanking, it seems kind of unfair to put our tanking ability right on par with those two classes.)
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    I'd certainly find this a much more compelling reason to trait enough yellow to use the capstone, since I'd rather just use a shield if I want to block. (I have a shield for normal content anyway, might as well use it for tanking too.) It'd be a bit tricky to implement though, because as I see it we want to be about on-par with champ tanking, but this would potentially give us enough of a boost where champs would also request it, putting us behind them again.
    Ah but remember a champion gets a boost to morale from going 4 deep in Glory, so they already have something very close to this (although I can't find the magnitude).


    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    I'm also not sure how I feel about getting the full 5x vit for morale even when traited yellow. I'm thinking 4x vit may be a good way to go... higher than your average player, but lower than your 'normal' tanks. (Since we can still heal and buff while tanking, it seems kind of unfair to put our tanking ability right on par with those two classes.)
    I wasn't sure myself, which was why I avoided specifying.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00CloughRN View Post
    Ah but remember a champion gets a boost to morale from going 4 deep in Glory, so they already have something very close to this (although I can't find the magnitude).
    Depends what the magnitude is. Even on a 4x instead of 3x vit multiplier and while geared primarily for might, captains would pick up an extra 500 or so morale. Scaling is always better than a solid morale number, which champs appear to have, and I have a feeling they'd complain.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Depends what the magnitude is. Even on a 4x instead of 3x vit multiplier and while geared primarily for might, captains would pick up an extra 500 or so morale. Scaling is always better than a solid morale number, which champs appear to have, and I have a feeling they'd complain.
    I would be open to having a 3x => 4x vit => morale change also be implemented on the champion side of things.

    Even on Bullroarer (where I have access to the earings + 85 PvMP rings + 85 SAs), I'm sitting at only 18k morale as a tank with Hope Banner, 16k with Victory Banner.

    Granted, I'm shy two pieces of Hytbold Leader gear, and I'm using my DPS bracelets - I was going for a fairly realistic version of my E self with 85 SA's only. Everything seemed to work alright as a tank in Warg Pens, and kept HM to the final boss (on the pull before the final boss, we wiped and the healer Alt+F4'd). We found a tank, and I switched over to healing, and healed the fight with Kranklob, so I do not know how the tank build would have held up.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Dec 05 2012 at 07:04 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  13. #13
    Maybe captains just need something like warspeech where healing or maybe buffs become self-only in exchange for a personal dps increase (primarily for solo). Just a thought.

    Although part of me is hesitant about stances being added to the captain...
    Last edited by jchudz; Dec 06 2012 at 01:03 AM.
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