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  1. #51
    ^ WOW, couldn't say it better myself in a thousand years. Thats one wise hobbit too.
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  2. #52
    Nice ideas, I wouldn't oppose them at all, but I think I could live without them.

    I've played several games where classes have nothing like the versatility of a Captain, or indeed the rest of the LotRO classes. When I played FFXI, a White Mage was a healer and it could do nothing other than heal. It was necessary to group with other players or you would stay at level 10 forever (n.b. no idea what it is like now). Similarly, the Bard class was a pure buffing/debuffing class that was pretty much useless outside of a group and impossible to solo with. I really liked how each class in that game had a very specific job to do. As an aside, in my experience at least, it not only made classes in that game more valued and sought after, but they also seemed VERY complete and incredibly well thought out right down to the tiniest detail rather than a mish-mash of different half-assed roles that some games tend to churn out.

    Anyway, my point is that compared to games like that where classes really do stay true to their traditional archetypes and have no real ability outside of their primary role, we have it easy, trust me!
    Oryette

  3. #53
    Maybe I'm getting my final fantasies mixed up but isn't this the final fantasy where you could change "jobs" at your house at any time, or speak to a nomad (bard)?

    Basically you could be a "White Mage" then when the raids over go speak to a nomad and become a warrior?

    Are they not also able to choose support jobs on top of their own jobs, giving the possibility to be a warrior with lower level skills of another job?

    Never played it, just going off things I've read.

    in the end though I don't want our current mediocrity excused away just because another game has it worse. Let both games take the right steps to fix it.
    Last edited by Armitas; Dec 31 2012 at 09:49 AM.
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  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by commanderjerkface View Post
    Anyway, my point is that compared to games like that where classes really do stay true to their traditional archetypes and have no real ability outside of their primary role, we have it easy, trust me!
    So, Captains, even though they have design challenges other classes in the same, current game don't, are at least designed better than classes in a different game from 10 years ago that's no longer current or viable?

    Ok, point taken, I guess.
    The forums are not an accurate representation of the thoughts and feelings of the whole player base. Those who like a particular feature are in the game enjoying that feature. Those who don't like it log out to mention it on the forums. It is a relevant but biased source of feedback, and any claims of community desire should take this fact into account.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    Maybe I'm getting my final fantasies mixed up but isn't this the final fantasy where you could change "jobs" at your house at any time, or speak to a nomad (bard)?

    Basically you could be a "White Mage" then when the raids over go speak to a nomad and become a warrior?
    Kind of. It is only the same as swapping to another character on LotRO though. It would still take the same amount of time and resource investment due to having to level and appropriately gear that job (ask yourself - would you, for example, gear your Champ in your LM gear?!). Furthermore, it is rarely done like that as races make a big difference on FFXI and coupled with the infamous lack of storage space, it is highly unlikely that one would confine all jobs and gear to a single toon.

    Are they not also able to choose support jobs on top of their own jobs, giving the possibility to be a warrior with lower level skills of another job?
    You can yes, but you need to sub jobs that complement each other stat and build-wise. If you subbed a White Mage with Warrior, it would be the equivalent of arming your champ with Mathom House butterknives and wearing a cosmetic hauberk. Furthermore, you'd get skills like provoke (forced challenge) which is pretty much a suicide button for a healer. The trick is to pick similar classes whose skills complement your exisiting ones rather than creating a completely ineffective hybrid class. As a quick example, tank classes often sub with the DPS Ninja class, as you could use its evasion enhancing abilities.

    So, Captains, even though they have design challenges other classes in the same, current game don't, are at least designed better than classes in a different game from 10 years ago that's no longer current or viable?
    FFXI is still going strong and will be celebrating its 10th anniversary this year. It is one of those rare games that has not had to switch to a F2P model in order to survive - in fact it was recently announced to be the most profitable game in the entire FF series. It is often heralded as having some of the most well thought out classes (and itemisation) in the MMORPG world. So I would say it is pretty current and a viable comparison. Also, I never said that classes were designed better or worse, I merely pointed out that in comparison LotRO classes are designed with flexibility in mind, rather than a single-minded specialisation. Whether you think that makes a class 'better' or not is down to personal preference.

    I am not trying to argue with anyone. I merely wanted to point out that compared to some games where you are completely confined to a primary role at any one time, we are pretty fortunate if that is something you do not like. I love how the Captain has developed and I am very thankful for the flexibility we have regardless of what traitline we go down. The ability to off-tank, DPS, heal and buff all at once is rarely seen in other MMORPGs, in my experience at least!

    I can complete any and all solo content easily, including still being able to effectively solo in the 'moors despite the changes/nerfs/'balancing'/whatever you want to call it (if you knew what you were doing, pre-expansion cappy was god-mode as a solo class in pvp - something I really didn't think was appropriate but embraced nonetheless). Sure we could do with more DPS, but sometimes I feel there are people who will not be satisfied until we can oneshot a r15 WL. Still, I like these ideas. They are well thought out and I would certainly welcome them if balanced correctly
    Last edited by commanderjerkface; Jan 01 2013 at 04:47 PM. Reason: typos
    Oryette

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by commanderjerkface View Post
    FFXI is still going strong and will be celebrating its 10th anniversary this year...
    I wasn't aware it was still actively receiving development attention...after your comment, I looked it up and see that they've a new expansion that was just announced, so my bad on the current state of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by commanderjerkface View Post
    It is often heralded as having some of the most well thought out classes (and itemisation) in the MMORPG world.
    That's subjective, and highly contextual to the design. I'm not trying to invalidate the comment, so much as contrast it to the also widespread comments about the game's inaccessibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by commanderjerkface View Post
    So I would say it is pretty current and a viable comparison.....I merely wanted to point out that compared to some games where you are completely confined to a primary role at any one time
    This is where I feel the comparison isn't really viable. When I referred to FFXI's currency, I guess I was referring more to the design philosophy that was much more common to the industry in 2003 when it released; "group up or get out of MMOs".

    FFXI is arguably the poster-child for "group or get out" design...as you yourself point out, it's impossible to even level with certain classes solo past a relatively low level. It's great that the game's still running for those who like that design, but I think it's fair to say the design concept is dated compared to the rest of the industry; more recent games (this one included) have moved well past the extreme of forced grouping for something as basic as landscape leveling content and into a more accessible design.

    So, comparing class flexibility to classes in a game with a radically different (and dated) base philosophy isn't all that valid a comparison, to my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by commanderjerkface View Post
    I can complete any and all solo content easily, including still being able to effectively solo in the 'moors despite the changes/nerfs/'balancing'/whatever you want to call it
    But again, the argument isn't whether Captains CAN complete solo content...the question is whether they can with the same freedom and flexibility that other classes enjoy. Those other classes have greater solo freedom than Captains do, while still maintaining their group roles and utility; the logical flaw, then, is pointing to Captains' group role and utility, and calling that a trade-off for a less complete solo design.

    I understand that we're both on board with the idea behind the changes, so both discussing from generally the same direction. I just don't see how some classes play in FFXI as being a relevant example, and I don't feel that a Captain's group utility should be a balancing concern for their solo freedom of play to the extent that other posters have. We can do better than that.
    Last edited by Ailedra; Jan 01 2013 at 07:42 PM.
    The forums are not an accurate representation of the thoughts and feelings of the whole player base. Those who like a particular feature are in the game enjoying that feature. Those who don't like it log out to mention it on the forums. It is a relevant but biased source of feedback, and any claims of community desire should take this fact into account.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailedra View Post
    That's subjective, and highly contextual to the design. I'm not trying to invalidate the comment, so much as contrast it to the also widespread comments about the game's inaccessibility.
    Can't argue with the inaccessibility point, haha! I know it is kinda subjective, but I've never found a game that puts so much thought into every aspect of development like FFXI does. Anyway, digressing!

    This is where I feel the comparison isn't really viable. When I referred to FFXI's currency, I guess I was referring more to the design philosophy that was much more common to the industry in 2003 when it released; "group up or get out of MMOs".

    FFXI is arguably the poster-child for "group or get out" design...as you yourself point out, it's impossible to even level with certain classes solo past a relatively low level. It's great that the game's still running for those who like that design, but I think it's fair to say the design concept is dated compared to the rest of the industry; more recent games (this one included) have moved well past the extreme of forced grouping for something as basic as landscape leveling content and into a more accessible design.

    So, comparing class flexibility to classes in a game with a radically different (and dated) base philosophy isn't all that valid a comparison, to my mind.
    Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I guess having played in such restrictive conditions regarding class roles for so long, LotRO feels like a breath of fresh air to me and it seems odd that people complain about a class, which to me at least, seems to have so much freedom and potential.

    But again, the argument isn't whether Captains CAN complete solo content...the question is whether they can with the same freedom and flexibility that other classes enjoy. Those other classes have greater solo freedom than Captains do, while still maintaining their group roles and utility; the logical flaw, then, is pointing to Captains' group role and utility, and calling that a trade-off for a less complete solo design.

    I understand that we're both on board with the idea behind the changes, so both discussing from generally the same direction. I just don't see how some classes play in FFXI as being a relevant example, and I don't feel that a Captain's group utility should be a balancing concern for their solo freedom of play to the extent that other posters have. We can do better than that.
    I must admit, I do feel pretty much the same freedom and flexibility on my Cappy as I do with the other two characters I play and keep up-to-date with (Hunt and Burg - yet to test them fully in RoR)... but then maybe they are just pretty awfully equipped/played compared to my Cappy! I also remember it in SoA days, when it was such a pain to level - it took forever to kill something without a proper DPS traitline and shout missing/resisting all the time

    But yeah, agree on the main point that if it is indeed true that we lag so much behind other classes, there is something wrong. I guess I've just never noticed/felt it as strong as others seem to have done.
    Oryette

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by commanderjerkface View Post
    I guess having played in such restrictive conditions regarding class roles for so long, LotRO feels like a breath of fresh air to me and it seems odd that people complain about a class, which to me at least, seems to have so much freedom and potential.
    Quote Originally Posted by commanderjerkface View Post
    But yeah, agree on the main point that if it is indeed true that we lag so much behind other classes, there is something wrong. I guess I've just never noticed/felt it as strong as others seem to have done.
    Fair point...the first quote might well explain the second; if you're still spending a lot of time in FFXI, pretty much anything will feel flexible by comparison. Of course, that's kind of like winning a "prettier than Danny Devito" prize....again, in the context of this game, we can do better
    The forums are not an accurate representation of the thoughts and feelings of the whole player base. Those who like a particular feature are in the game enjoying that feature. Those who don't like it log out to mention it on the forums. It is a relevant but biased source of feedback, and any claims of community desire should take this fact into account.

  9. #59
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  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    [SIZE=4][B][COLOR=#ff8c00]Please read this entire thread before posting, for your sake and my own.

    Notes. -
    Captains have been tethered and balanced upon the following equation - (captain power = Personal contribution + Group buffs). There is nothing wrong with this equation, and it is good that we are balanced this way, however there is one major flaw. If we are not in a group then our total power is cut in half. There are 2 notions expressed on these forums that are particularly telling in this regard.
    1. Leveling a captain is slow and arduous, the dps is poor.
    2. We are an alting class. Or in other words the captain only logs in when a group is made, then logged out after.
    Over the past year we have seen two major requests on the forums.
    1. make heralds useful.
    2. give us dps. (this has always been denied because we are tethered to the above equation)
    Our current Developer, DEviled_Egg has truly made some head way here, more so than I have ever seen before. However we still have a long way to go, and we share that developer with other classes who also need work.
    First sorry english isn't my usual speaking.

    Read the post and their is some great idea and even if I'm a total noob to the captain class I have a vast experience as MMO player so I have seen a lot of failed and success class balance.

    "jack of all trades" class have the potential to be borderline overpowered to be borderline gimped in a MMO and its all depend on the conception of the class.


    A) A well balanced jack of all trades can,t have a gimped DPS (usualy lower then 70% of what a pure DPS can do is gimped from what I have seen in many games). If you deal half the damage of another class in a 6man group you'd need insane buff to make it for the damage you do vs what another damage dealing class could bring.

    B) If your grouped DPS is fine usualy your solo killing speed will be. Yes you deal less DPS in group because you bring buffs, but you can solo with these buff as the other class won't have you buffing them whent hey will be soloing. And this is not true in LotRO as a champ AoE solo damage unbuffed is so much more then what a cappy can do with his own buff.

    C) jack of all trade usualy have "tools" the pure damage dealer don't, like CC,Invis, debuff and the content as been made around this.

    If class A can use his tool to split/skip a pack of enemies it is useless if class B can just RAMBO the contant and destroy it as quick as your ability to kill only 1 of them, your tools as useless.

    I don't think captain should be re-worked in a way they can trade their "group-like" abilities to gain what the damage dealer class can deal.

    I think they should just re-think about how they are balancing the class right now. Cappy just seems to give too much damage in order to bring utilities.
    Last edited by varlak74; May 06 2013 at 10:39 AM.

 

 
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