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  1. #51
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    They need to put the cool down timers back in. I see so many times these days people get killed a few times and jump to the winning side if it be creep or freep. I know a few creep leaders are starting not to invite these people to raids. The freep side should start doing the same.
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  2. #52
    With commendations account wide, people will switch over to get more comms. The moors lockout timer needs to be increased to 1 hour minimum (i would be happy with 4 hour timer).
    .
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by cshamblin View Post
    They need to put the cool down timers back in. I see so many times these days people get killed a few times and jump to the winning side if it be creep or freep. I know a few creep leaders are starting not to invite these people to raids. The freep side should start doing the same.
    I completely agree with the sentiment. I have no problem with people swapping to the losing side to even up the numbers, but it seems the more common approach now is to go to the winning side so as to maximize their infamy/renown gain. I try to give the benefit of the doubt in most instances, but when the raid was just wiped and suddenly they are on the other side then there are not too many defenses left at that point.

    You will never be able to prevent this because the majority of people will take the easiest route, but you can ensure that they do not have support of the raid that was there path to easy renown/infamy...
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaxMaxtor View Post
    ... You do realize that you did copy that from one of my and Vic's rants, right? The same guy that plays that Dwarf Guardian we are referring to? You also took it out of context but that's ok.. LOL.. If you really want to make Ronnug/Gunnor out to be the one with the elitist attitude then great... hahaha ...

    You know what, I'm gonna help you out here... After careful consideration, I think you should use my attitude toward you and your elitist friends here on these pvp forums as evidence of me being an elitist. I have been con descendent (think I'm better) when it comes to our PVP Forum Spars. I do kick your booties and you make it so easy... hahahaha
    My point was lot's of people do very d***** things in the moors whether it's for spite/farming/boredom. Don't let your e-motions block your view to only the ones you have a grudge with.

    Your vic rant post was reffering to 2 people. But yes Vic was what set you off. It's funny how he doesn't even have to try. And the post shows that when you point a finger at somebody(s) you have 3 fingers pointing back at you! :O

    Grats on 5 stars. Glad to know what side you're on. *thumbs up*
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_blah View Post
    My point was lot's of people do very d***** things in the moors whether it's for spite/farming/boredom. Don't let your e-motions block your view to only the ones you have a grudge with.

    Your vic rant post was reffering to 2 people. But yes Vic was what set you off. It's funny how he doesn't even have to try. And the post shows that when you point a finger at somebody(s) you have 3 fingers pointing back at you! :O

    Grats on 5 stars. Glad to know what side you're on. *thumbs up*
    I wasn't going to chime in on this topic. But since so many of the facts are wrong and now it's being stated that I was the guardian...

    Quote Originally Posted by DaxMaxtor View Post
    One late nite, Gunnor and a small group fight their way into DG only to discover that a group you were in were there farming accommodations. I sent a tell to what I assumed was your leader, requesting that we be allowed to capture the relic since y'all were just farming, only to get the reply that "we were here first". We helped bring down the Tyrant after your group had alread tagged it and as soon as the gate opens, a Dwarf Guard that was also in your group, grabs the relic and proceeds to NOT deliver it to OR until time expired.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaxMaxtor View Post
    You do realize that you did copy that from one of my and Vic's rants, right? The same guy that plays that Dwarf Guardian we are referring to?
    Nice story, Gunnor. Your facts are all wrong, but that isn't really a surprise. Here's my guard.. I do not own a dwarf guard. Secondly, we weren't farming "accommodations". I remember the time in question. Althorr was in our group, which means this was almost two years ago and that this was a Phalanx kingroup. That means the level cap was still 65. You've never been able to farm "accommodations" at DG. This would have been two springs ago, at least a year before "accommodations", which would mean we were farming crests/brooches.

    The individual who took your precious relic wasn't myself. It was taken by Insano or Lamora (His dwarf guard is named Krayken, not Fatwanda). The individual leading your group, had been running his mouth in a very unkind manner towards many members of the kinship that was at DG farming. It comes as no surprise that when you guys arrived, members of our group were less than "accommodating" to your group. What exactly is it you're complaining about though? A group of players were at a location before you were there, didn't give you the relic, waited until the time almost expired, and still turned it in as your group had wished despite the ####talking of the leader and other members of your group before, during, and after this instance?

    How cruel and tragic!
    Last edited by Ravyrn; Dec 03 2012 at 02:28 PM.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkshipOfLanterns View Post
    I've noticed the majority of the people camping GV are people who didnt play much during moria or SOA... Yeah I'll come up and camp for 10 minutes because our noob creeps won't let the freeps out... I'll usually just log for the night. I think the freep pvp population suffers a bit right now because they're all playing their creeps... So many new names ranking quickly... People making 20k in a day... I just hope this games headin in the right direction.... I'm almost hoping there's a hot fix soon to make freeps OP again... Guess only time will tell....
    I don't really think the statement in your post that I bolded is fair to say. In my opinion, there are four different type of players in the Moors:

    1) Those who play creep
    2) Those who play freep
    3) Those who play whichever side needs help
    4) Those who play whichever side is easiest (fotm/ezmoders)

    With that said, I think your complaint would best be directed at #4 and not #2 from the list above. I looked at surugi.com, and of the 29 creeps on the first page of the leaderboard, only 9 of the 29 could be considered active creeps prior to RoR.

    10 of the 29 are freshly rolled creeps
    5 of the 29 have very recently returned/transferred from other servers

    That means that over half of the top earners on creep for last week weren't here prior to RoR. Which translates to 50% of the most active creeps returning or becoming active after the update. Meanwhile, the freep population since RoR has been reduced by 33-50% depending on the week you look at. We also have only a hand full of freeps who lead raids (which is needed to be successful as creeps are content forming raids to farm GV when there are no grouped freeps out) and two of the main freep raid leaders (myself and Aris) haven't had much time since this summer. The first time I went back out to the Moors after RoR, there were 2 other freeps, both sitting on the steps of GV, and I tracked 18 foe and 11 nature. I went back up the steps and dropped down and hugged the wall to go out ganking. I guess a warg saw me, because as I crossed near good grim, the entire raid mapped in to gank me. This has pretty much set the pace for RoR pvp in my experience.

    Anyways, I'll have free time in about 10 more days, and intend to push for r13 with the free time I'll have in between semesters. I think Tarvin's gonna join me in trying to rank, and I believe Aris will have more free time during the holidays too, so maybe we'll see some more action out soon.

    Also, it's comical seeing some of the creeps that are criticizing freeps in this thread and in-game. Looking up the stats for two reavers in particular, I can't help but notice neither of them really creeped all that much until after RoR. They're quick to criticize freeps for not coming out when they themselves hardly even played creep when it was actually challenging.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    I wasn't going to chime in on this topic. But since so many of the facts are wrong and now it's being stated that I was the guardian...
    I stand corrected.
    Last edited by the_blah; Dec 03 2012 at 02:46 PM.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by shark1979 View Post
    With commendations account wide, people will switch over to get more comms. The moors lockout timer needs to be increased to 1 hour minimum (i would be happy with 4 hour timer).
    If they reinstated the locks it would be nice if they did it both ways. No timer for freeps was so people could PvE/Quest in the moors when ever they wanted. It is a pve game after all. I always thought it was a dumb though. :/
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    I wasn't going to chime in on this topic. But since so many of the facts are wrong and now it's being stated that I was the guardian...






    Nice story, Gunnor. Your facts are all wrong, but that isn't really a surprise. Here's my guard.. I do not own a dwarf guard. Secondly, we weren't farming "accommodations". I remember the time in question. Althorr was in our group, which means this was almost two years ago and that this was a Phalanx kingroup. That means the level cap was still 65. You've never been able to farm "accommodations" at DG. This would have been two springs ago, at least a year before "accommodations", which would mean we were farming crests/brooches.

    The individual who took your precious relic wasn't myself. It was taken by Insano or Lamora (His dwarf guard is named Krayken, not Fatwanda). The individual leading your group, had been running his mouth in a very unkind manner towards many members of the kinship that was at DG farming. It comes as no surprise that when you guys arrived, members of our group were less than "accommodating" to your group. What exactly is it you're complaining about though? A group of players were at a location before you were there, didn't give you the relic, and then waited to turn it in until the time almost expired, and still turned it in as your group had wished despite the #### &&&& talking of the leader and other members of your group before, during, and after this instance?

    How cruel and tragic!
    I am old and can't say I always get all the facts straight but with the trivial facts aside, (it wasn't accommodations but crest/broaches instead), thanks for substantiating at least in part the story I was using as and example of some people with elitist attitudes. I would say that griefing a group of people because you have a beef with one of those individuals is a good example.
    Now that I admit that I was wrong about something, shouldn't you step up? Because those Relics didn't get delivered by your group and they did end up back at DG. As a matter of fact, we went back later that same night and finished it after your group finished farming those crest/broaches.

    Another point being, they're folks all over that farm areas and when someone comes through doing quest, they stop and let the quester pass through. They don't usually refuse and say that they were there first unless they have a elitist attitude.. So thanks also for taking the "We were there first stance"..
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  10. #60
    I'm quite curious to know who some of these people are that flip to the winning side, I know that this tactic was pretty prevalent back in the good old days, and am hoping that the fact that it used to be done a lot isn't part of the reasoning for people today thinking that it goes on. I feel like I am out there enough that I would notice this sort of thing but to my best recollection I can't think of any names. Sure there are people who are on one side one night and the other the next night, but I dont really see anything wrong with that.

    As far as the lockout timers, I also wouldn't mind seeing that be reinstated, but I fear that would just cause people to log from the moors altogether. And in nearly all cases, people in the moors > people not in the moors. I would much rather see people flip to the winning side than see them leave the moors for the night. I dont think that there has been an instance yet where the flippers have caused the action to completely die off. There is a much great chance of the action dying for good if flippers leave the moors than switch sides.

    Besides, the people that flip to the winning side are terrible for the most part and will die regardless, and if the numbers do change that bad, myself and quite a few others I know have no problem going over to the side that is getting rolled, and then proceeding to dominate once more.

    But then again maybe my play style isn't shared by as many people as I would hope it is, and I usually do have more than a couple people who I play with on a given night, and am rarely out by myself.
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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaxMaxtor View Post
    I am old and can't say I always get all the facts straight but with the trivial facts aside, (it wasn't accommodations but crest/broaches instead), thanks for substantiating at least in part the story I was using as and example of some people with elitist attitudes. I would say that griefing a group of people because you have a beef with one of those individuals is a good example.
    Now that I admit that I was wrong about something, shouldn't you step up? Because those Relics didn't get delivered by your group and they did end up back at DG. As a matter of fact, we went back later that same night and finished it after your group finished farming those crest/broaches.

    Another point being, they're folks all over that farm areas and when someone comes through doing quest, they stop and let the quester pass through. They don't usually refuse and say that they were there first unless they have a elitist attitude.. So thanks also for taking the "We were there first stance"..
    Did you miss the part where Insano or Lamora (I forget which) turned in the silly relic? It took extreme amounts of persuasion, but members of our kin persuaded them to turn in your precious relic so you could "win the ettenmoors". Also, seeing as the leader and various members of the group in question had been running their mouths off to the kin that made up most (or all) of our group, it's of no surprise that Lamora or Insano took the relic. I think this is more a case of karma than it is elitist.

    Trivial facts aside? You stated that I was the one who took the stupid relic. You were wrong. You stated that the relic was never turned in. You were wrong. And you conveniently left out the part of the story where the leader of your group and various other of its members had been #### talking the kinship that was farming. Hell, the leader in question threatened to report me to the FBI for cyber bullying after I had sent him tells asking he quit making personal attacks on members of my kinship, quit using my rl name and other personal information in game, and making characters with a play on my rl name and then trolling glff on it.

    I assure you if these events were to happen today, I most assuredly would be the one to take the stupid relic, and I most certainly wouldn't have turned it in. And it would not be a case of me being an elitist. It would be a case of me delivering karma to the leader of your group and giving him the treatment and respect he deserves.
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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThankYou4NotMoshing View Post
    I'm quite curious to know who some of these people are that flip to the winning side, I know that this tactic was pretty prevalent back in the good old days, and am hoping that the fact that it used to be done a lot isn't part of the reasoning for people today thinking that it goes on. I feel like I am out there enough that I would notice this sort of thing but to my best recollection I can't think of any names. Sure there are people who are on one side one night and the other the next night, but I dont really see anything wrong with that.

    As far as the lockout timers, I also wouldn't mind seeing that be reinstated, but I fear that would just cause people to log from the moors altogether. And in nearly all cases, people in the moors > people not in the moors. I would much rather see people flip to the winning side than see them leave the moors for the night. I dont think that there has been an instance yet where the flippers have caused the action to completely die off. There is a much great chance of the action dying for good if flippers leave the moors than switch sides.

    Besides, the people that flip to the winning side are terrible for the most part and will die regardless, and if the numbers do change that bad, myself and quite a few others I know have no problem going over to the side that is getting rolled, and then proceeding to dominate once more.

    But then again maybe my play style isn't shared by as many people as I would hope it is, and I usually do have more than a couple people who I play with on a given night, and am rarely out by myself.
    Not sure who this was in response to, Del. If it was to my post, I wasn't referencing flipfloppers as much I was referencing players that pre-RoR would farm oc/Lug rez on freep, and now farm GV/BV on creep. These are the same players who, after having happily farmed for multiple hours, would log within 5 minutes of us making a raid and wiping them once to bust up the farmfests. Due to forum guidelines I can't call individuals out on the forums, but I can provide you with a hefty # of examples next time I'm in vent/game.
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  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    Not sure who this was in response to, Del. If it was to my post, I wasn't referencing flipfloppers as much I was referencing players that pre-RoR would farm oc/Lug rez on freep, and now farm GV/BV on creep. These are the same players who, after having happily farmed for multiple hours, would log within 5 minutes of us making a raid and wiping them once to bust up the farmfests. Due to forum guidelines I can't call individuals out on the forums, but I can provide you with a hefty # of examples next time I'm in vent/game.
    It wasn't a reply to anyone in particular, but more so a reply and voicing my thoughts aloud in response to what I see in glff/ooc, the forums here, and voice chatter in raids/vent. I'm just wondering if I have really been that blind to all the flip-to-the-winning-side going on of late lol
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThankYou4NotMoshing View Post
    It wasn't a reply to anyone in particular, but more so a reply and voicing my thoughts aloud in response to what I see in glff/ooc, the forums here, and voice chatter in raids/vent. I'm just wondering if I have really been that blind to all the flip-to-the-winning-side going on of late lol
    Just goto the leaderboards and look at all the rank 6-8 creeps that did not exist before RoR lol
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  15. #65
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    accidental double post...
    Last edited by the_blah; Dec 03 2012 at 05:16 PM.
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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThankYou4NotMoshing View Post
    ... As far as the lockout timers, I also wouldn't mind seeing that be reinstated, but I fear that would just cause people to log from the moors altogether. And in nearly all cases, people in the moors > people not in the moors. I would much rather see people flip to the winning side than see them leave the moors for the night. ...
    I'd rather have 5 people with the right motivation than a hundred with the motivation to just farm. Just because there is people doesn't mean there will be PvP. It all depends on why people are there.
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThankYou4NotMoshing View Post
    I'm quite curious to know who some of these people are that flip to the winning side, I know that this tactic was pretty prevalent back in the good old days, and am hoping that the fact that it used to be done a lot isn't part of the reasoning for people today thinking that it goes on. I feel like I am out there enough that I would notice this sort of thing but to my best recollection I can't think of any names. Sure there are people who are on one side one night and the other the next night, but I dont really see anything wrong with that.

    As far as the lockout timers, I also wouldn't mind seeing that be reinstated, but I fear that would just cause people to log from the moors altogether. And in nearly all cases, people in the moors > people not in the moors. I would much rather see people flip to the winning side than see them leave the moors for the night. I dont think that there has been an instance yet where the flippers have caused the action to completely die off. There is a much great chance of the action dying for good if flippers leave the moors than switch sides.

    Besides, the people that flip to the winning side are terrible for the most part and will die regardless, and if the numbers do change that bad, myself and quite a few others I know have no problem going over to the side that is getting rolled, and then proceeding to dominate once more.

    But then again maybe my play style isn't shared by as many people as I would hope it is, and I usually do have more than a couple people who I play with on a given night, and am rarely out by myself.
    I'm not sure if you and I think of the same good old days when referencing "the good old days" or not... but I actually see it being a lot more prevalent of an issue now than it ever was during the different eras I was around for. I'm sure that's partially because of the lockout timer being removed. But for the record, when I complain about it, I am more talking about people on one side who log then are on the other 10 minutes later, not people who are working on one side one night and another the next.

    I disagree with you on some stuff though. I would rather see people log than flip to the winning side. If freeps roll creeps, creeps have a better chance of keeping a good fight going if they lose someone than if they lose someone AND freeps gain someone. Works both ways. I doubt Turbine wants to work out all of the tech to automatically move freeps from the moors, and know they don't want to lock people out from getting to PvE on their toon after playing creep. But I wish they would put in some sort of hold on the ability to gain Infamy or Renown for a few hours after you have gained it on the other side. Would still let people who have some friends come on the other side switch to help them and play with buddies, but would drastically cut down the "flip to wherever I'll get easier rewards" type stuff I see happening, IMO.

    Obviously I don't recognize all of the names doing it, but I'll send you a PM with some of the obvious ones, just so you have an idea what I'm talking about.
    Last edited by ncc1295; Dec 03 2012 at 06:23 PM.
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  18. #68
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    I know the new rating system is a little strange but really? Gunnor with 5 stars? The world is not right.
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    Did you miss the part where Insano or Lamora (I forget which) turned in the silly relic? It took extreme amounts of persuasion, but members of our kin persuaded them to turn in your precious relic so you could "win the ettenmoors". Also, seeing as the leader and various members of the group in question had been running their mouths off to the kin that made up most (or all) of our group, it's of no surprise that Lamora or Insano took the relic. I think this is more a case of karma than it is elitist.

    Trivial facts aside? You stated that I was the one who took the stupid relic. You were wrong. You stated that the relic was never turned in. You were wrong. And you conveniently left out the part of the story where the leader of your group and various other of its members had been #### talking the kinship that was farming. Hell, the leader in question threatened to report me to the FBI for cyber bullying after I had sent him tells asking he quit making personal attacks on members of my kinship, quit using my rl name and other personal information in game, and making characters with a play on my rl name and then trolling glff on it.

    I assure you if these events were to happen today, I most assuredly would be the one to take the stupid relic, and I most certainly wouldn't have turned it in. And it would not be a case of me being an elitist. It would be a case of me delivering karma to the leader of your group and giving him the treatment and respect he deserves.
    I am first to question what I might recall and for good reason. It was a long time ago after all and my memory isn't what it use to be, but Tahi just chimed in, scolding me for my antics here first off and also agreeing with you about my failed memory.
    While she wasn't logged in or in the first group, she was setting at her desk next to me when the incident in question occurred. She say's that I was actually the Leader of that group. She also says that the relics were in fact not taken to Ost because she logged in to help us after loosing a couple of our group members to take both the relics to Ost. She also says she didn't pay attention to who originally took the relic so I'll give you that one.

    So, I have to ask? Am I this terrible Leader that did all these awful things to you and your kin, because I nor Tahi recall any of that?

    "Trivial facts aside", I take some pleasure in knowing that I'm not the only one "wrong" here. I'm just the only one that admits to it. Another characteristic of having an elitist attitude is never ever being wrong..

    And please, before attacking Tahi about her recollection, let me state that this gal recalls the most minor stupid stuff I did 15 yrs ago.. (stupid stuff like me bringing her character's name into this argument) Boy am I gonna have some lumps on the back of my head when she finds this out..
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by cshamblin View Post


    I know the new rating system is a little strange but really? Gunnor with 5 stars? The world is not right.
    "Strange" to say the least... I went from around a 700 rating to 2000 in about an hour or less and didn't even realize it until others in the raid were talking about their own ratings. Even funnier, you guys were farming the crud out of me and a few others just prior to it happening.
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaxMaxtor View Post
    I am first to question what I might recall and for good reason. It was a long time ago after all and my memory isn't what it use to be, but Tahi just chimed in, scolding me for my antics here first off and also agreeing with you about my failed memory.
    While she wasn't logged in or in the first group, she was setting at her desk next to me when the incident in question occurred. She say's that I was actually the Leader of that group. She also says that the relics were in fact not taken to Ost because she logged in to help us after loosing a couple of our group members to take both the relics to Ost. She also says she didn't pay attention to who originally took the relic so I'll give you that one.

    So, I have to ask? Am I this terrible Leader that did all these awful things to you and your kin, because I nor Tahi recall any of that?

    "Trivial facts aside", I take some pleasure in knowing that I'm not the only one "wrong" here. I'm just the only one that admits to it. Another characteristic of having an elitist attitude is never ever being wrong..

    And please, before attacking Tahi about her recollection, let me state that this gal recalls the most minor stupid stuff I did 15 yrs ago.. (stupid stuff like me bringing her character's name into this argument) Boy am I gonna have some lumps on the back of my head when she finds this out..
    Perhaps we're thinking of two separate instances and I wasn't even present at the one you and Tahi are referring to? I've only been present for one such instance like that at DG, and it involved a certain captain who thought he was clever because he found personal details about me and started dropping them in-game and trolling glff on a lvl 1 character named after my rl name. Perhaps the hunter in question cares to chime in? Meanwhile, I'll gonna look for threads started by you during this time frame. You surely would have come to the forums and posted about such an event.
    Last edited by Ravyrn; Dec 04 2012 at 02:06 AM.
    [CENTER][COLOR=#C7CF92][img]http://i.imgur.com/9rGw1Yd.gif[/img]
    Misadventure - R14 Hunter, Fatwanda-1 - R10 Guard
    Velvetsixteen - R13 Reaver, Reported - R11 Warg, Gloriousleader - R10 WL[/COLOR]
    [/CENTER]

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    North Carolina, US
    Posts
    808
    Sorry to butt in to your back and forth over some event a few years ago, buuut I felt tonight (12/3) was pretty win. We had a nice long battle at old OC locale that eventually moved to EC. Being so close to the creep rez they were able to just run back in and they either let minstrels get rezzes off or we had sneakysneaky mins that got 'em off. Either way both sides got lots of kills and I'm calling it winning. There were some complaints about being so close to creep rez, but, hey, man up.

    I had fun, got some freaking KBs(oh yes), and died oodles; more of this please. With sugar and sprinkles and bourbon on top??

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Burleson TX
    Posts
    1,379
    Quote Originally Posted by Shau'nac View Post
    Sorry to butt in to your back and forth over some event a few years ago, buuut I felt tonight (12/3) was pretty win. We had a nice long battle at old OC locale that eventually moved to EC. Being so close to the creep rez they were able to just run back in and they either let minstrels get rezzes off or we had sneakysneaky mins that got 'em off. Either way both sides got lots of kills and I'm calling it winning. There were some complaints about being so close to creep rez, but, hey, man up.

    I had fun, got some freaking KBs(oh yes), and died oodles; more of this please. With sugar and sprinkles and bourbon on top??
    From my perspective, things really are picking up.. Over the weekend I was evolved in some really long fights and lots of them.. Saturday night, there were over 35 Freeps on at one time and they more than held their own.. That was some good fun as well.. Gladden isn't dead yet by no means.. and I still say, when numbers are even that it's about as even as I've ever seen it when it comes to group vs group..
    Ronnug - The Blueberry Reaver on Gladden
    I don't feel a thing when dieing ingame. The only time I really mind is when the rez is on the other side of the map.

  24. #74
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    In-game
    Posts
    3,698
    I dont see why freeps go out in the Moors without 2agers then again, there are no options. either the 0,000000000000001% from bugud or r10 to get one, Turbine's messed up big time.
    Nerf healing in PvMP and just maybe it will be worth it again.

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Rezz Circle
    Posts
    1,010
    it apears that this thread is now about elitism.

    do we need to bring up Incendio? an ***hole who will not group with anyone less than rank 5. who was last i checked backed by my good freind Tingur(still don't know how that happened). do we really need to bring him into this? elitism will not go away, i persoanly employ the / ignore method, just ignore the eilitist and they will go away.

 

 
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