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  1. #1

    LOTRO is all Loot Ninja

    Since September of 2010, I've been a fan of LOTRO. Prior to coming here, I'd played many MMORPGS, none the least of which were EQ2, DDO, and WoW.

    EQ2 and WoW had a definite maturity issue I ran into and left the games after years of raiding because I was sick of having to explain the Concept of Need/Greed/Pass. In fact, the games changed to keep people from either "Loot Ninja"ing things and requiring a Game Master to put right, but also there was the system by which the grapevine was filled with info on thief and ignorant Ninja alike.

    Since coming here I have seen NONE of this restraint. People Needing on everything that isn't welded to the deck, including inappropriate items that are bound. But what really shocks me is the looting of materials for professions. Grab and run, grab and run...I have an alt, I want it! I NEED it!

    Well, bring your alt to the instance and let them take their lumps. Oh? You don't say, it's only level 12 and is ONLY for professions? Well, I'd say level him or get out of the group. This kind of permissive behavior is simply sloppy, uncaring and takes away from those who are trying to get by with fewer toons and a real life.

    But I'm curious as to your opinions, my fellows on Imladris. What do you think?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    31

    Maegilmir

    You make two claims that are considered contradictory by the majority of players on Imladris (I am not saying that they are contradictory, only that they are considered that way):
    • Needing on profession items "is simply sloppy, uncaring and takes away from those who are trying to get by with fewer toons and a real life."
    • People who want to Need on profession items should give up time they could otherwise spend in real life and level their crafting alts (level more, rather than fewer, main toons).

    If you can understand why they are considered contradictory, then you will understand the belief system of most Imladris players and why virtually everyone considers it acceptable. If you cannot, then be prepared for others to consider you to have sloppy logic, an uncaring attitude, and be taking away from people who want to get by with fewer high-level toons and a real life.


    Note that I have only encountered a handful of people that Needed on inappropriate BoA items when there was someone who could use it. This is generally not considered acceptable by Imladris players.
    Last edited by Zharzak; Nov 17 2012 at 07:42 PM.

  3. #3
    Maegilmir,

    Keep in mind that in LOTRO, many peeps feel that their alts
    are part of their families. Their children.
    It seems only natural that they would want to provide for their 'kids'.

    If someone in a PUG group rolls for an alt, think of them as saying:
    "Come on dice, baby needs a new pair of shoes."

    I'm new to LOTRO and have no clue about PUGs, but everyone I've met
    on Imladris seems top notch.

    It could be that Turbine needs to work on a more disciplined loot table for PUGs.
    I'm sure your ideas would be welcomed on the suggestion forum.

    I do agree with your feelings in principle, so thanks for your post.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Zharzak View Post
    You make two claims that are considered contradictory by the majority of players on Imladris (I am not saying that they are contradictory, only that they are considered that way):
    • Needing on profession items "is simply sloppy, uncaring and takes away from those who are trying to get by with fewer toons and a real life."
    • People who want to Need on profession items should give up time they could otherwise spend in real life and level their crafting alts (level more, rather than fewer, main toons).

    If you can understand why they are considered contradictory, then you will understand the belief system of most Imladris players and why virtually everyone considers it acceptable. If you cannot, then be prepared for others to consider you to have sloppy logic, an uncaring attitude, and be taking away from people who want to get by with fewer high-level toons and a real life.


    Note that I have only encountered a handful of people that Needed on inappropriate BoA items when there was someone who could use it. This is generally not considered acceptable by Imladris players.
    Thanks for your answer, and I did address some of why the "logic" they use here is faulty.

    In fact, the entire method by which Need/Greed?pass exists is due to games that came before where the rules were well established. In fact, if you did this silliness more than once, you might as well delete your toon in ANY WoW server and 90% of those on EQ2, as they have or had active threads on forums to list the Ninjas and make sure they did not group with anyone, ever, again.

    SO it still comes down to sloppy, lazy, Ninjas so far as the "logic" used to justify it is not truly much more than childish amelioration of guilt.

    Anyone else have thought son this?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    448
    I think you're diluting the term "loot ninja". To me, "ninja" looters are those who abuse the position of group leader to get stuff without rolling on them at all. That's very deserving of public shaming, and a known ninja looter should never be given the lead role.

    People rolling on bind-on-acquire items that their class can't use are indeed a problem, but not nearly in the same class as master-loot-abusers. Public shaming works here too, and smart group leaders can nullify this issue entirely by using master looter rules and making sure the roll winners can actually use the items.

    People rolling on non-binding items aren't a problem for me. If you have a use for it, on that character or on an alt, rolling "need" is perfectly acceptable. If you win it and I really need it, I'll ask if you would be willing to give or sell it to me, and I'll live if you decline.

    Whatever it is, it will drop again, and life's too short to worry about someone else's reasons for clicking "need" or "greed".
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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    376
    That's why I don't put up Need/Greed/Pass for the loot rule. It's either a need/greed thing (either you want it or you don't) and then when it comes to PUGs, just do Master Looter. And most of the people who play on this server have absolutely no problem rolling on something if they're alt needs them. And most people highly disapprove of rolling for items that you don't need that other people do. Though I have seen plenty of instances where if an alt needs something in an instance that isn't BoA, and a person who's in the group need it, the person with the alt will pass and give the item to them. There's always another chance.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by banjolier View Post
    I think you're diluting the term "loot ninja". To me, "ninja" looters are those who abuse the position of group leader to get stuff without rolling on them at all. That's very deserving of public shaming, and a known ninja looter should never be given the lead role..
    I appreciate your opinion, but what you have just stated is the reason WHY this thread is rather important. Because what you have stated is quite literally the problem. This is not what "Loot Ninja" means to you, it's what it ACTUALLY is and the exact definition as set down by past and present MMOs and WHY the loot rules are what they are.


    Allow me to show you:

    "A loot ninja, AKA ninja looter or simply ninja, is a player who takes loot to which he or she is not entitled. The act is referred to as ninja looting or ninjaing. The term predates World of Warcraft and originated with the notion of looting as quickly as possible. The common synonym for this behavior is greeder, though that term has ironically fairer play connotations specific to WoW.

    The term seems to have a few different meanings depending on whom you ask, including:
    A player who, when in a group, rolls "Need" on everything regardless of if he or she can use it.
    A player who, when in a group, rolls "Need" on BoE recipes for a character they are not currently playing.
    A player who rolls on an BoP item that everyone else has passed on or a player who loots a corpse without permission after everyone has passed on a BoP item. Generally, groups decide how to best make use of the item that no one can use, sometimes DPS classes will back out of +healing/+spell damage (as opposed to just +spell damage) even if it is an upgrade and will ask for the item if no one else needs it. Additionally, if no one needs it and no one reconsidered, it often goes to a enchanter, who disenchants it, and then the group rolls for the materials acquired from the disenchanted item. Sometimes players loot items for more sentimental reasons (like "town clothes" in RP servers) and will normally pass on it unless no one else needs it. If there are no enchanters in the group and no one changes their mind, generally the group will roll for its NPC value.
    A player who loots a chest or harvests a resource while another player is fighting the mobs which were defending it, possibly using stealth or a dash ability to aid in this.
    A party or raid leader who changes the looting system to "Master Loot" near the end of a boss kill and steals the loot off of a corpse without letting other players roll for the items. Especially one who sets up a group just for the first or second boss, and then hearthstones without speaking or claiming he has to sleep or work, meanwhile setting up another group to loot it again, perhaps prominent of Gold Farmers."


    AS you can see, the term is rather large, dates back to EQ1 as far as I have read and as such includes ALL drops including profession based materials, node theft, chest theft, etc. It is all just one large heading for bad behavior.

    Now I understand that this game is much smaller so the action of Blacklisting a person is rather difficult as there is a far more finite level of players here than in WoW, EQ1/2, City of Heroes, or growing games like Star Wars and Star Trek. However, with a few well placed persons putting their foot down and demanding fairness, this can be easily changed. Focusing on people needing or rolling on items they do not actually need is rather rare compared to people simply swiping anything and everything they can, but that it happens LESS does not mean it does not happen at all, so please do not use that argument in favor of maintaining chaos as it currently reigns.

    I'm averse to allowing this conversation to devolve to WHY it's bad and should be altered, as that dilutes the reality that it should not be happening at all.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    448
    Quote Originally Posted by Maegilmir View Post
    Allow me to show you:

    "A loot ninja is a player who takes loot to which he or she is not entitled. [snip]"

    AS you can see, the term is rather large, dates back to EQ1 as far as I have read and as such includes ALL drops including profession based materials, node theft, chest theft, etc. It is all just one large heading for bad behavior.
    Thanks. I'm not terribly interested in a lecture on MMO History & Ethics, but I'm glad there are people who worry about it to this degree. Perhaps in future lectures you should include links to primary sources for the rest of the class.

    Look, people behave badly sometimes. It's fairly simple to handle: change what you can, and get over what you can't. If you join a group, inspect the loot rule and ask that it be changed if it isn't up to snuff. If you see bad behavior, call it out. If someone takes your ore node, find another.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by banjolier View Post
    Thanks. I'm not terribly interested in a lecture on MMO History & Ethics, but I'm glad there are people who worry about it to this degree. Perhaps in future lectures you should include links to primary sources for the rest of the class.

    Look, people behave badly sometimes. It's fairly simple to handle: change what you can, and get over what you can't. If you join a group, inspect the loot rule and ask that it be changed if it isn't up to snuff. If you see bad behavior, call it out. If someone takes your ore node, find another.
    Despite your irrational intent to impugn what I am talking about here (I can only surmise the reason behind it) and your declaration of a lack of interest that indicates you should not trouble yourself with this thread further, alongside your shaming tactic that I am somehow lecturing rather than discussing because this seems to over your head, and a demand I cite my sources, your final statement clinches that you truly are walking into this discussion ignorantly attempting to act as though I'm not trying to, in your own words,"change what you can and get over what you can't."

    You never know what you can change until you try and this, if you could not guess I'm giving you a clue, is the fledgling attempt to start that change. I've always believed that you must be the change you wish to see. I have not ever been a Greeder or a Ninja, and unfortunately just being what I hope is a good example has not been enough. Stating, in group, my dissatisfaction also has not gained traction. I thought that would have been obvious, if it's not, now it is.

    One of the most important things I learned in College was,"Only fools critique a critique."

    As for the source of the data, since you seem unable to use a search engine:

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Loot_ninja

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...m=loot%20ninja

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looting_(gaming)

    http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ninja_Looting

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NinjaLooting

    I trust these will be enough for you to read at your leisure Banjolier, and as you are adding nothing to the discussion except replies that seem to point to taking this situation as a personal attack, why not turn your attention to other matters more important to you and ignore this thread.

  10. #10
    We all have our own playstyles.

    We all need to get along.

    Now, before the OP responds to me by insinuating or implying that I must be a Ninja Looter or have other nefarious reasons behind my need to post (e.g. your response to banjolier), I will confirm I do not ninja loot, have a preference (unless we all get our own loot like in RoR) for Master Loot especially in PuGs, which I will request at the start of a run, and if I get shafted in a master loot scenario will let those I know know, and put the leader on ignore, and get on with my life.

    The situation with nodes is quite different - if someone is killing a mob to get at a node - then I will see it as their's and ride on.

    If I'm going for a node, and just pip someone to it, well thats actually how it goes - remember what I see in my client is different from what you see in yours and always a little different from how it is on the server. That node I/you see with no one else around, may not actually be the case dependent on my/your graphical settings, lag etc.

    Another point, is ore/wood/scholar mats etc. has value and can be sold - also unless you are talking about materials from mobs, you have to have the skill to harvest it in the first place.

    If you are talking about mats from mobs - well anyone who helps kill it has a chance at it to my eyes. I would extend this to any loot with the following exceptions: -
    Its class specific in it, and you have that class in your group - they get first refusal
    Its BoAcquire and you can't use it
    It has a stat set that you can't use, an alt can, but others in your group could use it directly
    You are in Uru/CD and getting class items - anyone who wants something should declare before you start the run, and agree if collecting for alts is OK.

    If no-one takes it, feel free to grab.

    I have picked things up for alts, and had someone who could use it directly ask me for it, to date I haven't refused once, and passed it over at no cost.

    The core here, is we have different experiences, expectations and playstyles - the solution is to talk about it before you get started, with the exception of nodes, if one gets done on you, another will be along in 30 secs just not worth worrying about.

    Finally, I couldn't give a fig about any definitions of Loot Ninja - I care about what I see as good and bad behaviour - I'll call out the bad and put the offender on ignore, then get on with it. Having said all of that, my experience on Imladris (which is only 14 months) has had (very) few negative experiences of this type, in fact I would say the vast majority (including almost all the PuG's) have been great, with people passing things backwards and forwards where accidents occur.

    Try again, I reckno most of the people on this server are pretty d@mn good about this.

  11. #11
    page long flame deleted.

    im amazed that someone posted the definition of a "ninja looter". please. get over yourself. its a game. stop creating drama over nothing. examine your own maturity level if getting "ninja looted" upsets you to the point that you have to post on the forums about it.
    Last edited by husaragi; Jan 31 2013 at 04:23 PM.

 

 

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