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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    I wonder if they could do something to make 1-handed weapons and shields more useful*. Here's my (not completely thought out) suggestion to change the Leader of Men capstone trait:
    1. Remove "When wielding a two-handed weapon you are able to Block".
    2. Add "+30% threat from all sources when wielding a 1-handed weapon."
    3. Optionally add "+30% melee damage when wielding a 1-handed weapon." Add this for balance if 2 doesn't help enough.

    This would make using a shield the best option for tanking, by allowing 1-handed weapons to produce as much threat as 2-handed weapons currently do. Leader of Men captains would still produce much less dps than LtC captains, even with this bonus, and they would produce less healing than HoH captains. Since for tanking it is best to have a dedicated tanking weapon, this shouldn't be too much of a burden for gearing.
    Proper tanking gearing does a good enough job of nerfing DPS and healing for a tanking captain, LoM doesn't need to hurt that further.

    A though for the one hander: maybe S&B should make Aggressive Stance permanent?

    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    (Off the wall suggestion: Maybe they could add these bonuses as an off-hand shield attack as an additional effect on some of our other attack skills.)
    That feels like something a guard or warden would do, and not a captain =/

    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    We have discussed before how Hands of Healing doesn't improve healing over the Lead the Charge traitline as much as it ought. Lead the Charge gives us our most dps, and nearly as much healing as Hands of Healing.Here's my (even less thought out) suggestion for the Hands of Healing trait:
    1. Add "+30%** Outgoing Healing when wielding a 1-handed weapon.

    This would make Hands of Healing clearly the best traitline for producing heals, while not making it overpowered in the "heals + dps" equation***. We could still use a 2-handed weapon, but it would produce less healing than a 1-hander and less dps than it would in LtC. This suggestion would be slightly more onerous for gearing that the previous suggestion, because our dps weapon and healing weapon on live are nearly identical, and we would need to create 2 LIs if we wanted to switch between healing and dps.
    I'm uncertain how valid that statement is anymore.

    With the changes to SoW in RoR, it actually makes Revealing Mark + Song Brother a very viable healing option, and one that I have been using on BR with 85 LIs and healing T2 HM 3 mans fairly successfully.

    However, I think the biggest factor here is Valiant Strike - which actually scales rather well (from about 65% effectiveness at 2 blue up to full strength in a full HoH build). Because the capstone now lists the percentages by skill, VS gets an effective +20% strength bonus from that capstone (real bonus is +40%, but works out to about half when combined with all of the other bonuses to healing).

    The biggest causes of high LtC healing are the +melee and vocal healing legacies, which need to be baked into the HoH traitline bonuses.

    If HoH can get it's healing dominance back (and hopefully that happened with RoR), I can see shields starting to rise in dominance, provided that Turbine takes the mini shields, and replaces will with might.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    Then again, I'm not sure I would be happy with 2-handers only viable in the LtC setup. Any thoughts?
    LtC Capstone allows captains to dual wield? Sword and board does not make sense in a DPS line IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    Edit: Also, increase captain dps overall. C'mon!
    Truthfully, we need about a +50% DPS increase on the LtC capstone to be competitive with the other classes.

    And by competitive, I mean be an interesting DPS alternative with the DPS we bring plus everything else, but not so much personal DPS that we make the hunters QQ even more than they already do (if such is possible that is).
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Proper tanking gearing does a good enough job of nerfing DPS and healing for a tanking captain, LoM doesn't need to hurt that further.

    A though for the one hander: maybe S&B should make Aggressive Stance permanent?
    Good point. All I would really like is to make S&B a viable alternative to a 2-hander for tanking, by just bumping up its threat generation. We could get that by keeping 2-handed blocking and just adding some sort of effect for S&B.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    That feels like something a guard or warden would do, and not a captain =/
    Perhaps, but I would imagine the animations could be done artfully. Maybe they could add "captainy" shield poses or something to the end of a few chosen attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I'm uncertain how valid that statement is anymore.

    With the changes to SoW in RoR, it actually makes Revealing Mark + Song Brother a very viable healing option, and one that I have been using on BR with 85 LIs and healing T2 HM 3 mans fairly successfully.

    However, I think the biggest factor here is Valiant Strike - which actually scales rather well (from about 65% effectiveness at 2 blue up to full strength in a full HoH build). Because the capstone now lists the percentages by skill, VS gets an effective +20% strength bonus from that capstone (real bonus is +40%, but works out to about half when combined with all of the other bonuses to healing).

    The biggest causes of high LtC healing are the +melee and vocal healing legacies, which need to be baked into the HoH traitline bonuses.

    If HoH can get it's healing dominance back (and hopefully that happened with RoR), I can see shields starting to rise in dominance, provided that Turbine takes the mini shields, and replaces will with might.
    This is a good sign. I haven't really checked how much HoH healing has improved yet, but the Valiant Strike change is quite nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    LtC Capstone allows captains to dual wield? Sword and board does not make sense in a DPS line IMO.
    All I meant that if they implemented my suggestions, then S&B would be optimal for HoH and for LoM, so we'd be forced to use 1-handers more often. That probably isn't a good idea. But if HoH healing is improved enough that it outshines LtC in healing output, then S&B could be a nice option for that line without any changes specifically directed toward the S&B playstyle. I wouldn't be too happy with dual wielding captains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Truthfully, we need about a +50% DPS increase on the LtC capstone to be competitive with the other classes.

    And by competitive, I mean be an interesting DPS alternative with the DPS we bring plus everything else, but not so much personal DPS that we make the hunters QQ even more than they already do (if such is possible that is).
    That would be nice.
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
    Maedhric 100 Captain, Nunion 93 Champion, Taraviel 85 Minstrel, etc...

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    Good point. All I would really like is to make S&B a viable alternative to a 2-hander for tanking, by just bumping up its threat generation. We could get that by keeping 2-handed blocking and just adding some sort of effect for S&B.
    But what's should the tradeoff between 2H and S&B for tanking be?

    Hmmm......

    We could just turn this one on it's head and give the non-armor bonuses from a shield to 2H tanking captains (so it functions like a bow, shield would remain on the captain's back), but a one hander gets the halberd threat mechanic, while the shield functions normally.

    This would give a survivability vs threat tradeoff for the S&B vs 2H - you're trading the better survivability for a 1H over the larger stat pool (built in 2H stats) and threat (higher DPS + halberd threat = more threat).

    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    Perhaps, but I would imagine the animations could be done artfully. Maybe they could add "captainy" shield poses or something to the end of a few chosen attacks.
    It's not art so much as how to integrate those skills into the class, and not have it feel really out of place.

    Where would they go?

    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    This is a good sign. I haven't really checked how much HoH healing has improved yet, but the Valiant Strike change is quite nice.
    You can always import to Bullroarer and give it a go with the 3 mans =)

    You can also have designer 85 SA's too.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    All I meant that if they implemented my suggestions, then S&B would be optimal for HoH and for LoM, so we'd be forced to use 1-handers more often. That probably isn't a good idea. But if HoH healing is improved enough that it outshines LtC in healing output, then S&B could be a nice option for that line without any changes specifically directed toward the S&B playstyle. I wouldn't be too happy with dual wielding captains.
    While I would like to see S&B as a more prominent play style, it needs to remain as 6 one way, half dozen the other with two handers.

    What needs to change are the legacies, so that a DPS oriented LI outshines a hybrid LI for DPS, and a healing LI outshines a hybrid LI for healing. We can do too much with just two LIs for the four roles of the class.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  4. #54
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    Adding the following to the LoM capstone:
    ================
    Inspire will transfer a percentage of threat from affected targets to the captain each tick. The captain will be unaffected by the threat transfer.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  5. #55
    All of these changes would make the captain way OP, I do like the idea of stacking HoTs because that would make captain more like an rk. Also the increased crit multiplier would be huge for a captain and the 1 thing that would make captain dps closer to a champs

  6. #56

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    After seeing the changes that RoR brought us, and experimenting with them a bit, it comes time to (once again) generate a list of stuff that should be looked at with our class, and petition Turbine to take these changes to heart, and improve captains.

    With RoI here and gone, we have seen the emergence of the tanking captain. It is still missing an agro copy tool, in addition to having Withdrawal as a skill that you never want to use while tanking.

    Lead the Charge still has some confusion with how it should work, and the DPS it produces is extremely substandard, while it is becoming the Critical Cry healing trait line.

    Hands of Healing received a fairly major boost with RoR, and when combined with the nerf to Shield Brother: Strength of Will, most of the issues with the trait line have largely been resolved.

    To that end, I make the following suggestions with the goal of expanding what the captain class can do, allowing us to tweak traiting and gearing to move between the four roles of LotRO: healing, tanking, DPS, and support. Each of the capstone builds represent one of the primary roles, while the non-capstone build represents the support role.

    Without further ado, the list:
    • Healing and Stacking
      • Words of Courage and Rally Cry stack amongst all captains
      • Rally Cry now stacks with itself indefinitely.
    • Buffs
      • Banner of War
        +Physical Mastery
        +Tactical Mastery
        +Crit

      • Banner of Hope
        +Maximum Morale
        +ICMR
        +Incoming Healing

      • Banner of Victory
        +Physical Mitigation
        +Tactical Mitigation
        +Power
        +ICPR

      • Coldfells Banner
        +Physical Mitigation
        +Tactical Mitigation
        +Physical Mastery
        +Tactical Mastery
    • Items
      • Armaments
        • All armaments will be converted to an item that will enable herald/archer summoning. Because of the proposed changes below to herald/archer, armaments no longer have an armor bonus on them, nor do they control appearances. All armament recipes will be removed, but the armaments will remain purchasable at the class trainer (this is done to maintain sanity with the herald/banner situation).
    • Legacy Changes:
      • The following legacies are being removed:
        • Vocal Skills Healing
        • Melee Skills Healing

        And replaced with:
        • +Routing Cry and Threatening Shout targets
        • BoE reduces SL Cooldown scalar
      • The following legacies are being rolled into their base skills, to allow the devs the ability to introduce other legacies to better support what we do.
        • Motivating Speech
        • Tactics: Relentless Attack
        • Tactics: On Guard
        • Tactics: Focus
        • To Arms duration

        Possible Replacements - Majors:
        • +Skill Threat - Weapon (Halberd-like Threat mechanic)
        • +Melee Skills Crit Magnitude - Weapon
        • +Vocal Skills Crit Magnitude - Emblem

        Possible Replacements - Minors
        • +Inspire HoT Ticks - Weapon
        • +Valiant Strike HoT Ticks - Weapon
      • -Kick Cooldown is increased to 50 seconds from 30 seconds
    • Traitline Changes
      • Lead the Charge
        • The following additions are being made to the traitline:
          • 4 Traits:
            +X * 2% Melee Damage, where X is the number of currently slotted LtC traits
            +5% Melee Critical Chance (unchanged)
        • Because of the changes to War Banner, Captain's Valour is being replaced with:
          Quick Thinking
          Battle Shout, Devastating Blows, Pressing Attack, and Blade of Elendil are all fast skills.
        • Loyalty will be replaced with:
          The Best Defense....
          Withdrawal is replaced with:
          Tactical Advance
          For 30 seconds, +Damage, +Crit, +Critical Magnitude, +Devastate
        • Renewed Voice will also slow the target, in addition to reducing battle shout's cooldown.
        • Precise Ally will be replaced with:
          Relentless Assault
          +50% Damage Skills Critical Magnitude
        • Master of War
          • Heralds and archers can now be summoned in combat.
          • Master of War no longer improves the herald.
          • Master of War Deed grants the Oathbreaker skirmish soldier race attribute.
      • Hands of Healing
        • The following changes are being made to the traitline bonuses:
          • 2 traits:
            +X * 5% Outgoing healing, where X is the number of currently slotted HoH traits
          • 4 Traits:
            +5% Tactical Crit Chance
        • Because of the changes to Hope Banner, Captain's Hope is being replaced with:
          Defensive Tactics
          Defensive Strike armor bonus is fellow wide.
        • Fear no Darkness will cause Words of Courage to stack with itself up to three times, with newer HoT applications replacing the oldest HoT application.
        • Hands of Healing
          Valiant Strike will now battle ready the captain.
      • Leader of Men
        • The following Changes are being made to the traitline:
          • 2 Traits:
            Zero Mark Cooldown
            (CJ Starter is removed)
          • 4 Traits:
            +Level * 2 Critical Defence [150 Crit Defence @ 75]
            +.5% * X Perceived Threat, where X is the number of Leader of Men traits currently slotted.
            Grave Wound Forced Taunt (Unchanged)
        • Because of the changes to Victory Banner, Captain's Victory is being replaced with:
          Agressive Technique
          If a captain is affected by Light of Elendil, using Grave Wound will consume Light of Elendil, but also perform an agro copy.
        • Tacical Prowess is being rolled into To Arms, and will be replaced with:
          Tactical Retreat
          Fighting Withdrawal is now a single target skill that can target anyone in the raid or fellow except the Captain.
        • Leader of Men
          Routing Cry will now battle ready the captain.
          Inspire will transfer a percentage of threat from affected targets to the captain each tick. The captain will be unaffected by the threat transfer.
      • Legendary Traits
        • Fellowship Brother is being replaced with:
          Great Resolve
          +Crit Defence
          +Mitigations
          +Perceived Threat
          +Vit to morale (effective 4 points of morale per point of vit
    • Skills
      • The captain now has dread removal.
      • To Arms duration is increased to 30 seconds.
      • Motivating Speech is increased to 10%. Motivating Speech is also raid-wide.
      • Tactics: Relentless Attack, On Guard, and Focus have their maxed out legacy rolled into the skills. All of the tactics are also raid wide when not targeted, but remain single target when targeted.
      • All versions of Inspire have HoT and PoT components, with the following strengths:
        X-Bro PoT HoT
        Blade Weak Weak
        Shield Weak Strong
        Song Strong Strong
      • Song Brother, Watchful Shield Brother, and Blade Brother are fellowship wide, and grant lesser effects to the non-target fellow members.
      • Song Brother
        • Song Brother loses the healing threat reduction, but gains a tactical mastery bonus.
        • Strength of Will changes to a generic power cost reduction.
    • Heralds and Archers
      • Heralds and Archers now share the damage type of the captain, using the following table:
        Captain Herald/Archer
        Beleriand Beleriand
        Beleriand + Stuff Beleriand
        Westernesse Westernesse
        Westernesse + Stuff Westernesse
        Ancient Dwarf Ancient Dwarf
        Everything Else Common
      • Heralds and Archers retain their summon traits, but now are additional tabs on the skirmish soldier page. The key differences being:
        • Herald and Archers get all of their trait slots initially
        • Heralds and Archers will have an Attribute trait slot permanently reserved for the herald or archer role. This trait will auto level once it is purchased. New tabs will open up once the role is purchased (ie: purchasing the Herald of War trait will grant the Herald of War tab).
        • Heralds will have a Skill trait slot permanently reserved for their Banner, which is an ultimate trait
        • Herald tabs comes with the following autoleveling skill traits slotted:
          • Coordinated Attacks
          • Infuriating Tactics
          • Lend Will
        • Archers will have a Skill trait slot permanently reserved for a personal +crit magnitude ultimate trait.
        • The Archer tab comes with the following autoleveling skills slotted:
          • Sure Aim
          • Barbed Arrows
          • Evasion
        • None of the Herald or Archer Tabs will have Personal trait slots.
      • Heralds and Archers will share skill pools with various skirmish soldier roles:
        • Heralds of War can use Warrior or Bannerguard skill traits
        • Heralds of Hope can use Herbalist or Bannerguard skill traits
        • Heralds of Victory can use Protector or Bannerguard skill traits
        • Archers [Captain Summon] can use Archer [Skirmish soldier] skill traits.
      • Rank 1 of the Following Trainings are granted when you buy the Herald of War Skill:
        • Heavy Armor
        • Physical Potency
        • Tactical Potency
        • Battlefield Finesse
      • Rank 1 of the Following Trainings are granted when you buy the Archer Skill:
        • Medium Armor
        • Practiced Critical
      • To provide an option for those that do not want to skirmish to maintain a herald, the following Training traits will have ranks whose level is less than the captain's level purchasable from the captain class trainer - usable by all unless noted otherwise:
        • Medium Armor (usuable by Archer)
        • Heavy Armor (usable by Heralds)
        • Physical Potency
        • Tactical Potency (usable by heralds)
        • Practiced Critical
        • Battlefield Finesse


    PS: I'm still mulling over how to work Charisma (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...to-many-things) into the above.... I like the mechanic, just haven't done so yet, and want feedback on what's already present.
    First of all....Great post. I appreciate the passion for the cappy as we are usually the most under appreciated class. Secondly, I disagree with some of the banner ideas. I think that they are all great ideas, except for the moors one. I would like to see the tact mit, phys mit, either (+inc healing or debuffs on creeps like the wl banners make our stats less effective), + Crit. I like how Turbine has made the War Banner and the Coldfells banner the same stats when wearing, but the banner on the ground lacks any pazzaz (Yes, I actually used Pazzaz on a forum). So +Tact mit, +phys mit, Debuffs to creeps (Could be limited to affect only creeps and not NPCs for PVE purposes), +crit

  7. #57

    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxoster View Post
    All of these changes would make the captain way OP, I do like the idea of stacking HoTs because that would make captain more like an rk. Also the increased crit multiplier would be huge for a captain and the 1 thing that would make captain dps closer to a champs
    I think cappies need the crit multiplier, and magnitude multiplier. We all know that a captains DPS is completely surrounded by the amount of crits dealt. If I cannot crit on DB or SL, it hurts....a lot. cant crit heal, well there goes your 3-man challenge (so to speak). You know we arent burgs, but it would be nice to have some positional damage capabilities. In the moors, captains are sometimes killed last because we have laughable dps, which allows me to whack stuff from behind alot. This doesnt help if tanking or healing, but would at least provide us with some sort damage output increase. When doing PVE or soloing content, you can use your herald to semi tank stuff while you whack the target from behind for positional damage.

    GIVE ME MORE CRIT, GIVE ME MORE DAMAGE, GIVE ME MORE MITS!!!! is that too much to ask for? I think not.

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,599
    Quote Originally Posted by aadaboy19 View Post
    First of all....Great post. I appreciate the passion for the cappy as we are usually the most under appreciated class. Secondly, I disagree with some of the banner ideas. I think that they are all great ideas, except for the moors one. I would like to see the tact mit, phys mit, either (+inc healing or debuffs on creeps like the wl banners make our stats less effective), + Crit. I like how Turbine has made the War Banner and the Coldfells banner the same stats when wearing, but the banner on the ground lacks any pazzaz (Yes, I actually used Pazzaz on a forum). So +Tact mit, +phys mit, Debuffs to creeps (Could be limited to affect only creeps and not NPCs for PVE purposes), +crit
    I do like the creep debuff idea.... but what should it be though?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

 

 
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