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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,629

    Suggested Captain Changes Post RoR

    After seeing the changes that RoR brought us, and experimenting with them a bit, it comes time to (once again) generate a list of stuff that should be looked at with our class, and petition Turbine to take these changes to heart, and improve captains.

    With RoI here and gone, we have seen the emergence of the tanking captain. It is still missing an agro copy tool, in addition to having Withdrawal as a skill that you never want to use while tanking.

    Lead the Charge still has some confusion with how it should work, and the DPS it produces is extremely substandard, while it is becoming the Critical Cry healing trait line.

    Hands of Healing received a fairly major boost with RoR, and when combined with the nerf to Shield Brother: Strength of Will, most of the issues with the trait line have largely been resolved.

    To that end, I make the following suggestions with the goal of expanding what the captain class can do, allowing us to tweak traiting and gearing to move between the four roles of LotRO: healing, tanking, DPS, and support. Each of the capstone builds represent one of the primary roles, while the non-capstone build represents the support role.

    Without further ado, the list:
    • Healing and Stacking
      • Words of Courage and Rally Cry stack amongst all captains
      • Rally Cry now stacks with itself indefinitely.
    • Buffs
      • Banner of War
        +Physical Mastery
        +Tactical Mastery
        +Crit

      • Banner of Hope
        +Maximum Morale
        +ICMR
        +Incoming Healing

      • Banner of Victory
        +Physical Mitigation
        +Tactical Mitigation
        +Power
        +ICPR

      • Coldfells Banner
        +Physical Mitigation
        +Tactical Mitigation
        +Physical Mastery
        +Tactical Mastery
    • Items
      • Armaments
        • All armaments will be converted to an item that will enable herald/archer summoning. Because of the proposed changes below to herald/archer, armaments no longer have an armor bonus on them, nor do they control appearances. All armament recipes will be removed, but the armaments will remain purchasable at the class trainer (this is done to maintain sanity with the herald/banner situation).
    • Legacy Changes:
      • The following legacies are being removed:
        • Vocal Skills Healing
        • Melee Skills Healing

        And replaced with:
        • +Routing Cry and Threatening Shout targets
        • BoE reduces SL Cooldown scalar
      • The following legacies are being rolled into their base skills, to allow the devs the ability to introduce other legacies to better support what we do.
        • Motivating Speech
        • Tactics: Relentless Attack
        • Tactics: On Guard
        • Tactics: Focus
        • To Arms duration

        Possible Replacements - Majors:
        • +Skill Threat - Weapon (Halberd-like Threat mechanic)
        • +Melee Skills Crit Magnitude - Weapon
        • +Vocal Skills Crit Magnitude - Emblem

        Possible Replacements - Minors
        • +Inspire HoT Ticks - Weapon
        • +Valiant Strike HoT Ticks - Weapon
      • -Kick Cooldown is increased to 50 seconds from 30 seconds
    • Traitline Changes
      • Lead the Charge
        • The following additions are being made to the traitline:
          • 4 Traits:
            +X * 2% Melee Damage, where X is the number of currently slotted LtC traits
            +5% Melee Critical Chance (unchanged)
        • Because of the changes to War Banner, Captain's Valour is being replaced with:
          Quick Thinking
          Battle Shout, Devastating Blows, Pressing Attack, and Blade of Elendil are all fast skills.
        • Loyalty will be replaced with:
          The Best Defense....
          Withdrawal is replaced with:
          Tactical Advance
          For 30 seconds, +Damage, +Crit, +Critical Magnitude, +Devastate
        • Renewed Voice will also slow the target, in addition to reducing battle shout's cooldown.
        • Precise Ally will be replaced with:
          Relentless Assault
          +50% Damage Skills Critical Magnitude
        • Master of War
          • Heralds and archers can now be summoned in combat.
          • Master of War no longer improves the herald.
          • Master of War Deed grants the Oathbreaker skirmish soldier race attribute.
      • Hands of Healing
        • The following changes are being made to the traitline bonuses:
          • 2 traits:
            +X * 5% Outgoing healing, where X is the number of currently slotted HoH traits
          • 4 Traits:
            +5% Tactical Crit Chance
        • Because of the changes to Hope Banner, Captain's Hope is being replaced with:
          Defensive Tactics
          Defensive Strike armor bonus is fellow wide.
        • Fear no Darkness will cause Words of Courage to stack with itself up to three times, with newer HoT applications replacing the oldest HoT application.
        • Hands of Healing
          Valiant Strike will now battle ready the captain.
      • Leader of Men
        • The following Changes are being made to the traitline:
          • 2 Traits:
            Zero Mark Cooldown
            (CJ Starter is removed)
          • 4 Traits:
            +Level * 2 Critical Defence [150 Crit Defence @ 75]
            +.5% * X Perceived Threat, where X is the number of Leader of Men traits currently slotted.
            Grave Wound Forced Taunt (Unchanged)
        • Because of the changes to Victory Banner, Captain's Victory is being replaced with:
          Agressive Technique
          If a captain is affected by Light of Elendil, using Grave Wound will consume Light of Elendil, but also perform an agro copy.
        • Tacical Prowess is being rolled into To Arms, and will be replaced with:
          Tactical Retreat
          Fighting Withdrawal is now a single target skill that can target anyone in the raid or fellow except the Captain.
        • Leader of Men
          Routing Cry will now battle ready the captain.
          Inspire will transfer a percentage of threat from affected targets to the captain each tick. The captain will be unaffected by the threat transfer.
      • Legendary Traits
        • Fellowship Brother is being replaced with:
          Great Resolve
          +Crit Defence
          +Mitigations
          +Perceived Threat
          +Vit to morale (effective 4 points of morale per point of vit
    • Skills
      • The captain now has dread removal.
      • To Arms duration is increased to 30 seconds.
      • Motivating Speech is increased to 10%. Motivating Speech is also raid-wide.
      • Tactics: Relentless Attack, On Guard, and Focus have their maxed out legacy rolled into the skills. All of the tactics are also raid wide when not targeted, but remain single target when targeted.
      • All versions of Inspire have HoT and PoT components, with the following strengths:
        X-Bro PoT HoT
        Blade Weak Weak
        Shield Weak Strong
        Song Strong Strong
      • Song Brother, Watchful Shield Brother, and Blade Brother are fellowship wide, and grant lesser effects to the non-target fellow members.
      • Song Brother
        • Song Brother loses the healing threat reduction, but gains a tactical mastery bonus.
        • Strength of Will changes to a generic power cost reduction.
    • Heralds and Archers
      • Heralds and Archers now share the damage type of the captain, using the following table:
        Captain Herald/Archer
        Beleriand Beleriand
        Beleriand + Stuff Beleriand
        Westernesse Westernesse
        Westernesse + Stuff Westernesse
        Ancient Dwarf Ancient Dwarf
        Everything Else Common
      • Heralds and Archers retain their summon traits, but now are additional tabs on the skirmish soldier page. The key differences being:
        • Herald and Archers get all of their trait slots initially
        • Heralds and Archers will have an Attribute trait slot permanently reserved for the herald or archer role. This trait will auto level once it is purchased. New tabs will open up once the role is purchased (ie: purchasing the Herald of War trait will grant the Herald of War tab).
        • Heralds will have a Skill trait slot permanently reserved for their Banner, which is an ultimate trait
        • Herald tabs comes with the following autoleveling skill traits slotted:
          • Coordinated Attacks
          • Infuriating Tactics
          • Lend Will
        • Archers will have a Skill trait slot permanently reserved for a personal +crit magnitude ultimate trait.
        • The Archer tab comes with the following autoleveling skills slotted:
          • Sure Aim
          • Barbed Arrows
          • Evasion
        • None of the Herald or Archer Tabs will have Personal trait slots.
      • Heralds and Archers will share skill pools with various skirmish soldier roles:
        • Heralds of War can use Warrior or Bannerguard skill traits
        • Heralds of Hope can use Herbalist or Bannerguard skill traits
        • Heralds of Victory can use Protector or Bannerguard skill traits
        • Archers [Captain Summon] can use Archer [Skirmish soldier] skill traits.
      • Rank 1 of the Following Trainings are granted when you buy the Herald of War Skill:
        • Heavy Armor
        • Physical Potency
        • Tactical Potency
        • Battlefield Finesse
      • Rank 1 of the Following Trainings are granted when you buy the Archer Skill:
        • Medium Armor
        • Practiced Critical
      • To provide an option for those that do not want to skirmish to maintain a herald, the following Training traits will have ranks whose level is less than the captain's level purchasable from the captain class trainer - usable by all unless noted otherwise:
        • Medium Armor (usuable by Archer)
        • Heavy Armor (usable by Heralds)
        • Physical Potency
        • Tactical Potency (usable by heralds)
        • Practiced Critical
        • Battlefield Finesse


    PS: I'm still mulling over how to work Charisma (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...to-many-things) into the above.... I like the mechanic, just haven't done so yet, and want feedback on what's already present.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Dec 12 2012 at 06:45 AM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,864
    I must say, while some of the changes are really good ideas, I think it's way, way over the top here. I see it much more as a list of suggestions where a few of them could be implemented, implementing ALL of them would make Captains seriously OP as I see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Without further ado, the list:
    • Healing and Stacking
      • Words of Courage and Rally Cry stack amogns all captains
      • Rally Cry now stacks with itself indefinitely.
    • Buffs
      • Banner of War
        +Physical Mastery
        +Tactical Mastery
        +Crit

      • Banner of Hope
        +Maximum Morale
        +ICMR
        +Incoming Healing

      • Banner of Victory
        +Physical Mitigation
        +Tactical Mitigation
        +Power
        +ICPR

      • Coldfells Banner
        +Physical Mitigation
        +Tactical Mitigation
        +Physical Mastery
        +Tactical Mastery
    I like this a lot - I don't know whether it should be all of the bonuses on 1 banner, but I'd like to at least have the choice between having Physical and Tactical Mastery on my banner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    • Items
      • All herald appearances are now gained through a talisman-like mechanic, similar to how LMs gain pet appearances, but the talismans teach skirmish soldier appearances.
      • Armaments
        • All armaments have the following stats on them:
          +Maximum Morale
          +Physical Mastery
    The change to herald appearences seem like a lot of work for pretty much no gain - but then again I'll admit I could not care less about herald appearence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    [*]Legacy Changes:
    • The following legacies are being rolled into their base skills, to allow the devs the ability to introduce other legacies to better support what we do.
      • Motivating Speech
      • Tactics: Relentless Attack
      • Tactics: On Guard
      • Tactics: Focus
      • To Arms duration

      Possible Replacements - Majors:
      • +Skill Threat - Weapon (Halberd-like Threat mechanic)
      • +Melee Skills Crit Magnitude - Weapon
      • +Vocal Skills Crit Magnitude - Emblem

      Possible Replacements - Minors
      • +Inspire HoT Ticks - Weapon
      • +Valiant Strike HoT Ticks - Weapon
    • -Kick Cooldown is increased to 50 seconds from 30 seconds
    I guess getting rid of the buffstick would be nice, at least as a QoL upgrade.
    Crit magnitude would be a nice addition, and something that has potential to make HoH and LtC LIs look different from each other - so I guess the effort saved on making a buffstick would be used to make a HoH and LtC setup instead.
    I'm not sure I'd use the legacies with extra HoT ticks, but I won't rule it out either.
    10s cooldown on Kick would be OP imo, at least when you're traited 2 yellows for CJ chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    [*]Traitline Changes
    • Lead the Charge
      • The following additions are being made to the traitline:
        • 4 Traits:
          +X * 2% Melee Damage, where X is the number of currently slotted LtC traits
      • Because of the changes to War Banner, Captain's Valour is being replaced with:
        Quick Thinking
        Battle Shout, Shadow's Lament, Devastating Blows, Pressing Attack, and Blade of Elendil are all fast skills.
      • Loyalty will be replaced with:
        The Best Defense....
        Withdrawal is replaced with:
        Tactical Advance
        For 30seconds, +Damage, +Crit, +Critical Magintude, +Devastate
      • Precise Ally will be replaced with:
        Shadows of the Argonath
        Grave Wound cannot proc Agressive Stance
      • Master of War
        • Heralds and archers can now be summonned in combat.
        • Master of War no longer improves the herald.
        • Master of War grants the Oathbreaker skirmish soldier race attribute.
    • Hands of Healing
      • The following additions are being made to the traitline:
        • 4 Traits:
          +X * 2% Outgoing Healing, where X is the number of currently slotted HoH traits
      • Because of the changes to Hope Banner, Captain's Hope is being replaced with:
        Effective Motivation
        HoT and PoT tick crits will generate a defeat response.
      • Fear no Darkness will cause Words of Courage to stack with itself up to three times, with newer HoT applications replacing the oldest HoT application.
    • Leader of Men
      • The following Changes are being made to the traitline:
        • 4 Traits:
          +Level * 2 Critical Defence [150 Crit Defence @ 75]
          +.5% * X Perceived Threat, where X is the number of Leader of Men traits currently slotted.
      • Because of the changes to Victory Banner, Captain's Victory is being replaced with:
        Agressive Technique
        If a captain is affected by Light of Elendil, using Grave Wound will consume Light of Elendil, but also perform an agro copy.
      • Tacical Prowess is being rolled into To Arms, and will be replaced with Tactical Retreat:
        Fighting Withdrawal is now a raid wide targetable skill, but the Captain cannot be targeted.
    • Legendary Traits
      • Fellowship Brother is being replaced with:
        Great Resolve
        +Crit Defence
        +Mitigations
        +Perceived Threat
        +Vit to morale (effective 4 points of morale per point of vit
    LtC already has a EPIC 4-set bonus, getting anymore than that would be way over the top imo, and losing the 5% crit chance would just plain suck. Instead, I'd much rather see HoH get a +x% crit chance to Tactical/Healing skills.
    I'm not sure how big the effect of Quick Thinking would be, but I guess that'd be a must-have for a LtC build?
    Tactical Advance sounds good, but making a skill change radically depending on a trait adds some complexity to the class, I'm not sure that's a good idea.
    Shadow of the Argonath is rubbish IMO, getting rid of the +10% perceived threat buff seems like a very, very small LtC buff, especially with stuff like Quick Thinking next to it.

    Effective Motivation seems extremely overpowered. As a Captain you potentially have Valiant Strike HoT, Inspire HoT, Inspire PoT, RC HoT, RC PoT, WoC HoT with up to 6 targets for each every 3 seconds. For a full fellowship, that's easily 30 ticks every 3 seconds and we just need one of them to crit to get a defeat response.
    Fear No Darkness change seems good.

    Tactical Retreat calls for exploiting imo: Kick Tank from raid, apply Tactical Retreat, reinvite tank and raid can go full DPS without having to think much about aggro.

    Great Resolve has been suggested before, and I still like it. However, I think it should be added as a capstone to LoM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    • Skills
      • The captain now has dread removal.
      • To Arms duration is increased to 30 seconds.
      • Motivating Speech is increased to 10%.
      • Tactics: Relentless Attack, On Guard, and Focus have their maxed out legacy rolled into the skills.
      • Song Brother
        • Song Brother loses the healing threat reduction, but gains a tactical mastery bonus.
        • Song Brother is now fellowship wide, and grants lesser effects to the fellow.
        • Strength of Will changes to a generic power cost reduction.
        • Inspire gains a HoT equivalent to the current Shield Brother Inspire, making Song Brother's inspire a high powered version of Blade Brother's Inspire.
      • Shield Brother
        • Improved Shield Brother is now fellowship wide, and grants lesser effects to the fellow. The original Shield Brother is still single target only.
        • Strength of Will is increased to 20%
        • Inspire gains a PoT equivalent to Blade Brother's Inspire's PoT.
      • Blade Brother
        • Blade Brother is now fellowship wide, and grants lesser effects to the fellow.
    • Heralds and Archers
      • Heralds and Archers now share the damage type of the captain, using the following table:
        Captain Herald/Archer
        Beleriand Beleriand
        Beleriand + Stuff Beleriand
        Westernesse Westernesse
        Westernesse + Stuff Westernesse
        Ancient Dwarf Ancient Dwarf
        Everything Else Common
      • Heralds and Archers retain their summon traits, but now are additional tabs on the skirmish soldier page. The key differences being:
        • Herald and Archers get all of their trait slots initially
        • Heralds and Archers will have an Attribute trait slot permanently reserved for the herald or archer role. This trait will auto level once it is purchased. New tabs will open up once the role is purchased (ie: purchasing the Herald of War trait will grant the Herald of War tab).
        • Heralds will have a Skill trait slot permanently reserved for their Banner, which is an ultimate trait
        • Herald tabs comes with the following autoleveling skill traits slotted:
          • Coordinated Attacks
          • Infuriating Tactics
          • Lend Will
        • Archers will have a Skill trait slot permanently reserved for a personal +crit magnitude ultimate trait.
        • The Archer tab comes with the following autoleveling skills slotted:
          • Sure Aim
          • Barbed Arrows
          • Evasion
        • None of the Herald or Archer Tabs will have Personal trait slots.
      • Heralds and Archers will share skill pools with various skirmish soldier roles:
        • Heralds of War can use warrior skill traits
        • Heralds of Hope can use herbalist skill traits
        • Heralds of Victory can use protector skill traits
        • Archers [Captain Summon] can use Archer [Skirmish soldier] skill traits.
      • To provide an option for those that do not want to skirmish to maintain a herald, the following Training traits will have ranks whose level is less than the captain's level purchasable from the captain class trainer - usable by all unless noted otherwise:
        • Medium Armor (usuable by Archer)
        • Heavy Armor (usable by Heralds)
        • Physical Potency
        • Tactical Potency (usable by heralds)
        • Practiced Critical
        • Battlefield Finesse
    Changes look ok, but I really could not care less about Heralds (and I'd much rather see devs work on something more important), they're just a target for your X-brother when you're soloing.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Nov 12 2012 at 01:42 AM.

  3. #3
    From point of player view these are just wow suggestions. Really impressive work. All suggestions would made captain gameplay even more proactive and complex. I.E. changing standards on trash / boss, using fighting withdrawal which is changing on traitline are really well thought. Legacy changes also really strongly supports all traitlines / captain utility / universality. Minor tweaks like dread removal is just icing on the cake. After I finished reading your post I was feeling like having christmas. Now to traitlines:


    - You got rid of FB - freeing one Leg trait and melting FB benefits to basic brother skills.
    - You made rougly 15% - 20 % or even more increase in DPS for red captains. Fast skills for our main DPS skills + raw dmg increase.
    - You made yellow captains tanks almost equal to guardians/wardens. Threat copy is damn awesome.

    Now let's look on you suggestions from point of developer view or player who doesn't play captain. After all this was implemented there would remain only captains and cc classes. Nobody would play anything else because you presented captains as all in one. We can main tank, dps, heal + be exceptional buffers along the way.

    Other classes have usually primary role and secondary one. Champs dps and tanks. RKs heal and dps. Guards tanks and dps. Wardens tanks and dps. Burgs dps and cc + debuff. LMs dps and cc + debuff. List go on.

    Now look at current cappy: We can buff no matter what and our primary role in fellowship is to buff. We can mainheal all 3/6 even skraid content. We can tank all 3/6 mans and past raids on t1. Only thing we can't do is proper DPS. So right now we have primary role + 2 pretty good secondary roles. Which class has this?

    After implementing your changes we enhance even our last weak spot + all others. This just won't happen due to gameplay balance. Captains as much as I would love to see this in live would be insanely OP class. But this changes nothing or really good suggestions you made on legacies, melting tactics to basic skills etc.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post


      • Banner of War
        +Physical Mastery
        +Tactical Mastery
        +Crit

    It still boggles my mind that this hasn't happened yet. Our current war banner is so rarely used it has become the solo banner, which is an oxymoron I believe.

    Looking at the dps line the power there seems OP when you look at it from a dps class reference. However our class is so very far away from a dps class that I just can't see any of it pushing us into the OP category, and here's why.

    The fast attack speed seems like a lot, but it would be gated by the cooldowns of those same skills. It would only allow you to get in things like sure strike, Defensive strike, and bleed combo in more easily without having to slow down your dps rotation. Or in other words it would put your normal 3 and 3 dps rotations all on cd very quickly with a good bit of time to put in your other attacks before that rotation comes back up.

    2% increase is very minor. Go past 6x and you lose now for wrath, but 12% doesn't move us any where near the 4 and 5k dps of a dps class.

    Tactical Advance
    For 30seconds, +Damage, +Crit, +Critical Magintude, +Devastate
    This is probably the strongest buff, if you are built for it. but in 30 seconds how many times will you devastate or crit?

    any way none of the dps looked OP to me. The defeat response should be moved to something other than hot ticks otherwise I think it would always be up, maybe on the melee portion of valiant strike.
    Last edited by Armitas; Nov 12 2012 at 07:44 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/022040000000c7eb3/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    [CENTER]
    [/CENTER]

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Watertown, MA
    Posts
    2,915
    Well thought out, as usual. Like Elrantiri, I think quite a few bits are a little over the top, but the suggestions are mostly very good.

    #1 pet peeve/suggestion for the Captain class: kill buffsticks with fire, never look back. Passive buffing is not a fun mechanic, and the fact that we have to invest the resources we do into passive buffing is just silly.

    For Fighting Withdrawal, I think it's actually fine except for the part where it's actively counter-productive in LoM. So I like the suggestion for Tactical Retreat, but not the other ones.

    Defeat responses from HoT/PoT ticks is insane. I'm not sure why you make such a radical suggestion after saying that the problems with HoH pretty much got fixed. HoH could use more defeat responses, but I would suggest that they come from Valiant Strike instead, if anything.

    Re: Kick. This is a very irritating skill, and it all comes down to the FM starter. A 10% chance is far too low to depend on, but it also means that the skill can't be spammable enough to be useful as an interrupt. Turbine needs to make a decision about this skill: is it an interrupt or an FM starter? Only when they decide that can it be balanced properly.

    (Which comes to an irritating thing about FMs in general -- 99% of the time, you're better off ignoring one if it pops up and just treating it as a stun. IMO, they should fix the FM mechanic so that players keep auto-attacking after locking in their contribution.)
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  6. #6
    I think the biggest thing to move us towards letting us become a main healer in more varied situations would be to let our heals stack. Especially since now our Valiant Strike has a higher potential for overlap.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    2,367
    good stuff, as usual!

    my mind started to wander, so i only read half

    really like the "quick thinking" trait and idea!

    the Grave Wound trait seems a bit lacking... still more useful than precise ally.
    "I am always serious; I am never serious." -Me
    "I make the most outrageous and exaggerated statements of any man to ever live, has ever lived, or that will ever live." -Me

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,629
    Thanks for the feedback!

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    I like this a lot - I don't know whether it should be all of the bonuses on 1 banner, but I'd like to at least have the choice between having Physical and Tactical Mastery on my banner.
    The problem with splitting physical and tactical mastery is that one is useful to some of the classes, yet not others - which is why the war banner is currently situational at best, rather than a universally good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    The change to herald appearences seem like a lot of work for pretty much no gain - but then again I'll admit I could not care less about herald appearence.
    I figure the easiest way to give those of us who would like to use heralds the tools we need without making dead traits to the captains that do not want to use them is to integrate the heralds into the skirmish system. Perhaps the best thing would be to remove the talismans completely, and just use the skirmish system cosmetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    10s cooldown on Kick would be OP imo, at least when you're traited 2 yellows for CJ chance.
    Didn't factor that one in, and you're right with that >.<

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    LtC already has a EPIC 4-set bonus, getting anymore than that would be way over the top imo, and losing the 5% crit chance would just plain suck. Instead, I'd much rather see HoH get a +x% crit chance to Tactical/Healing skills.
    Already stated the changes are additive, so none of them are lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Tactical Advance sounds good, but making a skill change radically depending on a trait adds some complexity to the class, I'm not sure that's a good idea.
    Most captains consider Withdrawal a very useless skill, this is an attempt to give more options for that skill, which (IMO) flows with the idea that the captain is a class about options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Effective Motivation seems extremely overpowered. As a Captain you potentially have Valiant Strike HoT, Inspire HoT, Inspire PoT, RC HoT, RC PoT, WoC HoT with up to 6 targets for each every 3 seconds. For a full fellowship, that's easily 30 ticks every 3 seconds and we just need one of them to crit to get a defeat response.
    Fear No Darkness change seems good.
    It needs tweaking - it's an attempt to pull the banner trait and put something into a line with no obvious holes left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Tactical Retreat calls for exploiting imo: Kick Tank from raid, apply Tactical Retreat, reinvite tank and raid can go full DPS without having to think much about aggro.
    Eh, it likely needs tweaking, but I'm trying to address the problem of Withdrawal while tanking (which is the only skill that is actively harmful towards what you are trying to do).

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Great Resolve has been suggested before, and I still like it. However, I think it should be added as a capstone to LoM.
    This helps fill out the legendary roster with a trait that is about as strong as SotD, to give us choice with the legendaries (we have far too many really strong legendaries as is). By not tying it to a capstone, it allows the captain more flexibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by EazyPeazy View Post
    Now let's look on you suggestions from point of developer view or player who doesn't play captain. After all this was implemented there would remain only captains and cc classes. Nobody would play anything else because you presented captains as all in one. We can main tank, dps, heal + be exceptional buffers along the way.

    Other classes have usually primary role and secondary one. Champs dps and tanks. RKs heal and dps. Guards tanks and dps. Wardens tanks and dps. Burgs dps and cc + debuff. LMs dps and cc + debuff. List go on.

    Now look at current cappy: We can buff no matter what and our primary role in fellowship is to buff. We can mainheal all 3/6 even skraid content. We can tank all 3/6 mans and past raids on t1. Only thing we can't do is proper DPS. So right now we have primary role + 2 pretty good secondary roles. Which class has this?
    I highly doubt this will ever come to pass. Our out of combat buffs don't stack, and while the XBros stack, minis out buff us in combat. There's still holes in our DPS (we can't AE to save ourselves).

    Currently, we are about 50% of a primary DPSer, assuming the above comes out to be a 30% DPS increase, that comes out to be...
    .5 * 1.3 = 65% of a primary DPSer. I doubt we will be replacing the DPSers any time soon. However, with the above changes, LtC will become a more viable DPS alternative.

    As far as tanking and healing goes.... how many PUGs have you been in where you've got all the stuff but a healer and/or a tank? I see adding more tanks and healers to the pool as nothing but a good thing. There's still enough nuances with our healing and tanking that other classes are better choices in various situations.

    Either way, the devs know what balance they want, and know how to implement it. You are not a dev, so there's no way you know what they see as balanced or unbalanced (since almost all MMO players tend to bark "It's unbalanced")

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    any way none of the dps looked OP to me. The defeat response should be moved to something other than hot ticks otherwise I think it would always be up, maybe on the melee portion of valiant strike.
    That would be a good place for it. IMO, there needs to be a way for the other trait lines to produce defeat responses at the same rate as LtC can.

    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Re: Kick. This is a very irritating skill, and it all comes down to the FM starter. A 10% chance is far too low to depend on, but it also means that the skill can't be spammable enough to be useful as an interrupt. Turbine needs to make a decision about this skill: is it an interrupt or an FM starter? Only when they decide that can it be balanced properly.
    I'd rather lose the FM starter and gain an interrupt than go the other way.

    Quote Originally Posted by SapienChavez View Post
    the Grave Wound trait seems a bit lacking... still more useful than precise ally.
    It's trying to solve the problem the problem of no clue what to add to a line that's basically there with 7 traits. It definitely needs work.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    The problem with splitting physical and tactical mastery is that one is useful to some of the classes, yet not others - which is why the war banner is currently situational at best, rather than a universally good thing.
    Ah, I misread then. I thought those buffs were only for the Captain - atm. Hope banner gives like 2k morale and 4-5k physical mastery to the Captain - what I'd like to see is that we could get Hope banners that gave the Captain 2k morale and 4-5k tactical mastery as physical mastery is almost pointless when going full HoH.

    Anyway, I think it's a good idea to change the buffs given to fellowship as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I figure the easiest way to give those of us who would like to use heralds the tools we need without making dead traits to the captains that do not want to use them is to integrate the heralds into the skirmish system. Perhaps the best thing would be to remove the talismans completely, and just use the skirmish system cosmetics.
    Yeah I guess that'd be the best way of doing that. I would probably use herald more too if they didn't suck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Already stated the changes are additive, so none of them are lost.
    Yeah I know, I just think that's a very big set bonus, especially when +5% melee crit is already a very nice bonus by itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Most captains consider Withdrawal a very useless skill, this is an attempt to give more options for that skill, which (IMO) flows with the idea that the captain is a class about options.
    I agree to some extent, I've never had to use it in a kinship run, however, for some pugs I tend to get aggro of more stuff than the tank and at that point it can be nice to let go of some of that aggro.
    I like the alternative you're giving, but I'd probably be a bigger fan of throwing out Withdrawal and have Tactical Advance instead regardless of traits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    It needs tweaking - it's an attempt to pull the banner trait and put something into a line with no obvious holes left.
    Hmm, what about some of these for ideas:
    1. +X seconds duration to defeat events (much like the legacy, it'd give the Captain more freedom in choosing when to pop that defeat event)
    2. Sure Strike removes an additional x seconds from Battle-Shout cooldown (e.g. 3 without trait, 5 with trait)
    3. +x% Outgoing healing
    4. Armor buff from Defensive Strike becomes fellowship-wide

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Eh, it likely needs tweaking, but I'm trying to address the problem of Withdrawal while tanking (which is the only skill that is actively harmful towards what you are trying to do).
    Yeah I get that, I just have to say I see a lot of issues with a fellowship/raid wide threat modifier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    This helps fill out the legendary roster with a trait that is about as strong as SotD, to give us choice with the legendaries (we have far too many really strong legendaries as is). By not tying it to a capstone, it allows the captain more flexibility.
    I agree, however that's expecting Fellowship-brother to become a passive, and while I'd love it, I just don't see that happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I highly doubt this will ever come to pass. Our out of combat buffs don't stack, and while the XBros stack, minis out buff us in combat. There's still holes in our DPS (we can't AE to save ourselves).

    Currently, we are about 50% of a primary DPSer, assuming the above comes out to be a 30% DPS increase, that comes out to be...
    .5 * 1.3 = 65% of a primary DPSer. I doubt we will be replacing the DPSers any time soon. However, with the above changes, LtC will become a more viable DPS alternative.

    As far as tanking and healing goes.... how many PUGs have you been in where you've got all the stuff but a healer and/or a tank? I see adding more tanks and healers to the pool as nothing but a good thing. There's still enough nuances with our healing and tanking that other classes are better choices in various situations.

    Either way, the devs know what balance they want, and know how to implement it. You are not a dev, so there's no way you know what they see as balanced or unbalanced (since almost all MMO players tend to bark "It's unbalanced")
    Still, I gotta say considering how Captains already got a secure spot in almost all fellowships, they should not be boosted that much more or we might get to a point where Captains outshine the other classes more than they already do :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    That would be a good place for it. IMO, there needs to be a way for the other trait lines to produce defeat responses at the same rate as LtC can.
    While I agree there should be more way to get defeat responses, adding them directly to a class trait seems a bit OP to me - I'd guess that class trait would be used in almost all setup. Even LtC relies on more than just using a skill, it has to at least crit to give that defeat event.

    I've already proposed some ideas for traits above, I'd think having Sure Strike remove more cooldown from Battle-shout could be that HoH trait that'd give more PA/DBs and thus more defeat events without being a trait you'd really want to use in LtC or LoM as you'd lose good alternatives such as NfW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I'd rather lose the FM starter and gain an interrupt than go the other way.
    Same, but I guess that's mostly because CJs just aren't that good anymore. Champs and Hunters pretty much ignore red and yellow CJs because they're better off just DPS'ing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    It's trying to solve the problem the problem of no clue what to add to a line that's basically there with 7 traits. It definitely needs work.
    Make the trait increase the bleed on both Cutting Attack and Grave Wound?

  10. #10
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    +rep for that OP.

    Excellent post.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post

    Effective Motivation
    HoT and PoT tick crits will generate a defeat response.
    lol

    Just the most funny suggestion out of a lot of weird things
    Last edited by Nebukadnezar; Nov 14 2012 at 07:37 AM.
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  12. #12
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    On lead the charge dont change the +5% crit chance..seriously..

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  13. #13
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    lol with all the respect, how can u not be satisfied with where captains r right now?? we keep getting more and more of nice and useful upgrades each update and expansion unlike some other classes.

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    Made some changes to the OP and they are:

    Clean up:
    Items => Scrapped the talisman idea - It's redudant with the skirmish system
    LoM => Tactical Retreat - rewrote it for clarity
    Skills => Shield Bro SoW Change - Did not get updated from the prior version, removed because it's no longer relevant.
    Added all of the four trait bonuses to all of the traitline changes.... getting tired of pointing out that +5% melee crit isn't changing cause people are skimming....

    Capstone Changes
    HoH => VS Battle Ready's
    LoM => Routing Cry Battle Ready's

    Traits:
    LtC:
    Flanking Attack
    Positional Damage bonus on DB, PA, and BoE.
    Grave Wound cannot proc Agressive Stance

    HoH:
    Taking one from Elrantiri:
    Defensive Tactics
    Defensive Strike armor bonus is fellow wide

    Trait Lines:
    LoM:
    2 trait loses CJ starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar View Post
    lol

    Just the most funny suggestion out of a lot of weird things
    Can you elaborate on why the stuff is weird?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangaar View Post
    On lead the charge dont change the +5% crit chance..seriously..
    Changes are additive, +5% crit chance doesn't change.......

    Quote Originally Posted by sarefx View Post
    lol with all the respect, how can u not be satisfied with where captains r right now?? we keep getting more and more of nice and useful upgrades each update and expansion unlike some other classes.
    I see holes that I think need to be fixed, and keep pushing to have those fixed.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Nov 14 2012 at 11:02 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Still, I gotta say considering how Captains already got a secure spot in almost all fellowships, they should not be boosted that much more or we might get to a point where Captains outshine the other classes more than they already do :P
    Eh.... one captain in a group is awesome, two is pretty much verboten going by GLFF. That needs to change, and by allowing captains to sufficiently fill other roles, it will help.

    More so if it's harder to level captains because we don't start seeing something that resembles DPS until we're in our 50's.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  16. #16
    You should add to the HoH section of your post a change to Song-brother to eliminate the redundancy that exists between Strength of Will and Inspire. Maybe turn Strength of Will into an increased crit chance for healing skills?

    Also, each capstone should grant the Captain the benefits of its corresponding brother skill when using ANY brother skill on an ally, not just the corresponding one. For example an HoH Captain could use Shield-brother on a tank in a boss fight and not worry about his power (it's terrible design to force heal traited Captains to reduce the survivability of their tank in order to not run out of power - absolutely preposterous)

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post

    Can you elaborate on why the stuff is weird?


    About the HoT-tick Crit creating defeat response you already realized yourself I guess because you took it out of your initial post.

    About your Inspire suggestions:
    - You want to add additional HoT ticks via legacy, but Inspire-duration=CD and it will never stack, so what is the point?

    - You want to add the strong PoT from Songbrother-Inspire to Shieldbrother-Inspire and vice versa, so both Song- and Shield-Brother Inspire would be exactly the same and additionally a stronger HoT AND PoT then Bladebrother-Inspire!? What sense makes that?

    edit:
    And our most powerful legendary trait('fellowship brother') as a passiv. Don't you think that would be overpowered?
    Positional Damage for a Captain??? Am I a sneaky ... who is attacking from behind or a brave Captain and Leader?
    Last edited by Nebukadnezar; Nov 15 2012 at 09:05 AM.
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  18. #18
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    i like the kick legacy change idea. a 10s kick would really help. im a big fan of kick CD already, but 30s is just barly passable as an acceptable interrupt CD. its not like were asking for Addle here! (unless kick went all Johnny Cage Shadow Kick and also closed the gap to our target. but that gets too much like other MMOs... LOTRO is more... grounded and less silly. so, im not really suggesting this change (but id take it))
    "I am always serious; I am never serious." -Me
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Eh.... one captain in a group is awesome, two is pretty much verboten going by GLFF. That needs to change, and by allowing captains to sufficiently fill other roles, it will help.

    More so if it's harder to level captains because we don't start seeing something that resembles DPS until we're in our 50's.
    I highly disagree - RoF and Foundry was awesome to do with 2 Captains rather than 1 Captain + 1 Minstrel. Turning the table further towards Captain will make this the preferred setup over RK/Minstrel healers, and I don't want to see that happen.

  20. #20
    I like some changes that you propose, the rework of the banner traits, elimination of buff sticks, etc.


    The problems with the class IMHO are

    Our healing is way too dependent in our emblems, especially pool A legacies.
    Our banner traits are almost useless. And there are some other lackluster traits, Tactical prowess, strong voice, herald traits.
    Our slow is a 20sec in a 20sec cd skill, if you miss or get bpe or you get outrun for just a second you are already out of range.
    Our tanking line lacks mitigations/crit defense. And probably a stun break and aggro leeches.
    A super situational skill in fighting withdrawal.
    Buff sticks, swap emblems.
    And that our max dps output/setup can't be achieved solo (War Banner with blade brother).

    I agree with stacking but also should had a limit.
    So, I like your banners bonus.

    Agree with the consolidation of our buff lecagies into the skill itself. Also I like your proposed new legacies.

    In your traitline proposal.

    LTC: Agree that we should be encouraged to try to go 7 deep in a traitline but don't know if a 2% more damage is the way to go.

    Even when I think that heralds sucks, I still think that they should have at least 1 trait to make it better for those that use it. So I wouldn't just eliminate both of those traits, or consolidate them in the base stats, I think that both loyalty and precise ally should just be merged in one.

    Instead of fast skills I would like a crit multiplier.

    Anything is better than the current FW.

    That grave wound trait would be like the strong voice of HoH. Better give a trait that gives +% damage to GW and CA when they are together or just a nice amount of finesse.

    HoH: Same with LtC I like that can be some meaning in going 7 blue.
    Defeat responses in HoT ticks are OP.
    +% hot healing will be better, or HoT crit chance.

    LoM: There is already an aggro tool with BoE-TS, will be better to give aggro to other skills, a trait that will give an aggro leech to RC Hots (Or hots in general) would be better.

    Fellowship brother should be legendary, if you want to consolidate one in the normal skills it should be idome.

    I would add
    GW to give a slow (25%) and a dot regardless of CA, if both present the slow is 35%
    Eliminate one pool A healing legacy, RC healing or VS healing, put the % in the base skill, and replace it with a aggro or dps legacy.
    A better consumable, compared to other classes, battle tonics kinda suck, and the other consumable is for heralds, and most captains don't use them. A consumable that gives a +% crit chance +% crit/dev multiplier for melee, and another for healing for 10 seconds or so would be good.
    Also the capstone in every line should unlock the respective brother skill. ie, getting the red capstone will give you blade brother, (instead of just giving you the full brother effects when you use them in someone else) unlocking the blade brother versions of inpire, TA and SoW. Off course you can always put shield/song brother in someone else, eliminating the blade brother and giving the respective shield/song skills.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar View Post
    - You want to add the strong PoT from Songbrother-Inspire to Shieldbrother-Inspire and vice versa, so both Song- and Shield-Brother Inspire would be exactly the same and additionally a stronger HoT AND PoT then Bladebrother-Inspire!? What sense makes that?
    I was trying to explain Inspire strength as:
    X-Bro PoT HoT
    Blade Weak Weak
    Shield Weak Strong
    Song Strong Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar View Post
    And our most powerful legendary trait('fellowship brother') as a passiv. Don't you think that would be overpowered?
    No, I do not.

    Something that is expected of the class should be part of the class. If we really are a buffing class, we should have the ability to effectively buff the fellow in combat, and it should be a far more active part of the class than it currently is. Look at what a mini can do buff wise, then look at what we do buff wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar View Post
    Positional Damage for a Captain??? Am I a sneaky ... who is attacking from behind or a brave Captain and Leader?
    It was the first thing that popped into mind, what would you have as a red trait?

    Edit:
    Maybe a +50% Melee Skills Critical Magnitude (DPS mirror of Relentless Optimism) would be a good fit for the LtC line?
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Nov 15 2012 at 04:52 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  22. #22
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    Brilliant suggestions but it would make the captain very OP - If some of them were implemented it'd actually balance the captain out very well but all of them? A little too much IMO.
    Evernight:
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  23. #23
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    If we were to have positional damage, it should be a bonus for attacking enemies who are facing us. ^_^
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarkit View Post
    Brilliant suggestions but it would make the captain very OP - If some of them were implemented it'd actually balance the captain out very well but all of them? A little too much IMO.
    Which ones are balanced? Which ones are OP?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  25. #25
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    I'd actually love to have these changes!

 

 
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