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  1. #26
    A lot of good points about how the mere mention of Champions, Wardens, Loremasters etc. may not reflect the class but are book basis for the naming of the game class.
    Also, a general contempt for the Rune Keeper class as not being canon, creates an atmosphere where people ignore some important information from the books:

    Daeron:
    An Elf of Doriath who created the Alphabet of Daeron. Daeron was a Sindarin Elf. The chief loremaster and minstrel of King Thingol, and he was considered to be the greatest singer among the Elves.
    Daeron developed his alphabet by 1300 of the Years of the Trees, and around 1350 he made revisions and improvements. The Alphabet of Daeron - or Certhas Daeron - was a system of writing with runes to represent the sounds of the Sindarin language. The runes - or Cirth - were angular letters that were suitable for carving into stone or wood.
    While the "Rune Keeper" indeed uses runes carved into stone etc. (class quest on Amon Sul) it's clearly a different meaning here.

    Celebrimbor:
    Celebrimbor befriended the Dwarves of Khazad-dum, and they shared skills and secrets with each other. The Dwarves adapted the rune system of the Elves for their own use, while Celebrimbor became highly skilled in working with mithril.

    Celebrimbor is most commonly known as the son of Curufin and grandson of Feanor. In one version of the story, he was described as a Noldorin craftsman who worked for Turgon in Gondolin. In another version Celebrimbor was said to be a Sindarin Elf who was descended from Daeron, the originator of the runes used by the Elves.
    Again speaking more of Runes as a written language than words of power. But the mention of Runes and the connection to the Elves and Dwarves might explain why the class was limited to those races. I can see why people feel there is no book basis for the class but the title certainly makes sense given the history of Runes with that of the Elves and Dwarves.

    Essentially, the only true classes would seem to be Hunter and Burglar. Perhaps Captain (even though Captain is probably stretching the definition when looking at the abilities of the class)

    Wardens, Champions, Lore-masters and Minstrels seem more to be titles than actual definitions. Although it could be argued that Minstrel truly means musician/performer and is more than just a title ... but again the class abilities are exaggerated to make the team dynamic work. In my opinion, Guardian seems to be the title they stretched the most.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Valmarill; Nov 11 2012 at 05:08 AM.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Uhm what? Point is, they made that up to suit themselves and whatever else, that means it's got no bearing on what we're talking about here.
    Uhm that until anyone is able to produce credentials that beat Berephon's... his will be the final word on the matter.


    Quote Originally Posted by Haunt123 View Post
    Well, Tengwar was made to be written using a brush or pen... too curvy to be used as a runic script. Don't really know the thinking behind making it runic.
    If memory serves right, the Modern English word rune comes from Old Norse rûn, essentially meaning 'letter' or 'writing'. Just like tengwar. Of which, by the by, there does exist an attested, more angular variation that CT called 'the pointed style'. That style is indeed better suited for carving on harder materials. Even more so is the square style, though; that, however, is only attested in the draft for The Return of the King jacket.

    As an aside:
    Both cirth and tengwar appear in the effects and icons of RKs' skills, though upon the rocks they hold only cirth can be seen. Based on what I've witnessed, tengwar are used with skills related to healing, and cirth with skills related to damage.

    ETA:
    Quote Originally Posted by Valmarill View Post
    A lot of good points about how the mere mention of Champions, Wardens, Loremasters etc. may not reflect the class but are book basis for the naming of the game class.
    ----
    Wardens, Champions, Lore-masters and Minstrels seem more to be titles than actual definitions.
    ---
    All the mentions in the books certainly seem to be more or less generic.
    Beregond, though, recognizes Faramir as a Captain in The Return of the King, with turns of words that ring true to my ears, based on the class in-game: "(Faramir) is bold, more bold than many deem; for in these days men are slow to believe that a captain can be wise and learned in the scrolls of lore and song, as he is, and yet a man of hardihood and swift judgement in the field. But such is Faramir. Less reckless and eager than Boromir, but not less resolute.---"

    I wonder if, given time, we might find equally fitting descriptions for the other classes specifically mentioned?
    Last edited by Daeross; Nov 11 2012 at 06:34 AM.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daeross View Post
    Uhm that until anyone is able to produce credentials that beat Berephon's... his will be the final word on the matter.
    You can tell just by looking at the tengwar that it's not runic. Perish the thought that Berephon might have had some reason other than lore to say that is was - like because he works for Turbine, say, and therefore has to follow the party line about the RK. Or it might be that he's simply got it wrong, but certainly what he says is untrue. Appealing to authority in the manner you just have is most definitely a fallacy.

    If memory serves right, the Modern English word rune comes from Old Norse rûn, essentially meaning 'letter' or 'writing'. Just like tengwar. Of which, by the by, there does exist an attested, more angular variation that CT called 'the pointed style'. That style is indeed better suited for carving on harder materials. Even more so is the square style, though; that, however, is only attested in the draft for The Return of the King jacket.
    That's a terrible argument. We have our own word for such a thing too, but that doesn't mean that what we write in has anything to do with runes. There are more pointed and more square variants of the Roman alphabet, too; that detail has no significance either.

    As an aside:
    Both cirth and tengwar appear in the effects and icons of RKs' skills, though upon the rocks they hold only cirth can be seen. Based on what I've witnessed, tengwar are used with skills related to healing, and cirth with skills related to damage.
    Yes, we know. That's probably why they're pretending the tengwar is runic, for the sake of that visual variety.

    I wonder if, given time, we might find equally fitting descriptions for the other classes specifically mentioned?
    Not likely because all the others are patently artificial.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robeauch View Post
    Actually, The Hobbit is very much included in the licensing rights.
    I'd actually rather see the licensing contract than a press release from Turbine. If they really did have the rights to The Hobbit from as far back as 2008, don't you think we'd be seeing more Hobbit-related material in the game?
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  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Abiyah View Post
    I'd actually rather see the licensing contract than a press release from Turbine. If they really did have the rights to The Hobbit from as far back as 2008, don't you think we'd be seeing more Hobbit-related material in the game?

    What, like Goblin Town?

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    You can tell just by looking at the tengwar that it's not runic.---
    So let's just ignore all the similarities and concentrate on the differences brought about by personality and/or the materials used...?
    Just for clarity's sake, what definition of 'runic' or 'rune' are you comparing the tengwar to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    ---Appealing to authority in the manner you just have is most definitely a fallacy.
    Appealing to an authority with proven credentials is a fallacy? Would it, then, be better if we just made stuff up all by ourselves, without any background or reasoning other than 'I felt like it'?
    Or, perhaps, greater credibility might be gained by standing behind the one who yells the loudest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    That's a terrible argument. We have our own word for such a thing too, but that doesn't mean that what we write in has anything to do with runes.---
    That's... like saying that what we speak doesn't have anything to do with Old English.

    But I see, reading this thread, that the query expressed in the original post has been utterly answered by that earlier post by Dwarendele. Everything other than that... either elaborations or just plain derailment.
    What classes we have, what their monikers are, are things the devs figured out they could 'get away with', interpreting what Tolkien wrote via MMORPG-glasses. Far more questionable than the words they chose to call those roles with, imo, is the named characters they've tied each class to.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daeross View Post
    So let's just ignore all the similarities and concentrate on the differences brought about by personality and/or the materials used...?
    Just for clarity's sake, what definition of 'runic' or 'rune' are you comparing the tengwar to?
    That runes were a characteristic and readily recognisable system of writing used among the Germanic peoples IRL, something which Tolkien simply borrowed and adapted for his own purposes. The tengwar are another matter. The thing about runes is that they were designed to be incised into things (which is why they're almost entirely composed of straight lines, to make that easier); the tengwar were a novel concept, they were designed to be written with ink, hence all those curves (especially in their original Feanorian form). So the forms are different, and furthermore how the tengwar worked was different. And they're not runic.

    Appealing to an authority with proven credentials is a fallacy?
    If you do it that way, saying it's the final word, then it's a fallacy. And as I said, Berephon has to follow the Turbine party line because he works for them.

    That's... like saying that what we speak doesn't have anything to do with Old English.
    Not at all. What we speak evolved from Old English (picking up a lot of other influences on the way) but how it was written changed. Runes were abandoned in favour of the Latin alphabet, for cultural reasons (the Church used the Latin alphabet). The Latin alphabet isn't runic. The same sort of thing happened in Middle-earth: how Elvish was written changed for cultural reasons, from using runes to the non-runic tengwar.

  8. #33
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    This bickering is pointless, really. For example, there WEREN'T tons of heroes running around, and a group of twelve optimistic adventurers certainly couldn't go up against Saruman; but that wouldn't make for a very enjoyable MMORPG, now, would it?
    If this game followed the books religiously, do you think there would be any Hobbit Champions or Wardens of consequence?

    Seriously?

    ...That would stand a chance against an Uruk-Hai?

    LAWL!

    Bottom line is, this is an MMORPG (Not a re-enactment), that tries to remain playable while still remaining authentic. With a small stretch of the imagination, one could easily envisage minstrels, bards, hunters, and even (God forbid!) rune-keepers.
    I think Tolkien would be happy, since we're stretching our imaginations, and that was his ultimate goal; which was to create magic in the minds of people living in a world where magic does not exist.

  9. #34
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    It's not the words...

    You guys are getting all hung up on the words themselves. All the classes were (according to Turbine) patterned after (or rather, inspired by) specific characters in Lord of the Rings, but they purposely used different words (the sole exception being burglar which was inspired by Bilbo in The Hobbit. See this thread.
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=lime][SIZE=1][COLOR=lime][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b000000064094/01001/signature.png]Mugwump[/charsig][/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=lime][SIZE=1][COLOR=lime]Note to players who want to be considered literate: [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=cyan][I]You're [/I]= You are. [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=cyan][I]Your [/I]= Belonging to you. [I]It's[/I] = It is. [I]Its[/I] = belonging to it. [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=cyan][I]They're[/I] = They are. [I]Their[/I] = Belonging to them. [I]There[/I] = At that place.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=lime][SIZE=1][COLOR=yellow][I]Items[/I] = More than one item. [I]Item's[/I] = Belonging to the item. (True for almost all nouns.)[/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE]

  10. #35
    I found these missing:

    Classes:

    - Ranger: mix of burglar and guardian. Only human or numenorean. Example: Aragorn.

    - Beast-master: Morphs into an animal at night willing or not (always the same), can call a pet. Only human. Example: Beorn.

    - Cleric: Cast terrain modifications to help friends and avoid enemies, also can manage hope (then, reducing dread or effects from "death") by reciting hymns like "A Elbereth Gilthoniël" combined with "regents" like "Eärendil light". Only elves and hobbits. Use a dagger to attack. Examples: Frodo, Galadirel.

    "Ranger" probably could be attained by simply adding a second class to each character. A second class could be added to a certain level, but causing to multiply per 2 the level for the obtention of posterior skills for each class and only using the same class slots.

    Professions:

    - Rancher/butcher (meat/livestock/horses/obtaining milk types/obtaining leather types...)

    - Gardener (ornaments/collecting seeds for garden plants/bees and honey...)

    - Cartographer (creates real maps of areas that can be used by oneself or sold, when one takes one, cannot resell it, only destroy it). The higher the level, the more information in the map when made. Is basically a far zoom of an area. By dafult the player doesn't have maps, he can buy some (the already existing ones) but not much more.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfhelm View Post
    What, like Goblin Town?
    The passage to Goblin Town received mention in The Lord of the Ring trilogy. Other notables such as Bert, Bill and Tom also received mention. Being in the trilogy makes them usable for the game. Try again.
    Last edited by Abiyah; Nov 13 2012 at 10:08 PM.
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  12. #37
    I dont know about them Runekeepers. They look pretty fishy to me.
    They like to think theyre hunters on the go without inductions.
    Scary little RKs and their pretty magic.
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  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Abiyah View Post
    The passage to Goblin Town received mention in The Lord of the Ring trilogy. Other notables such as Bert, Bill and Tom also received mention. Being in the trilogy makes them usable for the game. Try again.
    Are you being serious?, have you ever been to Goblin Town in game?

    The Black Crack, the Mountain's Throat, the Great Goblin, Bilbo's buttons, Gollum's cave, goblin slave drivers, lyrics from the song Down to Goblin Town repeated verbatim, graffiti clearly showing the escape by Bilbo, Gandalf and the dwarves from the goblin/warg attack etc...

    There are many more, all clearly taken from the Hobbit, and most if not all not even briefly mentioned in LoTR. Also if memory serves there are also a couple of quests named specifically after chapters in the book.

    Would YOU like to try again?

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    That runes were a characteristic and readily recognisable system of writing used among the Germanic peoples IRL, something which Tolkien simply borrowed and adapted for his own purposes.---
    If you compare cirth to RL runes, you'll be out of luck quickly; basic building blocks are the same, and thus a certain amount of the final symbols, yes, but their meanings have barely anything in common.
    Not to even mention the fact that there were no Germanic people in Middle-earth to use any writing system whatsoever...
    But maybe you're thinking about the runes in The Hobbit? If so, then all this is understandable. Regarding those, here: this contains nice little commentary on them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    --- The tengwar are another matter. The thing about runes is that they were designed to be incised into things (which is why they're almost entirely composed of straight lines, to make that easier); the tengwar were a novel concept, they were designed to be written with ink, hence all those curves (especially in their original Feanorian form). So the forms are different, and furthermore how the tengwar worked was different. And they're not runic.
    Fancy that the best known examples of tengwar, then, are written in metal and stone... and it's specifically mentioned that there were "pen-written forms" of cirth, used for example in the book of Mazarbul.
    And, according to Tolkien himself, both cirth and tengwar function under same principles: "adding a stroke to a branch added 'voice'; reversing indicated opening to a 'spirant'; placing the branch on both sides of the stem added voice and nasality."
    Once again, this is boiling down to being naught but claims of one's opinion being fact, without backing, ignoring the given evidence to the contrary.

    As for 'original Fëanorian form'? Try Rúmil. Granted, his letters weren't known in Middle-earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Not at all. What we speak evolved from Old English (picking up a lot of other influences on the way) but how it was written changed. Runes were abandoned in favour of the Latin alphabet, for cultural reasons (the Church used the Latin alphabet). The Latin alphabet isn't runic. The same sort of thing happened in Middle-earth: how Elvish was written changed for cultural reasons, from using runes to the non-runic tengwar.
    This is certainly one way to miss the point...
    RL runes are to Latin alphabet as Hebrew is to Arabic. Same family, same bases... different times, cultures.

    However, these last couple of posts of this particular discussion haven't had a single thing to do with the thread's subject or the OP, in any way whatsoever. Ergo, for my part, I shall perhaps continue in another, more suitable thread, and refrain from further comments in this.
    If your desire is to continue the derailment, feel free.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abiyah View Post
    The passage to Goblin Town received mention in The Lord of the Ring trilogy. Other notables such as Bert, Bill and Tom also received mention. Being in the trilogy makes them usable for the game. Try again.
    Abiyah:
    There is not a single mention of the name "Goblin Town" in The Lord of the Rings. Nor of the fact that Bilbo was the fourteenth member of Thorin Oakenshield's company (referred to in the Dwarven intro). Or about the giants in the Misties, Bilbo losing his buttons, the crack where that company sought refuge and where taken captive by the goblins... or other such things from The Hobbit that are, in fact, in the game.

    As it is, other than a couple of throwaway comments about the Battle of the Five Armies, and of those who survived it out of the company of Thorin, Beorn and Bard and the Ring and miscellany like that, what occurred in The Hobbit is not actually even discussed. More is talked about how things have been around Erebor after Dáin became the King Under Mountain, and what led to the trek of Thorin's company.

  16. #41

    Cool

    I infact know where the Rune-Keeper comes from. The class comes from Daeron. Daeron was a Sindarin Elf. The chief loremaster and minstrel of King Thingol, and he was considered to be the greatest singer among the Elves. The Rune-Keeper is based off of Daeron. Combining the Lore-master and Minstrel into one class. Yes some classes were mentioned in the story, But not all were defined a class title either. albeit Burglars and Rune-keepers. remember LOTR series are books. We in the gaming community need class titles so we know what each character we create can do.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daeross View Post
    If you compare cirth to RL runes, you'll be out of luck quickly; basic building blocks are the same, and thus a certain amount of the final symbols, yes, but their meanings have barely anything in common.
    I didn't say it was any sort of exact likeness; it doesn't need to be, as the inspiration is obvious. The fact remains that when Tolkien says runes he really does mean runes, not just any sort of written symbol. Turbine may chose to blur that line for the sort of generic fantasy they're peddling with the RK but you really should know better.

    LOTR Appendix E Part II has this to say:

    "The alphabets were of two main, and in origin independent, kinds: the Tengwar or Tiw, here translated as 'letters', and the Certar or Cirth, here translated as 'runes'. The Tengwar were devised for writing with brush or pen, and the squared forms of inscriptions were in their case derivative from the written forms. The Certar were devised and mostly used only for scratched or incised inscriptions."

    And so it appears Tolkien disagrees with you.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by blakstone View Post
    I infact know where the Rune-Keeper comes from. The class comes from Daeron. Daeron was a Sindarin Elf. The chief loremaster and minstrel of King Thingol, and he was considered to be the greatest singer among the Elves. The Rune-Keeper is based off of Daeron. Combining the Lore-master and Minstrel into one class. Yes some classes were mentioned in the story, But not all were defined a class title either. albeit Burglars and Rune-keepers. remember LOTR series are books. We in the gaming community need class titles so we know what each character we create can do.
    'In fact'? RKs don't even sing, they supposedly write; 'We in the gaming community' could do with being a bit more observant about what the game has to say for itself. And what exactly does 'Rune-keeper' tell you about what the character can do? Oh, someone who's a keeper of runes, that totally suggests going into combat clutching a little rock (rather than a runestaff, say?) and flinging lightning about like a Lord of the Sith

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Abiyah View Post
    I'd actually rather see the licensing contract than a press release from Turbine. If they really did have the rights to The Hobbit from as far back as 2008, don't you think we'd be seeing more Hobbit-related material in the game?
    If they didn't have the rights to use The Hobbit, don't you think some lawyers would have taken notice by now?

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiedman View Post
    If they didn't have the rights to use The Hobbit, don't you think some lawyers would have taken notice by now?
    I believe they've handed back the rights to The Hobbit but been allowed to keep the content where they've already borrowed things from it (like Goblin Town). No more new stuff from there, though.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    I believe they've handed back the rights to The Hobbit but been allowed to keep the content where they've already borrowed things from it (like Goblin Town). No more new stuff from there, though.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hob...29#Video_games claim that the video game rights to the Hobbit are owned by Warner. The original source for new games being developed is http://www.411mania.com/games/news/2...bbit-Games.htm

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/new...o-games-373919 claims Warner owns rights to both the books (i.e. the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings - the Silmarillion probably is not for sale as long as CJRT has any say on the matter) and the movies.
    Last edited by Mithfindel; Nov 16 2012 at 04:28 AM.

 

 
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