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  1. #1

    Character Classes That Actually Appear in Tolkien's Books

    Not too long ago I re-read all of the books (starting with The Hobbit and working through Return). It struck me that the term "loremaster" actually appears quite frequently, in reference to Elrond, Gandalf, and others, I believe. A few other character classes that are used in the game also appear, of course (for example, "captain" is mentioned a few times, as I think "warden" is, as well). Not that the way Tolkien uses these terms is anything like the way they've been embodied and realized in the game, but it'd be interesting to do a tally of how often the various classes are actually mentioned in the books.

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    I don't recall ever seeing the terms "runekeeper" or "minstrel" in the Lord of the Rings trilogy (which is where the lore for the game has to come from; The Hobbit isn't included in the licensing rights for the game).

    The burglar class also has a very slim and shaky foundation, lore-wise. Though strong in The Hobbit, it really has no basis in the trilogy. Bilbo is by the time of the story long past his burgling days, and the only real instance of burgling would be Pippin taking the Palantir from under Gandalf's head while he slept. That hardly seems to me to justify the class (though I will readily admit it's one of my favorites to play!).
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    Well of course Burglar for starters, And Elrond said he was Gil-galad's Minstrel in the first age. Captain is used quite a bit, as are the terms Guardian and Champions, but probably not in the context of classes - more their generic meaning.

    Hunter, Lore-master and Warden are also used a lot and may be more bent towards their class-like abilities.

    Rune-keeper seems to have been pulled out of thin air by the turbine dev teams or may be briefly mentioned in some of the more obscure writings that i cant recall ATM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abiyah View Post
    I don't recall ever seeing the terms "runekeeper" or "minstrel" in the Lord of the Rings trilogy
    There were (mildly magical) Elvish minstrels in Rivendell. There are other places where you can spot where Turbine got the names from, but that of course is as far as it goes. In the books loremasters were no more than people who have lots of knowledge, not possessing any sort of magic from that alone. As for the Champion, Eärnur was said to be so fond of weapon sports that he seemed to be more a champion than anything else:

    Eärnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom. He was a man of strong body and hot mood; but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting, or in the exercise of arms. His prowess was such that none in Gondor could stand against him in those weapon-sports in which he delighted, seeming rather a champion than a captain or king, and retaining his vigour and skill to a later age than was then usual.

    But it's a long way from there to all that dual-wielding business in the game. 'Warden' comes from 'March-warden'; guys like Haldir were essentially the Elvish equivalent of the Rangers. As for the Guardian, that has no provenance at all (you can tell that from how they tried to pin that label on Sam). Captain and Hunter, well, they need no explanation. And Rune-keeper? Pulled out of thin air.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwarendele View Post
    And Elrond said he was Gil-galad's Minstrel in the first age.
    Elrond was Gil-galad's herald.

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    Elrond was Gil-galad's herald.
    I know that there seems to be some controversy surrounding this passage, but i just read this passage the other day and he clearly said he was Gil-galad's minstrel and adviser... however I cant recall where I read it at - it may have been in the Histories of M-e and therefore not canon...

    Radhruin_EU: Do you know off-hand where this passage comes from? I thought it was during the counsel of Elrond in Rivendell - FoR.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    And Rune-keeper? Pulled out of thin air.
    Rad I would agree with you but Devs long ago when they implemented the class gave the exact quote from the books, think it was 1 phrase from LOTR appendices.

    Something in the lines of "some dwarves used runes for magical purposes, using words power to invoke them", reffering the gates of moria or something similar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Rad I would agree with you but Devs long ago when they implemented the class gave the exact quote from the books, think it was 1 phrase from LOTR appendices.

    Something in the lines of "some dwarves used runes for magical purposes, using words power to invoke them", reffering the gates of moria or something similar
    I don't want to get into the whole RK argument again, so I'll simply say this: there is a simply huge leap from magical use being made of runes to the idea of having Dwarves and Wood-elves withering their enemies with magic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Rad I would agree with you but Devs long ago when they implemented the class gave the exact quote from the books, think it was 1 phrase from LOTR appendices.

    Something in the lines of "some dwarves used runes for magical purposes, using words power to invoke them", reffering the gates of moria or something similar
    This is true, but the term runekeeper itself was never used. That's what the thread seems to be about, use of the names of the classes in the story.
    [COLOR="#6666ff"][FONT=Century Gothic]To many people, free will is a license to rebel not against what is unjust or hard in life but against what is best for them and true.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Rad I would agree with you but Devs long ago when they implemented the class gave the exact quote from the books, think it was 1 phrase from LOTR appendices.

    Something in the lines of "some dwarves used runes for magical purposes, using words power to invoke them", reffering the gates of moria or something similar
    Hmm if I remember rightly, the Gates of Moria were actually etched with ELVISH Runes - hence speak 'Friend' and enter resulting in Mallorn.

    Although if you delve into the Silmarillion you will find reference to the Rune Smiths of the Dwarves although there is no depth to the description.
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    The Hollin gate was crafted by Elvish Lore-masters of Eregion and Rivendell - not by Dwarven Rune-keepers. However - there are plenty of Dwarf rune craft going on in the deeps behind the gate...
    Take Care,
    D.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaurieAle View Post
    Hmm if I remember rightly, the Gates of Moria were actually etched with ELVISH Runes - hence speak 'Friend' and enter resulting in Mallorn.---
    Funny little tidbit, concerning writing systems in Middle-earth... all known alphabets are elvish in origin. The fact that other people took them and changed them to suit their own ideas (thus the Dwarven runes of Erebor and Moria, and so forth) doesn't change who was originally behind them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwarendele View Post
    The Hollin gate was crafted by Elvish Lore-masters of Eregion and Rivendell - not by Dwarven Rune-keepers. However - there are plenty of Dwarf rune craft going on in the deeps behind the gate...
    "---I, Narvi, made them. Celebrimbor of Hollin drew these signs."
    That's how the translation of the Sindarin tengwar in the Mode of Beleriand goes. Narvi being a master craftsman of the Dwarven race.
    Celebrimbor, the greatest jewelsmith of his age, was the 'head honcho' of Ost-in-Edhil (Mirobel in-game) in Eregion.

    As for the topic at hand...
    Champions, captains, hunters, minstrels, loremasters (or lore-masters) all litter the pages of the Lord of the Rings. Guardians are mentioned in the Prologue ("They forgot or ignored what little they had ever known of the Guardians---"), the best known Warden was that of the Houses of Healing in Minas Tirith, the term 'burglar' was sown aplenty in The Hobbit to which Turbine used to have licensing rights...but the closest match to how rune-keepers have been described is probably lambengolmor, loremasters of tongues. Alas, they're not mentioned in anything Turbine has any rights to.

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    I stand corrected

    Good display of lore knowledge there Daeross.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daeross View Post
    As for the topic at hand...
    Champions, captains, hunters, minstrels, loremasters (or lore-masters) all litter the pages of the Lord of the Rings.
    I'd like to see at least one quoted instance of the word "minstrel" used in LotR, please.
    [COLOR="#6666ff"][FONT=Century Gothic]To many people, free will is a license to rebel not against what is unjust or hard in life but against what is best for them and true.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abiyah View Post
    I'd like to see at least one quoted instance of the word "minstrel" used in LotR, please.
    I just brought up my e-copy of FoR in Adobe reader and used the Ctrl+F function and typed in the word "Minstrel"


    The first result that came up was:

    BOOK II
    Chapter 1: Many Meetings

    "As Elrond entered and went towards the seat prepared for him, elvish minstrels began to make sweet music."

    There are many other references like this.
    Take Care,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwarendele View Post
    BOOK II
    Chapter 1: Many Meetings

    "As Elrond entered and went towards the seat prepared for him, elvish minstrels began to make sweet music."

    There are many other references like this.
    Thank you.
    [COLOR="#6666ff"][FONT=Century Gothic]To many people, free will is a license to rebel not against what is unjust or hard in life but against what is best for them and true.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaurieAle View Post
    the Gates of Moria were actually etched with ELVISH Runes
    Those weren't runes, they were in the Feanorian script (the Tengwar). Turbine were really casual about what they called runes.

    Although if you delve into the Silmarillion you will find reference to the Rune Smiths of the Dwarves although there is no depth to the description.
    Quote, please.

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    Gwindor = Champion

    He ran in solo towards an entire host of orcs
    He Shing Shing'd with great rage
    And in the end caused his entire raiding party (200k people) to wipe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Those weren't runes, they were in the Feanorian script (the Tengwar). Turbine were really casual about what they called runes.
    Uhm...
    Quote Originally Posted by Berephon View Post
    tengwar and cirth are both runic letters.---
    Their game, their rules. *shrug*

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    Just for kicks - and because I'm bored, I went ahead and did a search for all the class names in the LOTR trilogy including the appendices.

    The e-version of the work I have are not official and are just something that somebody typed-out for typing practice, so i don't know what version they used, but they are pretty good and for this purpose I supposed good enough.

    As mentioned above, I opened them in Reader and used Ctrl+F function to search for a key word and counted the results, I didn't read the verse or take context in to account, but most of the passages are like the one about Minstrels above - kind of generic.

    I included results that had the key word in it like door-warden, huntsmen and guardianship.


    Burglar:
    FoR: 0
    TT: 0
    RoK:0
    AP: 0
    Total: 0

    Captain:
    FoR: 10
    TT: 27
    RoK: 110
    AP: 14
    Total: 161

    Champion:
    FoR: 0
    TT: 1
    RoK: 2
    AP: 1
    Total: 4

    Guardian:
    FoR: 2
    TT: 2
    RoK: 3
    AP: 3
    Total: 10

    Hunter:
    FoR: 7
    TT: 8
    RoK: 10
    AP: 2
    Total: 27

    Lore-master:
    FoR: 4
    TT: 2
    RoK: 1
    AP: 0
    Total: 7

    Minstrel
    FoR: 2
    TT: 1
    RoK: 7
    AP: 2
    Total: 12

    Rune-keeper:
    FoR: 0
    TT: 0
    RoK: 0
    AP: 0
    Total: 0

    Warden:
    FoR: 3
    TT: 4
    RoK: 25
    AP: 2
    Total: 34

    It is curious to me that the word "Burglar" didn't pop up once in the Lord of the Rings
    I thought it did...
    Take Care,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwarendele View Post
    Just for kicks - and because I'm bored, I went ahead and did a search for all the class names in the LOTR trilogy including the appendices.

    -snipped for thoroughness-
    *cheers*
    Gotta memorize this post of yours. Never know when questions about classes arise again...

    Too bad about not knowing what print's in question, but here's hoping there aren't that many differences between English versions throughout the years...

    ETA:
    Search for 'loremaster', too. In the version(s) I possess, at least, there were places where that term was written with a hyphen, and other places without the hyphen.
    Last edited by Daeross; Nov 10 2012 at 04:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daeross View Post
    Uhm...
    Uhm what? Point is, they made that up to suit themselves and whatever else, that means it's got no bearing on what we're talking about here.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwarendele View Post
    It is curious to me that the word "Burglar" didn't pop up once in the Lord of the Rings
    I thought it did...
    Burglar comes from the Hobbit. Where the 12 dwarves were looking specifically for a skilled Burglar to help them steal back their treasure from Smaug. Gandalf convinces them that Bilbo is a great Burglar (which of course he isn't) and over the course of the story Bilbo develops his burglarly attributes, with a little help from a magical ring, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daeross View Post
    Their game, their rules. *shrug*
    Well, Tengwar was made to be written using a brush or pen... too curvy to be used as a runic script. Don't really know the thinking behind making it runic.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Abiyah View Post
    I don't recall ever seeing the terms "runekeeper" or "minstrel" in the Lord of the Rings trilogy (which is where the lore for the game has to come from; The Hobbit isn't included in the licensing rights for the game).
    Actually, The Hobbit is very much included in the licensing rights.

    From an announcement about a license extension back in 2008 (linked above):
    Turbine, Inc. [...] has reached an agreement with Tolkien Enterprises to extend it's license to develop Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Games (MMORPG) based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien to 2014 with additional options to extend the rights until 2017.
    On an unrelated note, it's embarrassing that Turbine's publicity department doesn't know the difference between its and it's.
    Last edited by Robeauch; Nov 11 2012 at 04:59 PM.
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