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  1. #1
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    Healing Emblem Post RoR

    Been looking at the legacies, and with VS's upgrade, I'm starting to wonder if the healing emblem should go from:

    Vocal Skills healing
    Melee Skills Healing
    RC Cooldown
    RC Healing
    Strength of Will
    MC Cooldown

    To:
    Vocal Skills healing
    Melee Skills Healing
    RC Cooldown
    VS Healing
    Strength of Will
    MC Cooldown

    Thoughts?

    PS: I'm well aware that SoW should be on a swap emblem. It ain't happening, so I'm going to be slightly inefficient with it.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  2. #2
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    I wouldnt drop RC healing leg in favor of VS healing leg. Checking CA in the several skraids I ran tonight, my RCs accounted for like 3x the heals my VS's did. Albeit, I was 5r/2b so no melee heal buff from that, and on my emblem I had 15% vocal and 11% RC heals (or something like that) and 13.5% melee heals with no VS heals legacy (now I'm going to reallocate those points to 15% RC and whatever's left to melee). This was with 3 Perseverance, and a macro-swapped 3-GC so I was probably hitting VS every 45 seconds or so (accounting for inefficiencies like just not hitting my swap macro when I RC'd or lag) and RC very often.

    Obviously this situation I was in favors Rally Cry, but even stripping some of the advantages I listed away I really doubt you'll often have VS create more heals than RC.

    Don't forget, VS leg is 10% maxed and RC is 15% maxed.
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  3. #3
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    Im the kind of captain who goes redline and uses 3 perserverence 3 dagor (at 85 probably 3 perserverence and 3 hytbold healing pieces)so my emblem looks like this:

    Rallying cry healing
    Rallying cry cd
    Vocal skill skil healing
    mele skills healing
    muster curage cd
    shadow lament cd

    I would highly suggest putting SoW on a swap emblem. But the legacy would not be good unless you had 5 majors which would replace either MC cd or SoW.

    Not to mention you need to be a blue line captain for this to be affective. (rallying cry recovers VS cd by x seconds and +20% VS healing + legacy + blue capstone) But other than that, its not worth replacing the other majors and not the minors. If you wanted to, just make a main emblem, a swap emblem and a blue emblem.

    Blue emblem would be like:

    Vocal skill healing
    Mele skill healing
    Rallying cry healing
    Rallying cry cd
    VS healing
    WoC pulses

    5 majors i know i know. But you lose healing replacing any of the other majors. Also have a swap with MC cd and SoW if you use that blue emblem setup.
    Jeridz l Rank 9 l Minstrel l Apex l Elendilmir

  4. #4
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    The assumption of HoH vs. LtC will make a big difference in your choice of legacies, I think. Valiant Strike Healing now has a place on a general emblem, but an LtC build will still prefer Rallying Cry Healing. RC has a bigger initial heal than VS does, and benefits more from the percentage legacy.

    Most significantly, LtC definitely wants Strength of Will Effects. (I'm not going to assume swap items, because I think in-combat swap items are anti-fun and should be removed from the game.) HoH can make good use of it, but doesn't care quite as much.

    My logic is this: After the reduction of the SoW legacy's maximum benefit from +15% to +10%, Shield-Brother for main healing gives a significantly smaller advantage over Song-Brother than it used to. So, an HoH Captain can effectively main heal with either Song-Brother or Shield-Brother. But while a Shield-Brother HoH Captain absolutely requires the SoW legacy, a Song-Brother Captain doesn't get much from it.

    So, a Song-Brother HoH Captain has the option to build a healing emblem that excludes the SoW legacy and doesn't swap it, either.

    The emblem I'd build for that is like this (since we're assuming 5 majors anyway):

    Vocal Skills healing
    Melee Skills Healing
    RC Cooldown
    RC Healing
    Valiant Strike Healing
    Words of Courage Pulses or Time of Need Cooldown or, for the heck of it, Shield of the Dunedain Cooldown

    (see above re: swapping)
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  5. #5
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    Like I said before, I'm probably not going to go with a swap emblem. Unless I take the time to macro it (which I'm not really keen on doing), it doesn't happen in combat cause of how I'm wired.

    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    But while a Shield-Brother HoH Captain absolutely requires the SoW legacy, a Song-Brother Captain doesn't get much from it.
    That is a very good point.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  6. #6
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    My Emblem is
    RC cd
    RC heal
    Vocal heal
    MC cd
    SL cd
    WoC pulses

    I dont care about Melee skill healing stuff because its really minor heals compare to WoC and RC, but thats just me, plus this Emblem only uses 3 majors.

    Buff emblem stays same
    EfD cd
    ToN cd
    ToN morale reducer
    SoW increase
    SoD cd
    and maybe focus buff =) if u can max all of that

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by sarefx View Post
    My Emblem is
    RC cd
    RC heal
    Vocal heal
    MC cd
    SL cd
    WoC pulses

    I dont care about Melee skill healing stuff because its really minor heals compare to WoC and RC, but thats just me, plus this Emblem only uses 3 majors.

    Buff emblem stays same
    EfD cd
    ToN cd
    ToN morale reducer
    SoW increase
    SoD cd
    and maybe focus buff =) if u can max all of that
    Pretty much stays the same as before RoR, having buffed VS to give it a HoT even when untraited might convince me to make a melee healing emblem. As for insisting on not swapping, well, you got to have the buff emblem ready whether you like it or not. Too many useful and easily swappable legacies that shouldn't be on main emblem. Having said that you are free to use a 60 1A just for swapping and also it has more points.

  8. #8
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    "RC Healing" vs. "VS Healing"

    main point: RC +15% on 6 seconds CD (Perserverance) > VS +10% on 60 seconds CD (with HoH capstone)

    nothing to add
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  9. #9
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    If you're counting Perseverance, you also need to count Menestaid and Hytbold Healer, which cut 30 seconds or 42 off the VS cooldown for every Rallying Cry, in a 6-man fellowship.

    More importantly, though, Rallying Cry is not available on-demand. It needs either a dead mob or a crit on one of two mutually exclusive skills that are gated by the Battle-Readied state. You can get a lot of Rallying Cries off with Dagor/Pers LtC, but it's a straight up lie to claim that it generates one every 6 seconds.

    For one thing, DB and PA each have a 4.2s cooldown, and our absolute maximum crit rating is 30%. So even if you were constantly Battle-Readied (which is not possible; even with all the CD reductions on them, Battle-Shout and Shadow's Lament will spend at least some time on cooldown, never mind the power cost), you could get two chances at generating a defeat event per 4 seconds. In 6 seconds, you could get two extra chances. Math happens, and we found out that under these absolutely ideal, actually impossible in real life circumstances, there's still only a 76% chance of actually getting a Rallying Cry every 6 seconds. Oh, and I didn't factor level differences, your miss chance, the target mob's crit defence, etc., etc.

    Granted, that 76% assumes a single target, but the other circumstances involved are unrealistic enough that I think the point stands.

    If you're curious, the chance of getting a crit for a Pressing Attack vs. 4 targets is also 76%. Two of those can happen in a given 6 second period, so that's actually a 94% chance. Ok, cool, that's pretty good. If you literally get a Battle-Readied state every single time Pressing Attack is off cooldown, which nobody does.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  10. #10
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    Well, I did a little more observing while running some skraids tonight. This is on the topic of what heals more and is more worthy of an emblem spot: VS or RC?

    I wasn't lagging too much tonight, and I was generally good about utilizing the 3-GC bonus whenever I hit Rallying Cry. 3-Perseverance always on too. Still traited 5r/2b MoW.

    Fighting tons of trash, VS seemed to do about 80% of my RC heals. I reckon 2 RCs to every VS which was ticking most of the time. I did save parses from a long engagement of several Methedras chained trash waves and also half of the bossfight (I got smoked by a drake somehow, probably eyeing CA too closely).

    Now, the T&M bossfight gave me different results. I was tanking the half-orc, who we killed last, and counting my RCs and VSs. I think I did like 22 RCs and 13 VSs total (I may have gotten off one or two on RC). Not quite 100% uptime on VS, cause I had a big dry spell on defeat responses at one point. Maybe Balak spawned his banner behind me and I missed it, idk (or maybe that was Rose's healing banner). At any rate, I did 461k heals with VS and 429k heals with RC. Everyone was always in range of everything, thank Egg for that change to VS. I just thought it was odd that VS healed for more. I do attribute that almost totally to using the 3-GC bonus when I hit RC (incurring slight hit on heals for RC but paying back so much more in VS cooldown reduction), and I would like to restate that I had a dry period for defeat responses during that fight.

    My parses are saved. Are the files transferable to others?
    Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Oct 27 2012 at 11:55 PM.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    If you're counting Perseverance, you also need to count Menestaid and Hytbold Healer, which cut 30 seconds or 42 off the VS cooldown for every Rallying Cry, in a 6-man fellowship.

    More importantly, though, Rallying Cry is not available on-demand. It needs either a dead mob or a crit on one of two mutually exclusive skills that are gated by the Battle-Readied state. You can get a lot of Rallying Cries off with Dagor/Pers LtC, but it's a straight up lie to claim that it generates one every 6 seconds.

    For one thing, DB and PA each have a 4.2s cooldown, and our absolute maximum crit rating is 30%. So even if you were constantly Battle-Readied (which is not possible; even with all the CD reductions on them, Battle-Shout and Shadow's Lament will spend at least some time on cooldown, never mind the power cost), you could get two chances at generating a defeat event per 4 seconds. In 6 seconds, you could get two extra chances. Math happens, and we found out that under these absolutely ideal, actually impossible in real life circumstances, there's still only a 76% chance of actually getting a Rallying Cry every 6 seconds. Oh, and I didn't factor level differences, your miss chance, the target mob's crit defence, etc., etc.

    Granted, that 76% assumes a single target, but the other circumstances involved are unrealistic enough that I think the point stands.

    If you're curious, the chance of getting a crit for a Pressing Attack vs. 4 targets is also 76%. Two of those can happen in a given 6 second period, so that's actually a 94% chance. Ok, cool, that's pretty good. If you literally get a Battle-Readied state every single time Pressing Attack is off cooldown, which nobody does.
    But =P there is only possible way to spam RC thats if trash is dying or minis giving cappy a call to greatness. SO lets say we r in boss fight one boss no adds, and we need to get War Cry up and RC up for heals and power restore often. While traited HoH is not possible to keep those things up often. While traited red(dont forget about 5% crit on melee) with 3dagor/3perseverance its not a problem plus we gain more dps, and from what I see right now almost all raid fights will be dps race, so extra dps will count. So thats why this build wins, not to mantion we r able to use VS outside of HoH even its little bit weaker. Im not arguing that while traited blue we will get more heals overall(how much more?), but remember cappy heals without spamming RC r weak in general u cant depend on them to save someone, and do we need more heals while nerfing alot other side of the cappy? Some fights r exceptions. Im just touching an edge of the iceberg about cappy play style for raids( r we talking about raids? because thats only one place aside from moors where critical thinking is needed).

  12. #12
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    That's why I was very careful in my first post to specify a difference between HoH and LtC Captains. They simply care about different things.

    Or, to put it another way:

    The assumption of HoH vs. LtC will make a big difference in your choice of legacies, I think. Valiant Strike Healing now has a place on a general emblem, but an LtC build will still prefer Rallying Cry Healing. RC has a bigger initial heal than VS does, and benefits more from the percentage legacy.
    Whoever said that was totally super smart, and probably amazingly handsome as well.

    So, more than anything, I really consider RoR a win for Captain diversity.

    (And not to mention that the thread topic was supposed to be a discussion of healing emblem legacies, not whether any particular set up is the best, most optimal one for the current raiding metagame. Yes, LtC is the clearly superior Captain build for raiding when you're not a main healer, especially since the actually difficult raid content is not ten levels below everybody, so the extra healing from HoH is even more wasted than usual. Although I think it might be quite interesting to stick an HoH Captain into a fellowship with a Harmony Minstrel or something, instead of a pure healing Minstrel or RK.)
    Last edited by furtim; Oct 28 2012 at 09:36 AM.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  13. #13
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    Biggest thing I like about the expansion: because of the SoW changes, it means that Song Brother is stepping up in the world.

    Taking the above, think I'll try to shoot for:
    Vocal Skills healing
    Melee Skills Healing
    RC Cooldown
    RC Healing
    VS Healing
    MC Cooldown

    That's not as hard to do now as it once was, thanks to Crystals of Remembrance - also allows me to tack on a might legacy for a little more healing oomph.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  14. #14
    note that some of the emblems you propose here are not possible since we have second ages atm

    my SA 85 emblem:
    vocal heals
    RC c/d
    RC heals
    SL c/d
    MC c/d
    might
    gave up a major because of the lack of points i mentioned before. this emblem is also perfect for soloing aside from the lack of Grave wound.

    buff-c/d emblem stays the same:
    ToN c/d
    ToN cost
    EfD c/d
    SoW effects
    SoD c/d

    and the Valiant strike changes made me do this emblem also that i use for VS only - 85 TA:
    maxed heal rating (this beats your 75 FA)
    VS heal
    Melee heal
    might
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  15. #15
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    What's with all the MC cooldown legacies? I don't really get the appeal. 30s is good enough for stuff like Thorog, and the heal doesn't seem too big...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pero_the_Cappy View Post
    and the Valiant strike changes made me do this emblem also that i use for VS only - 85 TA:
    maxed heal rating (this beats your 75 FA)
    VS heal
    Melee heal
    might
    Hey, that sounds pretty legit.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    What's with all the MC cooldown legacies? I don't really get the appeal. 30s is good enough for stuff like Thorog, and the heal doesn't seem too big...
    I find MC c/d very useful when soloing instances or 1v1ing creeps. -10s makes a difference for me.
    And since i like my solo and heal emblem be the same one (with my setup one doesnt hurt the other a bit imo) it just has to be there :P. Plus its useful for instances with lots of fears, one of which you mentioned.
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  17. #17
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    MC Cooldown could be useful for Saruman, as well, I suppose. Though the phase of the fight where it's relevant is over pretty quickly.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  18. #18
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    Well, I'm planning to build my Captain like this in HoH:

    HoH Emblem:
    RC Heal
    RC CD
    Vocal Heal
    Melee Heal
    VS Heal (and this one is the only real difference between a DPS and a heal emblem IMO, as a DPS emblem would have SL cd instead)
    Might
    Perhaps Vitality

    Swap Emblem
    SoW
    MC CD
    SotD CD
    ToN CD
    ToN Morale
    EfD CD

    As much as I think VS heal is worthwhile in a HoH build, it's far from required to have a good healing build.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    What's with all the MC cooldown legacies? I don't really get the appeal. 30s is good enough for stuff like Thorog, and the heal doesn't seem too big...
    I like it because it gives me a 20 second fear wipe - which was more useful in instances past than it is now.

    After thinking about it a bit, WoC pulses (or another minor) is probably a better choice.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    MC Cooldown could be useful for Saruman, as well, I suppose. Though the phase of the fight where it's relevant is over pretty quickly.
    Clearly u never did Saruman t2 =P

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pero_the_Cappy View Post
    and the Valiant strike changes made me do this emblem also that i use for VS only - 85 TA:
    maxed heal rating (this beats your 75 FA)
    VS heal
    Melee heal
    might
    Thats a very good point sir. Now Im thinking my self to make a new emblem just with those legacies and special relics. Because swapping emblem for a 1:30 cd skill is not too bad, specially in moors 1v1 where is everything counts.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Well, I'm planning to build my Captain like this in HoH:

    HoH Emblem:
    RC Heal
    RC CD
    Vocal Heal
    Melee Heal
    VS Heal (and this one is the only real difference between a DPS and a heal emblem IMO, as a DPS emblem would have SL cd instead)
    Might
    Perhaps Vitality

    Swap Emblem
    SoW
    MC CD
    SotD CD
    ToN CD
    ToN Morale
    EfD CD

    As much as I think VS heal is worthwhile in a HoH build, it's far from required to have a good healing build.
    Seems very good, but your HoH emblem have 5 Major legacies. Is it possible, even with a 85 FA, to max it all?
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  23. #23
    To be honest the DPS 5 set bonus I find to be the most beneficial for Captain. I will be taking this set and always be the one on revealing mark. My emblem will remain

    RC CD
    RC Healing
    Melee Skills healing
    Vocal skills healing
    WoC Pulses
    MC CD
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarefx View Post
    Clearly u never did Saruman t2 =P
    The only T2 I've done is Lightning, so fair enough.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  25. #25
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    Vocal Skills healing
    Melee Skills Healing
    RC Cooldown
    RC Healing
    Strength of Will
    VS Healing


    i think ill end up more like this. Muster Courage is great, but it is usually my lowest of the high-priority legacies.



    we need such beastly Class Lengendaries compared to most other classes. i guess it balances that we can slack on our weps more, legacy-wise.
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