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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath View Post
    As for Hobbits - think of them as a branch of Men which long ago split away from the rest and took to living underground, gradually becoming smaller and smaller. It's entirely possible as even in our world just a few centuries ago people were quite a bit shorter, let alone the vast expanses of time which take place in Middle-earth. Maybe they lived somewhere in the vast lands east of Mirkwood before their earliest known origins in the Vales of Anduin. After all Men ultimately originated in the far east and alot of migration to the west took place over centuries. Maybe the Hobbits just took alot longer.
    that's a good theory. I guess hobbits are really suited for lotro's burglar class since they've been sneaking around for ages it's just weird why they lost their history, that their songs are few and as if the other races have no idea about their existence before the 3rd age...maybe the professor intended it that way so that only gandalf knows how courageous they can be?
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    One thing to add: Nimrodel didn't become mortal but her children evidently were (assuming the legend about the Princes of Dol Amroth was true). However, she was just a Silvan Elf, whereas the Half-elves had spectacularly exalted ancestry (Luthien was the daughter of Elu Thingol, who'd seen the Light of the Two Trees, and Melian the Maia). I imagine that was what was supposed to have made the difference and made that bloodline the exception, with Luthien's son Dior being the first of the Half-elven.

    As regards Elves marrying Men, it's spelled out in no uncertain terms by Tolkien in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (a discussion between Finrod and the Edain wise-woman Andreth) how cruel to both parties such a marriage would be, and that Finrod believed that it would only ever happen 'for some high purpose of Doom' (if it was fated, in other words). In her younger days, Andreth and a High Elf named Aegnor had fallen in love but they had not married because Aegnor had had the wisdom to see how it would have turned out and so he'd left her, to spare them both the terrible anguish they'd have inevitably suffered if they'd married.

    That's also reflected in how Nimrodel left Imrazor, after she'd borne their children - I imagine she'd realized that not only would her husband swiftly age and die, from her perspective, but so would her children and their children, and their children's children, while she remained ageless. So she fled, one night, and was never seen again.

    With it all being that glum and tragic, nobody should wonder why Elves and Men kept themselves to themselves. (This is why I tend to get grumpy when people are casual about RPing marriages between Men and Elves).
    so there's even a status quo among elves?
    it seems the professor's works don't contain much heart-fluttering romance nor scandalous affairs, it's either happily ever after or tragic. not that it's bad but somehow it strengthens the setting of a civilization with a rather straightforward morality. the only "twisted" characters are the enemies.
    in relation to RPing, I haven't tried it, but it would seem difficult to be in character especially if you're an elf. age matters obviously, you can't claim to be born in the middle of the 2nd age and was just eating lembas during the war of the last alliance or fall in love without consequence with a man. I'd very much rather be a hobbit with less lore to support my behavior

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by kittypoo View Post
    so there's even a status quo among elves?
    There was a definite 'pecking order', yes. The ruling caste was comprised of Sindar and Noldor - you can see that in Thranduil's realm (he was Sindarin) and in Lorien.

  3. #28
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    Well... I don't think a Man would fall in love with a female Hobbit, nor a woman with a male Hobbit.

    As far as Dwarves go, they only do things with beards, which rules out human women and probably disgusts all human Men.
    The Road goes ever on and on, down from the door where it began.
    Now far ahead the Road has gone, and I must follow, if I can.
    ~Bilbo Baggins~

  4. #29
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    DwarfFriend, you must be new to the internet.

    Also, there's a peg for every hole.
    [CENTER][COLOR="RoyalBlue"]<< Co-founder of [I][U][SIZE="4"]The Firebrands of Caruja[/SIZE][/U][/I] on Landroval >>
    Ceolford of Dale, Dorolin, Tordag, Garberend Bellheather, Colfinn Belegorn, Garmo Butterbuckles, Calensarn Nimlos, Langtiriel, Bergteir[/COLOR]
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  5. #30
    Oh, I can easily imagine Elanor The Fair having her share of human admirers while she was serving as one of Arwen's maids.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by kittypoo View Post
    ...were there half-dwarves or half-hobbits in middle-earth?

    since I haven't read all available Tolkien material out there, my "research" is confined with what's online and my LOTR + the hobbit + silmarillion books. and so far only half-elves (or half-men) were mentioned (half-orcs/goblin men are of course a different story).

    is it because both dwarves and hobbits are confined in their regions and have little to no reason for exploring the middle-earth (basically little to no chance of meeting/interacting with other races)? but what about staddle?

    my other guess is because writing a half-hobbit frodo or half-dwarf gimli would require some unnecessary drama about the family tree when they can just be regular folks :P
    Don't have time to read the entire thread, but here's a go at my shorter answer:

    No, there would be no half-dwarves. They are a completely different creature and likely not compatible. Half-hobbits are certainly a physical possibility, as the Professor did state that hobbits are in fact a branch of the race of Men; however, that said, they also had a tendency not to not trust Big Folk, and Tolkien probably would have, as someone else said, left that as taboo (though he does infer that as the Ages passed, hobbits became more like Men or went into hiding . . . so in these modern days, who knows?) But there is nothing to support half-hobbits in the time of LotR or even the Fourth Age, for that matter.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berephon View Post
    Don't have time to read the entire thread, but here's a go at my shorter answer:
    Thank you for the post, Berephon. This is what we (the forum-going player base) like to see.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abiyah View Post
    Thank you for the post, Berephon. This is what we (the forum-going player base) like to see.
    This is the first day in a very long while that I've had some time to 'trol (as opposed to troll) the forums. I miss it.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berephon View Post
    This is the first day in a very long while that I've had some time to 'trol (as opposed to troll) the forums. I miss it.
    I realize it'd be a sort of busman's holiday, but you don't/can't read the forums in off-time?

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abiyah View Post
    I realize it'd be a sort of busman's holiday, but you don't/can't read the forums in off-time?
    Could I? Sure. Would my wife hang me by my foot-hairs for wasting my family time on forums? Even more likely.

    (Seriously, though, I have a long commute every day, leaving very little time to spend with the wife and kids, and my fifth novel occupying the post bedtime hour. "Off-time" really doesn't apply to me.)

  11. #36
    I have always though that there was some elvish blood in Fallohides and I think this is hinted at in some of professor's writings (LotR appendices most likely)...

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla View Post
    I have always though that there was some elvish blood in Fallohides and I think this is hinted at in some of professor's writings (LotR appendices most likely)...
    From The Hobbit, Chapter 1; An Unexpected Party:

    ...As I was saying, the mother of this hobbit - of Bilbo Baggins, that is - was the fabulous Belladonna Took, one of the three remarkable daughters of the Old Took, head of the hobbits who lived across The Water, the small river that ran at the foot of The Hill. It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife. That was, of course, absurd, but certainly there was still something not entirely hobbit-like about them, - and once in a while members of the Took-clan would go and have adventures. ...
    Here, the professor, within 2 sentences, suggests and dismisses the thought.
    "Just like Mary Shelly, Just like Frankenstein, Break your chains, And count your change, And try to walk the line"

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath View Post
    It seems people today when reading LotR see everything in the overly sexualised context of our present day society, they do the same thing for Frodo and Sam as well, portraying their bond as something it definitely wasn't.
    Ooooooh, it irks me everytime people think that way about Frodo and Sam, especially when they ignore the fact that Sam got married and had kids.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    [I][FONT=comic sans ms][COLOR=#ffff00]Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check[/COLOR][/FONT][/I]

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Hey Buttercakes,

    Yer siggy always reminds me of this Grateful Dead lyric..."Nine mile skid, on a ten mile ride...Hot as a pistol, but cool inside."
    "Just like Mary Shelly, Just like Frankenstein, Break your chains, And count your change, And try to walk the line"

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berephon View Post
    Don't have time to read the entire thread, but here's a go at my shorter answer:

    No, there would be no half-dwarves. They are a completely different creature and likely not compatible. Half-hobbits are certainly a physical possibility, as the Professor did state that hobbits are in fact a branch of the race of Men; however, that said, they also had a tendency not to not trust Big Folk, and Tolkien probably would have, as someone else said, left that as taboo (though he does infer that as the Ages passed, hobbits became more like Men or went into hiding . . . so in these modern days, who knows?) But there is nothing to support half-hobbits in the time of LotR or even the Fourth Age, for that matter.
    wow. I haven't visited this thread in a long time. thanks Berephon for making time and sharing your knowledge!
    I think halfway into the discussion it was established that the professor simply did not discuss half-dwarves nor half-hobbits in his legendarium. I agree it must have been taboo.

    just to emphasize (for the other newer replies after Rad's October post) my curiosity was more on the professor's poetic choices, not on 'shipping' the races. the professor's fellow Inkling CS Lewis wrote about half-dwarfs but arguably made all narnian dwarfs male. but that's narnia.
    apparently for the professor's middle-earth, "interracial marriage" is either a tragedy or taboo

  16. #41
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    I don't think 'taboo' has anything to do with it. These aren't actually races we're talking about (a 'race' would be the difference between the men of northwest of ME - Gondor, Rohan etc - to those of Harad or Khand, for example). I honestly just don't think the concept of Dwarves or Hobbits 'mixing' with Elves and Men entered his mind in any real way. I can't see why he would have thought such a thing 'taboo'. In the case of Dwarves I'd imagine it would be physically impossible for them to produce offspring with any of the other 'races'. As for Hobbits - well size does play a part here. Plus their way of life is very insular.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath View Post
    I don't think 'taboo' has anything to do with it. These aren't actually races we're talking about (a 'race' would be the difference between the men of northwest of ME - Gondor, Rohan etc - to those of Harad or Khand, for example). I honestly just don't think the concept of Dwarves or Hobbits 'mixing' with Elves and Men entered his mind in any real way. I can't see why he would have thought such a thing 'taboo'. In the case of Dwarves I'd imagine it would be physically impossible for them to produce offspring with any of the other 'races'. As for Hobbits - well size does play a part here. Plus their way of life is very insular.
    I used 'race' since that's how the peoples of middle-earth are addressed in-game.
    on the use of taboo, I think it was directed to the mechanics--the dwarves being creations of aule while the men and elves as children of the iluvatar, not the professor avoiding the subject because it's taboo--that's what I'm agreeing on.

  18. #43
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    I wouldn't contrast Dwarves as children of Aulë vs. Elves and Men those of Ilúvatar since no contrasting against Ilúvatar in such a context is ultimately possible. The Naugrim are in several places actually referred to as the "adopted children of Ilúvatar" because it was He who gave them true life. What Aulë initially made were like puppets with no free will of their own. In the lengthy discussions on the nature and origins of Orcs, Trolls etc. (especially in the 10th volume of History and also in letters, but definitely elsewhere too) this nature of Dwarves is referred to. In a similar sense, some Elves' naming of Orcs "children of Melkor" is dismissed.

    I would instead emphasize their being of a different "species" with distinct anatomy (consider the virtually identical appearance of males and females), which renders it impossible for them to unite and breed offspring with Elves or Men. (Different yet not too remote...)

  19. #44
    Among elves it was rare...and all the ones the relationships with men that did occur were recorded, and tragic affairs. For one, Elves lose their immortality when they get frisky with mortals.

    People have to get the Hollywood portrayal of Elves out of their head too. From what I recall on the description of Elves, the males and females were difficult to tell apart by men.

    I can't imagine a dwarf finding humans attractive...okay, maybe if it was a short, hairy guy.

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Jestina View Post
    Among elves it was rare...and all the ones the relationships with men that did occur were recorded, and tragic affairs. For one, Elves lose their immortality when they get frisky with mortals.
    I disagree, there were three recording pairings. First, Tuor and Idril. Except for the fall of Gondolin, which was inevitable, what was tragic here? Tuor and Idril sailed West and their fate is unknown except 'it is said...' that Tuor was the only man to be accounted as one of the Eldar. Beren and Luthien. Is it a tragedy that Luthien relinquished her mortality to restore life to Beren and share it with him? The Eldar thought it a tragedy as Luthien was the most beautiful of the Children of Iluvatar and they lost her. Luthien might not agree. Aragorn and Arwen. Arwen had the choice of the half-elven before her and she chose Aragorn and mortality with him. Again a tragedy to the Elves but it was Arwen's choice to make. Except for the special case of Finwe, Elves chose a single mate which would last until the End so they chose very carefully. Nowhere have I read that the simple act of getting 'frisky' with a man caused a loss of immortality.
    [FONT=Trebuchet MS]"You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81


    [/FONT]

  21. #46
    Luthien was unique. She did "die" of grief after Beren passed...but was made mortal by Mandos and returned with Beren to Arda. To understand the loss of immortality for an Elf, we would have to go into a deep discussion. It is not just the physical form of an Elf that is affected, but also their soul. The fate of an Elf is tied to Arda, they don't truly die like men do. When the soul of an Elf become free from the physical body, they go to the halls of Mandos where they can eventually be reincarnated and return to Aman. Men on the other hand face true death and departure.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urwendil View Post

    I wouldn't contrast Dwarves as children of Aulë vs. Elves and Men those of Ilúvatar since no contrasting against Ilúvatar in such a context is ultimately possible. The Naugrim are in several places actually referred to as the "adopted children of Ilúvatar" because it was He who gave them true life. What Aulë initially made were like puppets with no free will of their own. In the lengthy discussions on the nature and origins of Orcs, Trolls etc. (especially in the 10th volume of History and also in letters, but definitely elsewhere too) this nature of Dwarves is referred to. In a similar sense, some Elves' naming of Orcs "children of Melkor" is dismissed.

    I would instead emphasize their being of a different "species" with distinct anatomy (consider the virtually identical appearance of males and females), which renders it impossible for them to unite and breed offspring with Elves or Men. (Different yet not too remote...)
    I wrote "creations of aule".
    I think what we could all agree on is the 'distinct anatomy', which as earlier discussed in this thread seemed to be only shared by the true children of iluvatar, in such sense I agreed it would have been taboo to have inter-species (I guess that's a better term than 'interracial') "relations" with dwarves
    regarding elf-men "relations", I think Rad shared good points here

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath View Post
    I honestly just don't think the concept of Dwarves or Hobbits 'mixing' with Elves and Men entered his mind in any real way.
    I honestly feel that this is the case. It's probably as simple as him never even thinking about it.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    [I][FONT=comic sans ms][COLOR=#ffff00]Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check[/COLOR][/FONT][/I]

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla View Post
    I have always though that there was some elvish blood in Fallohides and I think this is hinted at in some of professor's writings (LotR appendices most likely)...


    Quote Originally Posted by Boraxxe View Post
    From The Hobbit, Chapter 1; An Unexpected Party:

    ...As I was saying, the mother of this hobbit - of Bilbo Baggins, that is - was the fabulous Belladonna Took, one of the three remarkable daughters of the Old Took, head of the hobbits who lived across The Water, the small river that ran at the foot of The Hill. It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife. That was, of course, absurd, but certainly there was still something not entirely hobbit-like about them, - and once in a while members of the Took-clan would go and have adventures. ...
    Here, the professor, within 2 sentences, suggests and dismisses the thought.

    No, the professor states quite clearly that it was absurd that “long ago one of the Took ancestors “must” have taken a fairy wife”. He does not say that there is no elvish blood in the Fallohides. Whether he says that elsewhere in his writing, I do not know; but this particular passage is very clear.

    The subsequent line; “but certainly there was still something not entirely hobbit-like about them” would appear to leave it up to us to speculate.
    Last edited by RKL; Feb 18 2013 at 03:40 AM.

  25. #50
    That was ongoing theme with Tolkien. The races did not mingle, with a couple of exceptions...like the Stoors or the wood elves having established trade with me. Most men probably never saw and elf their entire life...and I think the dwarves were just as reclusive.

 

 
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