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  1. #1
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    Just wondering...

    ...were there half-dwarves or half-hobbits in middle-earth?

    since I haven't read all available Tolkien material out there, my "research" is confined with what's online and my LOTR + the hobbit + silmarillion books. and so far only half-elves (or half-men) were mentioned (half-orcs/goblin men are of course a different story).

    is it because both dwarves and hobbits are confined in their regions and have little to no reason for exploring the middle-earth (basically little to no chance of meeting/interacting with other races)? but what about staddle?

    my other guess is because writing a half-hobbit frodo or half-dwarf gimli would require some unnecessary drama about the family tree when they can just be regular folks :P
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    Sorry Kitty, the little people never mixed it up in the bedroom. Or at least if they did, J.R.R. thought it so taboo that it was never mentioned. Half-elves are the only 'mixed race'. And even they seem to weasel out of it by choosing which one they want to be.

    ...I always wondered how that worked. Was there a form? Or was it like a bar mitzvah, a big party where you decide what you are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iodan View Post
    Sorry Kitty, the little people never mixed it up in the bedroom. Or at least if they did, J.R.R. thought it so taboo that it was never mentioned. Half-elves are the only 'mixed race'. And even they seem to weasel out of it by choosing which one they want to be.
    I wondered too if it was taboo to expound on it esp during mid-20th century, I mean for one gimli had this huge crush on galadriel which suggests "interracial" attraction isn't impossible
    Quote Originally Posted by Iodan View Post
    ...I always wondered how that worked. Was there a form? Or was it like a bar mitzvah, a big party where you decide what you are.
    lol. just had a mental image of elros and elrond at their bar mitzvah
    I'd love to imagine it as a solemn ceremony where they visit the valar to sign up for the valinor boat trip or not but alas I have no imagination :P
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    Elves and Men seem to be the most "similar" and even then documented half-elves are pretty rare, only 2 (or 1 really) lines of them ever mentioned and they went on to be fairly well known.

    Dwarf-Dwarf relations are rare enough, other races can't even tell the difference between the Dwarf genders so I very much doubt anything else down that road would be on the cards. Dwarves are secretive enough about their ways and traditions, I don't think they'd look too kindly on interracial ...goings on. That's even if it's biologically possible, they're made by Aule, not Eru, he might have had different mechanics in mind.

    I seem to remember somewhere Tolkien saying that Hobbits were very closely related to Man (that could be complete rubbish though, its a vague memory at best). You'd think then that some sort of cross-race kids would be pretty common, especially given the close proximity in places like Bree. Perhaps it's just too weird for the Men to consider, I mean, hobbits would be only children to their eyes, after all.

    Enough is made of the half-elven and their descendants to make me think Tolkien had the whole half-whatever thing down as very rare and unusual in his world. Half-Orcs are, as you say, a different case involving all sorts of evil and god knows what else, perhaps Tolkien never even considered Man-Dwarf/Hobbit children as a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by kittypoo View Post
    I wondered too if it was taboo to expound on it esp during mid-20th century, I mean for one gimli had this huge crush on galadriel which suggests "interracial" attraction isn't impossible
    I don't think Gimli's "love" for Galadriel was supposed to be a crush in 'that way'. I think it was supposed to be more like how you could "love" a particular area of countryside or an epic waterfall or whatever. I don't think he was ever particularly sexually attracted, it's a bit of a movie-ism that I think, it's probably pretty difficult to convey the difference on film.
    Last edited by Curandhras; Oct 25 2012 at 12:02 PM.
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    See, we belong to the Race of Man (and this is directed to men in general)

    Look at the female Elves in-game. Is it really difficult to understand why some of us (Beren, Aragorn and Tuor) wanted to get some?

    Now look at female Hobbits and female (?) Dwarves. Now you'll understand why there aren't any half-hobbits/dwarves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunt123 View Post
    See, we belong to the Race of Man (and this is directed to men in general)

    Look at the female Elves in-game. Is it really difficult to understand why some of us (Beren, Aragorn and Tuor) wanted to get some?

    Now look at female Hobbits and female (?) Dwarves. Now you'll understand why there aren't any half-hobbits/dwarves.
    Haha, best answer so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kittypoo View Post
    ...were there half-dwarves or half-hobbits in middle-earth?
    There's no indication of half-dwarves. And really none for half-hobbits, at least in the sense you mean. If you'll remember, Gollum's ancestral family was, as described by Tolkien, an antecedent to the hobbits of the trilogy's time period. Whether or not they were full-blood, or simply an archetype isn't made clear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kittypoo View Post
    I wondered too if it was taboo to expound on it esp during mid-20th century, I mean for one gimli had this huge crush on galadriel which suggests "interracial" attraction isn't impossible
    For one thing it isn't 'interracial' as they're essentially seperate 'species', not races. Secondly the 'thing' Gimli had for Galadriel wasn't a 'crush' in that sense. It seems people today when reading LotR see everything in the overly sexualised context of our present day society, they do the same thing for Frodo and Sam as well, portraying their bond as something it definitely wasn't.
    [b][color=lightblue]"[i]'Ai! ai!'[/i] wailed Legolas. [i]'A Rune-Keeper! A Rune-Keeper is come!'[/i]

    Gimli stared with wide eyes. [i]'Tolkien's Bane!'[/i] he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."[/color][/b]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curandhras View Post
    Dwarves are secretive enough about their ways and traditions, I don't think they'd look too kindly on interracial ...goings on. That's even if it's biologically possible, they're made by Aule, not Eru, he might have had different mechanics in mind.
    As they weren't Children of Iluvatar it seems reasonable enough to suggest they'd not be inter-fertile with the other races. As for 'mechanics', I tip my hat to the wag who suggested in a thread a while back that Dwarves were born as beards and grew all the rest later

    I seem to remember somewhere Tolkien saying that Hobbits were very closely related to Man (that could be complete rubbish though, its a vague memory at best). You'd think then that some sort of cross-race kids would be pretty common, especially given the close proximity in places like Bree. Perhaps it's just too weird for the Men to consider, I mean, hobbits would be only children to their eyes, after all.
    Too weird for Tolkien, too, more to the point.

    I don't think Gimli's "love" for Galadriel was supposed to be a crush in 'that way'.
    Yep, more of an aesthetic thing, I thought. Especially her hair, which was a perfect blend of Noldorin golden blonde with Vanyarin silver - you can imagine how that might bedazzle a Dwarf. Gimli might have been feeling a bit of almost religious awe, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curandhras View Post
    Elves and Men seem to be the most "similar" and even then documented half-elves are pretty rare, only 2 (or 1 really) lines of them ever mentioned and they went on to be fairly well known.

    Dwarf-Dwarf relations are rare enough, other races can't even tell the difference between the Dwarf genders so I very much doubt anything else down that road would be on the cards. Dwarves are secretive enough about their ways and traditions, I don't think they'd look too kindly on interracial ...goings on. That's even if it's biologically possible, they're made by Aule, not Eru, he might have had different mechanics in mind.
    oooh...good point.

    however, I've always imagined the middle-earth during the third age has a population of at least a million (including sauron & saruman's creations) that it's possible there's more than one clan who are half-elven, but the professor wrote only the lineage of those relevant to the story (mostly 'royal' families, no?) so I guess we'll never know...

    Quote Originally Posted by Curandhras View Post
    I seem to remember somewhere Tolkien saying that Hobbits were very closely related to Man (that could be complete rubbish though, its a vague memory at best). You'd think then that some sort of cross-race kids would be pretty common, especially given the close proximity in places like Bree. Perhaps it's just too weird for the Men to consider, I mean, hobbits would be only children to their eyes, after all.
    I don't remember which book mentioned it, but online the origin of hobbits do say they descended from men (http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Race:Hobbit), could this mean during the first or second age there were half-hobbits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Curandhras View Post
    Enough is made of the half-elven and their descendants to make me think Tolkien had the whole half-whatever thing down as very rare and unusual in his world. Half-Orcs are, as you say, a different case involving all sorts of evil and god knows what else, perhaps Tolkien never even considered Man-Dwarf/Hobbit children as a thing.



    I don't think Gimli's "love" for Galadriel was supposed to be a crush in 'that way'. I think it was supposed to be more like how you could "love" a particular area of countryside or an epic waterfall or whatever. I don't think he was ever particularly sexually attracted, it's a bit of a movie-ism that I think, it's probably pretty difficult to convey the difference on film.
    about gimli, the film shows very little of how huge his "crush" is:
    The travellers now turned their faces to the journey; the sun was before them, and their eyes were dazzled, for all were filled with tears. Gimli wept openly.

    "I have looked the last upon that which was fairest," he said to Legolas his companion. "Henceforward I will call nothing fair, unless it be her gift." He put his hand to his breast.

    "Tell me, Legolas, why did I come on this Quest? Little did I know where the chief peril lay! Truly Elrond spoke, saying that we could not foresee what we might meet upon our road. Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord. Alas for Gimli son of Gloin!"

    [Legolas: "...But you have not forsaken your companions, and the least reward that you shall have is that the memory of Lothlorien shall remain ever clear and unstained in your heart, and shall neither fade nor grow stale."]

    "Maybe," said Gimli; "and I thank you for your words. True words doubtless; yet all such comfort is cold. Memory is not what the heart desires. That is only a mirror, be it clear as Kheled-zaram. Or so says the heart of Gimli the Dwarf. Elves may see things otherwise. Indeed I have heard that for them memory is more like to the waking world than to a dream. Not so for Dwarves." LOTR:FOTR, Farewell to Lorien

    I'm not implying this is sexual attraction, but attraction nonetheless. gimli explicitly stated he felt something that can't be compared to just a memory, so I concluded he has a "huge crush" (actually I think he was in-love).

    Quote Originally Posted by Abiyah View Post
    There's no indication of half-dwarves. And really none for half-hobbits, at least in the sense you mean. If you'll remember, Gollum's ancestral family was, as described by Tolkien, an antecedent to the hobbits of the trilogy's time period. Whether or not they were full-blood, or simply an archetype isn't made clear.
    I think this is one angle I'd like to understand better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath View Post
    For one thing it isn't 'interracial' as they're essentially seperate 'species', not races. Secondly the 'thing' Gimli had for Galadriel wasn't a 'crush' in that sense. It seems people today when reading LotR see everything in the overly sexualised context of our present day society, they do the same thing for Frodo and Sam as well, portraying their bond as something it definitely wasn't.
    that's why I placed quotes in it, for lack of a better term (but in-game they're referred to as races so I'll stick with it for now)
    I think Curandhras' post explained a lot. I also want to be clear I'm not trying to "ship" the different races, especially not gimli and galadriel, I was simply pointing out being attracted to another race in middle-earth other than among elves and men wasn't impossible. yet the professor didn't expound on it, so was it literary constraints or I missed reading about the pride of dwarves being pure-blood etc.?

    thanks too for the replies, I'm learning a lot
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    Quote Originally Posted by kittypoo View Post
    it's possible there's more than one clan who are half-elven
    I'm afraid not - the known Half-elves were all there ever were. Fate intervened to prevent more being born - there were essentially only enough to serve Iluvatar's purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kittypoo View Post
    I think Curandhras' post explained a lot. I also want to be clear I'm not trying to "ship" the different races, especially not gimli and galadriel, I was simply pointing out being attracted to another race in middle-earth other than among elves and men wasn't impossible. yet the professor didn't expound on it, so was it literary constraints or I missed reading about the pride of dwarves being pure-blood etc.?
    Hobbits were far too small to realistically have relations with the other races. Dwarves were simply an odd bunch; their male/female ratio was off, they were made as a society heavily male dominated, their likes/dislikes and habits seem to be a bit off-kilter compared to the others. All due to them being made by someone inexperienced in making living things and not having a template to follow, which accounts for their size as well.
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    Gimli stared with wide eyes. [i]'Tolkien's Bane!'[/i] he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."[/color][/b]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abiyah View Post
    There's no indication of half-dwarves. And really none for half-hobbits, at least in the sense you mean. If you'll remember, Gollum's ancestral family was, as described by Tolkien, an antecedent to the hobbits of the trilogy's time period. Whether or not they were full-blood, or simply an archetype isn't made clear.
    Quote Originally Posted by kittypoo View Post
    I think this is one angle I'd like to understand better.
    I can't give any more direct evidence other than what is written in the books-- the story is given during the scenes of Smeagol and Deagol finding the ring.

    Anectdotally, though, think of it as evolution. That's why I call the ancestors a possible archetype. Hobbits are descendants of theirs-- doesn't necessarily mean they're the same bloodline.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    I'm afraid not - the known Half-elves were all there ever were. Fate intervened to prevent more being born - there were essentially only enough to serve Iluvatar's purposes.
    I see...how did Fate prevent it? was it the fall of numenor?
    I guess eldarion was the last true half-elven born to serve iluvatar's purpose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath View Post
    Hobbits were far too small to realistically have relations with the other races. Dwarves were simply an odd bunch; their male/female ratio was off, they were made as a society heavily male dominated, their likes/dislikes and habits seem to be a bit off-kilter compared to the others. All due to them being made by someone inexperienced in making living things and not having a template to follow, which accounts for their size as well.
    good points. but these seem to tackle more the possible reasons for preferences when "choosing partners"
    I think one reason elves detest dwarves especially during the 3rd age is because of their greed which resulted in the release of a balrog, not because they were oddly not as fair nor graceful as they are. but I'm not saying this makes the two compatible now

    Quote Originally Posted by Abiyah View Post
    I can't give any more direct evidence other than what is written in the books-- the story is given during the scenes of Smeagol and Deagol finding the ring.

    Anectdotally, though, think of it as evolution. That's why I call the ancestors a possible archetype. Hobbits are descendants of theirs-- doesn't necessarily mean they're the same bloodline.
    aw, too bad there's no more reference I guess smeagol's kin was the missing link?
    I think my idea of half-hobbit somehow lies along this line. maybe during the first and second age there were people that were of men but hobbit-like until they evolved and became the little folk that we now know
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    Quote Originally Posted by kittypoo View Post
    I see...how did Fate prevent it?
    It just didn't happen. Something would get in the way when it wasn't 'meant' to happen. Fate was basically the will of Iluvatar made manifest.

    I guess eldarion was the last true half-elven born to serve iluvatar's purpose?
    Eldarion wasn't a Half-elf; the last one to be born was Arwen. The thing that made someone a Half-elf was having the choice to be counted either among Elves or among Men, and Eldarion never got that choice because Arwen had chosen to become mortal in order to marry Aragorn. (Just as Aragorn's ancestor Elros had chosen to become mortal, with all his children being Men without getting any choice themselves).

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    Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth had elvish ancestors, the 1st prince of Dol Amroth Imrazor the Numenorean (how did he manage this nick name 2000 years after Numenor sunk?) married the elf maid Mithrellas and had two children Galador and Gilmith in TA 2004 making them the last half elven children born in Middle earth.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Morthaur View Post
    Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth had elvish ancestors, the 1st prince of Dol Amroth Imrazor the Numenorean (how did he manage this nick name 2000 years after Numenor sunk?) married the elf maid Mithrellas and had two children Galador and Gilmith in TA 2004 making them the last half elven children born in Middle earth.
    What book is this mentioned in ?
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    History of Middle Earth vols 5, and 12 from material ommitted from LotR appendices.

    also see Unfinished Tales p 248
    Last edited by Morthaur; Oct 26 2012 at 04:36 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Eldarion wasn't a Half-elf; the last one to be born was Arwen. The thing that made someone a Half-elf was having the choice to be counted either among Elves or among Men, and Eldarion never got that choice because Arwen had chosen to become mortal in order to marry Aragorn. (Just as Aragorn's ancestor Elros had chosen to become mortal, with all his children being Men without getting any choice themselves).
    I thought that since Elrond chose to be judged as an elf, Arwen was too. That would make Eldarion a half-elf. It's not entirely without precedent, since Dior (?) the son of Beren and Luthien never chose to be defined as either a man or elf.
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    If Eldarion was able to choose to be counted amongst the firstborn then he would have been subject to the "fading of the elves" in the fourth age so he would live longer as a human, not that I subscribe to the theorey but as a literary device its inescapable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morthaur View Post
    Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth had elvish ancestors, the 1st prince of Dol Amroth Imrazor the Numenorean (how did he manage this nick name 2000 years after Numenor sunk?) married the elf maid Mithrellas and had two children Galador and Gilmith in TA 2004 making them the last half elven children born in Middle earth.
    They weren't Half-elves as Tolkien defined the term. Mithrellas was just a Wood-elf rather than one of the more lofty varieties, and so her children were all mortal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoyKashka View Post
    I thought that since Elrond chose to be judged as an elf, Arwen was too. That would make Eldarion a half-elf. It's not entirely without precedent, since Dior (?) the son of Beren and Luthien never chose to be defined as either a man or elf.
    It was more that Elvish agelessness was something which a Half-elf could choose to give up but if they did, that choice was binding on any children they had subsequently and so they'd all be mortal, no choice in the matter. So, Half-elves existed like Elves to begin with and could apparently do so indefinitely unless they made the choice to become mortal, as Arwen did.

    '...for mine is the choice of Luthien, and as she so have I chosen, both the sweet and the bitter.'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    It just didn't happen. Something would get in the way when it wasn't 'meant' to happen. Fate was basically the will of Iluvatar made manifest.
    oh, that fate. I was thinking maybe you meant fate of men/gift of men, or the consequence of the fall of numenor which fated the men to shorter lifespans and I believe an eternal ban to valinor unless permitted by the valar, which in general makes men a poor choice for a spouse to elves since they would die first and would make elves suffer eternal loneliness, which as I understand it was against the will of eru. one of arwen and aragorn's couple issues, too

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Eldarion wasn't a Half-elf; the last one to be born was Arwen. The thing that made someone a Half-elf was having the choice to be counted either among Elves or among Men, and Eldarion never got that choice because Arwen had chosen to become mortal in order to marry Aragorn. (Just as Aragorn's ancestor Elros had chosen to become mortal, with all his children being Men without getting any choice themselves).
    oh poo, totally forgot about the bar mitzvah thing, thanks for pointing it out

    and with regard to the recent replies,
    - no other known family line other than elrond's was recognized as half-elven
    - other elf-man couples ended up both mortal making their offspring automatically mortal
    - any family line can have elvish blood but not all had the option to choose immortality like true half-elves
    I believe these points have established what is known about half-elves

    in conclusion, it seems the professor has envisioned the middle-earth as having a caste system, with the elves as the top dogs and exogamous marriage was only permitted among the children of iluvatar and in which case, the couple's status decreases a notch because they usually end up as mortals.
    I'm convinced it would definitely be taboo to write about any union between the other races since marriage between different castes has always been scandalous. I'm looking at this as more of a poetic choice for the professor or the possible direction of his writing, and I really wish there were more notes on the origin of the hobbits because that would definitely shed a better light on this.

    thanks so much for the replies, I've learned a lot
    Last edited by kittypoo; Oct 26 2012 at 05:29 AM.
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    As for Hobbits - think of them as a branch of Men which long ago split away from the rest and took to living underground, gradually becoming smaller and smaller. It's entirely possible as even in our world just a few centuries ago people were quite a bit shorter, let alone the vast expanses of time which take place in Middle-earth. Maybe they lived somewhere in the vast lands east of Mirkwood before their earliest known origins in the Vales of Anduin. After all Men ultimately originated in the far east and alot of migration to the west took place over centuries. Maybe the Hobbits just took alot longer.
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    Gimli stared with wide eyes. [i]'Tolkien's Bane!'[/i] he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."[/color][/b]

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    Quote Originally Posted by kittypoo View Post
    and with regard to the recent replies,
    - no other known family line other than elrond's was recognized as half-elven
    - other elf-man couples ended up both mortal making their offspring automatically mortal
    - any family line can have elvish blood but not all had the option to choose immortality like true half-elves
    I believe these points have established what is known about half-elves
    One thing to add: Nimrodel didn't become mortal but her children evidently were (assuming the legend about the Princes of Dol Amroth was true). However, she was just a Silvan Elf, whereas the Half-elves had spectacularly exalted ancestry (Luthien was the daughter of Elu Thingol, who'd seen the Light of the Two Trees, and Melian the Maia). I imagine that was what was supposed to have made the difference and made that bloodline the exception, with Luthien's son Dior being the first of the Half-elven.

    As regards Elves marrying Men, it's spelled out in no uncertain terms by Tolkien in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (a discussion between Finrod and the Edain wise-woman Andreth) how cruel to both parties such a marriage would be, and that Finrod believed that it would only ever happen 'for some high purpose of Doom' (if it was fated, in other words). In her younger days, Andreth and a High Elf named Aegnor had fallen in love but they had not married because Aegnor had had the wisdom to see how it would have turned out and so he'd left her, to spare them both the terrible anguish they'd have inevitably suffered if they'd married.

    That's also reflected in how Nimrodel left Imrazor, after she'd borne their children - I imagine she'd realized that not only would her husband swiftly age and die, from her perspective, but so would her children and their children, and their children's children, while she remained ageless. So she fled, one night, and was never seen again.

    With it all being that glum and tragic, nobody should wonder why Elves and Men kept themselves to themselves. (This is why I tend to get grumpy when people are casual about RPing marriages between Men and Elves).
    Last edited by Radhruin_EU; Oct 26 2012 at 02:36 PM.

 

 
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