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  1. #1
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    Wargs since RoR underpowered?

    Can it be that wargs are very low after ror? i have tryed out several duells against creeps and freeps.

    against revers i am loosing now and they have still over 10k morale left.
    against spiders nearly same just bit less with 7k left.

    i have duelled today against some lvl 75 champs and some 85 already.
    it is nearly impossible to win them.... (as warg)

    reavers and spiders are pro now... i am a rank 11 warg and playing lotro since long time ago... i know how to handle a warg but that is bull&&&&... how can it be that a lvl 75 champ beats rank 11 warg with auda 9... where is there the fairness??

    and pls dont spam me with answers where you just say i am an newbie.
    Are wargs noob since RoR? is it like that? or are there any other opinions?
    every solution or suggestion welcome :-)

  2. #2
    First impressions are that wargs got nothing while reavers/spiders got lots. Thus, we are pretty low on the dps chain.

    Granted, those are first impressions and I'm trying to get time to get some dps parses.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420801000011a1c9/signature.png]Feelmybite[/charsig]

  3. #3
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    Wargs didn't need much tbh so no great surprise that we didn't get much. I am pleased that our trait slots have been opened up more though. I think that's where the real value of this update lies for the warg.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunnyboy View Post
    how can it be that a lvl 75 champ beats rank 11 warg with auda 9... where is there the fairness?
    Level doesn´t matter at all in PvP, the only change is better gear, which isn´t really the case. RoR gear is only a really slgiht upgrade to RoI endgame gear. The people who are already in the Moors are probably vets who know really well what they are doing

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    Level doesn´t matter at all in PvP, the only change is better gear, which isn´t really the case. RoR gear is only a really slgiht upgrade to RoI endgame gear. The people who are already in the Moors are probably vets who know really well what they are doing
    I may be wrong, but isn't there an penalty for fighting opponents above your own level that affects things like miss chance, etc?

  6. #6
    Only against NPCs, that was removed against MPs

  7. #7
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    Yes @ op. You are not alone, as I am a player who has been here since week 1 of the ettenmoors in SoA. Since this time I have been a dedicated, and highly skilled 1v1'er.

    I'd like to think I know the warg in and out.

    I'll tell you are problem as of now, our dps as per ratio to defenses available ah le more morale/morale restores is decent at best. Post u6 it was the highest creep dps, easily, hands down. Now, it honestly seems like the lowest (Ah le defenses, heals included). 5 years of 1v1'ing in this game, and not one update have I been honestly unable to defeat a reaver... well I guess we can all see the obviousness of the reaver changes, BUT, I also lost to a 75 hunter, a 75 rk, a 75 burg, a 75 lm, a 68 warden (that one was so funny you just wouldnt believe it), and last but not least I lost to our servers best champ with about 8k/11k morale left on him (after morale restores)...

    I may be on a R5 P2W warg, but I've logged more than a year of in game time on a warg. Literal.

    We are the bottom of the food chain, again, we did not gain any dps what so ever. Therefore, on ratio we lost dps. What this means is that our only chance to win is insanely skilled movement combined with great rotation timing (pressing/clicking skill buttons in that special timing that make them cast faster like eye rake). Even then we barely come close, and if you ARE playing like that you have to know that not every opponent is too, and yet they do better than you did in the fight (ok now im just QQ'ing)

    The fact of the matter is that the warg has been built up into WAY TOO MANY STYLES that have ALL been diluted in power.
    heres my list for warg styles and what diluted the potency of that build.

    1. Stunlock warggy - SoA cripple-pounce was 100% stun, back then spamming stuns was the best way to kill any freep, burglar included. killed by audacity, loss of 100%, and stun immunity (altho that 10s never really hurt, it just made it harder to throw locks up after initial pounce)

    2.bleed warggy - So after SoA when new skills came the biggest of them for wargs had been maul. Maul gave us 2 extra bleeds, we were ridiculously happy. so now wargs have 3 bleeds, the highest in the game at the time. We were happy. Killed by every other class in the entire game, no matter the class now having better bleeds (arguably lower bleeds for minstrel, and WL/Defiler)

    3. speed warggy - a short time after bleed warggy changes crippling bite (at this time still the prominent speed debuff game-wide) had a change made to it that set speed of the opponent to -25% speed instead of subtracting it, and i cant remember why but this was stupidly useful, and so kiting wargs were &&&&&& melee freeps hard. In addition to kiting wargs at this time had alot of speed against other classes, and then we got the racial for speed making this more viable for a VERY short time. killed by every class in the game getting better slows. Don't believe me? go compare all the slows, wargs is the worse. Period.

    4. Debuff wargy - so after a long horrid adventure of getting pounded with these 3 builds gaggled into each other not very potently we got alot of skills for effecting the enemies potency. These skills were decently strong, and so we used them, and they did us some good... back when the fight wasnt 20-30 seconds long... Killed by freep dps going to absurd level to where the time to debuff wasnt worth the time to dps in most cases.

    5. Shadow Howler warggy - o.m.g. We get a melee stance at R10???? holy god turbine you did something right. Shadow howler basically gave us 3k more morale every fight, and 15% more dps/15% less damage. It was a straight up 50% all around effectiveness boost. That combined with debuffs made wargs potent well into RoI with howler, not the best, but not the worse. Killed by simple stat changes, the 3k you gained from howler simply paled to freep dps, and the damage/mitigation just plain didnt help against freep crits anymore at a point.

    6 shadow/flayer - holy mother of god turbine does care o.o They did an update FOCUSED on warg? by god maybe they care... So. Shadow- basically a jump in dps to levels at 1/3rd of rk/hunter dps, 2/4ths if you know perfectly what to do to make the secret combos happen (those numbers are for to the back damage btw, not impossible to get 60-80% of the time... but... --->). Flayer we became hulking tanks of undamageable fun, even rk's EC wasnt hitting me above 3k when i went 5 tactical 1 morale. It was nice, we were strong, widdling down our opponent and taking very little punishment in return. I found no class I couldn't win against game wide in flayer outside of warden healing, and yes that includes mini's as strong as they were. Flayer debuffs are massively hefty. Shadow has been killed this new RoR update by the fact that warg is now both the slowest class, and dps based on getting positional. Our slow is now the worse in the game, and we have no small speed ups outside of sprint to stay behind our opponent, no battle speed, nothing. The 10% traits hardly make up for for the crappyness of our slows. No other class aside from burg needs to get behind their opponent to properly dps, and they have mez x up to 3, and plenty of 100% proc stuns we have a couple stuns, and in flayer quite potent stun capacity.. but when those stuns arent up? when we are in shadow? Both of these stances are being knocked to the ground by the fact that the warg is wholelly balanced on their damage to the back of an opponent, which in RoR, looks like is the only thing I wont be hitting. (20-50% up time on to the back dps at the most being 50 against a BA kiting me to a champion being 20% because of super speed differences)

    In summation, the warg is too diluted as a mix of many different builds, and we can't "choose" or "customize" into anything besides these two builds. Until warg gains some speed back where it can out-speed any given opponent, we might as well just accept our place at the bottom of the food chain (again) and sit in raids all day. Or hey, lets start MORE packs (noob wargs talkin to you) since we cant kill &&&& even worse (Directed at you devs)

    QQ over/

  8. #8
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    Wargs can due to their stealth usually choose which fights to engage and also press their big abort button to disappear if needed. Is it not only natural that they cannot beat every single other class 1 on 1 ANYMORE! Call me a hater but wargs were way too good, and they still are excellent for pvmp due to their stealth. Do not underestimate how powerfull wargs have been the last year(s).
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felathurin View Post
    Wargs can due to their stealth usually choose which fights to engage and also press their big abort button to disappear if needed. Is it not only natural that they cannot beat every single other class 1 on 1 ANYMORE! Call me a hater but wargs were way too good, and they still are excellent for pvmp due to their stealth. Do not underestimate how powerfull wargs have been the last year(s).
    Being able to look at an engagement and tell myself oh I couldnt win that not bothering is less pleasing then "If i jump that fight, IF I play as well as I can I DO have a chance"

    Wargs were not too good, you freeps simply confuse player skill with class capability, and then moan when all the wargs you try to kill escape instead of getting reamed by overpoweredness. What do you expect when they stand no chance?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felathurin View Post
    Wargs can due to their stealth usually choose which fights to engage and also press their big abort button to disappear if needed. Is it not only natural that they cannot beat every single other class 1 on 1 ANYMORE! Call me a hater but wargs were way too good, and they still are excellent for pvmp due to their stealth. Do not underestimate how powerfull wargs have been the last year(s).
    Fair point, if you dont forget how much damage we took after the uncapping of stats at ROI before audacity. Things got better for wargs, I wont deny it but we got reductions to dissappear and sprint which we have a semi concensus it was unnecessary (it might be given the lack of DPS boost).

    You arent a hater, your point about stealth is valid it makes up for a lot. However dps has been a long standing issue in the moors and its simply freeps out put more and morale didnt (it might now) cover the imbalance. Audacity mitigated it to a degree but a freep outputting 1.5k on their hits and you doing 374 (on a crit) dosent take long to figure out who is going to win.

    I dont expect to solo every class, a heavy should be able to take a warg, so shouldnt burgs if they CC correctly. I should be 75/25 (give or take) on light classes and a hunter should own me at range. However all of them, even the hunter now has a self heal on the go, on top of their high end DPS. The impact on freeps is going to be dramatic because you're going to see many, many more packs out and the QQ will be over the top.

    DPS is the problem, it has been for a while, even the Dev admits it in his diary:

    Creep Damage & Corruption Revisions

    One thing that’s become very apparent to us in our survey of the ‘moors is the disparity in damage and healing between Creeps and Freeps. Pound for pound, Creeps tend to get outgunned and outhealed compared to the kind of numbers Freeps can put out. We will be taking steps to bridge this gap this season. These steps might go too far, or not far enough. We will be monitoring and the pendulum will continue to swing as necessary.
    So he admits their is a disparity (which we all knew anyway) and then proceeds to tell us that BA's and Warg's are in a good place.

    We think that the Blackarrow and Warg Stalker are in a good place damage-wise, so the majority of our attention went to the Defiler, Weaver, Reaver, and Warleader. These classes have received a significant damage boost to their skills and damaging effects, making them more viable from a damage-dealing standpoint. We’ve also made more damage available via corruptions by increasing the potency of the Mastery corruptions
    .

    So which is it? Was the disparity not inclusive of BA's and Wargs? Of course they are, issue is freep %chance to do critical hits creates a disparity between the two sides. Its been this way for a while and wargs are part of that disparity.
    Last edited by Thorgrum; Oct 17 2012 at 11:40 AM.


  11. #11
    Wargs won't like this but if wargs are currently underpowered then good, because they needed to be for a time. Purely my opinion of course, but I will divulge my line of thought:

    1.) Wargs, the creepside stealth class, was by far the most populous creep type for the last several months. Warg population on some servers reached as high as 40% of the total creep population. If 40% of freep side were Burglars, there would be a TON of unhappy creeps not enjoying being griefed from stealth. Id also have T5 burg slayer .

    2. Wargs were the most powerful creep class for the last several months. So not only was the stealth class numerous, it was also the most formidable. It was basically a Burgmini in terms of how it fared against the opposition. It was a truly powerful class, capable of fighting on freep levels.

    Wargs being the best led to their over-population. Now I think everyone agrees that a ton of stealth players is no fun for visibles, and even worse for the quality of PvP. Turbine was well aware of this fact, but they can't come out and tell players not to play their wargs, or restrict new players from playing one. So how do you balance population without directly giving the middle finger to players? You give the over-populated class a minimal update, while buffing targeted classes.

    The some players will stick with it anyway and work through the changes and disparity. Others, will roll different classes or pick up a neglected toon that has been buffed looking for the path of least resistance. And, in theory, the class disparity will even itself out so then Kelsan can bring it up to date with the other classes.
    Creeps: Fissure R-12
    Freeps: Presdas R-9, Arcteus R9, Dainsleif-1 R4

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by apb8808 View Post
    Wargs being the best led to their over-population. Now I think everyone agrees that a ton of stealth players is no fun for visibles, and even worse for the quality of PvP. Turbine was well aware of this fact, but they can't come out and tell players not to play their wargs, or restrict new players from playing one. So how do you balance population without directly giving the middle finger to players? You give the over-populated class a minimal update, while buffing targeted classes.
    Completely agree with this. Overpopulation of stealth classes can really hurt PvP in ways that are not expected. For example, once freeps realized that warg packs were rampant and soloing wasn't really viable, freeps started grouping up (some might say zerging) and bringing along pocket healers. In turn, this made it impossible for the weaker creep classes to solo because my reaver has no chance to get a kill against even a hunter and a cappy, etc. I think this will help balance out the population toward reavers and spiders who both seem quite strong now. On my server, reavers were 34% of the population yesterday while they averaged 20% before the update while wargs have dropped by more than 10%. I guess a lot of people like to play whatever they think is the easiest.

    The only remaining question I have is about this claim that an 85 warg is getting soloed by a level 75 freep. If so, that's a problem. If it's just a fail warg used to easy-mode, that's another issue.
    Freeps @ Dwarrowdelf: r10 Mini
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by apb8808 View Post
    Now I think everyone agrees that a ton of stealth players is no fun for visibles, and even worse for the quality of PvP. Turbine was well aware of this fact, but they can't come out and tell players not to play their wargs, or restrict new players from playing one. So how do you balance population without directly giving the middle finger to players? You give the over-populated class a minimal update, while buffing targeted classes.
    I read your whole post, this is the only part I disagree with. The first sentence is fine, I'll concede it but turbine was also well aware of the DPS disparity as evidenced by the dev diary I qouted. So instead of fixing the problem they conceded to, they decrease warg escape cooldowns on disappear and sprint and give us Piercing claws. You balance the population balance by increasing the cooldown for dissapear and increasing the cool downs on the stance swap so wargs cant stun from shadow and quickly flip to flayer. Make the wargs fight, and give them the DPS to do it.

    Instead they decreased the cooldown on disappear and sprint which, from what I can tell most dont think was necessary and leave dps pretty much static with a generous bump to morale. The other classes needed the update more then wargs no dispute there but the DPS disparity will continue, its just been shifted to the prior flavor of the month.

    Next update, will it be weavers who get a minimal buff? Turbine wont fix the problem (they admit in their diary) on freepside so naturally one would assume it would be fixed/increased on the other. Not to the exclusion of a few but to the inclusion of all. The DPS problem thus perpetuates, freeps will still be over powered in compare IMHO.
    Last edited by Thorgrum; Oct 17 2012 at 02:09 PM.


  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by asearchforreason View Post
    The only remaining question I have is about this claim that an 85 warg is getting soloed by a level 75 freep. If so, that's a problem. If it's just a fail warg used to easy-mode, that's another issue.
    I am one who has been beaten by a 75 since RoR.

    How? The freep is still hitting me for 2-4k a skill, and Im barely keeping up with their kiting with a better slow then mine, meaning nearly no hits to the back aside from pounce. I simply got CC'd twice and nuked down by the rk, feared/mezzed/stunned (guess their new skill?) and nuked by the hunter, and the lm did alot worse against me, very close, but he nuked the hell out of me with a blazing 10.1k lightning.

    Its just all those big hits, wargs cant compare. At all. And yet we're supposed to overcome it somehow? With what? our 50-100% more morale then them? We arent doing 50% of their dps so it doesnt add up. Our amazing 3 full heals? Oh wait sorry that's them not us. Give us something that keeps our morale from going from full --> 0 besides a morale pot, because currently we have literally nothing, whilst every other class game wide does.

    Note: I don't, and never will, use flayer 1v1.
    Second Note: Been an avid skilled warg 1v1'er since SoA
    Last edited by ArcticWolf.; Oct 17 2012 at 02:48 PM.

  15. #15
    I'm a warg and I am happy with the changes. Those who wish to easy mode are welcome to roll a reaver, a minstrel or a warden. Thank you.
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  16. #16
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    True wargs will do just fine, FotM wargs will have trouble.

    That is all.
    What is it? What do you smell?

  17. #17
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    Seriously...dont delude yourself about BAs too
    Ba got not a single boost in terms of dps.
    Small example. skill that was 700 in 75...well in 85 it was 770 with the exact same build
    The best thing was the keen eye stance and traited headshot which still for me the duration is a joke

    [Tangaar Captain R 7][Barukhazad Minstrel R 9]

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    I read your whole post, this is the only part I disagree with. The first sentence is fine, I'll concede it but turbine was also well aware of the DPS disparity as evidenced by the dev diary I qouted. So instead of fixing the problem they conceded to, they decrease warg escape cooldowns on disappear and sprint and give us Piercing claws. You balance the population balance by increasing the cooldown for dissapear and increasing the cool downs on the stance swap so wargs cant stun from shadow and quickly flip to flayer. Make the wargs fight, and give them the DPS to do it.

    Instead they decreased the cooldown on disappear and sprint which, from what I can tell most dont think was necessary and leave dps pretty much static with a generous bump to morale. The other classes needed the update more then wargs no dispute there but the DPS disparity will continue, its just been shifted to the prior flavor of the month.

    Next update, will it be weavers who get a minimal buff? Turbine wont fix the problem (they admit in their diary) on freepside so naturally one would assume it would be fixed/increased on the other. Not to the exclusion of a few but to the inclusion of all. The DPS problem thus perpetuates, freeps will still be over powered in compare IMHO.
    Excellent points but I look at the cool down reduction as a necessity. If your going to hold Wargs at the status quo, and bring other classes ahead of them, then something must be modified to maintain a level of competence. The reason for a shorter CD is that wargs are going to need them more often. At least that's how I see it anyway, how else could you explain something that few wanted or thought was fair?

    The freepside arguement yeah... I can't disagree. Its ingrained into this game that freeps will have the upper hand. If the policy going forward is to have a FOTM creep class changing with each update... well it doesn't bother me too much its better than nothing.
    Creeps: Fissure R-12
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by apb8808 View Post
    Excellent points but I look at the cool down reduction as a necessity. If your going to hold Wargs at the status quo, and bring other classes ahead of them, then something must be modified to maintain a level of competence. The reason for a shorter CD is that wargs are going to need them more often. At least that's how I see it anyway, how else could you explain something that few wanted or thought was fair?
    Oh I agree it just runs counter intuitive to the problem the dev admits to and some players have complained about, DPS disparity. Additionally it will serve to annoy freeps more, same with 2 legs on creepside as you said having a lot of stealth classes around negatively impacts play, now that stealth class can get their faster.

    To me its clear and definitive proof that moors devs have very little clue about how the game actually is played out there. You raise DPS for wargs and penalize them another way (stance cooldown is my concession), otherwise your going to have a lot of dead wargs, a lot more packs or a lot of them using dissapear and escaping.


    The freepside arguement yeah... I can't disagree. Its ingrained into this game that freeps will have the upper hand. If the policy going forward is to have a FOTM creep class changing with each update... well it doesn't bother me too much its better than nothing.
    I get that freeps need to be adjusted for PVE first the moors second, thats why in my mind you buff creeps and leave freeps as is. I mean look at the update we have, a lot of creeps got updated but its literally 1.5 years late. Thats the part that is annoying, its only now that we are starting to get closer to balance after a long, long stretch of foolishness.

    Ive been on the other end of a Adino raid (a while ago), ive literally been blown up in 2 seconds. Even up until RoR (maybe afterward?) ive watched wardens and mini's drag around 3-7 creeps outputting DPS and self healing as they skip away to NPC's. Not increasing warg DPS perpetuates a long standing issue in the moors which the dev admits in his diary.

    We dont need more baby steps, everyone knows what the problem is. Fixing 4 out of 6 classes is just poor quality, IMHO.


  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    To me its clear and definitive proof that moors devs have very little clue about how the game actually is played out there.
    Yep, you are exactly right there. Wargs didn't scale enough with damage and mitigations. I didn't get any more damage. My BA didn't get more damage, even my Defiler didn't get anymore damage. But the Defiler heals got buffed so that was a good thing. Still, I don't get how it would be just overlooked or just not done. With a scaling in LVL the damage of all classes should scale up, not just the damage of some.

  21. #21

    Thumbs up

    The answer to all Warg "problems" is simple - WARG PACKS!!! Invisible death on a slice of toast!!!

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Krutoy View Post
    The answer to all Warg "problems" is simple - WARG PACKS!!! Invisible death on a slice of toast!!!
    So.... wargs have to suck it up and group up when freeps just qq and get buffed?

    Sorry for implementing logic and clear thinking here.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420801000011a1c9/signature.png]Feelmybite[/charsig]

  23. #23
    I have to say that I was quite disappointed when I logged into monster play the first time in a while. I barely do damage anymore. A pack is almost necessary to get anything done, and even then it is still pretty bad. I got into a warg pack and all 7-8 of us beat on a single warden for about 5-10 minutes before he finally died(not exaggerating.) Four of the wargs in the group were above level 8 and 2 above level 10.

    I stuck solely to playing a warg for years through the ups and downs. I regret not ranking up an alt now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shayur View Post
    Yep, you are exactly right there. Wargs didn't scale enough with damage and mitigations. I didn't get any more damage. My BA didn't get more damage, even my Defiler didn't get anymore damage. But the Defiler heals got buffed so that was a good thing. Still, I don't get how it would be just overlooked or just not done. With a scaling in LVL the damage of all classes should scale up, not just the damage of some.
    I agree. Some people are making this about warg needing a nerf, but that is beside the point. They should nerf the unbalanced things about the class, but having it to not scale is not a good way to impliment a nerf given that it nerfs everything as opposed to nerfing what needs nerfing.
    Last edited by TimidObserver; Jan 01 2013 at 06:54 PM.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimidObserver View Post
    I have to say that I was quite disappointed when I logged into monster play the first time in a while. I barely do damage anymore. A pack is almost necessary to get anything done, and even then it is still pretty bad. I got into a warg pack and all 7-8 of us beat on a single warden for about 5-10 minutes before he finally died(not exaggerating.) Four of the wargs in the group were above level 8 and 2 above level 10.

    I stuck solely to playing a warg for years through the ups and downs. I regret not ranking up an alt now.



    I agree. Some people are making this about warg needing a nerf, but that is beside the point. They should nerf the unbalanced things about the class, but having it to not scale is not a good way to impliment a nerf given that it nerfs everything as opposed to nerfing what needs nerfing.
    Wargs got nerfed in the last update. Ive played a warg now for a while, before it was FOTM, while it was and now after. One of the underlying themes of RoR is the necessity to group in the moors, wargs are no exception and freeps should be careful what they wish for. They should want wargs to run more solo they will be easier to kill as wargs are still squishy. Even if you go full mitigations and morale you give up so much damage you'll be out lasted.

    You should expect more warg nerfs in the future, its an easy target (like burgs were) and freeps are QQing a lot these days. So warg packs it is.


  25. #25
    Ill put my 2cents in just for good measure,

    Wargs are not in a horrible position atm, but winning is not guaranteed, and even greenie freeps sometimes can present a challenge unlike our closest counterpart on freepside the burglar, who can easily destroy greenie creeps. I'm glad to see so many of the FOTM players leave the class, and to me it feels more like the warg of pre-ud6, decently strong, not op, but not weak if played to its full potential. Now on to other issues I see with PvMP in general.

    Its is sooo much easier to roll a different class as a creep than a freep. I hear people even in this thread talk about how people will gravitate towards the FOTM classes, this is soo true but not necessarily as easily percieved on freepside as on Creep. How many Freeps have you known that over the course of ROI and now ROR have slowly leveled a Minstrel, or are in the Process of leveling a LM now that if played properly is a pita to kill with its water lore heals (who the heck gives a non healing class a spammable heal of that magnitude anyway). So what really needs to happen is Lotro develop some type of scaling technology so that say past level 20 (one weekend can get you there while still taking the scenic route) you unlock both PvMP and skirmishes, and some type of scaling tech so that the ettenmoors set will scale with your level and you can start PvMPing earlier. If that were to happen we would see more quickly the responses to devs changes freepside, and the finger wouldnt always be pointed to creepside and how xxxx class is OP and now everyone is playing it. In Closing I lol at those who point finger to warg (or any creep class atm) as fotm or ez-mode and are playing a minstrel in addition to their creeps which with audacity makes them a pain in the butt to kill even with 3+ ranked creeps attacking them. Guess its easy to finger point as long as someone doesn't put a mirror in front of you.
    Last edited by Vezz; Jan 01 2013 at 08:08 PM.
    Razzgash R12 Warg -- Razzgrish R12 Blackarrow -- Razztankz R12 Warleader
    Razztoxin R11 Weaver -- Razzhealzu R10 Defiler -- Razzbladez R9 Reaver


 

 
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