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  1. #3451
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    615
    @Pat The let's both be quiet and making this thread longer with our bickering? It must be painful for players reading this who are looking for genuine PvP talk. I will retract all I said if you just don't do that bug or tell those who do it to stop again because it affects other creeps rather than just me.

    For the record: I haven't Pmed you for months, only last night.

  2. #3452
    Quote Originally Posted by Enzaraen View Post
    Naius is saying that we can play how we want in Ettens. You agree with him which means you don't mind me ganking spars since it is how I want to play.
    Actually my post says it differently - Can you gank spars? Yes. Will people mind? Hell yes. Cant put it more simply sorry.
    Naius - Burglar of Withywindle
    [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-uYwngjXZI[/url]

  3. #3453
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    185
    Quote Originally Posted by Enzaraen View Post
    DoH is a kin with top pvpers including purple ranks
    Purple ranks = skillz #clickersFTW #NoInterfaceNeltChallenge #360NoScopezzxx . No argument there.

    There were only 2 ppl with actually something that we can actualy consider them skilled from DoH: Grass and Morva.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enzaraen View Post
    do they really need to tarnish their rep on WW for a bit of renown?
    Humm, yeah. It happened all the time maybe? Ahh the good Leisho days...

    Quote Originally Posted by Enzaraen View Post
    I saw DoH members sparring after that at GTA yet no one ganks them? Double standards eh?
    DoH members sparing at GTA ?!?!?!? Y didnt I ever seen this?? I would have surely recorded some back in that time...(exept for Grass and Morva once again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Enzaraen View Post
    Furthermore, solo ganking is a lot harder and is risking your life too then a 12 man raid with 4 healers single targetting creeps.
    Ok, lets see how hard it can be:

    From stealth(warg)- Sudden pounce- Maul cut with Eye Gouge - Bestial Claws - *Dead* - Dissapear.

    Jeez, sparing a warden without Impale seems damn easy compared to that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Enzaraen View Post
    For you being an a$$: How am I being an ###? I am playing PvP how it should be played.
    PvP doesnt have rules, that is right. However, comunities do have some stuff a bit similar. Its called respect. Its both given and recived, and when people are gathered in a place to do 1v1s against each other, the ones who wish to be respected dont go for the easy points, right when some of them its at his most vunerable.

    Ofc, not everybody has to follow this, but if so, why should any1 care if the ones who dont respect any1 are either zerged/ganked/One-shooted by his own faction NPC?
    Narthor - r11 Warden | Glawoneth - r9 RK | Trengo - r8 Burglar | Torvareth - r8 Champion | Morgand - r6 Hunter | Garina - r5 Minstrel
    Radguz - r12 Reaver | Narthorao - r8 WL | Narrowz - r8 BA | Woodyy - r8 Stalker(EN)
    YouTube Channel | Original Challenger of Gothmog - Laurelin | TheBandits Raid Alliance

  4. #3454
    Join Date
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    London
    Posts
    615
    Quote Originally Posted by Narthor View Post
    Purple ranks = skillz #clickersFTW #NoInterfaceNeltChallenge #360NoScopezzxx . No argument there.


    From stealth(warg)- Sudden pounce- Maul cut with Eye Gouge - Bestial Claws - *Dead* - Dissapear.

    Ofc, not everybody has to follow this, but if so, why should any1 care if the ones who dont respect any1 are either zerged/ganked/One-shooted by his own faction NPC?
    I'm a r4 warg with no traits ^.

    It's not just me affected by the one-shot bugs, my screenie shows many more who were unfairly killed

  5. #3455
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    185
    Quote Originally Posted by Enzaraen View Post
    I'm a r4 warg with no traits ^.
    You're right, to gank a freep with 1k morale left, you'll probably need more than just Sudden Pounce/Bestial Claws then. Most ppl dont, but every1 knows about themselves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Enzaraen View Post
    It's not just me affected by the one-shot bugs, my screenie shows many more who were unfairly killed
    I cant see them complaining anywhere, and you're the one QQing about it here.

    Plus, I'll add also this in here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Enzaraen View Post
    Clubbing wasn't a punishable offence when I did it. Nor has it or ever will it be an exploit.
    So exploiters should be worse than clubbers? Interesting theory there...

    The Exploit --> 4 creeps killed x 2 = maybe not even 500 renown there.

    Clubbing --> XXXXXXXX renown. From r0 to r15, it is doable.
    Narthor - r11 Warden | Glawoneth - r9 RK | Trengo - r8 Burglar | Torvareth - r8 Champion | Morgand - r6 Hunter | Garina - r5 Minstrel
    Radguz - r12 Reaver | Narthorao - r8 WL | Narrowz - r8 BA | Woodyy - r8 Stalker(EN)
    YouTube Channel | Original Challenger of Gothmog - Laurelin | TheBandits Raid Alliance

  6. #3456
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    615
    No Narth you're looking at this from one view.
    Last edited by Enzaraen; Aug 31 2014 at 07:22 PM.

  7. #3457
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    185
    Let me tell you my view then. I didnt actually posted anything be4 on that exploit thread because I really didnt cared about it. Maybe if it was of some1 clubbing, multiboxing, anything, maybe there I would give a damn.

    But no, it was simply something about you getting one-shooted due to a already "fixed" bug, when you werent leaving a place despite you had more numbers than the oponements.

    Untill here, I couldnt care less. I'd even sort of cheer for the "exploiters" if there were actually 4 freeps outside and 7-8 creeps hugging in this update. But I wasnt there, neither will be for a while now, so I didnt or do benefit from anything that may have happened.

    The thing is when you come to other thread and almost brag about ganking some spars. But be4, you were searching for this community that is present in this foruns to help you or something? To expose ppl that have been unfair to you once when you are just as that by ganking someone's spars? Or you need a hug or something?

    And then I come in, getting tired of some1 s***, and out of boredom and procrastination, I decide to bring up all the irony of all of this. I mean, a ganker asking for help + a clubber reporting exploiters? Pure gold right here.

    I belive that the "exploiters" didnt do it in order just to get the 500 renown out of that, but it was a nice and original way to give a little push to huggers with more numbers to the outside.

    And I never seen ppl being thrown and excluded from a server's action for a one-shooter forced bug. Clubbers however...
    Narthor - r11 Warden | Glawoneth - r9 RK | Trengo - r8 Burglar | Torvareth - r8 Champion | Morgand - r6 Hunter | Garina - r5 Minstrel
    Radguz - r12 Reaver | Narthorao - r8 WL | Narrowz - r8 BA | Woodyy - r8 Stalker(EN)
    YouTube Channel | Original Challenger of Gothmog - Laurelin | TheBandits Raid Alliance

  8. #3458
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    615
    Quote Originally Posted by Narthor View Post
    4 freeps outside and 7-8 creeps hugging in this update. But I wasnt a clubber reporting exploiters? Pure gold right here.

    I belive that the "exploiters" didnt do it in order just to get the 500 renown out of that, but it was a nice and original way to give a little push to huggers with more numbers to the outside.

    And I never seen ppl being thrown and excluded from a server's action for a one-shooter forced bug. Clubbers however...
    Where do you get this infomation from? There were 6+ freeps, 3 captains, 1 healing rk. We were at most r8. 2 wargs, 3 BAs and a r5 Wl. Freeps were lowest r4, around 5 were green ranks. Don't state anything before you saw the group. With this group, you think we would bother pushing out of Grams to get slaughtered? I never broke any rules, therefore what is the problem with me reporting those who are breaking the rules. I'm sure you don't seem to understand who the real rule-breakers are here.

  9. #3459
    Quote Originally Posted by Akrorgash View Post
    Yes I remember that thing with Red. I would have happily killed him if they were attacking/camping at the time but they were just stood there. It was one of those weird peaceful times that happen sometimes and I really didn't see the point in trying to kill a Guard (on wl) of all classes - if I recall correctly nobody was attacking you to start with, but when you wouldn't stop attacking Red they went for you. It wasn't just me, other KR members stood by, others who don't usually share my views. Even if it was a freep who I didn't know I'd have done the same. Although I regretted it straight after it happened because you both left. I can understand why it made you leave - you are someone driven by loyalty above anything else. But it could have been Throgath, Ash, Morth....I'd have done the same as I did - but then, i think they'd have stopped attacking after seeing they weren't getting backup. You attacked because you were angry, and I try my best to stay as calm and rational as I can in this game, and rl.

    -> That's part of the problem, I don't 'get' people who get so emotional about things, and likewise they don't tend to 'get' me

    Kami had been thinking of leaving for a while and had left the week before but Morth had talked him back in, if i recall correctly?

    Can't comment on Tuga, other than I imagine Kami had his reasons, reasons other than Pat being his buddy (I hope anyway).

    We didn't see not attacking as disloyalty - I saw it as the sensible thing to do. It was 'peacetime', I wasn't angry at the freeps, Red wasn't going to die when he had healers right behind him. I don't remember whether I was on Akro or on defi that time, but if defi, I should have kept you healed - I remember just feeling a bit confused and wondering why you were doing that and assumed you'd stop, next thing is you're dead and you've quit.

    My main issue with you comes from that time I was leading, I think one of the first times I ever led properly, and you were giving different orders - I said map somewhere, and you said no, map somewhere else. And ofc people listening to you because you were the usual leader. That really got to me :P But I'd forgiven you aside from your occasional outbursts on here and that GV spar thing 'KICK EM OUT OF TS' - I didn't know whether to laugh or get angry/upset.

    I never spied for Imi - I would send you our skype transcripts if you are bored enough to read them There was one time I overstepped 'the line' and I was out of the craid, and the craid was large, and Imi's fraid was a lot weaker in comparision - I think there was a Lei fraid up you were fighting. I warned him you were inc EC and he got out of the way. That's the only time I ever told him sensitive info. I never said where we were apart from that, I always asked 'do you want me to tell Imi to meet us somewhere' before I told him anything sensitive. I told him numbers and he in return told me how many were in his fraid and how many were in the Lei one, the rest of our chat was about how the fight was going and ofc, telling each other we'd disbanded. He never asked for anything from me, he wanted to play the game properly - liked playing hardmode and thats the whole reason I started talking to him, because I respect anyone who wants to push themselves.

    I think it was exams keeping people away, surprising how many freeps are that age.

    We've all been zerged. But I think keeping it to a minimum is what is best for the server. Sure I take private revenge sometimes - kill an almost dead freep that has annoyed me for some reason when usually in interests of fairness, I'd let him regain health then fight - but after doing something like that I feel horrible
    You clearly have a bad memory.
    A one hour grams farm had just finished, freeps had mounted and rode off, Lutz was relogging , KR group was 6 ( akro, thro.kees,lutz, gzum and kamiwarg), we were waiting for his return to try and push out , RED was flaunting his invulnerability by posing in front of us after his buddies had left (as usual). I attacked , you watched ,melrean rode back, I died.
    Peace time , is that what you think? . the lull after the massacre.
    My objection to spars had always been they where artificial , creeps where underpowered in the main and relied on freep goodwill . I was not alone in thinking groups of friends sparing for hours where just clubbing points by less obvious means.
    With the introduction of some kind of balance my objections mostly disappeared and I was stood watching spars at GV the night you mention. A warg I didn't know was sparring a Champ who was being healed , the warg was going to win anyway when the champ ran , the warg then waited in stealth and attacked the champ when he came away from the one shoters , he was attacked by about 6 freeps . I bubble and healed him , they ganked me. You and many others where on TS with me , unless you are deaf ,you heard this unfold, I asked for retribution , I got semi silence .
    All my efforts organising during the bad times, pushing out from grams , fighting along side Kami when we had little chance , trying to save Lutz on one of his suicidal charges , trying to integrate the low ranks into raids , for what , semi silence .
    You where telling imi our numbers and make up , I asked you for theirs, got nothing, you where spying.
    Well they have got you leading now akro , they probably deserve you.

  10. #3460
    Didn't want to post this here, but since I got so many requests I had to.

    So this is how me and Santa ride around moors, not sure if too much info or not, you can decide.


  11. #3461
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    64
    Last month i have been playing creepside, well i have always played creepside, i have always played freepside, the ones who know me know when and why i do it.
    I am not a Raid player or at least i try to, i lag alot, i already raided too mutch and i praise my sanity and my solo play. Saying this lemme go back to the main issue and share my last month experience with you ppl:

    Even not being Raid focus i noticed creeps were having numbers issues so, being part of this comunity i decided to try and help in what i can. The result?! well it started ok i guess but ended very badly, not couse of the raid experience but becouse of the silly silly HATE this comunity generates. I have been called spy, clubber etc... why? becouse my personal view of pvmp is diferent from most? becouse i like to spar sometimes? becouse ppl know im friends with freeps they dont like or suport? becouse i dont like to zerg or gank spars?
    All this cra$ aside, the truth is that i did na honest try to help this creep comunity being a +1 creep to fight with, but most i got from some players in creepside was motivation not to. How many players have already try to help creepside and gave up couse honestly they dont log in to see a hatefull speech in ooc everytime!? how many help have creepside lost without even noticing?
    I know the ppl who transfer here created a situation of fear that somehow they can destroy and do the same they did to the server they belong but if creeps had a strong comunity they would just be a reason to laugh nothing more.Problem is u cannot have a strong community based on hate speech and pushing away the ppl who are indeed trying to help you.
    So... i hope some ppl stop shouting hate like they are in the Holy Crusades and there are the saviours couse there is no "I" here, just a big "WE" that you ppl are making sure it gets smaller.
    I have seen this server being reduced to a bunch of soloers and small groups (remember RoR start?) and look what happen after it its basic ppl, respect each other

    Sorry for the long text
    Cheers

    Nill/Careldol/Dhurzuk


    PS1: Lutz, gz on Croatia Team u suck in Lotro but at least you have them :P
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2b225000000053c75/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  12. #3462
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillindhel View Post
    (...)Even not being Raid focus i noticed creeps were having numbers issues
    2/3 of current creep leaders are shieldwalling minstrels theese days so yes, we have a 'numbers' issues.
    Gilrain: Keeslanaff - r12 RVR
    Withy: Keeslaff - r13 HNT, Cometodaddy - r9 BA, Warglaff -r7 STK

  13. #3463
    Quote Originally Posted by giboosc View Post
    2/3 of current creep leaders are shieldwalling minstrels theese days so yes, we have a 'numbers' issues.
    We need names.
    REAVER [color=purple]Kakauete[/color] ::: [color=purple]R13[/color] BLACKARROW [color=purple]Kakadush[/color] ::: [color=purple]R13[/color] WARG [color=green]Kamikazze[/color] ::: [color=green]R11[/color] DEFILER [color=green]Kamolas[/color] ::: [color=green]R10[/color] WEAVER [color=greensoft]Kammi[/color] ::: [color=greensoft]R9[/color] WARLEADER [color=blue]Kabanga[/color] ::: [color=blue]R8[/color]

    GUARDIAN [color=green]SANTAREM[/color] ::: [color=green]R11[/color]

  14. #3464
    Quote Originally Posted by SANTAREM View Post
    We need names.
    I cant put your name in forums bcuz its against CoC
    Gilrain: Keeslanaff - r12 RVR
    Withy: Keeslaff - r13 HNT, Cometodaddy - r9 BA, Warglaff -r7 STK

  15. #3465
    Quote Originally Posted by giboosc View Post
    I cant put your name in forums bcuz its against CoC
    This is new then, cause i dont waste my time giving shieldwall.
    REAVER [color=purple]Kakauete[/color] ::: [color=purple]R13[/color] BLACKARROW [color=purple]Kakadush[/color] ::: [color=purple]R13[/color] WARG [color=green]Kamikazze[/color] ::: [color=green]R11[/color] DEFILER [color=green]Kamolas[/color] ::: [color=green]R10[/color] WEAVER [color=greensoft]Kammi[/color] ::: [color=greensoft]R9[/color] WARLEADER [color=blue]Kabanga[/color] ::: [color=blue]R8[/color]

    GUARDIAN [color=green]SANTAREM[/color] ::: [color=green]R11[/color]

  16. #3466
    Quote Originally Posted by SANTAREM View Post
    This is new then, cause i dont waste my time giving shieldwall.
    Ok, im sorry then.

    1/3 of current creep leaders are shieldwalling minstrels and 1/3 is not shieldwalling minstrels theese days so yes, we have a 'numbers' issues.

    Better?
    Gilrain: Keeslanaff - r12 RVR
    Withy: Keeslaff - r13 HNT, Cometodaddy - r9 BA, Warglaff -r7 STK

  17. #3467
    Quote Originally Posted by giboosc View Post
    Ok, im sorry then.

    1/3 of current creep leaders are shieldwalling minstrels and 1/3 is not shieldwalling minstrels theese days so yes, we have a 'numbers' issues.

    Better?
    You haven't seen me shieldwalling ppl, i think since i started play my freep again i did it 1 time in 1 raid.

    Dunno about the others, and dunno about the 3rd guardian.
    REAVER [color=purple]Kakauete[/color] ::: [color=purple]R13[/color] BLACKARROW [color=purple]Kakadush[/color] ::: [color=purple]R13[/color] WARG [color=green]Kamikazze[/color] ::: [color=green]R11[/color] DEFILER [color=green]Kamolas[/color] ::: [color=green]R10[/color] WEAVER [color=greensoft]Kammi[/color] ::: [color=greensoft]R9[/color] WARLEADER [color=blue]Kabanga[/color] ::: [color=blue]R8[/color]

    GUARDIAN [color=green]SANTAREM[/color] ::: [color=green]R11[/color]

  18. #3468
    Quote Originally Posted by SANTAREM View Post
    You haven't seen me shieldwalling ppl, i think since i started play my freep again i did it 1 time in 1 raid.

    Dunno about the others, and dunno about the 3rd guardian.

    "Shieldwall" was the keyword, and it did the job Dunno about 3rd guard either.
    Gilrain: Keeslanaff - r12 RVR
    Withy: Keeslaff - r13 HNT, Cometodaddy - r9 BA, Warglaff -r7 STK

  19. #3469
    Quote Originally Posted by elfbane1 View Post
    You clearly have a bad memory.
    A one hour grams farm had just finished, freeps had mounted and rode off, Lutz was relogging , KR group was 6 ( akro, thro.kees,lutz, gzum and kamiwarg), we were waiting for his return to try and push out , RED was flaunting his invulnerability by posing in front of us after his buddies had left (as usual). I attacked , you watched ,melrean rode back, I died.
    Peace time , is that what you think? . the lull after the massacre.
    My objection to spars had always been they where artificial , creeps where underpowered in the main and relied on freep goodwill . I was not alone in thinking groups of friends sparing for hours where just clubbing points by less obvious means.
    With the introduction of some kind of balance my objections mostly disappeared and I was stood watching spars at GV the night you mention. A warg I didn't know was sparring a Champ who was being healed , the warg was going to win anyway when the champ ran , the warg then waited in stealth and attacked the champ when he came away from the one shoters , he was attacked by about 6 freeps . I bubble and healed him , they ganked me. You and many others where on TS with me , unless you are deaf ,you heard this unfold, I asked for retribution , I got semi silence .
    All my efforts organising during the bad times, pushing out from grams , fighting along side Kami when we had little chance , trying to save Lutz on one of his suicidal charges , trying to integrate the low ranks into raids , for what , semi silence .
    You where telling imi our numbers and make up , I asked you for theirs, got nothing, you where spying.
    Well they have got you leading now akro , they probably deserve you.
    I have an awful memory, yes.


    I didn't hear any of that on ts. If you are sure you actually were talking as it happened, then the only explanation I can give is that I was concentrating on my spar and was blocking it out. I remember mid-spar being aware something was happening and you were forming a craid, I asked in tribe what was going on and no-one seemed sure. You sounded very angry and knowing you, I didn't partivularly want to get involved when you are angry. I didn't know you'd been ganked, I had no idea why you were angry, but I still didn't like that you wanted to make a revenge craid, so I stayed out of it, when you starting getting more insistent in channel, I asked for inv because I made the decision that I'd rather aid you and stay on good terms with you than fall out. You didn't invite, probably sensed my reluctance.

    Why do your efforts mean when you are some crazy revenge mission we should help? Seek revenge against the one who ganked you, sure, but I don't like the kill all mentality/zerg all mentality. You know that. The incident with the champ could have been that freeps didn't know he was getting healed...I doubt they'd attack you if they knew that.

    I always told you when you asked, and when you asked and I didn't know, I asked Imi. I can remember many times I did this. I was not spying, and I really wish you'd stop being like this. I really thought the next message I'd read from you would be a nice one, or at least a 'oh ok, fair enough' one. I can't prove I wasn't spying, but you know how much I like fairplay - you seriously think I'd 'spy'?????

    Thank you for that little snipe there at the end as well.
    Akrorgash - r11 reaver // Morakh - r8 wl // Tyrakh r6 ba // Silthus r8 Defi // Rawrik r6 neglected warg // ----- Withywindle

  20. #3470
    Quote Originally Posted by giboosc View Post
    "Shieldwall" was the keyword, and it did the job Dunno about 3rd guard either.
    Don't know about the 3rd guard either, but SW is most tarded skill ever and should never be used.

    But if creeps are really having problems with shield-walls, guess they need to learn to use their skills.

  21. #3471
    Quote Originally Posted by TuroKovanen View Post
    But if creeps are really having problems with shield-walls
    #StunsFTW #CouldNotResist
    [center][IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/ohqwlt.png[/IMG][/center]
    [center][color=red][size=3]all chars kinda retired, not playin anymore[/size][/color][/center]
    [center]out of date but too bored to change it[/center]

  22. #3472
    Quote Originally Posted by roi1807 View Post
    #StunsFTW #CouldNotResist
    Gilrain: Keeslanaff - r12 RVR
    Withy: Keeslaff - r13 HNT, Cometodaddy - r9 BA, Warglaff -r7 STK

  23. #3473
    Creeps were back tonight. Many more creeps than freeps in the moors, and Kala did a good job keeping numbers even in the fights.
    Withywindle characters-Caesaran (warden), Dernudan (Lore master)
    Brandywine characters- Dernudan (champion), Denthur (guardian), Delphinianic(captain)

  24. #3474
    Quote Originally Posted by giboosc View Post
    sorry but i see SWs getting dpsed not stunned
    [center][IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/ohqwlt.png[/IMG][/center]
    [center][color=red][size=3]all chars kinda retired, not playin anymore[/size][/color][/center]
    [center]out of date but too bored to change it[/center]

  25. #3475
    Quote Originally Posted by Akrorgash View Post
    I have an awful memory, yes.


    I didn't hear any of that on ts. If you are sure you actually were talking as it happened, then the only explanation I can give is that I was concentrating on my spar and was blocking it out. I remember mid-spar being aware something was happening and you were forming a craid, I asked in tribe what was going on and no-one seemed sure. You sounded very angry and knowing you, I didn't partivularly want to get involved when you are angry. I didn't know you'd been ganked, I had no idea why you were angry, but I still didn't like that you wanted to make a revenge craid, so I stayed out of it, when you starting getting more insistent in channel, I asked for inv because I made the decision that I'd rather aid you and stay on good terms with you than fall out. You didn't invite, probably sensed my reluctance.

    Why do your efforts mean when you are some crazy revenge mission we should help? Seek revenge against the one who ganked you, sure, but I don't like the kill all mentality/zerg all mentality. You know that. The incident with the champ could have been that freeps didn't know he was getting healed...I doubt they'd attack you if they knew that.

    I always told you when you asked, and when you asked and I didn't know, I asked Imi. I can remember many times I did this. I was not spying, and I really wish you'd stop being like this. I really thought the next message I'd read from you would be a nice one, or at least a 'oh ok, fair enough' one. I can't prove I wasn't spying, but you know how much I like fairplay - you seriously think I'd 'spy'?????


    Thank you for that little snipe there at the end as well.


    You really have no concept of loyalty at all do you?
    Espirit de Corps.
    Just words ?
    Yes I think I had earned the right to expect the backup of the creep community , because I actually cared , and I had shown I cared through relentless adversity.
    An injury to one is an injury to all.
    You're big on community , don't you understand this ?
    If you had called for help Akro , for all my dislike of some of your actions ,my X would have been down first in OOC.
    I think your belief that you could achieve fair play by passing information to the opposition was fatally flawed , unless everyone shares your morals ( which freeps actions over many months had shown they damn well didn't) you where really just selling us out.

 

 
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