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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by cyadra View Post
    Then what you are saying is...pre level 85 there really is no reason to make any investment at all into acquiring anything except a 3rd age weapon. Once you hit 85 (or whatever the level cap is) then it might make some sense into acquiring one.
    Indeed, that appears to be the best approach for leveing in that it guarantees top-notch DPS while not needing any special considerations towards legacies and what-have-you.

    HTH,
    SNy

  2. #27
    Hm not much contribution here, so I'll add some current data:
    Code:
    level 85 1st Age Captain emblem, tactical healing rating:
    rank 1:		49
    rank 2:		49.68
    rank 3:		50.36
    rank 4:		51.04
    rank 5:		51.72
    rank 6:		52.4
    rank 7:		53.08
    rank 7*:	53.76
    rank 7**:	54.44
    rank 7***:	55.12
    
    level 85 1st Age 2-hand DPS:
    rank 1:		166.2
    rank 2:		167.2
    rank 3:		168.2
    rank 4:		169.2
    rank 5:		170.2
    rank 6:		171.2
    rank 7:		172.2
    rank 7*:	173.2
    
    level 85 2nd Age 2-hand DPS:
    rank 1: 	157.2
    rank 2:		158.2
    rank 3:		159.2
    rank 4:		160.2
    rank 5:		161.2
    rank 6:		162.2
    rank 7:		163.2
    rank 7*:	164.2
    each '*' stands for a star-lit crystal.
    I guess it's safe to assume that 2 and 3 crystals add another 1.0 DPS to 1st and 2nd age 2-hand weapons.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    France
    Posts
    749
    For information, the 'effective' level of LIs for the purpose of calculating most ratings is now:
    - Level 85 3rd age -> level 94
    - Level 85 2nd age -> level 100
    - Level 85 1st age -> level 107

    +1 level per crystal (see previous posts for 2nd and 3rd age weapons around level 75 though)

    Basically:
    - All LIs get +8 'hidden' levels at level 76, +9 at level 77+
    - All 2nd ages get +1 'hidden' levels
    - All 1st ages get +2 'hidden' levels
    - 2nd ages get an additional +4 'hidden' levels at level 75+
    - 1st ages get an additional +9 'hidden' levels at level 75+
    - 2nd ages get an additional +1 'hidden' levels at level 85
    - 1st ages get an additional +2 'hidden' levels at level 85

    Edit: DPS/Tactical Damage/Healing/Shield Use ratings have been artificially boosted some more for 2nd and 1st age LIs beyond their effective level (at level 85, +1 for 2nd ages, +3 for 1st ages).
    Last edited by Equendil; May 09 2013 at 10:46 PM.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    7,583
    Quote Originally Posted by Equendil View Post
    For information, the 'effective' level of LIs for the purpose of calculating most ratings is now:
    - Level 85 3rd age -> level 94
    - Level 85 2nd age -> level 104
    - Level 85 1st age -> level 107
    And people wonder why group content suddenly seems trivial? *sigh* Such a major boost.

    Thanks for illustrating that while 3A->2A is a huge jump, 2A->FA is significantly less so =)
    Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
    Delego-L85 Hunter ; Stodden-L51-Captain ; Edhul-L61-Loremaster
    Deglorion - SoA XP Disabler

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    France
    Posts
    749
    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    Thanks for illustrating that while 3A->2A is a huge jump, 2A->FA is significantly less so =)
    Oops, I got myself utterly confused with my own numbers actually. I've corrected that, sorry.

    The jump from 3rd to 2nd ages is not that huge really.

    For instance:
    - a 3rd age 2h weapon maxes out at 159.2 DPS
    - a 2nd age 2h weapon maxes out at 166.2 DPS
    - a 1st age 2h weapon maxes out at 175.2 DPS

  6. #31
    So, I've read in another thread that a 95 SA 2hander has 240 DPS prior to star-lit crystals.

    Is that accurate? Could someone provide me with the new numbers for stuff >85?

    Equendil, I see in the discussion about LIP on lotrointerface that you are working on a new version, do you have the base data already? Would be much appreciated to update the diagram with.

    Thanks,
    SNy

    Edit:
    So I went into an allied kinship's TS to ask about this and was told that, sure enough, 95 SA 2Handers have 240 DPS at rank 7 without crystals. That is an increase of ~47% from a level 85 SA 2H.
    He, being on his captain, then told me that 99.3 was the tactical healing rating on an 95 SA emblem. That is, get a load of this, a, increase of ~111.5% from an 85 SA emblem.

    Look at the sharp bends upwards in those graphs! How can people possibly believe this to be WAI?
    Last edited by SNy-lotrolinux-EU; Dec 06 2013 at 01:13 PM.

  7. #32
    Lvl 95 3rd Age 1-hander: 203.1 - 209.1 DPS (steps of 1.0)

    Lvl 95 3rd Age 2-hander: 232.2 - 238.2 DPS (steps of 1.0)
    Lvl 95 2nd Age 2-hander: 234.2 - 240.2 DPS (steps of 1.0)
    A whooping 2 DPS difference...

    Lvl 95 2nd Age Captain's Emblem: 95.24 - 99.32 Tactical Healing (steps of 0.68)

    Haven't found any starlit crystals yet, but I assume they just take it one step higher as usual.

    As for WAI, well our charaters are totally overpowered already when still using the Lvl 85 FA LIs from last expansion, so the new LIs themselves are not the root cause really. And honestly, +50% DPS would be okay considering our morale pools got up by about the same amount (if not more), but mobs didn't scale in any comparable way (would have to lookup the exact morale values though), so they are a complete pushover.

    Also some dev mentioned somewhere the stat bloating was intended so you wouldn't just throw away all yellow/purple gear from quests and keep your raid equip til 95, which is indeed quite common in e.g. WoW (though just look where that stat explosion took them now...), but again, you need to adapt the mobs, and of course also our formulas that convert the raw value to percentages. But neither seems to have gotten any reasonable adaption.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx3d View Post
    Lvl 95 3rd Age 1-hander: 203.1 - 209.1 DPS (steps of 1.0)

    Lvl 95 3rd Age 2-hander: 232.2 - 238.2 DPS (steps of 1.0)
    Lvl 95 2nd Age 2-hander: 234.2 - 240.2 DPS (steps of 1.0)
    A whooping 2 DPS difference...

    Lvl 95 2nd Age Captain's Emblem: 95.24 - 99.32 Tactical Healing (steps of 0.68)
    Added, thanks!

    SNy

  9. #34
    Oh seems I made a mistake, the 3rd age 1-hander was level 92 not 95:

    Lvl 92 3rd Age 1-hander: 203.1 - 209.1 DPS
    Lvl 94 3rd Age 1-hander: 211.1 - 217.1 DPS
    Lvl 95 3rd Age 1-hander: 215.1 - 221.1 DPS
    (seems there is a 4 DPS jump per level between 86 and 95)

    Lvl 94 3rd Age Minstrel sword: 152.11 - 158.89 tactical damage (steps of 1.13)

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    371

    Best Practices while Leveling

    This is some great information, and great work. I'd like to try and summarize a "Best-practices for using LIs while leveling" based on this info, but I have a few questions:

    Most of the analysis and conclusions here are focused on a Legendary Item's tooltip-listed DPS. Why is this important for all classes? For instance, my Lore-Master does *less* damage with his LI staff attacks than with the rest of his skills. Since damage skills are improved by the LI's Tactical Damage Rating, wouldn't Tactical Damage Rating be a more important indicator of overall damage? (Or is the effect of TDR known to scale evenly with tooltip-listed DPS?)

    It was suggested earlier that it's best to replace your LIs *every level,* because of the tooltip-listed DPS increases. Why are we ignoring Legacies when determining when to replace LIs? My understanding is that my Lore-Master's actual DPS is largely determined by the Legacies on his Legendary Item. For instance, the legacy "Light of the Rising Dawn Damage" directly increases that skill's damage, up to 15%. Assuming I use that skill every time it's off cooldown, couldn't an LI with that Legacy do more actual DPS than a higher level LI without that skill?

    To put it a different way, is there any reason to think that the tooltip-listed DPS or TDR increase between Legendary Items that are one equip-level apart is enough to overshadow actual-DPS increase from Legacies?

    Moreover, don't we need to factor in Legacy Point expenditure when determining when to swap LIs? The chart typically shows the tooltip-listed Weapon DPS at Tier 7 with crystals; this is appropriate for comparison. But in practice, were I to swap LIs every level, I would have less and less Legendary Points to put into A) Weapon DPS/TDR, and B) Legacies which increase actual-DPS (Like "Light of the Rising Dawn Damage").

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Inkling View Post
    This is some great information, and great work. I'd like to try and summarize a "Best-practices for using LIs while leveling" based on this info, but I have a few questions:
    Thanks and you are very welcome.

    But let me state up front that there is really only one sensible advice for LIs while leveling: do not invest into them, use them as the throw-away-junk items they in fact are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inkling View Post
    Most of the analysis and conclusions here are focused on a Legendary Item's tooltip-listed DPS. Why is this important for all classes? For instance, my Lore-Master does *less* damage with his LI staff attacks than with the rest of his skills. Since damage skills are improved by the LI's Tactical Damage Rating, wouldn't Tactical Damage Rating be a more important indicator of overall damage? (Or is the effect of TDR known to scale evenly with tooltip-listed DPS?)
    It seems you are mistaken as to what the diagrams actually show. The values in the diagrams do not show the dps tooltip per se, but the values of their primary stat, with the solid dots indicating the value for rank 7 and the empty circles (as detailed in the short text above) showing ranks 1-6 and applied crystals (generally only for those items at each cap, to not overload the graph with too much detail).

    As such, for tactical weapons like lm staves, minstrel weapons and rk runestones, they designate the tactical damage rating, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the value listed as the dps in the item tooltips (the latter being the damage when used in melee range autoattacks or melee stuff like staff/herald's strike).

    Quote Originally Posted by Inkling View Post
    It was suggested earlier that it's best to replace your LIs *every level,* because of the tooltip-listed DPS increases. Why are we ignoring Legacies when determining when to replace LIs? My understanding is that my Lore-Master's actual DPS is largely determined by the Legacies on his Legendary Item. For instance, the legacy "Light of the Rising Dawn Damage" directly increases that skill's damage, up to 15%. Assuming I use that skill every time it's off cooldown, couldn't an LI with that Legacy do more actual DPS than a higher level LI without that skill?
    Yes, but consider that there are two very disctinct situations you can find yourself in with LIs.

    One situation is leveling. The suggestion here is to use the highest level LI and throw the others away ASAP. That usually means to level them no further than about 21-25, because then your char will likely have advanced a level. The assumption is, therefore, that the only points spent for the LI will be those of the primary stat and nothing else (rank 1-7 costing 230 points, which you only get at item level... uh... 23 or somesuch).
    Hence, it is safe to simply disregard any legacy bonuses the item might or might not have.

    The other situation of course is the cap, where you generally aim at getting the exact same legacies your prior item had and then it's just the grind to get the earlier age and hope the effing RNG will be nice to you (yes, captain emblem major stupidity, I am looking at you).
    This, also, results in the influence of the legacies themselves being irrelevant due to them being identical, barring any moves like the latest all-out overhaul of just about everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inkling View Post
    To put it a different way, is there any reason to think that the tooltip-listed DPS or TDR increase between Legendary Items that are one equip-level apart is enough to overshadow actual-DPS increase from Legacies?
    If you compare a level X LI with maxed legacies to some level X+1 LI without same, then of course the answer is that it depends. Then again, when following the throw-away rule, comparing a maxed item with a non-maxed one really only applies for a level cap raise. And there, as you can see, the new higher-level LIs are powerful enough in comparison to the older ones that its still often better to throw the old ones away.

    The recurring theme being, incidentally, the actual problem with these items (as detailed many, many times).

    Quote Originally Posted by Inkling View Post
    Moreover, don't we need to factor in Legacy Point expenditure when determining when to swap LIs? The chart typically shows the tooltip-listed Weapon DPS at Tier 7 with crystals; this is appropriate for comparison. But in practice, were I to swap LIs every level, I would have less and less Legendary Points to put into A) Weapon DPS/TDR, and B) Legacies which increase actual-DPS (Like "Light of the Rising Dawn Damage").
    When I leveled characters (or played the game, for that matter), the chars used to end up leveling up at the right times to actually dispose of the old items and get new ones (so, around item level 23, as said above). YMMV.

    HTH,
    SNy

  12. #37
    Level 95 2nd Age Minstrel Sword: 158.89 - 165.67 tactical damage (steps of 1.13)
    Level 95 3rd Age Minstrel Book: 93.88 - 97.96 tactical healing (steps of 0.68)

    again, without any starlit crystals

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx3d View Post
    Level 95 2nd Age Minstrel Sword: 158.89 - 165.67 tactical damage (steps of 1.13)
    Level 95 3rd Age Minstrel Book: 93.88 - 97.96 tactical healing (steps of 0.68)

    again, without any starlit crystals
    Added, thanks.

    So, looking at it, it would appear that a 2nd age level 95 is two ranks ("steps") above the 3rd age item 95. At least this applies to both the 2h DPS and the healing stuff so far (3rd age rank 3 being identical to 2nd age rank 1 etc.).

    For reference, level 85 2nd age items are 7 "steps" ahead, or in other words a 2nd age 85 rank 1 is identical to a 3rd age rank 7 with a crystal.

    SNy

  14. #39
    Yes, it seems two starlit crystals basically bring a 3rd age to 2nd age levels.

    Or in other words, the difference between 3rd age and 2ng age is pathetic.
    It's really only about the extra legendary points, and with the rather flat curve, investing in the primary attribute is lowest prioritiy in most cases too. It gave me less than +0.5% overall damage or healing according to the tooltips, so many (if not all interesting) attributes are much stronger.

 

 
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