We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 36

Thread: Dagger VS Sword

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Posts
    5,095

    Dagger VS Sword

    Back in the day, daggers had such poor damage output compared to maces that everyone went mace primary, Dagger/fast offhand or racial trait bonus offhand (club/sword).

    Now, fast forward, weapons have been equalized and any might benefits by being human have been trashed by the Isengard combat stat revamp to agility, which leaves me with this question; am I best served by the burglar passive dagger % bonuses or should I stick to swords to gain the 2% man sword damage bonus?



    Parses, charts and graphs? Anyone?

  2. #2
    Well my off hand is a dagger and it serves me well! Very nice bonus it gives and I've never used a sword for off hand yet since Moria, but I grew to like daggers more Anways and go for those better stats. My main had is a spear I've used because of the DoT on in but daggers I think are the way to go for Burg and hunter.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    3,713
    I think they both give passive 2% bonuses, don't they? In which case it wouldn't matter. Swords get the slight buff of reducing miss chance on auto attacks, and daggers have a slight buff to auto attack crits.

    Personally, I think you should re-roll to a real Burg (aka Hobbit) and use daggers. Murgs are just creepy...I want to hide my children every time I see one going into Mischief.
    [color=red]Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...[/color]

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Posts
    5,095
    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    I think they both give passive 2% bonuses, don't they? In which case it wouldn't matter. Swords get the slight buff of reducing miss chance on auto attacks, and daggers have a slight buff to auto attack crits.

    Personally, I think you should re-roll to a real Burg (aka Hobbit) and use daggers. Murgs are just creepy...I want to hide my children every time I see one going into Mischief.
    Says the creepy half height with hair growing where it shouldn't.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Posts
    5,095
    My real question is how do the passive dagger bonuses work. In the lorebook it doesn't give a hard stat to daggers, in the lotro wiki it says:

    Daggers Training: Accomplished 15 22 Silver 50 Copper +1% Dagger Damage.
    Daggers Training: Expert 30 90 Silver +1.5% Dagger Damage.
    Daggers Training: Master 45 202 Silver 50 Copper +2% Dagger Damage.

    So do those stack? Is that 4.5%? or just 2% dagger damage in total once you hit master (so it's really +1%, +.5% +.5%)? Is that even accurate?

  6. #6
    they replace the previous as you get the masteries, the cap is 2% on daggers...or every single burg everywhere would be using 2 daggers and even noobs could be topping 2k dps right now

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Posts
    5,095
    Quote Originally Posted by Mylittlemurder View Post
    they replace the previous as you get the masteries, the cap is 2% on daggers...or every single burg everywhere would be using 2 daggers and even noobs could be topping 2k dps right now
    That's what I figured. So Daggers are equal to swords with the man sword damage bonus, the only benefit is if I want to free up that virtue slot so I could gain Upper Cut! go me...

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Ettenmoors
    Posts
    264
    Quote Originally Posted by legolasluver View Post
    Well my off hand is a dagger and it serves me well! Very nice bonus it gives and I've never used a sword for off hand yet since Moria, but I grew to like daggers more Anways and go for those better stats. My main had is a spear I've used because of the DoT on in but daggers I think are the way to go for Burg and hunter.
    Seems you missed the point... since Burgs can't even use spears.

    Limitations on weapon choice has always bugged me.

    I've always used Daggers even when it wasn't cool. I like the increase to crit %

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    San Antonio, TX
    Posts
    921
    clubs ftw

  10. #10
    The 1% crit chance on auto attacks is to good to ignore. Auto attacks make up like 1/4 of your overall dps

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Proud Canuck
    Posts
    1,263
    Quote Originally Posted by Lao10 View Post
    The 1% crit chance on auto attacks is to good to ignore. Auto attacks make up like 1/4 of your overall dps
    Not only that, but it's an additional chance to open up your crit response skills. I've always gone with daggers, even when it wasn't 'cool'. With a decent skill rotation back then you could burn through your entire power bar in less then 30 seconds.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    3,713
    Quote Originally Posted by Lao10 View Post
    The 1% crit chance on auto attacks is to good to ignore. Auto attacks make up like 1/4 of your overall dps
    In a 10-minute fight, you will do about 600 auto-attacks, max. 1% extra crit means 6 more crits.

    If your AA hits for 800 on average (generous figure), and AAs crit at 125% (not affected by crit multipliers), then in a 10-minute fight, that means 1,200 extra damage.

    Considering you would have done at least one million damage (probably more) by that point, the extra 1,200 from the 1% AA crit is miniscule. About one-tenth of one percent of total damage, best case scenario.

    Hardly "too good to ignore" for me. But I still use them because Exposed Throat with clubs strikes me as absurd.
    [color=red]Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...[/color]

  13. #13
    I've always gone daggers in favor of keeping that racial trait slot open. Why trait for something when I already get it for 'free'?

  14. #14
    I'm almost positive that the to hit bonus from swords does nothing for burglars.

    There are 2 causes of misses to be concerned with. The first is due to low agility. This shouldn't be a concern for burglars. The concensus seems to be that somewhere around level*10 agility will eliminate these misses completely. Burglars are way over the required 750 agility.

    The second cause of misses is due to level differences between you and the enemy. Agility does nothing for that miss chance. Even skills that supposedly never miss, will miss if you are fighting an enemy above your level. Tactical skills can miss due to this reason, but otherwise never miss. I'd be surprised if the sword bonus does anything to help this miss chance since nothing else does.

    So the 1% autoattack crit chance from daggers might not be huge, but it doesn't require a racial trait for the 2% damage bonus and it at least does something.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Posts
    5,095
    So potentially a good thing to look out for and possibly work towards in the future, but I'm not seeing any reason to leap out of my chair and go change my melee set up right away.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    your mind
    Posts
    3,880
    Quote Originally Posted by shazbaat View Post
    The second cause of misses is due to level differences between you and the enemy. Agility does nothing for that miss chance.
    Do you have a reference for there being separate miss chances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Graalx2 View Post
    Agility still reduces miss chance the same way it always did. It will be added back to the Agility tooltip in the next update.

    There is a base 10% miss chance with 0 Agility.
    There is a +3% additional miss chance fighting +1 or +2 level mobs
    There is a +10% additional miss chance fighting +3 or +4 level mobs
    after +4 levels it gets much worse.
    I found on my captain, misses went down noticeably when I equipped a bunch of agility fighting MOBs four levels above. (Yeah, I know, my anecdote isn't data, but the developer post is.) It also seems unlikely they would code extra programming logic to undo agility's impact on missing only when a MOB is higher level.



    "Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
    Link to our community LOTRO store google spreadsheet pricelist and conversion rates, please contribute too!: https://goo.gl/wxPqCm

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    Do you have a reference for there being separate miss chances?
    Unfortunately I don't, but if my memory is correct, it was a dev post from a discussion of Heartseeker or Epic Conclusion missing. Since I don't have a reference I just went out and gathered some data.

    My burglar has 1894 agi. I went out and experimented with the level 75 training dummy in galtrev. I autoattacked for a little less than 10 minutes for different runs (dagger/dagger).

    1. 546 hits, 0 misses
    2. 448 hits, 0 misses

    Now, for the next 2 runs I went out and got myself killed so I had +4 dread, which put me at -2 effective level, so according to your quoted text, I should have had at most a 3% miss chance, and less if agility was compensating for it. The results I got were interesting.

    3. 422 hits, 26 misses or 5.8%
    4. 453 hits, 43 misses or 8.7%

    3&4 together are:
    875 hits, 69 misses or 7.3%

    Which is a lot higher than 3%. So maybe the 3% number in graal's post is 3% per level. Next I got myself killed and bought +1 destiny hope so that I was effectively at level 74. Then I did 2 more runs.

    5. 495 hits, 23 misses or 4.4%
    6. 471 hits, 17 misses or 3.5%
    5&6: 966 hits, 40 misses or 4.0%

    So I think with those numbers, the most likely explanation is +3% miss chance per level difference for the first 2 levels, and this is unaffected by agility. Of course the numbers don't prove that, but graal's post doesn't seem 100% accurate anyway.

    The next steps would be to test with a sword, and test with more/less agility to see if it makes a difference.

    Edit: just did another run where I took off jewelry/armor to get down to 1089 agility.
    7. 434 hits, 0 misses

    So at 1894 agility I'm way over the zero miss area against on level mobs. I think that gives evidence that the miss penalty due to level difference is unaffected by agility.

    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    I found on my captain, misses went down noticeably when I equipped a bunch of agility fighting MOBs four levels above. (Yeah, I know, my anecdote isn't data, but the developer post is.) It also seems unlikely they would code extra programming logic to undo agility's impact on missing only when a MOB is higher level.
    Just to clarify, agility isn't ignored when the mob is a higher level, the agility penalty is added to the level difference penalty.
    Last edited by shazbaat; Oct 03 2012 at 11:56 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    In a 10-minute fight, you will do about 600 auto-attacks, max. 1% extra crit means 6 more crits.

    If your AA hits for 800 on average (generous figure), and AAs crit at 125% (not affected by crit multipliers), then in a 10-minute fight, that means 1,200 extra damage.

    Considering you would have done at least one million damage (probably more) by that point, the extra 1,200 from the 1% AA crit is miniscule. About one-tenth of one percent of total damage, best case scenario.

    Hardly "too good to ignore" for me. But I still use them because Exposed Throat with clubs strikes me as absurd.

    I don't get how you calculate 6 AA crits into 1,200 extra damage... only 1 AA crit is about 1200 damage points.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    In a 10-minute fight, you will do about 600 auto-attacks, max. 1% extra crit means 6 more crits.

    If your AA hits for 800 on average (generous figure), and AAs crit at 125% (not affected by crit multipliers), then in a 10-minute fight, that means 1,200 extra damage.

    Considering you would have done at least one million damage (probably more) by that point, the extra 1,200 from the 1% AA crit is miniscule. About one-tenth of one percent of total damage, best case scenario.

    Hardly "too good to ignore" for me. But I still use them because Exposed Throat with clubs strikes me as absurd.
    In a word, No.

    Each auto attack has a 1% increase chance to critical hit. That does not mean in 100 hits you will only make 1 critical hit. It means that out of each hit you have a 1% chance to crit. The numbers are passive and multiplied by themselves. I see your methodology but it is flawed. I don’t know how to exactly explain it but it works with *powered numbers* I believe that because the number are powered then in 100 attacks you end up having a 10% chance.

    In such case In 100 hits……

    Average hit 800.
    Critical hit is 1200.
    Varience is 400.

    Total hits at 800 * 100 attacks is 80,000.
    Total critical hits at 1200 * 100 attacks is 120,000.
    Varience is 40,000 which is times by 0.1 (to give 10%) which equals 4000 damage.

    Your initial post stated 600 attacks which means 4000*6 (6 to represent the number of hundreds) equals 24,000 in a 10 min parse.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Posts
    5,095
    Quote Originally Posted by Lao10 View Post
    Total hits at 800 * 100 attacks is 80,000.
    Total critical hits at 1200 * 100 attacks is 120,000.
    Varience is 40,000 which is times by 0.1 (to give 10%) which equals 4000 damage.

    Your initial post stated 600 attacks which means 4000*6 (6 to represent the number of hundreds) equals 24,000 in a 10 min parse.


    So, 24,000 damage divided by 600 seconds of the fight, that's a 40dps increase for a burglar, IF they are using double daggers and if those double daggers are exactly equal to the swords/clubs they could get their hands on. So if I am looking for an offhand weapon (because we know all legendaries are created equal because this is the land of everyone must be fair) and a dagger and a sword have equal dps numbers, then the dagger will give me potentially 20dps more than the sword.

    I think stats will still matter, if the sword has +crit and the dagger doesn't I'd be hard pressed to want to go for the dagger.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylexis View Post
    So, 24,000 damage divided by 600 seconds of the fight, that's a 40dps increase for a burglar, IF they are using double daggers and if those double daggers are exactly equal to the swords/clubs they could get their hands on. So if I am looking for an offhand weapon (because we know all legendaries are created equal because this is the land of everyone must be fair) and a dagger and a sword have equal dps numbers, then the dagger will give me potentially 20dps more than the sword.

    I think stats will still matter, if the sword has +crit and the dagger doesn't I'd be hard pressed to want to go for the dagger.
    Thats 600 auto attacks in a 10 min parse/fight we were talking about here. not 600 seconds.

    Dagger is still the way to go tho

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    3,713
    Quote Originally Posted by Lao10 View Post
    In a word, No.

    Each auto attack has a 1% increase chance to critical hit. That does not mean in 100 hits you will only make 1 critical hit. It means that out of each hit you have a 1% chance to crit. The numbers are passive and multiplied by themselves. I see your methodology but it is flawed. I don’t know how to exactly explain it but it works with *powered numbers* I believe that because the number are powered then in 100 attacks you end up having a 10% chance.

    In such case In 100 hits……

    Average hit 800.
    Critical hit is 1200.
    Varience is 400.

    Total hits at 800 * 100 attacks is 80,000.
    Total critical hits at 1200 * 100 attacks is 120,000.
    Varience is 40,000 which is times by 0.1 (to give 10%) which equals 4000 damage.

    Your initial post stated 600 attacks which means 4000*6 (6 to represent the number of hundreds) equals 24,000 in a 10 min parse.
    If you have a 1% crit chance and you make 1,000,000 attacks, you will crit 1% of the time, which is exactly the same as having a 1% chance for each hit. That's exactly how probability works.

    You're saying that something that gives a 1% chance to crit actually makes you crit 10% more often? If you have, say, a 20% crit chance normally, you will, over time, crit 20% of the time. Not sure why adding 1% crit chance would work multiplicatively at all, let alone somehow inflate to 10% more crits.

    Post all the stupid .gifs you want, but you're going to have to do a lot more explaining than putting "powered numbers" in quotes to make me think that adding 1% to crit chance will magically result in 10% more crits.

    (BTW, 800 x 1.25 = 1000, not 1200, so your variance is cut in half at the very least)
    Last edited by Frisco; Oct 04 2012 at 11:30 AM.
    [color=red]Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...[/color]

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    3,713
    Quote Originally Posted by Lao10 View Post
    Thats 600 auto attacks in a 10 min parse/fight we were talking about here. not 600 seconds.

    Dagger is still the way to go tho
    To calculate Damage Per Second, you divide Damage (24,000) by Seconds (600 seconds = 10 minutes).

    Maybe you should break out that calculator.

    (edit: not that I think the numbers are accurate, I just am amused that someone who posts condescending .gifs about math didn't recognize that there are 600 seconds in 10 minutes )
    [color=red]Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...[/color]

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    I just am amused that someone who posts condescending .gifs about math didn't recognize that there are 600 seconds in 10 minutes )
    I never meant to sound condescending. If that was the result of my posts, I apologise. However 2 wrongs do not make a right and now who is the one being condescending.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    If you have a 1% crit chance and you make 1,000,000 attacks, you will crit 1% of the time, which is exactly the same as having a 1% chance for each hit. That's exactly how probability works.
    If I Bet on Red in Roulette and black comes in 10 times in a row, on the 11th try, do the laws of probability tell me that red will come in as black has been in for so many times? No, it is still an equal chance per spin. This is what I am trying to say. Its only a 1% chance on each and every hit, doesn’t mean over 100 hits there is still only a 1% chance. This is why I said there is an introduction of powered numbers. As also previously stated, I cannot explain how it works as I see it in my head it is impossible to write down.

    Tonight just stand in front of a training dummy until you have hit 100 auto attacks and your combat analysis will tell you that you how many of the are critical hits. Just for basics with no biased, use a sword for 1 and a dagger for the other. Doesn’t matter what the level of the sword or dagger is, all that matters is weapon type.

    Once you have done it, look at how many are critical hits and how many are not. With the dagger equipped I think that you will have (according to a balance in both our logic)

    Sword 25 Critical hits
    Dagger 35 Critical hits

    These are rough figures and assuming that you are close to the crit cap of 25%. They may vary by a couple, but the principal will remain the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    Post all the stupid .gifs you want, but you're going to have to do a lot more explaining than putting "powered numbers" in quotes to make me think that adding 1% to crit chance will magically result in 10% more crits.
    I hope I covered that. And to reference me as using stupid .gifs is not really fair or on

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    your mind
    Posts
    3,880
    Quote Originally Posted by shazbaat View Post
    Since I don't have a reference I just went out and gathered some data.
    Thank you, fascinating stuff and kudos for figuring out a useful methodology, brilliant (and +rep).

    (Kind of ironic given the more recent responses in this thread today, which are more easily tested with a training dummy; hint, hint for those readers.)

    I also find it intriguing you found a per level difference (although that does match the wording Graalx2 used on a completely unrelated matter in a similar fashion).

    This shifts my perspective on the matter.



    "Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
    Link to our community LOTRO store google spreadsheet pricelist and conversion rates, please contribute too!: https://goo.gl/wxPqCm

 

 
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload