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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Sweden
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    466

    Captain Pets - something needs to be done

    I was gonna make a reply in this thread:
    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...gendary-Weapon
    But since it had already derailed into a discussion about Captain DPS, I decided to make a new thread.

    When is using a Herald or Archer viable? - As it is now, I'd like to say never. But I would like some input on this, if anyone has found a good use for them, let me know.

    Did some testing today with Combat Analysis, and it's a pretty sad story...

    All testing done on Galtrev Training dummy
    With my normal raid traits, no Blade-bro or buffs
    Herald of War - 25 DPS (45 second test)
    With my normal raid traits, Blade-bro + crit buff
    Herald of War - 25 DPS (45 second test)
    With my normal raid traits, no Blade-bro or buffs
    Archer - 68 DPS (Average of 3 15s tests, his attack duration is so slow it resets)
    With my normal raid traits, Blade-bro + crit buff
    Archer - 60 DPS (1 minute test)

    First of all, it seems that the crit buff does nothing for our heralds/archers, but most importantly, we see that using them this way yields very very low numbers. So lets try traiting for their use... (From now on, I'll show the highest DPS achieved, whether this was with or without buffs)

    With 5 red, incl the two Herald traits
    Herald of War - 50 DPS (45 second test)
    Archer - 80 DPS (45 second test)

    100% increase with the Herald, and a little boost to the Archer, but still low numbers. So let's try with the Oathbreaker Armaments slotted (although, their description only states a higher Armour value, and not very much higher compared to our current Herald Armaments)

    With 5 red, incl the two Herald traits + OB Armaments
    Herald of War - 45,5 DPS (Average of one 45 second and one 15 second test)
    Archer - 88 DPS (Average of one 30 second test and two 15 second tests)

    Well, no difference there, so let's just go full out crazy with the Archer, since it's proven highest DPS so far...

    With 5 red, incl the two Herald traits + OB Armaments + Blade-bro + Crit buff + Telling Mark + To Arms
    Archer - 137 DPS (Average of four 15 second tests)

    So, i ask again, what can we use our Heralds/Archers for? Are they in a desperate need of a revamp, or should they simply be removed completely, freeing up two red traits that can actually improve the critized DPS of the Captain?
    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8C8nLy2okg[/url] Saruman 6-man
    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj4h-CF9log[/url] Warden Survival
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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Watertown, MA
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    2,907
    Do your parses count autoattacks only, or do they incorporate the Herald's attack skills?

    (Also, in RoR, the Heralds will now match player level. This could increase both DPS and survivability a bit, since miss chance and a bunch of other things are worse against above-level mobs. Remember that our heralds are all level 73 right now.)

    Either way, yes, the actual DPS provided by Heralds and Archers is kind of low. The main reason they exist is so we have a target for -Brother skills while soloing. This is especially true post-RoI. The non-Archer Heralds also provide a heal that, while small, is still pretty helpful in some situations.

    Back in the ancient times, I heard of people off-tanking with Heralds. I even used to try this on purpose by sending my Herald in first. Before Moria, it even sometimes worked, though mostly it didn't. Even with the (one, high-CD) threat generation skill they have, they simply can't hold threat against a PC.

    Again, though, post-RoI simply having a target for your -Brother skills provides a nice benefit to the solo Captain. It would be nice if their role as solo companions could be expanded a bit more, since they don't now and never will have a valid use in groups.

    For instance, the LtC traits that increase Herald damage output and armour could also apply to the Captain while the Herald is active. (Through a buff called "Companionship", perhaps? ) The Archer's evasion buff could apply to the Captain as well, to compensate for the loss of healing and banner buff.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    1,866
    I ran solo in RoR Beta using a Victory Herald. The two reasons for this is to take advantage of the -Brother skill, most importantly for the attack duration buff which is being boosted to 15% when legacied. This on top of the War-cry buff meant my Captain was actually attacking at a decent rate.

    The other reason is for the herald heal, which with Victory provides both Morale and Power. The occasional stun comes in handy too.

    In summary, the attack speed buffs and the Power restoring skills are why I run with a herald.
    [LEFT][COLOR=#ffffff]Morlenil Barkolomew Turmuz Shurz Gruubluk

    Posting in white; so people can read my dismal ramblings easier.[/COLOR][/LEFT]

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
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    7,600
    I also saw something by xRaina (FYI: DO NOT COPY AND PASTE FROM BR FORUMS) that strongly indicates that Turbine is well aware of this issue, so I would (hopefully) expect to see something mentioned within the next couple of updates.

    Mounted combat trumps all atm =/
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    466
    Well, when soloing there is ofcourse the Blade-bro use to consider...
    I also play cappy in Beta, but haven't really thought of the -attack duration now being affected by legacy, I can see this makes using Blade-bro while soling a bit more effective...

    Still, soloing is for me (esp on Captain, that only really shines in a group) very rare...

    I'm gonna have to try the legacied Strength of Will in Beta with a Herald...

    EDIT: Forgot to mention: Most parses where autoattacks only. I did try using the skills on the Archer, but induction time + what seems to be a longer attack duration on those skills made equal or worse DPS than just autoattacks... I didn't try using the skills on Herald, maybe that would improve the numbers...
    Last edited by vr00mie; Sep 26 2012 at 01:25 PM.
    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8C8nLy2okg[/url] Saruman 6-man
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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Watertown, MA
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    Yeah, the dummies are pretty bad for damage parses. It's frequently better to pick a common landscape mob, preferably one with good HP and no stuns or disarms, and run parses on them. Not perfect, but better than the dummies.

    In particular, the Archer's skills do pretty nice damage, despite the long channeling time.

    Anyway, nice to hear from Almagnus that the devs are aware of the problem and thinking about it, even though other things are taking priority for now.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  7. #7

    With 5 red, incl the two Herald traits
    while Perma CC'd in the moors.
    Herald of War - 0 DPS (45 second test), 0banner morale, 0banner physical mastery, 0banner 5% dmg, 0 heals.
    leaving the only benefit a planted banner buff...

    Archer - 0 DPS (45 second test), 0banner morale, 0banner physical mastery, 0banner 5% dmg, 0planted banner buffs.

    Leaving nothing, absolutely nothing except a big gap in the captain where his morale and mastery should be.
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  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4
    Here are a few of my suggestions on fixing the Captain Heralds:

    The Captains Heralds should be integrated with the class instead of left as some sort of useless extra part overshadowed by banners. The throw-down banners should be eliminated and the banners combined with the armaments, giving the full combined buffs to the herald: armor, +physical mastery, +%damage, +morale/power, possibly other stats.

    AI:
    Limit the herald to no more than 10m distance from the Captain, using automatic use of the rally skill and speed buffs to force the herald to keep pace. This prevents the herald from doing that stupid run away thing every time you dismount, forcing you to resummon him and then spend a huge amount of time rebuffing. The captain is a very upfront melee character and does not need the summon to provide tanking or significant offtanking. The obvious disadvantage is that the herald won't be able to offtank an archer, but that will be more than made up for by the following corrections.

    Quality of Life:
    The Herald should be usable to the point that a Captain player shouldn't be forced to notice that it is there, and it shouldn't detract from use while grouping. The majority of what the Herald does for the Captain is provide a target for Brother skills while soloing. The problem is that the brother skills dismiss when mounted. Both issues can be solved by having the Herald always affected by the basic Shield-Brother skill, even when using Blade- or Healing- brother on another fellowship member. Inspire, To Arms, and Strength of Will will not be affected by Fellowship-Brother or traitline legendaries if another -Brother skill is in use.

    The Heralds should be resummonable in combat. If the Heralds fell in combat like players they could be revived with the Captain's current skills. While useful in solo play, in fellow or raid play these actions would not be appreciated by members of the fellowship, so my suggestion would be to make the Herald summon skill a Herald revive skill in combat.

    Call to Arms:
    Induction 3s
    You enlist your Herald to carry your banner into battle. When an enemy is defeated you can revive your fallen herald.
    Herald Revives with 50% Morale
    Herald Revives with 50% Power
    Cooldown 2-5m
    Cooldown resets when out of combat for 9s

    Durability:
    The heralds are not durable enough to be at home in any setting that is not solo, and barely even then. The permanent buffs from the Shield-Brother goes some way toward correcting this. Giving the Heralds the large +morale from the banners will also lead to a significant increase in survivability. Additionally the Heralds should recieve a large resistance to aoe attacks that damage more than 3 targets, to prevent them from getting instantly wiped out in raids, as well as preventing standing damage areas from affecting the Herald.

    Diversity:
    Coordinated Attack and Infuriating Tactics should be chanced by Herald type to add diversity to the types of heralds.



    Comments and/or Suggestions of my Suggestions are encouraged.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bay Area, California
    Posts
    872
    Outright removing the Captain's pet shouldn't even be a consideration this late in the game. Either one uses the pet, or not; don't sever a playstyle that part of the Captain playerbase enjoys, just because others can't find ways to micro-manage pets properly. As far as attention to pet revisions/upgrades, they are overdue. Plenty of those topics have been talked about (damage type, skins, AI, skills, etc), and I hope they get checked up.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c2140100000b9311/signature.png]Mavirthael[/charsig]

    6 Chestnut Street, Branway, Breeland, Crickhollow

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Cowplain, United Kingdom
    Posts
    700
    While the basic low damage problem is correct and has my support I do take issue with the idea that a herald cannot hold a mob. It needs to have the chance to do so. That might mean sending it in first and not competing with it, don't fight the same mob if you expect it to tank. I expect a herald to hold one mob without much attention from me, and two with a heal from me if need be. On level normals of course, against tougher than that a different set of tactics applies.

    While the parse might show 80 dps for an archer, I would be much more interested in the range and combined value against a normal on level landscape mob. I don't feel that the dummies are very representative. I have seen 1k dev hits from the archer on on level mobs reasonably frequently. That's not going to take anything down but it does add up quite quickly. What the normal heralds need is a force taunt like the Roaring Challenge the LM bear gets.

    Combat resummoning should be an automatic skill unlocked by traiting Fellowship Brother, probably the most appropriate legendary and one that is not an auto pick, but not one to ignore either.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,600
    After putting some thought into this...

    Why not use the skirmish soldier system for the herald cosmetics? This way, we can define what they look like (and easily name them), and the various armaments condense down to just one or two items per crafting tier.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    After putting some thought into this...

    Why not use the skirmish soldier system for the herald cosmetics? This way, we can define what they look like (and easily name them), and the various armaments condense down to just one or two items per crafting tier.
    About this I'd just like to see gear improvement when I slot the specific trait which improves the Heralds
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