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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunt123 View Post
    The Ring did not turn anyone "invisible", but made them visible only in the "Unseen" world. This world was seen only be the dead and the beings which have seen the Light of Aman, and those wearing a Magic Ring.

    That said, there were beings, like Tom Bombadil, who did not turn invisible after wearing the Ring. Only Mortals turn invisible when they wear a Great Ring (as did the Nazgul, but not the Elves who were immortal, and strangely the Dwarves). Sauron was immortal.
    Valid points (as well as the other poster's point regarding it providing Isildur invisibility.

    Presumably Sauron could have used that function, though. Perhaps he was in denial that he could lose to a bunch of upstart mortals?

  2. #27
    Was it Isildur who actually killed Sauron? I always thought it was Gil-Galad and Elendil who landed the death blow and Isildur cut the ring from the "corpse".

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkheart06 View Post
    Was it Isildur who actually killed Sauron? I always thought it was Gil-Galad and Elendil who landed the death blow and Isildur cut the ring from the "corpse".
    It was Isildur:

    But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: 'This I will have as weregild for my father's death, and my brother's. Was it not I who dealt the Enemy his death-blow?'

    - Isildur refuses to destroy the Ring, from 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age'

  4. #29
    I doubt that the Ring would turn Sauron invisible--as noted before, it is not a ring of invisibility, the invisibility is a side-effect when someone who is not "present" in both worlds wears the Ring. Before he tied himself to a physical form, he could have been "invisible" at will--but he would have still been somewhat detectable by an Elf and certainly "visible" (if that has any meaning in the context) to another Power.

    Historically, none of JRRT's major villains were great fighters, because physical combat is not something they would have call to engage in. Morgoth was not, Sauron is not when we see him at Tol Sirion... he shifts form in order to be able to fight better but still loses to Huan. After the Fall of Numenor, he can no longer change form. Most of JRRT's villains are actually physical cowards, because they fear Death and injury greatly, even though they know they cannot truly die. I would assume this to be true for Sauron as well as it was for Morgoth.

    Sauron would certainly have been very dangerous.. but that is because of what he IS, rather than any combat skill on his part. Unlike a Balrog, neither Morgoth nor Sauron were front-line combatants.

    I doubt that Sauron traveled back to Middle-earth from the wrack of Numenor very quickly. It may have actually taken days, weeks, months, years or even decades (not sure of the time frame) for him to gather his power sufficiently to actually move the Ring. I have no issue with his physical death causing a (by our standards) lengthy period of disability.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunt123 View Post
    That said, there were beings, like Tom Bombadil, who did not turn invisible after wearing the Ring. Only Mortals turn invisible when they wear a Great Ring (as did the Nazgul, but not the Elves who were immortal, and strangely the Dwarves). Sauron was immortal.
    Im not sure but some mortals like Aragorn or Boromir could wield the one ring for destructive power, so not turn them invisible appears to me the ring only turned invisible mortals not of great "innate power" or at least not powerful mortals.

  6. #31
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    This begs the question to me: How did Sauron kill Gil-Galad and Elendil if he was such a bad fighter?

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tailborn View Post
    This begs the question to me: How did Sauron kill Gil-Galad and Elendil if he was such a bad fighter?
    Sauron was a great fighter, but he was a better tactician and sorcerer (sort of the anti-thesis of Gothmog, Morgoth's second favorite baddie)

    He was definitely not a bad fighter, but not up to the mark of Gil-Galad, and perhaps even Elendil. But he had the One Ring, which instantly put him miles ahead of any competition left in M-E when it came to physical combat.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Tailborn View Post
    This begs the question to me: How did Sauron kill Gil-Galad and Elendil if he was such a bad fighter?
    When you are a Maia fighting mortals, you don't have to be a great combatant to win. Most mortals would stand zero chance of defeating a Maia. In this particular case, neither Gil-Galad nor Elendil are "mortal." Gil-Galad is, of course a Noldorin elf, even if he is not an Exile. He is born of parents who had lived in the Blessed Realm.

    Elendil is part elven and part Maia.

    Had Sauron faced "mere mortals" he would likely have been victorious (we might also attribute the victory, in part, to Providence). As it was, the combined efforts of Gil-Galad and Elendil (as well as the others accompanying them, like Isildur) were enough to win through, at great cost.

  9. #34
    when Sauron was taken to Numenor it was after he surrendered without a fight against Ar-Pharazon, so I always assumed he left the ring behind in Barad-dur, but I can´t remember reading the details about it anywhere.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceol-EU View Post
    when Sauron was taken to Numenor it was after he surrendered without a fight against Ar-Pharazon, so I always assumed he left the ring behind in Barad-dur, but I can´t remember reading the details about it anywhere.
    Here's Tolkien's explanation:

    Ar-Pharazôn, as is told in the 'Downfall' or Akallabêth, conquered a terrified Sauron's subjects, not Sauron. Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning: he got free transport to Numenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with them.

    - from a letter written in 1958

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Kosomok View Post
    Elendil is part elven and part Maia.
    Have to disagree with you there. Yes his lineage came from the same as Elrond but Elros decided to be numbered as man and mortal. That choice took that elvish/maia part away and it was replaced with the Gift of Men. When you look closely at the First Age stories only Luthien showed any unusual abilities that might have been derived from her Mother. None of her descendants appear to have similar 'magical' abilities, at least none that we know of. We are not even sure if Dior was mortal or not since he was slain in battle at the young age of 39. He was married and had children so he appears on the surface to have a 'race of Man' maturation timeline and not the much longer Elven scale before reaching adulthood. I believe that when Luthien chose mortality she lost her Elven and Maia self. The half-elven background of Elrond and Elros would have come from Idril and Nimloth (wife of Dior).

    If there was any elven or maia makeup left in him, which I doubt, it would have been very diluted over so many generations. I believe that, like Aragorn in his time, Elendil was the best of the race of Man. True to Iluvatar and perhaps somewhat blessed as a result. Like you said it was the combined effort that brought Sauron down.
    [FONT=Trebuchet MS]"You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81


    [/FONT]

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuor66 View Post
    Have to disagree with you there. Yes his lineage came from the same as Elrond but Elros decided to be numbered as man and mortal. That choice took that elvish/maia part away and it was replaced with the Gift of Men. When you look closely at the First Age stories only Luthien showed any unusual abilities that might have been derived from her Mother. None of her descendants appear to have similar 'magical' abilities, at least none that we know of. We are not even sure if Dior was mortal or not since he was slain in battle at the young age of 39. He was married and had children so he appears on the surface to have a 'race of Man' maturation timeline and not the much longer Elven scale before reaching adulthood. I believe that when Luthien chose mortality she lost her Elven and Maia self. The half-elven background of Elrond and Elros would have come from Idril and Nimloth (wife of Dior).

    If there was any elven or maia makeup left in him, which I doubt, it would have been very diluted over so many generations. I believe that, like Aragorn in his time, Elendil was the best of the race of Man. True to Iluvatar and perhaps somewhat blessed as a result. Like you said it was the combined effort that brought Sauron down.
    There's that kingly power of healing that Aragorn has, and I imagine Elendil would have had as well - that's a kind of vestigial trait that shows their heritage, as it was apparently unique to the Line of Kings ('And so shall the rightful king be known'). Healing was one of Luthien's powers.

    The idea behind having Elves and Men interbreeding was to provide Men with exemplars of noble leadership and thus make the world a better place. One part of that was that once established, those traits of nobility never entirely went away - even though they might not be displayed by every king, they would still be passed down and could re-emerge later (hence Aragorn having the majesty of the kings of old). There was still a little hint of Elf and Maia in all of the scions of the Line of Kings, however well-hidden it might have been in some of them. That strong inheritance of those traits also underpins the idea of Legolas claiming to be able to see that Imrahil had Elvish ancestry, despite the passing of many generations since.

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by tuor66 View Post
    Have to disagree with you there. Yes his lineage came from the same as Elrond but Elros decided to be numbered as man and mortal. That choice took that elvish/maia part away and it was replaced with the Gift of Men. When you look closely at the First Age stories only Luthien showed any unusual abilities that might have been derived from her Mother. None of her descendants appear to have similar 'magical' abilities, at least none that we know of. We are not even sure if Dior was mortal or not since he was slain in battle at the young age of 39. He was married and had children so he appears on the surface to have a 'race of Man' maturation timeline and not the much longer Elven scale before reaching adulthood. I believe that when Luthien chose mortality she lost her Elven and Maia self. The half-elven background of Elrond and Elros would have come from Idril and Nimloth (wife of Dior).

    If there was any elven or maia makeup left in him, which I doubt, it would have been very diluted over so many generations. I believe that, like Aragorn in his time, Elendil was the best of the race of Man. True to Iluvatar and perhaps somewhat blessed as a result. Like you said it was the combined effort that brought Sauron down.
    The Line of Kings is notably different even from other Numenoreans, even as Radhruin has noted. They have additional abilities and qualities that are apparently derived from their genetic heritage--an ecen longer lifespan than a "regular" Numenorean, the aforementioned healing ability and a strength of will greater than other men--Aragorn is able to contest with Sauron for the "possession" of the Palantir of Orthanc and WIN. He overcame a Maia in a contest of wills--granted that he was aided in this contest by his "right" to the Palantir as King--but that is also a result of his heritage.

    While the Kings ARE mortal--in that they have the Gift of Men--they are not the same as other Men in other respects. Elendil would likely have been at least as "powerful" as Aragorn (likely more so as he was closer to the source, genetically).

  14. #39
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    I think Tolkien left this, like other things (Bombadil, for instance), left for the imagination to work out. It may have been left as a nondescript "throwing down" because there seemed to be few witnesses of the struggle, that the actual mechanic by which Sauron was overthrown was never witnessed or recorded, or even mentioned at all by those who saw it because the event was too traumatic. In any case, the important thing is not the mechanic by which he was overthrown, but rather that he was in fact overthrown. Peter Jackson's interpretation is, of course, just an interpretation.

  15. #40
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    It was stated that the nine were made invisible by their rings.

    I do not believe that to be the case. They were visible while living men but over the eons their bodies eventually gave out and flesh withered, albeit very slowly, and they turned into wraiths (the Nazgul). After that to appear in the visible realm they had to wear clothing. I further believe that that is why, for the hobbits to turn invisible is a little less troubling. some might say; 'why did their clothes turn invisible but clothes on the ring-wraiths make them appear as though visible?' One must remember that while the nine wore rings of power, they were lesser rings and the ring that granted invisibility (and perhaps granted is not the right word as they did not seem to have a choice whether they vanished or not) to the hobbits was the One Ring, the ruling ring.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duathrandir View Post
    some might say; 'why did their clothes turn invisible but clothes on the ring-wraiths make them appear as though visible?'
    Having become wraiths, the Nazgul had become permanently invisible and distanced from the visible world in a very creepy way (they now firmly belonged to the realm of the Unseen) and most importantly, they didn't wear their rings any more. Sauron had them in his keeping.

  17. #42
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    Ah, thank you. That has a ring of truth to it (no pun intended). can you tell me about where in Prof.T's writings that can be found? ie; appendices, LotR, etc.

 

 
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