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  1. #1
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    Just how did Sauron lose the Ring at the Battle of Dagorlad?

    This is from The Fellowship of the Ring: (Elrond speaking in Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond)

    `I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host. I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery: for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.'
    This states that Sauron was overthrown, and that Isildur cut the Ring from his hand.

    I know what Jackson depicts in the film; Isildur swinging wildly with the remainder of Narsil and, by chance, hitting Sauron's hand, then several fingers (along with the Ring) go flying.

    The quote above implies (to me) something different.
    I always pictured Sauron being held down and the Ring (along with one finger) being purposely cut from his hand.

    I have not read all of HOME nor all of the Letters.

    Is this explained further in those works?
    Is it explained somewhere in one of the canon works and I am just forgetting it?
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    The Silamrillion goes into greater detail of that battle, describing it as a siege that lasted for 7 years before Sauron was forced into battle, and it implicates that Sauron was actually defeated before he lost the ring. So you may be correct in your interpretation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boraxxe View Post
    This states that Sauron was overthrown, and that Isildur cut the Ring from his hand.
    Yup. Never mind the movie

    I don't know why people don't get the idea of Isildur cutting Sauron's finger off to claim the Ring, when that's a typical means of taking a ring as loot from a dead adversary. The other bit that goes with this is how Isildur said he was taking it as weregild for his dead father and brother (see 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age' in the Sil).

    What strikes me about that is that it seems a rather uncivilised notion for a Numenorean to entertain - it's like he's harking back to his wilder Edain ancestors. And using what was left of the Sword of Kings to cut the Ring free, that was an ignoble use to which to put his father's sword, and it all suggests unseemly haste to claim this prize for himself. We know why, of course

  4. #4
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    Thank you, Radhruin, I found that passage:

    Then Gil-galad and Elendil passed into Mordor and encompassed the stronghold of Sauron; and they laid siege to it for seven years, and suffered grievous loss by fire and by the darts and bolts of the Enemy, and Sauron sent many sorties against them. There in the valley of Gorgoroth Anárion son of Elendil was slain, and many others. But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.
    And then, another paragraph later:

    The Ruling Ring passed out of the knowledge even of the Wise in that age; yet it was not unmade. For Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Círdan who stood by. They counselled him to cast it into the fire of Orodruin nigh at hand, in which it had been forged, so that it should perish, and the power of Sauron be for ever diminished, and he should remain only as a shadow of malice in the wilderness. But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: ‘This I will have as were-gild for my father's death, and my brothers. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?'
    I would truly enjoy reading more of this encounter.
    Perhaps Tolkien left it somewhat vague so that the readers would need to create visions of this combat for themselves.
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    I've still not forgiven PJ for leaving the siege out. We know Sauron wasn't a greatest physical combatant, the films make it look like he just ran out into the fray to get himself killed...

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    And using what was left of the Sword of Kings to cut the Ring free, that was an ignoble use to which to put his father's sword, and it all suggests unseemly haste to claim this prize for himself. We know why, of course
    I've always imagined him seeing a glint of the Ring as Sauron was lying/staggering around and it being one of those "time stands still" moments. He saw it and thought "I'm having that!". The nearest thing to hand was the hilt-shard, so that's what he used.
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    Others have helped you about how it went, I'll just comment on this bit...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boraxxe View Post
    --- I know what Jackson depicts in the film; Isildur swinging wildly with the remainder of Narsil and, by chance, hitting Sauron's hand, then several fingers (along with the Ring) go flying.---
    "(Sauron) has only four (fingers) on the Black Hand, but they are enough," said Gollum shuddering. (The Two Towers, 'The Black Gate is Closed')

    Far as I'm concerned, that speaks for Sauron being on the ground, Isildur not acting haphazardly enough to cut more than 'needed'.

    Though far as Isildur's actions are concerned... The guy'd just lost his father, and his brother. He was shell-shocked, more or less, I'd imagine. Higher ideals have given way to baser lusts for less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daeross View Post
    "(Sauron) has only four (fingers) on the Black Hand, but they are enough," said Gollum shuddering. (The Two Towers, 'The Black Gate is Closed')
    I always took this to mean that losing the "Ring finger" was such a trauma that he was unable to "regenerate" it in any later forms. He lost his entire body in the battle but was able to bring one together, just not that finger.

    I don't know if that means that he only had that one cut off, or that because it was the Ring finger he was (somewhat symbolically) unable to "grow" a new one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curandhras View Post
    I've always imagined him seeing a glint of the Ring
    I imagine it'd have been hard to miss, as the heat of Sauron's Black Hand meant that the Ring was red-hot (Isildur burnt his hand really badly when he carelessly seized hold of it, and wrote afterwards that it had been as hot as a glede, a live coal) so you can imagine the fire-writing on it would have been glowing especially fiercely. It was 'piercingly bright' after only a short spell in the fire at Bag End, when the Ring wasn't even warm to the touch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    I imagine it'd have been hard to miss.
    Ah, this is true. Maybe in the heat of the battle though he didn't notice it for what it was* or it was somehow obscured by armour/hilt etc.

    (The above roughly translates to: Don't ruin my dreams!)


    *Edit: That is to say, wasn't able to observe it with enough concentration or dedication that it could begin to "work its magic" on him. If he'd truly recognised it for what it really was everything would have gone far better for everyone in the years to follow...
    Last edited by Curandhras; Sep 12 2012 at 06:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curandhras View Post
    I've always imagined him seeing a glint of the Ring as Sauron was lying/staggering around and it being one of those "time stands still" moments. He saw it and thought "I'm having that!". The nearest thing to hand was the hilt-shard, so that's what he used.
    Sauron defeated Gil-Galad.
    Sauron defeated Elendil.
    Isildur Defeated Sauron.
    [Raid]Isildur: 'That loot is mine!'
    [Raid]Elrond: 'NO we will roll for it'
    Isildur has acquired [The One Ring]
    [Raid]Elrond: 'You just picked up a BoA item you can't even use'
    [Raid]Elrond: 'Not cool you loot-stealer'
    [Raid]Isildur: 'Hey I got the kb!'
    Elrond has left your raid.
    [Kinship]Elrond: 'Ugh what a jerk. That's the last time I'm grouping with Mankind. What an awful kin anyway'
    [Kinship]Cirdan: 'Great we were supposed to destroy the Ring to complete the Defeat Sauron deed'

    A summary of the last battle of the Siege of Barad-Dur.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunt123 View Post
    A summary of the last battle of the Siege of Barad-Dur.
    :lol:

    You missed the: Your [Narsil] is badly damaged!
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  12. #12
    I always found this part of the history problematic. You have a 7 year siege of Barad-Dur--the culminating event of the siege is the combat between Sauron and the leaders of the Alliance, but this duel occurs on the slopes of Mt Doom, which is about 30 miles away?

    How did Sauron get there? Why was he there? It is obviously a more dramatic location with the potential for easy destruction of the Ring (which Isildur refuses), but it makes no real logical sense.

    I have always had a very specific visual picture of the combat which bears no resemblance to the PJ version. It is obviously not a formal combat as it is 3 or more vs 1 (even though that 1 is Sauron, he isn't actually much of a fighter from what we have seen) and Sauron certainly (in my mind) looks nothing like PJs version... especially given the fact that the heat of his body is enough to heat the Ring and to kill Gil-Galad.

    Maybe it was a chase, Sauron and a small company breaking out of BD and running for it, brought to ground at Orodruin for some reason. The pursuers cut down his bodyguard and manage to severely wound/disable Sauron (losing Elendil and Gil-Galad in the process) and Isildur delivers the death blow and takes the Ring.

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    It seems to me if Saurons spirit could bear the one ring up from the depths of Numenor then the lucky shot theorey that Isildur separated Sauron from the ring has more credence than the Sauron is beaten and falls over, then the ring is cut from him theorey, otherwise why didnt Saurons disembodied spirit bear the ring away a second time?.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morthaur View Post
    It seems to me if Saurons spirit could bear the one ring up from the depths of Numenor then the lucky shot theorey that Isildur separated Sauron from the ring has more credence than the Sauron is beaten and falls over, then the ring is cut from him theorey, otherwise why didnt Saurons disembodied spirit bear the ring away a second time?.
    These are not 'theories'. The first is just what happened in the movie, the second what Tolkien actually said.

    'But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own.'

    - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

    Thrown down first, Ring cut off second. As I see it, he didn't get chance to recover from the shock of being 'killed' before Isildur cut the Ring from his hand

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    These are not 'theories'. The first is just what happened in the movie, the second what Tolkien actually said.

    'But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own.'

    - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

    Thrown down first, Ring cut off second. As I see it, he didn't get chance to recover from the shock of being 'killed' before Isildur cut the Ring from his hand
    I see so how did he locate his hand to cut off the finger if Sauron was invisable?.

    Gandalf speaking on p79 of Felloship of the ring
    "It was Gil-Galad, Elven king and Elendil of Westernesse who overthrew Sauron, though they themselves perished in the deed; and Isildur Elendil's son cut the ring from Sauron's hand and took it for his own. then Sauron was vanquished, and his spirit fled and was hidden for long years"

    The "killing" and the vanquishing and spirit departing happen after Isildur removes the finger, overthrown could mearly mean knocked over, your quote from the Silmarillion states that Gil-Galad and Elendil "wrestled" with Sauron no doubt as he was invisable, in all other cases of wrestling to subdue a foe that Tolkien uses ie Celebrimbor and Hurin, the grappling was to subdue the openent because arms could not complete the job. Are you suggesting that Sauron died as a resault of being "wrestled" and overthrown was some sort of judo throw?. On careful re-reading the literal scenario is a mix of the two theories that Gil Galad and Elendil Wrestled Sauron to the ground, possibly their dead bodies pinning him there, if Isildur was wrestling aswell the only wepon at hand was the broken hilt of Narsil (otherwise why did he not use his own sword or dagger?), perhaps touch or perhaps the position of the bodies of the defeated kings gave the invasible Sauron context, or perhaps invisability left Sauron along his consciesness enabling Isildur to locate his hand and vanquish Sauron.
    Last edited by Morthaur; Sep 24 2012 at 04:57 AM.
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  16. #16
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    Wrestling is the natural progression of any melee combat where the participants on both sides become too tired/injured or lack the required skill to overpower one and other through skill and weapons alone. Just because they grappled doesn't mean it descended into WWF nonsense. As far as I've always interpreted it Sauron was cast down (read beaten) by the combined efforts only for Isildur to hack the Ring off with the remnants of Narsil in the aftermath.

    Sauron had just had his physical form beaten (probably crippled too) by the combined force of the kings of yore. I doubt he'd instantly be able to snap to his senses and whisk the Ring away in spiritual form. Isildur's hasty selection of his dad's broken blade suggests there was very little time between the "climax" of the battle and Isildur removing the Ring.
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    Reading through the posts here a few things occurred to me that I hadn't really considered much before. I am going on what I recall so I could be wrong.

    I seem to remember it being said, maybe by Gandalf, that the One Ring would give power to the wielder according to their stature. So the ring worked differently on different beings. I don't think the books say what actually happens when Sauron wields the One Ring. He is a Maiar, and not subject to the same rules as mortals. Also, Sauron created the ring himself, so it stands to reason he might have had more control over what effects it had.

    As far as the descriptions of the siege and battle I don't recall whether or not it was stated that Sauron was visible or not. I think it's possible that if the ring did give him that ability then he had control over it and could choose to be visible or not. As to why he might wish to stay visible during the fight, I would suggest he was simply arrogant and prideful and wanted to show that he could go toe to toe with the best of them. Sauron probably wanted to make a show for the surrounding troops and being visible was more effective.
    Last edited by bambubambubambu; Sep 24 2012 at 08:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morthaur View Post
    I see so how did he locate his hand to cut off the finger if Sauron was invisable?.
    The Ring didn't make Sauron invisible, that's why. As one of the Ainur he already existed in both realms (the Seen and the Unseen) at once.

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    Ringwraiths could be spotted when robed; Sauron would have been hard to miss as he seemed to be a giant in armor, even though "invisible". But he wasn't invisible either, he merely lost the ability to change forms after his body was destroyed in Numenor.

    As for the Ring, it had a part of Sauron in it, and thus only Sauron could be its true master. Removing Sauron's influence from the Ring is like removing evil from the world (Arda being Morgoth's Ring and all), which is not possible (Arda Marred and all)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunt123 View Post
    Ringwraiths could be spotted when robed; Sauron would have been hard to miss as he seemed to be a giant in armor, even though "invisible". But he wasn't invisible either, he merely lost the ability to change forms after his body was destroyed in Numenor.
    This is not much of an answer considering Frodo and Bilbo's clothes turned invisible. Unless the ring doesn't normally make people invisible and was only enhancing natural hobbit stealth to the point it worked that way for those two?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunt123 View Post
    Ringwraiths could be spotted when robed; Sauron would have been hard to miss as he seemed to be a giant in armor, even though "invisible". But he wasn't invisible either, he merely lost the ability to change forms after his body was destroyed in Numenor.---
    Slight correction: he lost the ability to take on a 'fair shape' in the eyes of Men after Númenórë sank.

    For me, that meant just that ever afterwards he was terrible to look upon, though his shape might have changed. Losing the Ring robbed him enough of his might and power that it took him a good long while to pull himself back together... and then, as is my opinion, he'd have lacked the power change with as much freedom as he had with the Ring.

    But that's just my take on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Torweld View Post
    This is not much of an answer considering Frodo and Bilbo's clothes turned invisible. Unless the ring doesn't normally make people invisible and was only enhancing natural hobbit stealth to the point it worked that way for those two?
    The way I understand it, Sauron - being the true master of the Ring - can choose whether or not he wants to be invisible when wearing the Ring. It is not "forced" upon him, like it was with Frodo and Bilbo. I don't think it has anything to do with natural hobbit stealth. However, I'm not completely sure about that, as the only other person I can remember the Ring made invisible was Sméagol, who was "hobbit-like" in appearance in his early days (the text might even have said his people was a distant relative to the hobbit, but I don't remember for sure) and may therefore have the same abilities as a hobbit.

    In other words, I think the invisibility is the most visible (for lack of a better word) effect the Ring has on a wearer who does not master the Ring's abilities. Longevity is another, and greed (for the Ring). Only the Lord of the Ring can control these abilities and wield it to its fullest power - and, most importantly, without eventually being corrupted by it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning_Star View Post
    The way I understand it, Sauron - being the true master of the Ring - can choose whether or not he wants to be invisible when wearing the Ring. It is not "forced" upon him, like it was with Frodo and Bilbo. I don't think it has anything to do with natural hobbit stealth. However, I'm not completely sure about that, as the only other person I can remember the Ring made invisible was Sméagol, who was "hobbit-like" in appearance in his early days (the text might even have said his people was a distant relative to the hobbit, but I don't remember for sure) and may therefore have the same abilities as a hobbit.

    In other words, I think the invisibility is the most visible (for lack of a better word) effect the Ring has on a wearer who does not master the Ring's abilities. Longevity is another, and greed (for the Ring). Only the Lord of the Ring can control these abilities and wield it to its fullest power - and, most importantly, without eventually being corrupted by it.
    Well, Sauron wouldn't be corrupted by the ring because the "corrupting force" of the ring IS Sauron's embedded spirit within it. Also, as it was said before, Sauron wouldn't turn invisible any more than Tom Bombadil did. The ring wasn't an invisibility ring, it was a ring of power and it gave power according to the wearer's measure. For a hobbit that might mean the power to walk in the realm of the "unseen". For Sauron... well, he ALREADY walks in both realms AND he has a lot more intrinsic power so the outcome would be very different

    But anyway, the way I've always read the progression of things was as follows:
    -For seven years the Last Alliance laid siege to Mordor (sort of a stalemate scenario because Mordor probably couldn't be fully enclosed, much like the siege of Thangorodim in the first age)

    -The allied forces forced their way in, which in turn forced Sauron to come out to fight (side-note: Why are people saying he wasn't much of a fighter? He killed a high elf AND a numenorean. His spirit was of the same line as Balrogs, which were more than a match for any elf but certain elves such as Glorfindel DID single-handedly defeat a balrog. So I'd say taking on (and killing) a high elf and a numenorean mano-a-mano is quite a feat for a spirit of his potency, even if he gets knocked out in the end)

    -The BODY of Sauron is defeated, but his SPIRIT is still alive. In time, the body would heal and so Sauron would be back to normal.

    -Isildur seizes the moment and, due to either convenience or a feeling for poetic justice, he uses Narsil to remove the ring... and the finger

    -The SPIRIT of Sauron is defeated, and it takes him years to regroup from THAT blow.
    Last edited by Ealdwine; Sep 25 2012 at 06:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ealdwine View Post
    Well, Sauron wouldn't be corrupted by the ring because the "corrupting force" of the ring IS Sauron's embedded spirit within it. Also, as it was said before, Sauron wouldn't turn invisible any more than Tom Bombadil did. The ring wasn't an invisibility ring, it was a ring of power and it gave power according to the wearer's measure. For a hobbit that might mean the power to walk in the realm of the "unseen". For Sauron... well, he ALREADY walks in both realms AND he has a lot more intrinsic power so the outcome would be very different

    But anyway, the way I've always read the progression of things was as follows:
    -For seven years the Last Alliance laid siege to Mordor (sort of a stalemate scenario because Mordor probably couldn't be fully enclosed, much like the siege of Thangorodim in the first age)

    -The allied forces forced their way in, which in turn forced Sauron to come out to fight (side-note: Why are people saying he wasn't much of a fighter? He killed a high elf AND a numenorean. His spirit was of the same line as Balrogs, which were more than a match for any elf but certain elves such as Glorfindel DID single-handedly defeat a balrog. So I'd say taking on (and killing) a high elf and a numenorean mano-a-mano is quite a feat for a spirit of his potency, even if he gets knocked out in the end)

    -The BODY of Sauron is defeated, but his SPIRIT is still alive. In time, the body would heal and so Sauron would be back to normal.

    -Isildur seizes the moment and, due to either convenience or a feeling for poetic justice, he uses Narsil to remove the ring... and the finger

    -The SPIRIT of Sauron is defeated, and it takes him years to regroup from THAT blow.
    This is along the lines of what I was thinkin' too. The ring worked differently depending on who was wearing it. Also, Isildur used the ring briefly and it turned him invisible although it slipped from his finger and he was slain once visible again. And Isildur weren't no hobbitses...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torweld View Post
    This is not much of an answer considering Frodo and Bilbo's clothes turned invisible. Unless the ring doesn't normally make people invisible and was only enhancing natural hobbit stealth to the point it worked that way for those two?
    The Ring did not turn anyone "invisible", but made them visible only in the "Unseen" world. This world was seen only be the dead and the beings which have seen the Light of Aman, and those wearing a Magic Ring.

    That said, there were beings, like Tom Bombadil, who did not turn invisible after wearing the Ring. Only Mortals turn invisible when they wear a Great Ring (as did the Nazgul, but not the Elves who were immortal, and strangely the Dwarves). Sauron was immortal.

 

 
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