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  1. #26
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    If anyone here thinks that the developers are going to let "the public at large" have a seat at the design table... think again. Design By Committee absolutely sucks - far, far worse than even Design By Introspection, as long as the designer has two brain cells to rub together. What they will do is to run their changes first past their fellow developers, then past their QA testers for early testing, then past the players on Palantir and more QA testing. That's where changes can be made, for the most part. Bullroarer often gets a shot at seeing things before they're released to live too, but by then it's too late to make any large course corrections - that's really the last place where crippling defects can be found and fixed.

    Besides, I'm not sure that even blogging about upcoming changes would make all that much difference, because what matters is how it works in detail, and you can only understand that clearly by playing with them. Again, that's what Palantir is for. When people have just some written information about upcoming changes, it becomes a Rorschach test - people see what they hope or expect to see, not what actually is. I learned that the hard way in my design work on user interfaces.

    If ZC were to blog about upcoming changes, I can absolutely guarantee that people would run with all sorts of speculation about what it meant, how it would play out in practice. Some would be convinced it would be completely awesome, while others would be convinced it would ruin the game. Neither would have any real clue what they were talking about until they'd tried it out themselves, first-hand, for days - in various situations. Now, that sort of information might make some folks feel ​better, but I'm not at all convinced it would be useful for the developers.

    Khafar
    Last edited by Khafar; Aug 25 2012 at 12:29 PM.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    I spent the better part of the past 12 years in various Turbine NDA programs, and there tends to be more interaction between players and developers there. I'm not currently in LOTRO's NDA program, and have no plans to be at this point, but that's been true in the programs I've participated in.

    Why is that? Basically, two reasons:
    1. Feedback tends to be more "on point" for what the developer is working on... if they've made changes to Hunter, they'll go to the forums and ask people for feedback on what works well, what doesn't, and why.
    2. Participants are required to be civil and constructive, and those who refuse to be will be ejected from the program.
    Lots of people are capable of providing solid, constructive feedback - even when they're being critical - and inside an NDA program, they don't have to deal with the obnoxious jerks (for long). If I were in their shoes, I'd be spending my time interacting with players in there too.

    Khafar
    The feedback is more on point because the dev is giving them more information on what he plans to do and directing his hunters in the NDA to look at that specific area. This will of course give him great information but only as it pretains to the direction he sends them in.

    ZC says hey guys and gals we are going to put in a melee hutner stance flesh this baby out. What will they need to be successful? What changes need to be made, what issue might we have. Given a focused area they can and will do a great job of just that. The hunters in the NDA are pouring over numbers and skills and getting things ready for what looks to be a great addition to the hunter line so they are all for it. Then a week to update he tells them it will be going in for blue line...... you just worked your tail off and are you going to tell the boss umm... that is the raid stance... no most people will drink the coolaide.

    Or .. ZC we have a problem with this it is the raid line, hunters kind of need that. Yeah I know but one line had to go and we will make changes X,Y and Z to red line to help with that, but not at release. Hunters wil need to suffer 3-6 months but there is nothing I can do about it and they will be much better off after that with new utility and play. So the NDA people who know the path which is being taken accept this and move on.... meanwhile back in the jungle the lord of the flies hunters who have no information on any of this are screaming kill the pig and drink its blood.

    That is the danger of comparmentalizing information. To some who got to see the whole book this isn't an issue to those who read three paragraphs of chapter 7 well we don't know if it is a love story, a sci fi novel, or a horror story. Without basic communication there is the fear of the unknown. What good or bad things are in store for us. When information is given like directives... hunters will get an aggro skill now... ok good... it will be b/p/e proof.... damn even better (hunter begins to drool) ... but only against mobs your level... facepalm..... ummm we need aggro control for boss fights... they are above our level so we can still miss with the aggro skill we were given. That means hunters can still wipe raids beacuse we cannot actively control our aggro like the other dps classes can and puts hunters at a disadvantage. On paper it looks good in practice not so much. You mean hunters in the NDA program didn't notice it?

    Tydalmir
    Last edited by Tinluen; Aug 25 2012 at 12:43 PM.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Question: if you were a developer and sticking your head up out of the bunker so you can be pelted with rocks weren't mandatory, would you be posting in the Hunter Forum? Be honest. I gave up on reading it several years ago, let alone posting there. And I'm not even a target for the chronically unhappy.

    Should Turbine have someone who stands up and takes a pounding? Maybe. But they'd be in customer relations, not development. The developers can get the feedback they need by A) lurking in the Hunter forum, and perhaps B) posting in the NDA forums, where people are required to be constructive and civil. I certainly would.

    Khafar
    Hear hear, I have a hunter and I don't bother with it any more. Endless QQ, grandstanding, over-emotive posts, wild off-the-wall speculation, insults.....it's a bad place.

    Apparently this tactic is used because "hunters are being ignored". Seems obvious to me that as a tactic it's a total failure. Maybe trying civil reasoned discussion would work, but don't post that on the hunter forums you'll disappear under a wave of bile and hysteria.
    Last edited by Damojo; Aug 25 2012 at 01:14 PM.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    If anyone here thinks that the developers are going to let "the public at large" have a seat at the design table... think again. Design By Committee absolutely sucks - far, far worse than even Design By Introspection
    Khafar, this is pretty much escaping into some dychotomy on too general level. No one one asked to be a "comittee" or to have some other "Judean People's Design Front". Try to imagine something between mini-PR failure that was entire pre-RoI period for this class and proper, sometimes even inspiring, examples provided by other Devs (already present on these forums!) - unless you treat them as "design by comittee" as well. It's not about "how you design things" (although I imagine you *have to* have some general outcome in mind before even touching tools, so you HAVE something to share, more than embarassing one - liner), it's how you can handle communicating various ideas without antagonizing people not just through your idea but also because... see: specific examples.

    This horse that was beaten to death before it was even alive but how about this: if we can rest assured that professional level of Palantir feedback is so much better than miasma depression from class forums, who is willing to come out and say "uh, it's me, I was the one who said Hunter's Art bonuses were fine without actually checking the numbers!". Or even better: "no, no, this skill was awesome THEN, it gave actual power regeneration and stuff! Something happened lastminute, really!". This could be easily explained by general "Pits of Iron" polish level of RoI, devs working with some ridiculous deadlines no human could handle, but even then: not every-frikkin-thing, not general failure of two skills per three - and then not a single word about what went wrong and even IF something went wrong until December. ZC asked for ideas sligthly before... 2011 ended. The other official confirmation something was not WAI with both HA and SS were changes for RoR, where both were finally addressed - and even now one fix is called "Improved" as if "not Improved" was suddenly working fine. Was it, really? Just like Improved Penetrating Shot was not fixing some awful mistakes of Penetrating Shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    If ZC were to blog about upcoming changes, I can absolutely guarantee that people would run with all sorts of speculation about what it meant, how it would play out in practice. Some would be convinced it would be completely awesome, while others would be convinced it would ruin the game. Neither would have any real clue what they were talking about until they'd tried it out themselves, first-hand, for days - in various situations. Now, that sort of information might make some folks feel ​better, but I'm not at all convinced it would be useful for the developers.
    I must ask about this: are you really familiar with this *specific* debacle? Because what you are describing feels exactly like what happened in terms of wild speculation. The problem is, much was dominated - and understandably - by negativity. Look at later revelation when it was already "killed" - can you honestly imagine it wouldn't work much better to share THIS version instead? What is the point of your "useful for developers" when 15 minutes of typing in some decent sentences could make a difference between angry mob and mob busy arguing among themselves about "how can we make this specific idea work"? So little effort is already too much for you? And then later... am I supposed to imagine initial week of Live, Beta, Palantir and whatever Silmaril there is was not enough to gather data and come to a startling conclusion: "it is not working"? This entire year can't be excused in any way - and suggesting better communication means letting unwashed masses into Dev cubicle is not working either.
    Last edited by Ferthcott; Aug 25 2012 at 02:00 PM.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Damojo View Post
    Hear hear, I have a hunter and I don't bother with it any more. Endless QQ, grandstanding, over-emotive posts, wild off-the-wall speculation, insults.....it's a bad place.

    Apparently this tactic is used because "hunters are being ignored". Seems obvious to me that as a tactic it's a total failure. Maybe trying civil reasoned discussion would work, but don't post that on the hunter forums you'll disappear under a wave of bile and hysteria.
    I can see your point about hunter forums. Here is the thing the hunter class is based on dps.. we need to compete for spots in groups and raids based on our dps. So we really are competing with burgs, champs and rks. So we get very worked up when dps is brought up. A reduction to our dps effects us more than the other classes. Champs have heavy armor and AOE to fall back on with their survival and aggro skills they are still valuable. Rks can dps and heal to a good extent. Burgs can debuff and CC along with the stacking dps. So hunters can CC but the drop off on the dps to do so will be significant enough that we will gain or lose a spot not as dps toon but support. LMS and burgs can do just as well in this and offer extras. So for hunters dps is our ticket in the door. I have a warden and know the hostility between what guards get and wardens get have boiled over a few times as well. ANY class that has its main meal ticket threatened gets defensive and agressive. QQ look at wardens for that and the changes they NEEDED to fulfill their roles again as tanks. How are hunters different? Blue line is our raid line lets hit guardians where they live and see if they don't get a bit unruly. I am not excusing the bad behavior, but to say hunters are radical while my class is not is not true either. No other class on either side, freep or creep, has seen more nerfs then hunters. This is true and everyone knows it. The hammer falls on us faster and harder than most to keep us "in line" with other classes. We are a gun shy easily spooked bunch, but for good reason. Point all the fingers at the crazy hunters you want, but we are not different than other classes in responses to threats to our main function in this game.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    The feedback is more on point because the dev is giving them more information on what he plans to do and directing his hunters in the NDA to look at that specific area. This will of course give him great information but only as it pretains to the direction he sends them in.
    This is silly. The players naturally provide wider feedback than just what the developer asked for, and they have virtually all of the same perspectives represented in their NDA program as are represented out here. Sometimes, feedback in there isn't acted on either, for one reason or other... it's too late to make changes of that scope, what the players are asking for is too much in conflict with Turbine's business plan, whatever. But I know first-hand from 3+ years in the program that lots and lots of changes do get made based on that feedback.

    The bottom line is that posting in public is not mandatory for developers, and it shouldn't be (if you want them to continue working for you, that is). As a result, few will do so - and even fewer will do so long-term. They're often not very good a "PR", and they often get pounded if they actually tell people the truth. (Of course, they often get pounded if they use careful/vague language too, so it's just not a grand experience for them either way... it's little wonder that few keep on interacting with the public for more than a year or two).

    The one place where they can have a reasonable set of interactions with players is inside the NDA programs, and even though I haven't been in one for a couple of years now... I expect that continues.

    Khafar
    Last edited by Khafar; Aug 25 2012 at 02:22 PM.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    but only against mobs your level... facepalm..... ummm we need aggro control for boss fights... they are above our level so we can still miss with the aggro skill we were given. That means hunters can still wipe raids beacuse we cannot actively control our aggro like the other dps classes can and puts hunters at a disadvantage. On paper it looks good in practice not so much. You mean hunters in the NDA program didn't notice it?
    Bah, I still disagree with this line of thinking :P Every class has issues with +level mobs in raids and there are various disasters this particular issue can cause. We are better of if devs are either dealing with the problem on general level - or are not dealing with it at all so we cal all share the pain and feel so equal

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    The bottom line is that posting in public is not mandatory for developers, and it shouldn't be. As a result, few will do so - and even fewer will do so long-term. They're often not very good a "PR", and they often get pounded if they actually tell people the truth. (Of course, they often get pounded if they use careful/vague language too, so it's just not a grand experience for them either way... it's little wonder that few keep on interacting with the public for more than a year or two).
    I might be mistaken, but Turbine apparently has people who are paid to do the exact thing you just described and to do it professionally in their place if they feel bad. Or to clean up on aisle four. So how's that working out?

    And as for "there are evil people there" - it works well as an excuse, until you figure out that there must be something wrong with your "requirements" if hardly anyone is even bothering to defend your ideas, with various great posters I used to learn from vanishing over time, often declaring disgust - and no, not about "evil people". As long as you have tools (or someone else to use them for you) dealing with people and general level of that interaction is your partial responsibility, period.

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferthcott View Post
    Bah, I still disagree with this line of thinking :P Every class has issues with +level mobs in raids and there are various disasters this particular issue can cause. We are better of if devs are either dealing with the problem on general level - or are not dealing with it at all so we cal all share the pain and feel so equal
    I understand what you are saying but other dps toons can push the button and the aggro either disappers.. see hips, or goes somewhere ... to the tank .. champs. This works at ANY time and ALL the time. There is no maybe or what if or RNG chances they work .... period. Again treating one dps toon differently than the others is opening up the value question in raids or groups. Sure it will not happen often.. but it will happen and when it does it will not be opppss RNG it will be the hunter wiped the raid. Next time I bring a .... fill in the blank.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    This is silly. The players naturally provide wider feedback than just what the developer asked for, and they have virtually all of the same perspectives represented in their NDA program as are represented out here. Sometimes, feedback in there isn't acted on either, for one reason or other... it's too late to make changes of that scope, what the players are asking for is too much in conflict with Turbine's business plan, whatever. But I know first-hand from 3+ years in the program that lots and lots of changes do get made based on that feedback.

    The bottom line is that posting in public is not mandatory for developers, and it shouldn't be (if you want them to continue working for you, that is). As a result, few will do so - and even fewer will do so long-term. They're often not very good a "PR", and they often get pounded if they actually tell people the truth. (Of course, they often get pounded if they use careful/vague language too, so it's just not a grand experience for them either way... it's little wonder that few keep on interacting with the public for more than a year or two).

    The one place where they can have a reasonable set of interactions with players is inside the NDA programs, and even though I haven't been in one for a couple of years now... I expect that continues.

    Khafar
    So this is Gallop poll time... 1% or less representing the rest? There is no way you can honestly tell me that the 1% will act, look and react to the things the rest of us would. The limiting factor is the play nice factor... well some people don't have the people skills to do that yet know the character much better than the one let in because he or she plays nice. See it works for us just like the devs... people skills are not distributed evenly. So your representation is flawed. You have a yes man mentallity naturally built into the system whether you want to acknowlege it or not, it is there.

    No you can't have everyone having full access all the time the chaos would make it unworkable. But leaving out 99% of the player base gets you pretty much the same thing.. chaos in the ranks. There needs to be a middle ground ... there must be some give and take among the devs and testers and the community. Bob on the forums brought up an intresting problem with this skill... anyone here look at this? Ah... Lisa saw that too... jumps in forum yeah Bob we saw that too.. no detailed information given just an reassurance that yes we know about that and thanks for the heads up.

  11. #36
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    If you don't feel your views being represented in Palantir, you can always consider applying. They keep saying their community is small but diverse, and it's reasonable to assume that they do try and get as diverse a population they can so they can get the wide range of meaningful feedback that is vital to long-term development and growth for LotrO as a whole.

    Like it or not, players who can lose their NDA access are likely to remain much more civil and reasoned with their posts, even while disagreeing vehemently. It's just human nature that we're more likely to be civil when there's 'rules enforcement' to provide 'negative reinforcment' if we step out of line, especially when the price for or error is viewed as 'high' (such as permanent loss of access to the program)
    Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    I can see your point about hunter forums. Here is the thing the hunter class is based on dps.. we need to compete for spots in groups and raids based on our dps. So we really are competing with burgs, champs and rks. So we get very worked up when dps is brought up. A reduction to our dps effects us more than the other classes. Champs have heavy armor and AOE to fall back on with their survival and aggro skills they are still valuable. Rks can dps and heal to a good extent. Burgs can debuff and CC along with the stacking dps. So hunters can CC but the drop off on the dps to do so will be significant enough that we will gain or lose a spot not as dps toon but support. LMS and burgs can do just as well in this and offer extras. So for hunters dps is our ticket in the door. I have a warden and know the hostility between what guards get and wardens get have boiled over a few times as well. ANY class that has its main meal ticket threatened gets defensive and agressive. QQ look at wardens for that and the changes they NEEDED to fulfill their roles again as tanks. How are hunters different? Blue line is our raid line lets hit guardians where they live and see if they don't get a bit unruly. I am not excusing the bad behavior, but to say hunters are radical while my class is not is not true either. No other class on either side, freep or creep, has seen more nerfs then hunters. This is true and everyone knows it. The hammer falls on us faster and harder than most to keep us "in line" with other classes. We are a gun shy easily spooked bunch, but for good reason. Point all the fingers at the crazy hunters you want, but we are not different than other classes in responses to threats to our main function in this game.
    Ok one more post and I'm done, already left one forum section for this argument, I have no intention of leaving another.

    Reading your posts you are asking for meaningful, productive dialogue between us, the hunters (yes I have two) and dev/QA/customer services/turbine. That means we, as hunters, have a responsibility to keep the conversation civil, focussed, to retain its momentum and move the issue forward. We are not going to achieve this by hyperbole, hysteria, sweeping generalisations, flat out lies and insults. I suggest we start "behind the line" in this process, given the state of the forum, so WE as hunters need to move our position, not turbine.

    It doesn't matter what wardens think, or guardians, or champions. If the three classes want the same as each other so they may as well combine and stance dance for role, let them get on with it. It does not matter how much fuss they make or have made, that's their problem.

    It matters that we, the hunters, understand our class, our role, and where we want to be. Turbine will decide how far toward that ideal we are allowed to go, as part of their balance process. We have to be ready to respond to rejection with reasoned counter-argument and eventually acceptance, if that is what it takes. Not the commotion we have now. Not demands, but dialogue. Not tantrums, but reasoned discussion. And once we have an answer that all find acceptable, we have to show patience in waiting for implementation.

    I have by design not gone into which trait/stance/mitigation/nerf is causing the problem, as I think the issue is far wider. It is for us the hunters to decide what the real issues are, but we can't even speak with any harmony on that. A post entitled "RIP The Moors Hunter" might spell out how it is impossible to use the hunters on the moors, but you will find within that thread voices stating they are happy with the hunter in PvP. We bemoan our lack of DPS in raids, other classes bemoan our massive DPS and the aggro problems it causes. Is it broken, or not? Show us the parses, the kill/death stats. Facts, far more effective than emotions.

    The time to involve turbine is when we as a community know what we want. We as a community, not the same dozen loudest shouters. Whatever we want, it has to work for raiders, moors-hunters and solo PvE players alike, no playstyle is more important than the others, and the players overlap anyway. I cannot as a relatively new player with no link to WB/turbine guarantee that we will get a positive outcome from changing our way of working, I can 100% guarantee that carrying on in the same vein will not produce anything. Because human beings do not respond (in general) to abuse.

    And that is very much my last word on the subject. I enjoy both my hunters and will continue playing them. And I'd be happy to take part in a lively inclusive hunter forum. Trouble is, we don't have one.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferthcott View Post
    I might be mistaken, but Turbine apparently has people who are paid to do the exact thing you just described and to do it professionally in their place if they feel bad. Or to clean up on aisle four. So how's that working out?
    They have 2 full-time people who do customer relations and are authorized to speak for Turbine, and that's it. Would it be nice if they had more? Yep. The game is dirt cheap, though, and I don't really expect to see that anytime soon.

    there must be something wrong with your "requirements" if hardly anyone is even bothering to defend your ideas...
    Nonsense. I'm a developer. I don't do "PR", and anyone who asks me to soon discovers why. I do interact with select customers regularly, ones chosen to be representative of market segments we serve, but they're under NDA and understand that A) some of what they see isn't nearly a finished product, and B) we cannot and will not take their every suggestion. Still, they provide invaluable feedback. I'd never get my job done if I were a public figure for my company, and the company probably wouldn't like it much if I were either. Working with what amounts to "focus groups" is a reasonable compromise that's worked quite well for many years now. Not just for me, but for developers in tons of other companies/industries. Including games.

    I don't "defend" my company's ideas, because it isn't my job to do so. (And also because my customers tend to be professionals, not a distressing percentage of whiny/rude gamers). If our ideas need defending for some reason, we have marketing people, customer service people, and other people with public-facing jobs to do that. They collate that feedback and pass it along to the development team (sort of like Sapience and Celestrata do here).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    The limiting factor is the play nice factor... well some people don't have the people skills to do that yet know the character much better than the one let in because he or she plays nice.
    I've been a developer for 30 years, and have never once seen vital feedback offered only by major-league jerks. If the jerks are seeing a problem, so are the others using our product. The difference? The jerks usually just want to rant about stuff, while the "play nice" people often want to offer constructive suggestions.

    Khafar
    Last edited by Khafar; Aug 25 2012 at 03:23 PM.

  14. #39
    I offer a counter... if the dev feels uncomforable doing this then have palantir hunters do it. In EQ we had class representatives. The ranger class had three, the Necro class three... ect. these three were the go betweens. They were allowed to give out certain infromation only.. the player base knew this and if you asked something you knew they couldn't answer that was that .. sorry can't answer that. This way some information was let out and some suggestions let into the system. Give the reps TP points ... I have no problem with that.

    We want to work with the system.. sure we have our nut jobs.. I am one from time to time if a certain button gets pushed, but as a whole the hunters are in the dark. We don't know what is expected of us in the future or skills that are being worked on. The lack of communication caused this problem... neither side reacted well to the fallout. DPS is being increased across the board both in and out of the moors. Hunters are feeling like we are getting pushed further and futher away and are losing the one thing that recommends us to groups and raids.

    We would like some kind of relationship with those who have an idea where our dev wants to go with our class.

    Tydalmir

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Damojo View Post
    Ok one more post and I'm done, already left one forum section for this argument, I have no intention of leaving another.

    Reading your posts you are asking for meaningful, productive dialogue between us, the hunters (yes I have two) and dev/QA/customer services/turbine. That means we, as hunters, have a responsibility to keep the conversation civil, focussed, to retain its momentum and move the issue forward. We are not going to achieve this by hyperbole, hysteria, sweeping generalisations, flat out lies and insults. I suggest we start "behind the line" in this process, given the state of the forum, so WE as hunters need to move our position, not turbine.

    It doesn't matter what wardens think, or guardians, or champions. If the three classes want the same as each other so they may as well combine and stance dance for role, let them get on with it. It does not matter how much fuss they make or have made, that's their problem.

    It matters that we, the hunters, understand our class, our role, and where we want to be. Turbine will decide how far toward that ideal we are allowed to go, as part of their balance process. We have to be ready to respond to rejection with reasoned counter-argument and eventually acceptance, if that is what it takes. Not the commotion we have now. Not demands, but dialogue. Not tantrums, but reasoned discussion. And once we have an answer that all find acceptable, we have to show patience in waiting for implementation.

    I have by design not gone into which trait/stance/mitigation/nerf is causing the problem, as I think the issue is far wider. It is for us the hunters to decide what the real issues are, but we can't even speak with any harmony on that. A post entitled "RIP The Moors Hunter" might spell out how it is impossible to use the hunters on the moors, but you will find within that thread voices stating they are happy with the hunter in PvP. We bemoan our lack of DPS in raids, other classes bemoan our massive DPS and the aggro problems it causes. Is it broken, or not? Show us the parses, the kill/death stats. Facts, far more effective than emotions.

    The time to involve turbine is when we as a community know what we want. We as a community, not the same dozen loudest shouters. Whatever we want, it has to work for raiders, moors-hunters and solo PvE players alike, no playstyle is more important than the others, and the players overlap anyway. I cannot as a relatively new player with no link to WB/turbine guarantee that we will get a positive outcome from changing our way of working, I can 100% guarantee that carrying on in the same vein will not produce anything. Because human beings do not respond (in general) to abuse.

    And that is very much my last word on the subject. I enjoy both my hunters and will continue playing them. And I'd be happy to take part in a lively inclusive hunter forum. Trouble is, we don't have one.
    The points you make are spot on and I agree. There are outliers in any system. That is why a bell curve is a .. well a curve. Hear me out and I know you are done here. Much of what lies at the disfunction of the hunter is the craziness of the skill sets we are given... hunters are squishy... true how do you solve that ... 3 ways at least, boost their morale, boost their aggro management, boost their mits and armor... each one will serve to solve this one problem but you will get three equally correct veiwpoints on why or why not their way works best. Each will solve the problem but create others somewhere else.


    We know this so instead of arguing constantly a dev or rep can step in and say... well all three have been considered and we will go this way..... it will cause problems here and here but we will work on closing these gaps. The core of the hunter has drifted from what it was a sword and bow toon.... it happens but no clear vision has EVER come up to replace that core. We are floundering in skills and lines that fight with each other and counteract the thing they are meant to solve. The core of the hunter needs clear, well thought out lines... 3 lines built from a solid core. Each line giving an advantage in an area while having disadvantages in place to balance it. I don't want OP... most hunters don't. Causual players only see a river with a layer of solid ice. And if they step out on the edge they are ok... the further you go in the more the cracks appear. We need to fix the cracks the lines and skills need updating the legendaries are not really equal to the name. Do they work yes to a point but not the way other classes do. DPS is our lifeblood yet other classes have not only closed that gap but gone ahead. It hurts a one trick pony class that we have become. Most of our better hunters have hung up their bows.. gone away or have other toons because they too have seen this and nothing has been done. It won't happen in one quick fix. If a dev can explain to us where they want to go most will follow if the vision is clear. This is what we are asking for.

    Tydalmir
    Last edited by Tinluen; Aug 25 2012 at 04:09 PM.

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    They have 2 full-time people who do customer relations and are authorized to speak for Turbine, and that's it. Would it be nice if they had more? Yep. The game is dirt cheap, though, and I don't really expect to see that anytime soon.
    They also have moderators (see: aisle four). If there was so much abuse that is constantly alleged, they would need no excuse to throw so much infractions and as long as it takes for those "major-league jerks" to remember where that line they chose to ignore was. Instead, you have people pissed off by one more small factor: that it is apparently guessing game what is maximum of tolerable rageQQhysteria and minimum leghumping required by individual known only from few words but apparently able to communicate in other class forums as long as this quota is met. Sure, common sense and social graces are usually enough - but you won't get much common sense after pissing people off and ignoring it in some angry diva style. The funniest part: someone suggested to take the blame and sit quietly, perhaps type some nice posts and have generic tuxedo discussions, probably about how much they like the class and shooting orcs and then... it will be magically over, love and bunnies, everybody happy. Until another debacle after which we are told it's time to take the blame again. Why another debacle? Because no one learns from mistakes without admitting them - not necessarily by performing public self-crucifiction so it's not a nice excuse to do nothing instead.

    If anything, I expect it's more like waiting game: let another regiment of angry people get tired and (given retention level of this game) be slowly outnumbered by people for whom current state and current "norm" is WAI either because it is the only thing they saw since joining or because they didn't look for anything else than "generic tuxedo" mentioned above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Nonsense. I'm a developer. I don't do "PR", and anyone who asks me to soon discovers why.
    No one asks you to do it - but if you suddenly do, as many of Turbine devs do, some more often than others, some better than others - I expect you would want to do it well enough. How much fault would you be prepared to take for some rageQQhysteria after the same forums were (relatively) calm for months and months? None by default as well?



    Is what Orion does enough to be called PR? (it already is on functional level anyway)


    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    Causual players only see a river with a layer of solid ice. And if they step out on the edge they are ok... the further you go in the more the cracks appear.
    It's an interesting vision, though I should probably say "inbeforeelitist" given usual knee-jerk it causes. Don't forget about those Hunters in yachts passing by from time to time - probably representing those with either entire raid catering to them for no reason or the percentage of people who can afford the cost. At the same time you have other classes paying tiny fee to access the bridge. No wonder some of yacht owners prefer it this way, but having such ugly "middle" is one of the reasons it's not worth to bother with the class *too much*, "love & bunnies" and "out of sight out of mind" works better for the mood.
    Last edited by Ferthcott; Aug 25 2012 at 04:28 PM.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Question: if you were a developer and sticking your head up out of the bunker so you can be pelted with rocks weren't mandatory, would you be posting in the Hunter Forum? Be honest. I gave up on reading it several years ago, let alone posting there. And I'm not even a target for the chronically unhappy.

    Should Turbine have someone who stands up and takes a pounding? Maybe. But they'd be in customer relations, not development. The developers can get the feedback they need by A) lurking in the Hunter forum, and perhaps B) posting in the NDA forums, where people are required to be constructive and civil. I certainly would.

    Khafar
    Wow, congrats on an obnoxious and exceedingly ignorant post made in response to a very civil and well thought out statement from the OP. I wonder if your other 10k posts are equally irrelevant.

    I love playing a hunter. I'm not sure I feel I need some kind of goody bag from the devs for playing what I already consider to be the class with the most perks in the game, but I understand what the OP is saying. I don't really appreciate that they haven't fixed the fact that we have been nerfed to the point of uselessness in the moors, but that's not something I'm going to self-immolate over. I actually find myself looking forward to the hunter changes in RoR. I think there are other classes that need FAR more attention than we do.
    Last edited by Trusilver; Aug 25 2012 at 05:30 PM.

  18. #43
    Join Date
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    Whether or not you'll see posts in a given area depends on which specific developer(s) owns it, what their history has been, and whether they (still) think it's productive or not. A majority of developers never post a thing, and those who do rarely last more than a year or two in the public eye. It's not very difficult to guess why. Public interaction has a huge "burnout" factor that comes with it, and only a few (e.g. floon for 3+ years and Orion for more) seem to be able to hang in there long-term.

    Example: Hakai used to post quite a bit, back when he was Lead Combat Designer for SoA and then owner for the Champion and Guardian classes. But he was pounded on pretty relentlessly by players, and started posting less and less. Then rarely. Then not at all. Now he's working on a different (unannounced) project. It's a pretty common trajectory, and I could give a number of other similar examples.

    Khafar
    Last edited by Khafar; Aug 25 2012 at 07:53 PM.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakiami View Post
    The issue isn't broken skills or inconsistencies. You (loud obnoxious hunters) are not vilified for posting bugs or suggestions or defense theses. You (plural) are vilified for being loud obnoxious jerks. You're disregarded because of your (plural remember) sense of entitlement, your name-calling, your developer-denigrating (devs are people too, and you don't deserve to treat them any worse than your mother). You're marginalized because of how you present your arguments.

    I have a 75 hunter I consider my main, and I too have given up on reading most of the Hunter forum.

    P.S. he warned you.
    Gee, I pay for a game and heaven forbid I get some sort of sense of friggin' entitlement from it. I'm paying them my money for a product. Cripes, what was I thinking. That's not how the world works, I mean really you buy a hotdog from a street vendor who gets cross and throws you in front of a speeding cab if you happen to ask for ketchup. THAT'S how the world works.

    Oh, and as far as treating the devs worse then my mother, if I had a brother (Blackarrow) who's birthday (Expansion Upgrade) happen to fall on around the same day as mine, and yet my brother (Blackarrow, remember) had repeatedly gotten some of the good toys and name-brand clothes (skills) I'd have been asking for before the birthday while I was getting hand-me-downs from Goodwill and toys from the 99cents store, yet while they are putting on a facade about how I'm *so* much better off, you're damn right I'd be cross with both of them. And since Devs aren't my mother and Blackarrows aren't my brother, I could give a flip less how they're treated if they want to treat me like excrement they scraped off a boot.
    Last edited by Eckenbrand; Aug 26 2012 at 07:17 AM.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eckenbrand View Post
    Gee, I pay for a game and heaven forbid I get some sort of sense of friggin' entitlement from it. I'm paying them my money for a product. Cripes, what was I thinking. That's not how the world works, I mean really you buy a hotdog from a street vendor who gets cross and throws you in front of a speeding cab if you happen to ask for ketchup. THAT'S how the world works.

    Oh, and as far as treating the devs worse then my mother, if I had a brother (Blackarrow) who's birthday (Expansion Upgrade) happen to fall on around the same day as mine, and yet my brother (Blackarrow, remember) had repeatedly gotten some of the good toys and name-brand clothes (skills) I'd have been asking for before the birthday while I was getting hand-me-downs from Goodwill and toys from the 99cents store, yet while they are putting on a facade about how I'm *so* much better off, you're damn right I'd be cross with both of them. And since Devs aren't my mother and Blackarrows aren't my brother, I could give a flip less how they're treated if they want to treat me like excrement they scraped off a boot.
    its even worse if those toys from goodwill are broken

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Whether or not you'll see posts in a given area depends on which specific developer(s) owns it, what their history has been, and whether they (still) think it's productive or not. A majority of developers never post a thing, and those who do rarely last more than a year or two in the public eye. It's not very difficult to guess why. Public interaction has a huge "burnout" factor that comes with it, and only a few (e.g. floon for 3+ years and Orion for more) seem to be able to hang in there long-term.

    Example: Hakai used to post quite a bit, back when he was Lead Combat Designer for SoA and then owner for the Champion and Guardian classes. But he was pounded on pretty relentlessly by players, and started posting less and less. Then rarely. Then not at all. Now he's working on a different (unannounced) project. It's a pretty common trajectory, and I could give a number of other similar examples.

    Khafar
    this makes no sense whatsoever.

    burnout factor? do devs have 1hp like the squirrels in chetwood?

    get a grip people! its not like you have to take every complaint as a personal attack on your soul essence!

    some troll player tells a dev that they did a horrible job? ok, moving on.

    angry class people like eoburn throwing very harsh stuff at you? take the hit, ignore it if you want.

    entire community unhappy with you? explain what you did and try to make it better next time around.


    this turtle mentaility wont get them anywhere. the devs need to ether man up and be able to take some heat and not snap like a dry reed or hire a person who will take the heat for them. its just plain stupid to turtle up because it angers constomers who feel like their concerns are being tossed aside and overall degrades the game.

  22. #47
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    ZC has stated some time ago (maybe year/s) that feedback is nice, but it is much more valuable if there are numbers included in it. Some of us went the extra mile and provided all the numbers we could pull of from turbines lackluster combat log.

    Some went even further and made experiments to test threat management, real legacy influences (not vague "rank 3" info). I, and many others, spent hours on bullroarer and live servers to test crits, dev crits, crit legacies for every skill, every debuff, etc, to see whats up with our class.

    Pretty much everything was posted on these forums(part was on eu forums where we played before, if you think dev communication here is bad, you should have seen eu forums where DD made like one post per year), in excel sheets, google docs, graphs and what not.

    The feedback from our class dev was silence, and once per year we get "Class feedback thread" where customer support(not class dev) asks us what we think about our class. It is like a slap in the face, I mean come on there was great chunk of feedback on the class forum throughout the whole year without any response from officials.

    As for devs being unwilling to participate in forum discussions, it is a two edged sword. This is internet, if you don't have at least a bit thick skin you will have a bad time here. That is why there are forum moderators who should take care of useless and non-constructive posts when they occur in community-dev discussion. If players feel like they bug reports and feedback is not taken into account, and such state is going on for months/years, obviously it can cause some frustration. And frustration just leads to lesser quality of forum activity. I play Rift from time to time where class devs post on average once a week, and I don't see any behaviour from them where they hide because someone on the internet said something they don't like. They know there are customers who appreciate their comments and visibility on forums.

    More on testing. Plenty of hunters were happy when ZC said he will welcome feedback with numbers, but there was no way to acquire those numbers. Plenty of ingame skill descriptions are too vague, plenty of skill mechanics is hidden, etc. And when after years they gave us a band-aid in form of test dummies, they reset every 12s so again the tests are horribly uncomfortable to execute. I would have no problem to provide everything players/devs asked, if we were give the right tools to do it. But that time has passed, just as my passion for the game.
    Last edited by Fin.; Aug 26 2012 at 11:15 AM.

 

 
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