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  1. #1

    Customer service and the hunter

    Was wodering what hunters get for going a full year without a dev coming to our forums to talk to us about our characters? I mean a year is something special and while a multi million err.. billion dollar corp. can afford to spend a little extra on the class that has been ignored for a year. Only blue names I have seen were to close threads in which hunters were being rude... can you imagine some acutally being upset with not having contact about how their class is being developed, skills they might be getting, fixes ect..... some of these bad eggs were enough to get attention but not answers.

    What excuses will we hear.. we were getting to you, oh with all the new contenct sacrifices had to be made, wow it has been a year.... whoa does time fly. How can the dev team justify this treatment to an entire class? They knew it was going on and closed threads yet did nothing to solve the matter. Punish yes, help no.... it has been a year and a half since hunters have had a meaningful upgrade. We were promised by ZC that we would get our turn, that skills would be looked at... a year ago..... I still have the post he made...and then left. Nothing since the hunter forums have become a graveyard where no dev goes unless to silence those who would like answers. I have tried reaching other devs and while they know what is going on none will intervene. So everyone looks the other way while a class goes without insight on the toons they pay to play.

    Justify this please, change the status quo, we are tired of being ignored.

    Tydalmir
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208010000043945/signature.png]Rancor[/charsig]

    Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!

  2. #2
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    Question: if you were a developer and sticking your head up out of the bunker so you can be pelted with rocks weren't mandatory, would you be posting in the Hunter Forum? Be honest. I gave up on reading it several years ago, let alone posting there. And I'm not even a target for the chronically unhappy.

    Should Turbine have someone who stands up and takes a pounding? Maybe. But they'd be in customer relations, not development. The developers can get the feedback they need by A) lurking in the Hunter forum, and perhaps B) posting in the NDA forums, where people are required to be constructive and civil. I certainly would.

    Khafar

  3. #3
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    Hunter is not nearly as broken as some people claim it to be. The changes / upgrades coming soon in Rohan shows that the devs do indeed read our forum.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Question: if you were a developer and sticking your head up out of the bunker so you can be pelted with rocks weren't mandatory, would you be posting in the Hunter Forum? Be honest. I gave up on reading it several years ago, let alone posting there. And I'm not even a target for the chronically unhappy.

    Should Turbine have someone who stands up and takes a pounding? Maybe. But they'd be in customer relations, not development. The developers can get the feedback they need by A) lurking in the Hunter forum, and perhaps B) posting in the NDA forums, where people are required to be constructive and civil. I certainly would.

    Khafar
    Thank you for your input Khafar.. really maybe the hostility comes from no one addressing ANY issues with us... there is no give and take. Lets see how your favorite class would feel if they were left in the dark for a year. How different a tune would you be singing?

    Tydalmir
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208010000043945/signature.png]Rancor[/charsig]

    Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!

  5. #5
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    The sky is blue, the grass is green, and the devs haven't commented in the hunter forums in over a year. What else is new?

    Dev-community interaction has always been the exception rather than the rule, and the class forums are generally less frequented than the more generalized forums. I'm sure all the mindless kvetching the hunter board has been so enamored with over the last few years hasn't helped to engender any responses, either.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    Thank you for your input Khafar.. really maybe the hostility comes from no one addressing ANY issues with us... there is no give and take. Lets see how your favorite class would feel if they were left in the dark for a year. How different a tune would you be singing?

    Tydalmir
    Perhaps Turbine doesn't think the Hunter class is in need of fixing. Hunters are getting an update for Riders of Rohan. All conversation must have been with tame Hunters on Palantir. That program has permanent NDA.

    I do not comment on the public class forums any more. In personal opinion, they are cesspool of mostly worthless comments with vicious biting critters waiting for the next victim especially if they have a Blue name.

    I was the Hunter developer. I would read what is on the Forum. Never respond. Talk to my Tame Hunters privately and my coworkers. The developers play this game. There is bound to be some Hunter players in the Turbine Lotro development team.

    I've seen posts directed at developers with phrases like "Stupid developer". You are incompetent. You should be fired. Software developers like me are not paid put up with this kind of abuse. That what community relations and customer service is for. I have the "pleasure" of interacting with customers many times over the years. Generally I do it face to face. People tend to me nice when you are close enough to hit each other. Not always. I always had one or two customer service people along to help defuse situations.

    Or in one case, push the guy back down in the chair when he lunged across the table to choke me. I hadn't said anything to wind him up. He was in a really foul mood because our product wasn't meeting his requirements. The information we were getting from customer service, sales and those organizations wasn't helping. I got sent to talk to him and some of the other folks. Find out something more helpful that "It is broke. Fix it." My asking him "What exactly is the problem?" after ten prior explanations to other members of my company caused him to snap.
    Last edited by Yula_the_Mighty; Aug 25 2012 at 12:28 AM.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    Lets see how your favorite class would feel if they were left in the dark for a year. How different a tune would you be singing?
    Hunter is my favorite class. I have two of them at or near the level cap... one male, one female.

    The problem is that some gamers can be such obnoxious jerks that they eventually drive virtually all developers back into their bunkers. Posting in public is optional, and once they grow tired of getting pelted with rocks, they pull back and either mostly interact with people in the NDA program - or just lurk. I've seen that happen literally dozens of times in various game companies over the past 15 years (starting with some of the developers of Baldur's Gate, back in 1996-97).

    Khafar

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    The problem is that some gamers can be such obnoxious jerks that they eventually drive virtually all developers back into their bunkers.
    Exactly why I gave up trying to explain myself in the Hunter forums. The mob mentality of the frequent posters there makes me feel like I'm in Junior High getting bullied again.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    Perhaps Turbine doesn't think the Hunter class is in need of fixing. Hunters are getting an update for Riders of Rohan. All conversation must have been with tame Hunters on Palantir. That program has permanent NDA.

    I do not comment on the public class forums any more. In personal opinion, they are cesspool of mostly worthless comments with vicious biting critters waiting for the next victim especially if they have a Blue name.

    I was the Hunter developer. I would read what is on the Forum. Never respond. Talk to my Tame Hunters privately and my coworkers. The developers play this game. There is bound to be some Hunter players in the Turbine Lotro development team.
    So the tame hunters get the goods huh? Explain all the inconsitancies with the class that the wild and unruly hunters seem to see yet disappears before the eyes of these pets..... Really if you were the dev then you know how the hunter started and how it has progressed to a point where there are so many oxymoronic skills and screwed up traitlines that even you must admit there needs to be some house cleaning done to the class. I would love a sit down to discuss this calmly but see calmly gets ignored. We know we tried that with ZC... then he had a brilliant idea to take our only viable trait line... blue and turn it into a melee line for hunters. I would have loved that as a yellow line it would have been very fun to play yet nerfing raid hunters was the way he wanted to do this. Kind of like saying we are going to give minnies a new CC line but you have to give up healing to do it. So you blame hunters for rising up and protesting this change and vilify us for defending the only raid line we had. Red line would have had horrible consquences due to the spike aggro and no aggro skill to fix it.

    I love when people look at hunters and say we are crazy and that we are fine without acutally examining the skills we have and the role we play. We get a year in the box for having the balls to say to a dev you will destroy end game hunters by doing this. And we were right... we aren't always right you can't satisfy everyone, but to cripple a class for a melee line to replace our raid line?

    Tydalmir
    Last edited by Tinluen; Aug 25 2012 at 12:44 AM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208010000043945/signature.png]Rancor[/charsig]

    Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    The problem is that some gamers can be such obnoxious jerks that they eventually drive virtually all developers back into their bunkers.
    Not only that, but there hasn't been a damn shred of evidence to back up any of the complaints in a long time. As down as I am on LotRO's class devs (however many of them there actually are), I sure as hell wouldn't bother wading through all the pissing and moaning for whatever floaties of data might be swirling around there.
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    [FONT=Garamond][COLOR=DimGray][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/balgr/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Balgr Snowmantle[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=Silver]: Curmudgeon[/COLOR] :[SIZE=4][COLOR=#303030].[/COLOR][/SIZE][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/saladoc/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Saladoc Willowleaf[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=Silver]: Stick-in-the-mud[/COLOR]
    [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/ciruth/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Ciruth of Gondor[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=Silver]: Itinerant Scholar[/COLOR] : [COLOR=LemonChiffon][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/halvr/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Halvr[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/khasi/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Khasi Flamebrow[/COLOR][/URL], and [COLOR=LemonChiffon]Kholi[/COLOR][COLOR=Silver]: At your service![/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT]
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  11. #11
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    I have 5 Hunters just on Brandywine and I don't find the class to be broken. I enjoy playing the class and killing stuff via Pew Pew. I pretty much stopped visiting the Hunter's forum about 2 years ago.
    Arthad Eketta Former Drill Sgt U.S. Army Reserves
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  12. #12
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    The issue isn't broken skills or inconsistencies. You (loud obnoxious hunters) are not vilified for posting bugs or suggestions or defense theses. You (plural) are vilified for being loud obnoxious jerks. You're disregarded because of your (plural remember) sense of entitlement, your name-calling, your developer-denigrating (devs are people too, and you don't deserve to treat them any worse than your mother). You're marginalized because of how you present your arguments.

    I have a 75 hunter I consider my main, and I too have given up on reading most of the Hunter forum.

    P.S. he warned you.
    [size=1][i]A spaceship from another star / They ask me where all the people are
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Hunter is my favorite class. I have two of them at or near the level cap... one male, one female.

    The problem is that some gamers can be such obnoxious jerks that they eventually drive virtually all developers back into their bunkers. Posting in public is optional, and once they grow tired of getting pelted with rocks, they pull back and either mostly interact with people in the NDA program - or just lurk. I've seen that happen literally dozens of times in various game companies over the past 15 years (starting with some of the developers of Baldur's Gate, back in 1996-97).

    Khafar
    Played that game... was a boat rider in EQ.. but here is the drawback.. ivory tower syndrome. They back away and see only what they want to see. You need prespective vastly different from your own to see inconsistancies and problems where, as a developer, you wouldn't see because you weren't expecting to find them there. I can be one of those jerks, mostly I try to discuss matters and sometimes I am just as shortsighted as the person I am arguing with but, I can usually step back and examine what the other person is saying. I am not afraid to admit I was wrong or a good point was made against me. The hunter class has changed drastically from its inseption and if you play it as you say then you know this to be true. There is no clear path for a hunter right now. We can CC with a large reduction to our dps... we can throw lead downline like madmen, but aggro really hurts our class along with duribility. Many wild hunters have really done some great work looking at the hunter and where things get turned upside down for the class. Yet no one will comment, but they will punish. Frustrating is not the word anymore. I play other toons too and see devs come in and out of the other forums. I can't promise all hunters will play nice but we are paying for a product that we have no say in. The pets are kept behind NDAs and away from the rifraff but the wild players are just as inciteful as the tame ones. Being kept in the dark with no major changes for a year and a half is asking too much of any class to bear.

    Tydalmir
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208010000043945/signature.png]Rancor[/charsig]

    Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakiami View Post
    The issue isn't broken skills or inconsistencies. You (loud obnoxious hunters) are not vilified for posting bugs or suggestions or defense theses. You (plural) are vilified for being loud obnoxious jerks. You're disregarded because of your (plural remember) sense of entitlement, your name-calling, your developer-denigrating (devs are people too, and you don't deserve to treat them any worse than your mother). You're marginalized because of how you present your arguments.

    I have a 75 hunter I consider my main, and I too have given up on reading most of the Hunter forum.

    P.S. he warned you.
    Ok explain how we do this? Really when we showed ZC what his changes would do to raid hunters that is when the bad blood began. You are saying we should have went along with the change and liked the results? Look at the QQ from other classes and over things much less than destroying their main raid line. Wardens screamed when they nerfed meduim and light armor. It was fixed... for wardens... not any others. So before tossing the blanket over just the hunters maybe you should look at the whys and hows before getting out the kindling for a nice hunter roast.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208010000043945/signature.png]Rancor[/charsig]

    Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ArahadEketta View Post
    I have 5 Hunters just on Brandywine and I don't find the class to be broken. I enjoy playing the class and killing stuff via Pew Pew. I pretty much stopped visiting the Hunter's forum about 2 years ago.
    Explain how a hunter is set up by our design to do our best damage in the first ten to fifteen second of a fight yet it will lead to a wipe and or the death of the hunter. Our skills are designed for burst damage... high amounts of it, yet no reliable way to shed that aggro or survive the beating you will get by using the skills you were given to the fullest extent. Show me another dps class that has that restriction. Show me a class that double dips for dps, threat and power in their LIs. Why would you put a good power return on a skill to track invisible targets in PVE when that skill was used in ONE small section of a raid to date? The skill used in PVP is needed but the extra power does nothing for the hunter in that setting. I have listed many more in the forums yet no responses. Don't these seem like oxymorons to you as a hunter? Just one more to think about... hunters have a very powerful AOE ability but can't use it because we can't heal and can't control the aggro it generates. Why give us a skill that will only lead to the hunter dying? Now they tied it to split shot and added the focus regen. Great but how do you take advantage of this consistantly without killing yourself or your group?

    Anyone can play a hunter for just the enjoyment of the pew pew, but really look at the skills and how they apply to the class and you will see something very different.
    Last edited by Tinluen; Aug 25 2012 at 01:11 AM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208010000043945/signature.png]Rancor[/charsig]

    Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!

  16. #16
    The only thing I don't like about the hunter is how huge of a difference between solo and group play:
    Solo: PEW PEW
    Do as much dps as you want at blazing speeds! CC a mob to keep it away while you deal with the others, they get to close, use a bit of melee to take them down!
    Group:
    Quickshot and Autoattack, because if you use almost anything else, the chance of your group wiping skyrockets, add some kind of buff that gives hunters a base threat-reduction in percent for every group member they have within range of them. If I was huge troll would I be hitting the dude with the huge sword standing in front of me or the archer standing in group of 5 guys?

    The point is grouping as a hunter sucks! You have a low chance of joining a group because there are so many of use, you cant use most of skills, and when the group wipes the hunter almost always gets blamed for it.
    Windfola:
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  17. #17
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    The hunter forums reminds me alot of Lord of the Flies. Maybe if a blue name showed up to our miserable island, all the chaos would cease. Maybe the Jacks and the Rogers will stop trying to kill the Piggys and the Ralphs could actually help move things in a positive direction. I know i'd be more incline to tell a rude poster to shut up if I knew had some kind of support to do it. But hey, if the devs dont care, why should I? Its a bunch of kids driven to madness trying to kill each other, perhaps we should just sail past the island and come back when their all dead?
    Last edited by Luinomiel; Aug 25 2012 at 02:09 AM.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    here is the drawback.. ivory tower syndrome. They back away and see only what they want to see. You need prespective vastly different from your own to see inconsistancies and problems where, as a developer, you wouldn't see because you weren't expecting to find them there.
    I spent the better part of the past 12 years in various Turbine NDA programs, and there tends to be more interaction between players and developers there. I'm not currently in LOTRO's NDA program, and have no plans to be at this point, but that's been true in the programs I've participated in.

    Why is that? Basically, two reasons:
    1. Feedback tends to be more "on point" for what the developer is working on... if they've made changes to Hunter, they'll go to the forums and ask people for feedback on what works well, what doesn't, and why.
    2. Participants are required to be civil and constructive, and those who refuse to be will be ejected from the program.
    Lots of people are capable of providing solid, constructive feedback - even when they're being critical - and inside an NDA program, they don't have to deal with the obnoxious jerks (for long). If I were in their shoes, I'd be spending my time interacting with players in there too.

    Khafar
    Last edited by Khafar; Aug 25 2012 at 03:26 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    I spent the better part of the past 12 years in various Turbine NDA programs, and there tends to be more interaction between players and developers there. I'm not currently in LOTRO's NDA program, and have no plans to be at this point, but that's been true in the programs I've participated in.

    Why is that? Basically, two reasons:
    1. Feedback tends to be more "on point" for what the developer is working on... if they've made changes to Hunter, they'll go to the forums and ask people for feedback on what works well, what doesn't, and why.
    2. Participants are required to be civil and constructive, and those who refuse to be will be ejected from the program.
    Lots of people are capable of providing solid, constructive feedback - even when they're being critical - and inside an NDA program, they don't have to deal with the obnoxious jerks (for long). If I were in their shoes, I'd be spending my time interacting with players in there too.

    Khafar
    But there are obnoxious jerks who post in other sections of the forums as well and those forum sections dont get ignored to the extent that the hunter section is. I understand and agree with your reasoning for why a developer wouldnt post on the official forums, but it doesnt explain why specifically hunters are ignored to the extent that they are.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a0000002ea3ec/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Question: if you were a developer and sticking your head up out of the bunker so you can be pelted with rocks weren't mandatory, would you be posting in the Hunter Forum? Be honest. I gave up on reading it several years ago, let alone posting there. And I'm not even a target for the chronically unhappy.

    Should Turbine have someone who stands up and takes a pounding? Maybe. But they'd be in customer relations, not development. The developers can get the feedback they need by A) lurking in the Hunter forum, and perhaps B) posting in the NDA forums, where people are required to be constructive and civil. I certainly would.

    Khafar
    This.
    I honestly can't blame the poor guy for that.

    Hes paid to program stuff not to be a punching bag.

    P.S. To be fair all class forums can be tough on their devs, hunters are just... on their own league.
    Last edited by Leonide; Aug 25 2012 at 05:53 AM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0421500000004a797/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  21. #21
    Most of the class forums are pretty poor. The Hunter and Champion ones are particularly bad. Most are dominated by a small number of loud posters with very strong views. They also tend to be very negative, even more so than the general tenor of the forums.

    I'm sure the OP means well and feels his frustrations deeply and sincerely, but I'm afraid all he is doing is demonstrating why ZC is probably sensible to stay away from direct forum interaction. The heat generated greatly overwhelms the light shone.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    Thank you for your input Khafar.. really maybe the hostility comes from no one addressing ANY issues with us... there is no give and take. Lets see how your favorite class would feel if they were left in the dark for a year. How different a tune would you be singing?

    Tydalmir
    I think you the hostility is the fourms is what keeps them away in all areas of the fourms. Which is sad becouse its a two way interaction. Not only do you not get the information your asking about, but other players that aren't as experianced as you don't get thier informaion.

    Khafar has a solid point saying

    Lots of people are capable of providing solid, constructive feedback - even when they're being critical
    I surely wouldn't stick my head out the door to get insulted.

    it it not the job of the healer classes to keep the rest of the fellowship healed as best they can. An isn't that what potions and food is to be used for?

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NL
    Posts
    480
    Hold on, isn't this the world upside down? I as non NDA-program hunter don't get dev interaction because there's a dozen or so jerks who play the same class and make the forum a mess?

    If that's the issue, shouldn't one of the devs just walk over to Sapience's cubicle and tell him to use his ban-hammer a bit on the class forum? It's not like they can only kick people out of NDA-programs or that rudeness is allowed under the community guidelines...

    And yes, the minute dev interaction that's been there with Hunters hasn't been a great success, but that's also got to do with how it's done. If we get a 'preview' of the changes to come and that's it, that's not really interaction and people get frustrated. Have a look at Orion's Minstrel changes last year, where he went through several revisions and there actually was a good discussion about the idea behind them and how it should be implemented... that's a great example showing it can be done.

    Because despite we get some nice changes with RoR, it's just band-aids. For example the Hunter is still designed and balanced as being static at 40m range, even though there's no end-game instance that allows you to be static and at 40m anymore (animation roots, long inductions, weak armour are some of the results). Hence a majority plays with similar trait set up, focussing on the more mobile Blue line (shorter inductions are essential and thus ZC's good idea of a melee-ranged hybrid got shot down, not because of the idea, but the proposed implementation).
    Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others...
    [URL="http://thewesternalliance.org"]The Western Alliance[/URL], Laurelin
    [i]"The priority now is the store not the game. The store no longer supports the game, its the other way around."[/i]

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Lots of people are capable of providing solid, constructive feedback - even when they're being critical
    You are incapable of providing solid and constructive feedback if you have no idea where your class is heading. You have no idea if various issues are considered WAI or "will fix it soon" or "will fix it someday, not worth to bother yet" if there is little to no information given. You are welcome to find anything in-between RoI and recent (and positively surprising) few Dev Diary interactions that could help with problems above and all you will find will be some general declarations that have been already described as... "disputable" many times over. Or some interesting "it's not worth to add this or that because you still are angry about my great idea that turned out not too great" design philosophy revealed. After significant changes general game mechanic (not just class changes) brought and after months and months of piling complaints nobody even bothered to explain WAI in any effective form. Just some random lines spread around various forums people are treating like a. informative b. terribly smart (eg. that link above) for no particular reason. No, some random prophet explaining what is WAI from own PoV or by quoting some lines from character creation is not what I had in mind, thank you.

    You can post "I like skill A but skill B sucks", yay, awesome. Add as many fake sophistication and constructiveness (eg. "skill B should be replaced by skill C", which effectively means "C will suck less" after reduction of niceties) you wish, but that's maximum level of feedback possible in such circumstances. Numbers about skills used, traits being slotted, legacies bought etc explain that part far better, Turbine already has them - so there is no terrible need for typing empty ideas that will remain empty anyway and feel "constructive" and on "higher level" than some evil people; the biggest value out of this = slightly more used keyboard. Try to figure out what to add or what to change - see how long it takes before you run into the question "how it can affect entire traitline or entire stance" and then waste your time on guessing whether to accept current state as WAI, what IS WAI or ugh... guessing why do you even have to guess.

    Sure, it is not surprising majority can honestly state that class is fine - because it IS fine in majority of situations - but it also shows how hard is for some to imagine it may not be enough. Or that their "fine" is not a subject of complaints - but that usually requires actually reading complaints, not just interpreting them as (check various posts above for examples).


    Quote Originally Posted by Ingaras View Post
    not because of the idea, but the proposed implementation
    And because implementation was somewhat explained only when it was no longer proposed The whole idea was worth arguing about few months earlier - not when it was finally revealed and simultaneously declared dead. The way it was "communicated" at first was not worth even those angry fits it produced. Instead of discussing variants of the idea nobody bothered to give, people were discussing that nothing was given. Yeah, you need PhD in AngryMobology to predict that before it happens.
    Last edited by Ferthcott; Aug 25 2012 at 10:04 AM.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonide View Post
    This.
    I honestly can't blame the poor guy for that.

    Hes paid to program stuff not to be a punching bag.

    P.S. To be fair all class forums can be tough on their devs, hunters are just... on their own league.
    Ahhhh but see there is a catch to your logic... of course he is paid to program things.... but what things? Things that fit his or turbine's ideas of what a hunter needs or the consumers and what they think their character needs. It is a very tight balancing act to do. Do I blame ZC, yes in some ways and can easily see his point in others. The thing is there was a complete brakedown in communication.

    Some devs are better communicators than others... face it some people are more comfortable speaking than others. Your top quality as a programer isn't great people skills. Some have that skill set in addition to the ones that make them good programers some do not.

    This is my opinion.. ZC is a good programer who is not comfortable communicating with the masses. NOTHING wrong with that. I think he does just what others say programers do .. he looks in on the forums and takes the pulse of the hunters passively. Again done correctly nothing wrong with that but the communication when it comes looks like directives instead of suggestions. Orion is a give and take guy... here is what I am thinking yes, or no. If no, why not?

    ZC is gather info make the change then spring it on them. There was a lot of discussion on how to make hunters more hardy... I remember them and took part in them. A sword and bow hunter was something we started out as and drifted away. Many of the older hunters commented on posts from newer hunters saying hunters were never supposed to be melee toons. I was in favor of having a stance like that or a line even to make a hunter more diversified. There was a few back and forths on the matter and then it went away. If ZC took the pulse of the hunter he would see a good number of hunters wanting a stance or line like that. It would help address the need hunters have when things get inside to melee range. It is a problem for moors play and elites so it would help the hunters as a group. So ZC creates a way to do this giving hunters something they want and satisfying a need they have, he says nothing to us about the changes he wants to make and a week before live says ok melee hybrid is here it is going in for the blue line and all hell breaks loose.

    ZC is stunned because he did give us something that addressed a need and something hunters would like and he is getting negative feedback almost immediately. If it wasn't blue line he was taking away the uproar may have never happened...if he changed yellow line he may, to use a line I have used before in posts, been hailed a god instead of burned at the stake. Blue line was the only viable line for end game hunters... the ones that usually post the most and know the most about the hunter class. It would have left us with only red line and huge spike aggro issues that made the ROI aggro issue look like a kitten in comparison. Blue line hunters went wild, even the tamer ones. And for good reason. If ZC would have jumped on and said this is what I am thinking months before we could have had a discussion on it and worked things out. One week before the update and chaos ran rampant. In ZC 's postion we look like ingrates, he probably worked hard for the changes and put the time in programming this for us and now we are throwing it back in his face. Hunters see it as a surprise nerf to the class that was never discussed and after getting the bad news that a certain skill ALL hunters used was being taken away because ALL hunters used it we were already leary of what was going to happen in the release. Funny how a skill ALL LMs use was made passive while the hunter's skill was taken away.

    The ironic thing is blue line was ZC's baby. He made it more efficient and people loved it. The debate was never blue or red it was always red line baby until ZC changed blue line. He did that about 9 months before the update. Hunters were dealing with two huge changes to the class in less than a year something good was given and now being taken away.... blue line. I don't believe it was out of malice or a nerf but you had two sides to a dps coin... high spike aggro red line and a more streamlined smoother blue line. Both did great dps but in different ways. Blue line was great for aggro, something hunters could not control... red was great for the moors and for solo/group work to burn it down fast. Both sides are to blame and yet blameless in their reactions. The lack of telling a class where they are headed a vision of what they are leaves players in the dark and open to huge surprises that are not always good. Regular check ins like Orion would have saved a lot of pain on both sides. Or even a post : Hunters thinking about changing blue line - discuss.

    Well I have been of the reservation and will probably be sent back the hunter forums soon. Hunters needed to clear the air, we need to know where our class is going, we need a dev to talk to us again. A year is too long and no significant changes in a year and a half is outrageous. Yes we have blame in this and I won't deny it but we have served our time.

    Tydalmir
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208010000043945/signature.png]Rancor[/charsig]

    Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!

 

 
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