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Thread: RoR NDA lifted.

  1. #1
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    RoR NDA lifted.

    now to see if my foresights have proven true.


    anyone from beta care to commnet on the state of hunter?


    because i got a feeling that we are not going so hot in the moors :P

    PS: all creeps are over 20k with WL at 30k... reports are that freep dps and health has hardly gone up and warg morale bubbles (the ones they get every 7 sec) are hovering at 1500 morale (where have i seen that number before) and spiders have a 100% reflect damage skill that lasts for 5 sec with an additional 5 sec per venom pip consumed....



    we'r roast
    Last edited by Lendas; Aug 22 2012 at 11:08 AM.

  2. #2
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    Hunters are getting their faces backhanded with the spider reflect skill, the escape skill is very nice. Other then that, continue to adapt as a total glasscannon and you'll continue to be fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Hunters are getting their faces backhanded with the spider reflect skill, the escape skill is very nice. Other then that, continue to adapt as a total glasscannon and you'll continue to be fine.
    see episode 8 of "Hunter-Man"


    no we will not do fine when we kill ourselves with our own attacks and fight 30k WLs who can pummel champions into the ground without losing morale..... and we cannot do fine against wargs that get 1500 bubbles +morale heal (yes thats around the number of our bubble) every 7 seconds
    Last edited by Lendas; Aug 22 2012 at 11:16 AM.

  4. #4
    Cynical version: it will be fine.

    Unless there is some QQ-powered nerfbat (and you can hear a lot of it already in different shape or form than usual) killing various nice changes and stomping creeps in the ground for no reason, present Hunter issues will only grow, although masked - possibly - by bigger accent on group fights so Hunters can hide behind massive heals and pewpew with buffs.

    And over time, when there is less and less people able to say it's "fine" with a straight face... "think of the QQ power you can wield"

    So basically - the worse = the better. I'd rather have delayed class-specific upgrade forced by growing disparities than some dumb slapping +damage formula as "here, gobble up, happy now?" type of "Expansion bonus" and having an excuse to ignore everything else "because you can dev from camogank and stuff". If creep changes hold up before getting QQified completely, PvMP will benefit on its own. Hunters... well, I kinda think enthusiasts of derpshotspam deserve this more than anything.



    Edit: SotE has got its missing tick back. Rejoice, for now we are OP again XD
    Last edited by Ferthcott; Aug 22 2012 at 11:43 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    see episode 8 of "Hunter-Man"


    no we will not do fine when we kill ourselves with our own attacks and fight 30k WLs who can pummel champions into the ground without losing morale..... and we cannot do fine against wargs that get 1500 bubbles +morale heal (yes thats around the number of our bubble) every 7 seconds
    The spiders on the beta forums reassure me that their reflect skill is not overpowered.

    I don't know where you got 1.5k bubbles from either.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    The spiders on the beta forums reassure me that their reflect skill is not overpowered.

    I don't know where you got 1.5k bubbles from either.
    mmmmm right... the minis of the mini forums tell me they are not OP as well. they say they are "balanced"


    1.5k bubbles is n refrence to morale pools. warg flayer bubble is 5% of their max health. if they have 20k health they will have 1000 morale bubbles. if those bubbles are broken they will recive 1% of their morale as a heal (200) so they have a 1200 morale buffer from bubble+heal. now if they trait morale they will have more than 20k so around 1500 from bubble+heal

    another thing is that if the warg kites (melee) our breaks LOS (ranged) for 7 second they will be healed from the value of the bubble (1000-1200)



    out hunter bubble is 1500 morale... and seeing how high creeps are hitting thats about 1 good hit from a reaver or warg.

  7. #7
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    Completely regardless of any changes, you will be utterly dissatisfied. History has shown it time and time again. Why are you still here?
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  8. #8
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    Simple classes are becoming harder. Just something people are going to have to deal with, especially hunters. They are not known for their complexity.

    You also do not pick up my sarcasm, I do not support the idea of a 100% reflect.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    Warg Bubble
    Rank 9 Warg, which is rather high, so take it into consideration:
    2x Corruption slotted: 17,4k Morale
    Bubble popped: 211
    Bubble protective value: 300
    Bubble heal: 1056
    Standard "bubble combat value" then = 511/bubble

    4x Corruption (not everyone slots 2 meh ones): 19,18k Morale
    Bubble popped: 233
    Bubble protective value: well, duh, still 300
    Bubble heal: 1164
    Standard "bubble combat value" = 533/bubble

    ]Rank 5 Warg
    2x Corruption: 16,7k
    Bubble popped 190, so 490/bubble
    Bubble heal 950
    4x Corruption: 18,48k
    Bubble popped: 200, so 500/bubble
    Bubble heal: 1047

    Obviously, this is frikkin Beta, so values are ... well, you know what they are. With October delay, I would consider them as solid as sand castle, so don't build too many simulations yet ^^

    Using that last example: 500/7s means 4,3k-sh morale added to that 18k per minute of the fight. I wouldn't include"big" heal because it is rather situational, and rarely going to happen when Hunter is pounced and Warg goes for the kill. I mean, who is going to need it? :P
    Last edited by Ferthcott; Aug 22 2012 at 12:38 PM.

  10. #10
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    i'm more worried about warg freaking high health :S

    rank 9 wargs are the lowest i face on good 1v1s, real challenges are with r11 ones, anyway seems base health has gone so much higher if a r5 warg can reach 16.7k morale with just 2 corruptions :S


    i expected just the high end wargs reaching 18k health
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    The spiders on the beta forums reassure me that their reflect skill is not overpowered.
    Tested weaver on beta, auto ranked my weaver only to R7 same as only live as I wanted to get a good view of what its going to be like. Had a R15 hunter chase me into TA and at the last second I was almost dead so being at full pips I popped TC, result = hunter killed himself.
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  12. #12
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    I can't quite remember this skill from the Diary. What does that skill entail exactly? So it is a 100% reflect, right? For how long? Or for how much damage?

    Anyways I do not see how things are supposed to change and I do not see how a hunter is a simple class to play in the moors, either. The turning itself is an artform you'll need to develop when you wan to get off your inductions. In the moors there are no simple classes.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by VincentVanPort View Post
    I can't quite remember this skill from the Diary. What does that skill entail exactly? So it is a 100% reflect, right? For how long? Or for how much damage?

    Anyways I do not see how things are supposed to change and I do not see how a hunter is a simple class to play in the moors, either. The turning itself is an artform you'll need to develop when you wan to get off your inductions. In the moors there are no simple classes.
    30s is the tooltip.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulubeast View Post
    30s is the tooltip.
    That is unbelievably huge? What is the CD? I guess it reflects only a certain amount, like a bubble? So it will need all of the weavers focus system I guess. Can the weaver still press skills and/or attack while this is active?

    With our long animations and incuctions it is rather hard to estimate whether the reflect would take effect or not so I guess this is. Our high crit magnitude does not help here either...Geez, who thinks of these things, honestly? I mean are they doing any serious testing how changes work out in PvP in different circumstances?

    Under these conditions I want a Vanish with a 5m CD that allows me to attack wgile stealthing. Duration 20s should be enough I would argue this skill to be completely balanced.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by VincentVanPort View Post
    I can't quite remember this skill from the Diary. What does that skill entail exactly? So it is a 100% reflect, right? For how long? Or for how much damage?

    Anyways I do not see how things are supposed to change and I do not see how a hunter is a simple class to play in the moors, either. The turning itself is an artform you'll need to develop when you wan to get off your inductions. In the moors there are no simple classes.
    nothing is ever easy in the moors... nothing is ever simple. but having another "i win vs hunter" button for another class and, poped at the right time, essetially makes you kill yourself instantly


    (yea i said instantly.... because if he sees you doing induction then he pops it, you kill yourself with your own epic dps



    and seeing that they can pop this and have us do ourselves 3-4K damage of our 10k healthbar?


    and seeing that if we DO see this buff up we cant do snap about it (mission: survive 30sec vs a spider that has more lethal DPS than before and more health, more survival, and then actually have a chance to kill him afterwards?)

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by VincentVanPort View Post
    That is unbelievably huge? What is the CD? I guess it reflects only a certain amount, like a bubble? So it will need all of the weavers focus system I guess. Can the weaver still press skills and/or attack while this is active?

    With our long animations and incuctions it is rather hard to estimate whether the reflect would take effect or not so I guess this is. Our high crit magnitude does not help here either...Geez, who thinks of these things, honestly? I mean are they doing any serious testing how changes work out in PvP in different circumstances?

    Under these conditions I want a Vanish with a 5m CD that allows me to attack wgile stealthing. Duration 20s should be enough I would argue this skill to be completely balanced.
    every venom pip consumed makes it last longer.
    max 30sec.
    it essetially refelcts every point of damage (post mits) back in your face (so post RoR if you crit 4k on spider you get 4k hit on you)
    no bubble-like effect. only limited by amount of damage weaver can take (essetially its morale pool)
    spider has full abilities while this is active


    i think is has 3min cooldown.....

    it was origionally supposed to refelct 30% (still quite a bit) while increasing mits.... but they removed the mit bonus and made it refelct 100%

  17. #17
    Spider sacrifices own DPS for that big duration though, you are better off asking for details on Creep Forums, Beta server went down, we are getting through withdrawal - and are unable to create toons just to answer CD question

    Inductions can at least be cancelled, some ISB animation issues aside, imagine face of freep who just stacked full bar of bleeds ^^


    Edit: Just wait for it. Demands for "freep dps" being increased, for better LIs, for better Mastery formulas... and the funniest thing is how many of these will come from Hunters ^^ As if global buffs, including Minstrels, Wardens, Champs etc wouldn't be counter-intuitive for the goal of buffing creepside. Then it might, painfully, change into good old demands for straight, derpified, class - exclusive buff to DPS. Going to be funny once it's clear how nonsensical % formula it might require THIS time if it is indeed reduced to % increases, probably the cheapest solution available.
    Last edited by Ferthcott; Aug 22 2012 at 07:27 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferthcott View Post
    Spider sacrifices own DPS for that big duration though, you are better off asking for details on Creep Forums, Beta server went down, we are getting through withdrawal - and are unable to create toons just to answer CD question

    Inductions can at least be cancelled, some ISB animation issues aside, imagine face of freep who just stacked full bar of bleeds ^^


    Edit: Just wait for it. Demands for "freep dps" being increased, for better LIs, for better Mastery formulas... and the funniest thing is how many of these will come from Hunters ^^ As if global buffs, including Minstrels, Wardens, Champs etc wouldn't be counter-intuitive for the goal of buffing creepside. Then it might, painfully, change into good old demands for straight, derpified, class - exclusive buff to DPS. Going to be funny once it's clear how nonsensical % formula it might require THIS time if it is indeed reduced to % increases, probably the cheapest solution available.
    spiders dont have to give full venom for this to work.


    they can pop it for 1 venom and have a short (5 sec) but still potent reflect that pretty much (if the said hunter is in the middle of induction or attack animation or is not looking at spider buffbar every 1/2 a second) kills hunters.



    and they can expend their entire venom pool to become invincible for 30 sec.... whaever DPS they give up is made up for in survival

  19. #19
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    Good news everyone.

    I rolled a new BA and to my amusement:

    BAs get MT as their starter skills

    Weee.

    I gave it a try and easily got 20k morale. There were some group fights. A hunter used CotH and I was the only one targeting him. The bubble broke in around 2 seconds. The daze was too short and I got around a sec of daze and then recovered up. The slow was branded and I end up killing him. I was the only one attacking him. Also this was my first try of BAs. I wondered if he was increadibly bad or the class was meh.

    EDIT:

    I forgot to mention that the bubble applies at the end of animation.
    Last edited by Nibenwen; Aug 22 2012 at 08:03 PM.
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  20. #20
    As long as there is visual indication TC is active, not some obscure icon on buff bar, the only major issue is going to be ISB animation. % of the fights where this particular madness happens is not going to be very high.

    The rest of the problem.... heh... as I said, Lendas: worse = better ^^

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferthcott View Post
    As long as there is visual indication TC is active, not some obscure icon on buff bar, the only major issue is going to be ISB animation. % of the fights where this particular madness happens is not going to be very high.

    The rest of the problem.... heh... as I said, Lendas: worse = better ^^
    Yeah this is my biggest gripe with this skill, it needs a clear visible bubble-like effect, not a buff icon that is already used by a dozen other skills.
    And yeah there are some things I have in mind especially in consideration of the long ISB Animation. I mean it is about two seconds on the whole. Anyway I guess the same factors will be active here as they are with the LoS Argument. Another issue are our high hitting skills like BA and PS that can crit well over 2-3k and whose animations are rather log as well and also usable on the run so you can not abort them. So if you are unlucky you will dish yourself with a hit to 30% of your morale. Also what about existing dots?

    I do not get this skill at all. True they are using every venom pick but so do we with our merciful shot, right? Still they heavily rely on their three main skills that they can still use and build their venom up again. This is like a MT vor Spiders with a lower CD. It is even worse because instead of just absorbing 90% of the damage it reflects 100% of it...I mean Spiders are impossible to beat for hunters already, burrow alone will render every red traited hunter useless.

    Hold up, Lendas mentioned something about it being limited by the weavers morale? So does it reflect up to 100% of the weavers morale or is the weaver able to receive damage und ultimatively die? And it does not work like dying rage either, right?

    Yeah I remember reading about this skill that buffed their mitigations. I was rahter fond of that idea though I thought that they were in a good place already, since they are rather complex or at least not that straighforward powerful like a BA or Warg.

    I still do not get the system. I mean this skill is clearly devised for encounters in every situation, let it be zerg, group, solo or raid encounters. And there might well be classes out there who can just deal with not damaging a target for 30s straight. RKs (from what I read) might just switch to healing or get a bit of CC going or use a bubble. Same goes for Champs and Minstrels and wardens too I guess. But sry, we can not deal with this at all. I can not run around a tree for 30s straight not even with my CC available. Anyway even if I could the game is over as soon as NH runs out.

    Now let us do a bit of math.

    Their main dot is appliable every 6s, lasts for 30s and deals about 160 per tick on average. Over the course of 30s the skill is applied six times averaging about 600 each.

    So that would be 1600+3000=4600 in the course of 30s. With the numbers from Yelk in the other thread we will be averaging about 10k morale, 11,5 with CotH. So this is about a third of our morale gone in this time from one skill. A weaver has other skills at hand to to damage their opponents, so this is a really huge difference.

    True enough a weaver needs about 6-7 seconds to build up that much venom, so as a conclusion, if turbine did the testing you would need to be able to down that weaver in the course of this time, or be able to endure the 30s after. Also true enough you will be purging your poison all the time because there is nothing else to do, but I do not see us being able to compete with this skill.
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  22. #22
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    ohh talking about beta stuff that is going to be changed is always nice. someone wants some chips?
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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by VincentVanPort View Post
    Another issue are our high hitting skills like BA and PS that can crit well over 2-3k and whose animations are rather log as well and also usable on the run so you can not abort them. So if you are unlucky you will dish yourself with a hit to 30% of your morale. Also what about existing dots?
    Yeah, that is another reason I have nothing against this - on cynical level - there were so many people happy to argue being lucky on crits is totally OK as a class design and we can one-shot blablabla if Saturn meet Uranus and Aquarius influence is high. Fully expect to hear it's not so "fine" anymore if luck can work for both sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by VincentVanPort View Post
    Hold up, Lendas mentioned something about it being limited by the weavers morale? So does it reflect up to 100% of the weavers morale or is the weaver able to receive damage und ultimatively die? And it does not work like dying rage either, right?
    With my really limited knowledge of Spiders I know *one* thing - when there is some serious pewpew directed at you, you die as soon as your morale ends, bye bye TC reflect. Issue I am still not clear about is what happens when we get one of those "creep dies, but Combat log still records later hits that would go beyond creep health and numbers float and float and float" - not sure what happens if 100 Morale Spider is smashed by 3k dev either. Glad there is still enough time to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by VincentVanPort View Post
    And there might well be classes out there who can just deal with not damaging a target for 30s straight. RKs (from what I read) might just switch to healing or get a bit of CC going or use a bubble. Same goes for Champs and Minstrels and wardens too I guess. But sry, we can not deal with this at all. I can not run around a tree for 30s straight not even with my CC available.

    & later numbers
    No argument here. But if so many classes can somehow counter or at least suffer through it, we lack a reason to nerf it, it's counter - intuitive. We lack a reason to demand "bigger progression from LIs", "bigger stats on endgame sets" or any other absurd that affects classes that are finally looking less godmode. Class - issue demands rethinking class design - simple. At this point I don't really care when it happens - just that it is not +1000 Morale and +100% Damage level of creativity. And that it might be preceded by some interesting hypocritical QQ for "global" bonuses for freeps instead - funny as hell
    Last edited by Ferthcott; Aug 23 2012 at 06:46 AM.

  24. #24
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    what i mean by limited by weavers morale is that pretty much if the weaver is alive, its refelcting with the buff. its limited only by its duration or the weaver being alive.

    and if the weaver is a 100 heath and is hit for 3k... you get hit for 3k regardless.




    update on skill: the cooldown is now 2min. cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibenwen View Post
    Good news everyone.

    I rolled a new BA and to my amusement:

    BAs get MT as their starter skills

    Weee.

    I gave it a try and easily got 20k morale. There were some group fights. A hunter used CotH and I was the only one targeting him. The bubble broke in around 2 seconds. The daze was too short and I got around a sec of daze and then recovered up. The slow was branded and I end up killing him. I was the only one attacking him. Also this was my first try of BAs. I wondered if he was increadibly bad or the class was meh.

    EDIT:

    I forgot to mention that the bubble applies at the end of animation.
    BAs get their only escape skill at once? my god so horrible, we must make it rank 15 with once!!!
    the hunter was horrible, there is your answer.
    Nerf healing in PvMP and just maybe it will be worth it again.

 

 
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