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Thread: Orc Population?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    The story is not constantly evolving, basically is the same thought time take LOTR and Silmarillion they are the "final snapshot" as far as we readers are concerned they are the facts of the story.
    Not true for the Sil, as evidenced by how CT could put together the The Children of Hurin many years later.

    to Rad: "final words" do exist that is my only correction, I agree with you on the rest. Final means its end, for orcs we have an official version (final), just like the ring bearer was frodo some things don't change.
    No, we don't, except within LOTR. What's in the Sil is neither 'final' nor 'official' just because CT got it published.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    You know what I find funny, tolkien in his letters and other sources he usually describes what he wrote in his books, so to me you are completely and utterly wrong in many ways I don't have time to explain, you probably have some "residual logic" but you still far off of comprehending Tolkien works.

    I meant frodo as ring-bearer of the fellowship, he was the one charged to bring the ring to mordor.

    you look at things backwards, literally.
    Haha. He explains and embellishes, yes. If there's disparity between what he says and what is in the books, I'd go with what he says.

    ...And it used to be Bingo.. he changed it.

  3. #53
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    This topic is very squicky, but if you assume that Orcs mature faster, you can fit more generations into the time frame of Saruman breeding his army. Depending on the rate of growth, you'll quickly end with needing only an initial parent population of hundreds of Orcs - possibly some tribe from the Misty Mountains.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Geindir View Post
    Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought Uruk Hai existed long before Saruman's experiments? I'm sure I remember something like "mighty black Uruks from Mordor" or something... Could be wrong of course
    I know Saruman did experiment with orcs and whatnot, but I always thought his original orcs were from the Misty Mountains, and he experimented by making the Half Orcs by.... well, you get the rather sickening idea
    Isn't Uruk black speech for Orc?
    Uruk-hai are fighting orcs, basically, bred and engineered by Saruman.
    Ofc back in the day (first age and such) I'm sure, due to natural selection and variation, there would've been some 'mighty black Uruks' and some probably pewny weedy Uruks which would've probably died young due to being ripped apart at school

    To the OP, this is a question that has baffled me too :P I don't like the idea of a mummy orc and a daddy orc procreating... Unnerves me greatly :P

    Cal

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Not true for the Sil, as evidenced by how CT could put together the The Children of Hurin many years later.


    No, we don't, except within LOTR. What's in the Sil is neither 'final' nor 'official' just because CT got it published.
    Rad Im sorry to read this coming from you, don't let torweld or curand or any take straigh forwardness when talking any subject is my advice.

    I meant the books and cited simarillion, but also Children of Hurin you are correct they are part of the published material, also Unfinished tales too if I remember right. But my point is simple published books take priority over other material because they are the source material, the letters or other sources might add and broad the terms used in those books but not even CT contradicted the source material at least that is his intention from his writtings.

    The published books are official sources for fans to discuss, also the letters because hardly tolkien contradicted himself of what he wrote he mostly broaden it by offering a explanation.

    Haha. He explains and embellishes, yes. If there's disparity between what he says and what is in the books, I'd go with what he says.

    ...And it used to be Bingo.. he changed it.
    Boom kawabanga...were to know whats right of wrong, well disparities are rare the books are a reliable source and well its even more official than a letter because of that authors rarely contradict their own books.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Rad Im sorry to read this coming from you, don't let torweld or curand or any take straigh forwardness when talking any subject is my advice.

    I meant the books and cited simarillion, but also Children of Hurin you are correct they are part of the published material, also Unfinished tales too if I remember right. But my point is simple published books take priority over other material because they are the source material, the letters or other sources might add and broad the terms used in those books but not even CT contradicted the source material at least that is his intention from his writtings.

    The published books are official sources for fans to discuss, also the letters because hardly tolkien contradicted himself of what he wrote he mostly broaden it by offering a explanation.
    The books that really take priority over other material are those published in Tolkien's lifetime, which naturally excludes the Sil because he'd been dead for a few years by the time it was published. The point I was making seems to have gone sailing over your head: if the published Sil is supposedly definitive in some way, then how was The Children of Hurin even possible? You said before that the stories don't evolve, but that one did because CT came up with a different take on it. The Sil is therefore not some 'final snapshot' as you suggested, if a sizable chunk of it could be reconsidered and republished in a different form three decades later.

    As for UT, you should take a hint from the name: Unfinished Tales, right? It doesn't get the same status as LOTR just because it's been published.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al.;6498069The published books are official sources for fans to discuss, also the letters because [B
    hardly[/B] tolkien contradicted himself of what he wrote he mostly broaden it by offering a explanation.


    Boom kawabanga...were to know whats right of wrong, well disparities are rare the books are a reliable source and well its even more official than a letter because of that authors rarely contradict their own books.
    "Hardly" and "rarely" being the operatives.

    In this case, Orcs' origins, and a few other notable cases, Tolkien does change/correct/alter (whatever you want to call it) what he has either written, or has been published.

    In these cases, since Tolkien regularly applies his pseudo-historian "rule" to his published written works, what he says in letters directly holds more weight if there is a disparity than what is written in books, imo. The level of "officiallity~" is subjective. I'd take anything Tolkien has written to be "official", with anything tinkered with by CT to be much, much less than that.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    The books that really take priority over other material are those published in Tolkien's lifetime, which naturally excludes the Sil because he'd been dead for a few years by the time it was published. The point I was making seems to have gone sailing over your head: if the published Sil is supposedly definitive in some way, then how was The Children of Hurin even possible? You said before that the stories don't evolve, but that one did because CT came up with a different take on it. The Sil is therefore not some 'final snapshot' as you suggested, if a sizable chunk of it could be reconsidered and republished in a different form three decades later.

    As for UT, you should take a hint from the name: Unfinished Tales, right? It doesn't get the same status as LOTR just because it's been published.
    Well are supposed to know that the Sil was made by using J.R.R Tolkien writtings and stories put together by his son CT, so yes in a way its "written in Tolkien lifetime" whatever that means. Officially orcs are twisted elves as now the representative is CT intepreting his father work says so, thats evolution of the story, it was never changed in Tolkien "life" he had doubts on the origin but his son affirmatively made the origin a reality.

    The Unfinished tales take same priority as Silmarillion and LOTR, sorry its even on the book cover J.R.R Tolkien Unfinished tales, etc.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curandhras View Post

    In these cases, since Tolkien regularly applies his pseudo-historian "rule" to his published written works, what he says in letters directly holds more weight if there is a disparity than what is written in books, imo. The level of "officiallity~" is subjective. I'd take anything Tolkien has written to be "official", with anything tinkered with by CT to be much, much less than that.
    I don't know about it but usually Tolkien was more into literature and philosophy rather than history, hence no "pseudo-historian rule", CT holds the same degree of officiality than his father on things not clarified by Tolkien, I give CT Silmarillion like a recollection of his fathers "letters" "papers" "scrabblings" put together to make coherent with LOTR and Hobbit, so yes might be subjective to you, but published material in literature when "changed" the next edition is "changed", Tolkien never changed his LOTR or Hobbit even if his letters he had some doubts it never happened.

  10. #60
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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Well are supposed to know that the Sil was made by using J.R.R Tolkien writtings and stories put together by his son CT, so yes in a way its "written in Tolkien lifetime" whatever that means. Officially orcs are twisted elves as now the representative is CT intepreting his father work says so, thats evolution of the story, it was never changed in Tolkien "life" he had doubts on the origin but his son affirmatively made the origin a reality.
    Not only did the stories keep on changing during Tolkien's lifetime (e.g. the earliest version didn't have Orcs coming from Elves but being made by Melko from 'stone and slime' instead) but Chris Tolkien had to choose which versions went best together to try to make a consistent narrative. Sometimes he had to stitch things together or fill gaps and he wasn't always happy with the results; there's at least one ugly hack in there. That constructed whole certainly didn't appear in Tolkien's lifetime and as a result, it doesn't have the same standing as LOTR.

    The Unfinished tales take same priority as Silmarillion and LOTR, sorry its even on the book cover J.R.R Tolkien Unfinished tales, etc.
    When it says 'unfinished' it means unfinished - in one case (The Hunt for the Ring) it can be shown to differ with the published LOTR. Finished, published work has greater standing then unfinished work published well after the author's death. It may say 'J.R.R. Tolkien' on the cover of UT but it also says 'Edited by Christopher Tolkien' in smaller writing underneath.

  11. #61
    Tolkien should be the highest authority on these subjects, absolutely, and I think this hierarchy of canon when there's contradiction is probably correct, as far as it goes. What we're talking about here, though, is an idea that entails rather hefty re-working of the legendarium, especially the chronology. And that work was simply never done. This is why I have such respect for Christopher Tolkien. He did the best he could with what his father left behind (if he hadn't it's unlikely we'd even have the grist for this conversation in the first place), knowing that he'd be the one taking the shots for any places where it just didn't measure up to the "finished" works.

    So, to say that Tolkien grew unhappy with the idea that the orcs were originally twisted, corrupted elves is undoubtedly accurate. Unfortunately, any competing notions were destined to remain merely a gleam in the master's eye. When CT came to this section of the work, he looked at what was available, and decided that to go with any other version would mean that he'd basically have to go in and write all the background himself. It simply wasn't there. It's like if Tolkien suddenly decided, and wrote in a letter or diary or something that it would be more dramatic if Galadriel had worked for Morgoth in the First Age, but then repented and spent the Second and Third Ages atoning. And then died without ever doing anything more with the idea. It's intriguing, and deepens her character, giving her a much bigger role in what would become the Silmarillion... but it's just an idea that never got any follow through. If CT wants to put it in the Silmarillion, he's going to have to write the whole "Galadriel as servant of Morgoth" epic himself, start to finish. So, he passed on the idea. If that had happened, would we be in the forums here arguing that Galadriel used to be evil, Tolkien said so, exactly once, and never got a chance to change his mind again later due to death? I mean, Tolkien, if I recall correctly, never definitively decided how Galadriel even got back to Middle Earth in the first place. Do we want to have an argument that CT got that wrong too?

    Orcs were bred from corrupted, twisted elves. That's what has to be the last word, because Tolkien never got to go back and make the necessary changes. Would he have done that, if he'd lived? Maybe. But it's like arguing about what Lincoln would have done in his second term if he'd lived. We know his intentions. We know the kind of person he was. But we can't know what would actually have happened if he'd lived. We'll never know. What we know, is that Orcs were bred from corrupted, twisted elves. Tolkien writing to a friend something like, "wouldn't it be funny if Frodo was secretly bringing the Ring to Sauron the whole time and Gollum managing to take it at the end is the only thing that stops Sauron from getting the Ring back? Re-writes start tomorrow!" just before he died doesn't and shouldn't have any impact on the story we already know. The people arguing the other side here are kind of using the George Lucas defense.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0820700000004c7c0/signature.png]Golodthir[/charsig]

 

 
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