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Thread: Orc Population?

  1. #1
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    Question Orc Population?

    I was wondering how the orcs multiply? realizing of course that there's no "mommy orc" and "Daddy orc" and things go on as normal but that somehow they do come out of the ground, at least the urukai do; That is if the movie was correct (which i'm not saying it is.) I of course don't mean to be vulgar or inappropriate here but it is just a biological question.

    I realize that the orcs were simply elves that were captured and twisted by Melkor and then while the elves that still remained multiplied and lived so did the race of the orcs. My only question is how?

    I know that the orcs of Isenguard were science experiments so they would come out of the ground like falling out of a test tube so i really have no idea.

  2. #2
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    As said in the Silmarillion: "Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar". Bow chika wow wow basically.

    The movie interpretation is incorrect as far as I can tell, but of course they couldn't show Orcs actually reproducing, frankly nor would I want them to.
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  3. #3
    this made me lol.

  4. #4
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    Orc mitosis perhaps? :P

  5. #5
    Orcs reproduce in the same manner as elves and men. Orcs were elves originally corrupted by Morgoth.

    The details of how orcs reproduce are not described by Tolkien.

    A reasonable presumption would be not all orc captives were slain, some were forced to labor differently.

  6. #6
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    Same way rats do.

    EDIT: Or any other unpleasant vermin you care to think of.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    As said in the Silmarillion: "Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar". Bow chika wow wow basically.

    The movie interpretation is incorrect as far as I can tell, but of course they couldn't show Orcs actually reproducing, frankly nor would I want them to.
    The movie interpretation is not incorrect, it is however an interpretation of the creation of the Isengard Uruk-Hai Orcs created by Saruman. Those Orcs are not your run of the mill type, they as a species where created or engineered by him.

    In essence Tolkien never showed a female Orc, nor did he imply they where made in any other way than there being a mummy and daddy Orc, other than the Isengard Uruk-Hai who where engineered.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrayel121 View Post
    The movie interpretation is not incorrect, it is however an interpretation of the creation of the Isengard Uruk-Hai Orcs created by Saruman. Those Orcs are not your run of the mill type, they as a species where created or engineered by him.

    In essence Tolkien never showed a female Orc, nor did he imply they where made in any other way than there being a mummy and daddy Orc, other than the Isengard Uruk-Hai who where engineered.
    Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought Uruk Hai existed long before Saruman's experiments? I'm sure I remember something like "mighty black Uruks from Mordor" or something... Could be wrong of course
    I know Saruman did experiment with orcs and whatnot, but I always thought his original orcs were from the Misty Mountains, and he experimented by making the Half Orcs by.... well, you get the rather sickening idea

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geindir View Post
    Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought Uruk Hai existed long before Saruman's experiments? I'm sure I remember something like "mighty black Uruks from Mordor" or something... Could be wrong of course
    Uruks existed, they're simply bigger, stronger orcs. Uruk-Hai were bred by Saruman however.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azrayel121 View Post
    The movie interpretation is not incorrect
    I'm afraid it is. Tolkien said in an essay he wrote for his own benefit that (to paraphrase) the trick of breeding Orcs with Men had been done before (Sauron had Uruks too and this larger, stronger breed of Orc had been giving the Gondorians a lot of trouble), and that Saruman had either happened upon the same method or learned of it, and repeated it. We're told that it involved corrupting Men to the point at which they could be induced to mate with Orcs. Saruman's Uruk-hai were notably more Man-like than Sauron's Uruks, particularly tall and fierce, so it appears that Saruman had indeed improved upon the originals. Sauron's Uruks were a bit more squat and ape-like, by description, if Grishnakh is anything to go by.

    It is however an interpretation of the creation of the Isengard Uruk-Hai Orcs created by Saruman. Those Orcs are not your run of the mill type, they as a species where created or engineered by him.
    Having Orcs being spawned in pits is simple and needs no further explanation - ideal for a movie. Tolkien had in fact originally imagined Orcs being made rather than born, so what's shown is actually Tolkienish by inspiration but he'd set that idea aside well before the time LOTR was written (as a result of him having decided that Melkor couldn't grant his creations true life).

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Geindir View Post
    Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought Uruk Hai existed long before Saruman's experiments? I'm sure I remember something like "mighty black Uruks from Mordor" or something... Could be wrong of course
    I know Saruman did experiment with orcs and whatnot, but I always thought his original orcs were from the Misty Mountains, and he experimented by making the Half Orcs by.... well, you get the rather sickening idea
    Hence I did label them Isengard Uruk-Hai. I was specific in that :-)

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    I'm afraid it is. Tolkien said in an essay he wrote for his own benefit that (to paraphrase) the trick of breeding Orcs with Men had been done before (Sauron had Uruks too and this larger, stronger breed of Orc had been giving the Gondorians a lot of trouble), and that Saruman had either happened upon the same method or learned of it, and repeated it. We're told that it involved corrupting Men to the point at which they could be induced to mate with Orcs. Saruman's Uruk-hai were notably more Man-like than Sauron's Uruks, particularly tall and fierce, so it appears that Saruman had indeed improved upon the originals. Sauron's Uruks were a bit more squat and ape-like, by description, if Grishnakh is anything to go by.


    Having Orcs being spawned in pits is simple and needs no further explanation - ideal for a movie. Tolkien had in fact originally imagined Orcs being made rather than born, so what's shown is actually Tolkienish by inspiration but he'd set that idea aside well before the time LOTR was written (as a result of him having decided that Melkor couldn't grant his creations true life).
    That wouldn't have been a very pleasant scene to watch

    Would've have been funny if that guy from "Walking with Cavemen" showed up and narrated the intercourse between Orc and Man.

    "And here we have an EXTRAOrdinary example of inter-spiecies intercourse. According to Proffesor J.R.R Tolkien, these men have been genetically, spiritually and biologically corrupted in order to breed with the tainted sub-spiecies known as "Orcs." These fascinating creatures were spawned from the pits of Udun, and are believed to be mono-gendered, but we are not entierley sure if sex can be differentiated between male an-

    Look! The Orc has a &&&&&!"

    Edit: Not sure how P.E.N.I.S is a swearword :-/

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    I'm afraid it is. Tolkien said in an essay he wrote for his own benefit that (to paraphrase) the trick of breeding Orcs with Men had been done before (Sauron had Uruks too and this larger, stronger breed of Orc had been giving the Gondorians a lot of trouble), and that Saruman had either happened upon the same method or learned of it, and repeated it. We're told that it involved corrupting Men to the point at which they could be induced to mate with Orcs. Saruman's Uruk-hai were notably more Man-like than Sauron's Uruks, particularly tall and fierce, so it appears that Saruman had indeed improved upon the originals. Sauron's Uruks were a bit more squat and ape-like, by description, if Grishnakh is anything to go by.


    Having Orcs being spawned in pits is simple and needs no further explanation - ideal for a movie. Tolkien had in fact originally imagined Orcs being made rather than born, so what's shown is actually Tolkienish by inspiration but he'd set that idea aside well before the time LOTR was written (as a result of him having decided that Melkor couldn't grant his creations true life).
    I know it may sound daft but I never actually read that, I did search for it this evening and found that after LOTR in the web source I found that orcs where corrupted humans after several generations. It was not entered as a part of any book or planned publication.

    Now I'm not denying it since it's clearly stated, but for me it would seem odd in one sense as that would mean that Saruman would have to have started at least 100 years for a minimum of "Several" generations to be literal.

    We know from sources that several of the council and lots of people go to Orthanc and for no one to notice that he had an army of orcs in the making would be odd.

    From gathered information some have stated that he "bred an army" of ten's thousand from some point after the year 2953 (The year of the last Council meeting on Sauron and the ring) and Lotr is based largely in 3018/3019 (iirc). In that time you could state that ten thousand where created in a maximum of 66 years but that's pushing logical growth and is not "several generations". I would say Saruman had to have created them in som einhuman manner without the mummy daddy buttons.

    Either that or we have another Balrog Wings incident in the making :-P

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azrayel121 View Post
    From gathered information some have stated that he "bred an army" of ten's thousand from some point after the year 2953 (The year of the last Council meeting on Sauron and the ring) and Lotr is based largely in 3018/3019 (iirc). In that time you could state that ten thousand where created in a maximum of 66 years but that's pushing logical growth and is not "several generations". I would say Saruman had to have created them in som einhuman manner without the mummy daddy buttons.

    Either that or we have another Balrog Wings incident in the making :-P
    You never know. Orcs could breed a lot and very fast. If each Orc "birth" has like 8+ Orclets in it and gestation only takes 3 months?

    They breed in the same fashion as Men, Elves etc but there's nothing to say it takes anywhere near as long.

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    So did Arwen have a little half orc brother or sister?.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azrayel121 View Post
    We know from sources that several of the council and lots of people go to Orthanc and for no one to notice that he had an army of orcs in the making would be odd.
    He must have kept 'upstairs' at Isengard looking all tidy while who-knows-what was going on behind the scenes, because Gandalf didn't notice anything amiss on his way in.

    From gathered information some have stated that he "bred an army" of ten's thousand from some point after the year 2953 (The year of the last Council meeting on Sauron and the ring) and Lotr is based largely in 3018/3019 (iirc). In that time you could state that ten thousand where created in a maximum of 66 years but that's pushing logical growth and is not "several generations". I would say Saruman had to have created them in som einhuman manner without the mummy daddy buttons.
    That's the thing, the 'official' line was that nobody but Eru could create truly living things from nothing like that. It was possible to create something that was alive after a fashion but lacking the spark of true life, really just a puppet, which would only display the semblance of life as long as its creator kept his will upon it (this is what Eru told Aule about the Dwarves; that was what they were before Eru took pity on them). That's why Melkor had to twist existing creatures to suit his purposes rather than simply making whatever he wanted. And of course Saruman was no Vala, besides.

    Either that or we have another Balrog Wings incident in the making :-P
    More Tolkien's timescale being a bit screwy, I think. A bit too short for it to be credible, even if Orcs did breed like rabbits when given half a chance.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    He must have kept 'upstairs' at Isengard looking all tidy while who-knows-what was going on behind the scenes, because Gandalf didn't notice anything amiss on his way in.
    True, I'll not rule that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    That's the thing, the 'official' line was that nobody but Eru could create truly living things from nothing like that. It was possible to create something that was alive after a fashion but lacking the spark of true life, really just a puppet, which would only display the semblance of life as long as its creator kept his will upon it (this is what Eru told Aule about the Dwarves; that was what they were before Eru took pity on them). That's why Melkor had to twist existing creatures to suit his purposes rather than simply making whatever he wanted. And of course Saruman was no Vala, besides.
    Aha, that's where I was coming from with this is that he engineered them, maybe not birthed from a test tube but since he was a wizard he took existing Orc stock and then waved his staff over them a little and grew them to be bigger brutes. A typical "A Wizard did it" explanation.

    Saruman took something, added a bit of sugar and splice and came out with a better grade of Orc. He never crafted them from scratch but engineered them from living beings. That's how I always thought of it when I read the books.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    More Tolkien's timescale being a bit screwy, I think. A bit too short for it to be credible, even if Orcs did breed like rabbits when given half a chance.
    Yeah he clearly had plans but as Christopher Tolkien had said on many occasions his fathers organisation skills where not the best. His story clearly evolved with time and sometimes beyond the original context.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Curandhras View Post
    You never know. Orcs could breed a lot and very fast. If each Orc "birth" has like 8+ Orclets in it and gestation only takes 3 months?

    They breed in the same fashion as Men, Elves etc but there's nothing to say it takes anywhere near as long.
    If that was the case then I would have expected there to be millions upon millions (if not drifting into billions) in Mordor as they had hundreds of years to build up numbers.

    I'm not saying no to this theory it's just I'd expect larger numbers if someone was out to breed just Orcs. But hey, I'm no Wizard so I don't know how mental they go :-P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azrayel121 View Post
    If that was the case then I would have expected there to be millions upon millions (if not drifting into billions) in Mordor as they had hundreds of years to build up numbers.

    I'm not saying no to this theory it's just I'd expect larger numbers if someone was out to breed just Orcs. But hey, I'm no Wizard so I don't know how mental they go :-P
    But they have limited resources in Mordor. Even orcs have to eat. They also may have much shorter lifespans than men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoyKashka View Post
    But they have limited resources in Mordor. Even orcs have to eat. They also may have much shorter lifespans than men.
    Not to mention they aren't the most organised group. Probably ended up killing each other a lot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curandhras View Post
    You never know. Orcs could breed a lot and very fast. If each Orc "birth" has like 8+ Orclets in it and gestation only takes 3 months?

    They breed in the same fashion as Men, Elves etc but there's nothing to say it takes anywhere near as long.
    While not impossible I think it's a safer bet to assume they 'bred' more similarly to men and elves.

    The reason why their population can seemingly increase much quicker is that the 'she-orcs' presumably are used exclusively for 'orc farming'. I'm guessing they'd have specific buildings built for such a purpose.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by LoyKashka View Post
    But they have limited resources in Mordor. Even orcs have to eat. They also may have much shorter lifespans than men.
    I'm not so sure on lifespan, since we are bealing with corrupted Elves and Men. We're drifting more towards explaining it away.

    As for limited food in Mordor. Orcs do eat other Orcs so they could brred in food :-P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath View Post
    While not impossible I think it's a safer bet to assume they 'bred' more similarly to men and elves.

    The reason why their population can seemingly increase much quicker is that the 'she-orcs' presumably are used exclusively for 'orc farming'. I'm guessing they'd have specific buildings built for such a purpose.
    No wonder orcs bred like flies, think I read somewhere the bred rate was nearly as fast as "flies", they really bred fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath View Post
    I'm guessing they'd have specific buildings built for such a purpose.
    I'm thinking the operative word would be 'pits', there

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    No wonder orcs bred like flies, think I read somewhere the bred rate was nearly as fast as "flies", they really bred fast.
    Yeah, I remember reading something like that too. Always give me the impression that orcs weren't pregnant for long and the offspring just gorged on available food. Would explain the huge numbers of orcs managing to breed and survive so quickly in conditions that shouldn't have allowed it.

 

 
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