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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    Yeah an apologist and history re-writer! You and your ilk make the game GRRRRRRREEAT!

    Anyway, all wrong.
    You're the only person I've ever heard of who didn't like the Moria launch. Who's rewriting history here?

    Go ahead and link all those awesome Rift armour set bonuses everyone was so upset to give up.

    (I'll give you a hint--they all sucked)
    Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    You're the only person I've ever heard of who didn't like the Moria launch. Who's rewriting history here?
    Lol ridiculous. Why don't you try and tell me the sun doesn't rise in the east or set in the west? And then demand that I defend that it does. Sorry, not even worth the time.

    When issues are being raised, its guys like you, who kill this game. You give turbine an excuse to ignore those raising issues and give us the crp like on the list above. And for what? To play devil's advocate? To look cool to people you'll never meet? To make Turbine like you? Or to feel good about yourself because you believe you're a benevolent person.

    Whatever. I learned a looooooong time agao you guys are a waste of time. You were probably one of the idiots defending radiance when everyone was railing against it.

    Go ahead and link all those awesome Rift armour set bonuses everyone was so upset to give up.

    (I'll give you a hint--they all sucked)
    Again, really. Not even worth the time.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    Lol ridiculous. Why don't you try and tell me the sun doesn't rise in the east or set in the west? And then demand that I defend that it does. Sorry, not even worth the time.

    When issues are being raised, its guys like you, who kill this game. You give turbine an excuse to ignore those raising issues and give us the crp like on the list above. And for what? To play devil's advocate? To look cool to people you'll never meet? To make Turbine like you? Or to feel good about yourself because you believe you're a benevolent person.

    Whatever. I learned a looooooong time agao you guys are a waste of time. You were probably one of the idiots defending radiance when everyone was railing against it.



    Again, really. Not even worth the time.
    Oh, I make plenty of arguments. A quick check of my posting history would probably show me being pretty critical of Turbine. But I'm not going to make up false claims like Moria being an "unmitigated disaster" just because some creep was upset he got hit with a 10k Heartseeker once and never stopped crying.

    And no, Radiance got old even before DN.

    Now stop wasting your time replying. And I will take your silence on the Rift armour set bonuses as a win, because I *had* the sets, and couldn't even remember what a single bonus was outside the shadow absorb clicky. I went back and looked and saw why I couldn't remember them. Hmm, Glory threat and damage (Rift) or *30-second DEATHSTORM* (Moria). Heartseeker power cost (Rift) or Reduced Needful Haste cooldown (Moria). Man, I'm sure it was real tough for people to give up those awesome old bonuses. I must be imagining a reality where people got excited over useful bonuses.
    Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    Oh, I make plenty of arguments. A quick check of my posting history would probably show me being pretty critical of Turbine. But I'm not going to make up false claims like Moria being an "unmitigated disaster" just because some creep was upset he got hit with a 10k Heartseeker once and never stopped crying.

    And no, Radiance got old even before DN.

    Now stop wasting your time replying. And I will take your silence on the Rift armour set bonuses as a win, because I *had* the sets, and couldn't even remember what a single bonus was outside the shadow absorb clicky. I went back and looked and saw why I couldn't remember them. Hmm, Glory threat and damage (Rift) or *30-second DEATHSTORM* (Moria). Heartseeker power cost (Rift) or Reduced Needful Haste cooldown (Moria). Man, I'm sure it was real tough for people to give up those awesome old bonuses. I must be imagining a reality where people got excited over useful bonuses.
    Hmm, I see your sig says you are in Iron Rangers.

    I agree Colorspecs, not worth the time
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0620501000014478e/signature.png]Dogwillhunt[/charsig]

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    As an LM I can't agree with some of your assessments of the class. Firstly, our Blue line is extremely sub-par, on a level with the Hunter's yellow line from what I can tell. Yes, we do solo fairly well, but in small groups we have major issues effectively filling any role. Our heals aren't quite good enough, going debuffs is too much, which leaves us with only DPS. And considering it's almost entirely AoE, it is not viable in certain instances(T2 Fangorn's Edge for instance).

    As for raids, I don't run them often so I can't comment much. I will say though that you would have at most two LMs, as they do not stack well at all.

    On PvMP, due to Audacity we're in pretty much the same situation as Hunters. Long inductions(perhaps even longer) and squishy armour puts us squarely in the 'burst damage or die' camp. Certain advantages we have yes, stun immunity and a potent self-heal, but that's about it.

    I haven't played a Hunter in ages so I can't and won't judge the rest of your post, just thought I'd address your description of the LM's current situation(obviously my own opinion).
    That's what you're expecting as LM, though, you're a SUPPORT role. Your main job would be perma-mezzing/stunning one, or even two targets so that the rest of the group can act freely. It's like providing suppressing fire while the rest of your squad moves around unhindered by the enemy's heavy stuff.

    The issue with hunters, as a class and role in groups, is that our main and ONLY job that we're expected to do is DPS. We're being outmatched by numerous other classes in this respect, as most average hunters won't meet their maximum potential to begin with, and even the ones that do aren't providing much more benefit over their melee (as well as more independent of healing/tanking) counterparts that can do their jobs nearly as well except without all the drawbacks of having a hunter along (squishy, risks of pulling aggro and wiping everything/killing the tank, causes issues with healing due to lack of self heals, power hog in most cases if a captain isn't available in the group, etc).

    Hunters need a defining role besides "blow it up and pray not to pull aggro". Why do you think the most common scapegoat is 'blame it on the hunter'? It's because there's just so much that can go wrong if it's not played correctly because we have to use shoehorn methods (stance dancing, completely stopping DPS, resorting to a single skill for long periods of time, etc) in order to do our job as well as we should be able to naturally.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aronath View Post
    Hmm, I see your sig says you are in Iron Rangers.

    I agree Colorspecs, not worth the time
    This guy is an Iron Ranger? Wow.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    This guy is an Iron Ranger? Wow.
    For someone who doesn't want to waste time with me, you sure are putting a lot of stock into replying, and talking about a kinship I'm no longer in. Why not just go back to your regular whining, instead of bringing up some kin drama I was not, nor have any desire to be, a part of. They certainly showed me more substance in the short time I was with them than your posts ever have.
    Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    For someone who doesn't want to waste time with me, you sure are putting a lot of stock into replying, and talking about a kinship I'm no longer in. Why not just go back to your regular whining, instead of bringing up some kin drama I was not, nor have any desire to be, a part of. They certainly showed me more substance in the short time I was with them than your posts ever have.
    Edit stupid flame wars are stupid. Carry on.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    Edit stupid flame wars are stupid. Carry on.
    Aww, and I was so looking forward to your next post making some big claim without any substance, all while ignoring specific points in the post you were replying to, and then ending the post with "not worth the time to reply".
    Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    You're the only person I've ever heard of who didn't like the Moria launch.
    I quit the game because Moria sucked so badly. Disjointed, clunky content, terrible itemization, terrible build system (it wasn't until Mirkwood that the trait system ironed itself back out), and more mindless grind-humping than you could shake a stick at. And before you ask: Yes, I quit before the Book 7 nerfs were even announced.

    Oh, and the class balance (mostly thanks to the LI system) was unequivocally the worst it's ever been in the history of the game. When "5 hunters and a minstrel" is not only a viable strategy but the best possible strategy for every bit of content in the game, there's something terribly wrong.

    Of the 3 classes I played at MoM launch (burglar, hunter, and guardian), all three of them were atrocious. Everything became immune to crowd control and the wonderfully balanced LI system made 1-handed weapons effectively worthless, so the burg was dead right out of the gates. I can't stand how guards play in Overpower, so I slogged up to 53 or so using sword and board (which is maybe half as effective as DWing on a burglar). Oh, and resist rates were through the roof, so neither guards nor burgs could reliably function in a group setting.

    Hunter had it the best of the three, but considering the class became "S:S or you're wrong" overnight and any tertiary abilities (CC, mostly) were absolutely worthless, the class went from a mind-numbingly simplistic one that I could at least put up with to the proverbial 1-1-2 AFK DD class that everyone always accused it of being.

    I won't get into the design and feel of the place, as that's pretty irrelevant to the conversation, but I will say that the mechanics were less of an issue for me than the atmosphere.

    That enough Moria-hate for you?
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  11. #36
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    Begun, the Flame Wars have...


  12. #37
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    Good lord, what did I start?
    Tycho Gilcrist - 85 Man Hunter - The Noldor

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by lwk1138 View Post
    Good lord, what did I start?
    Heh. A typical thread on the hunter forums, from the looks of it. Wouldn't be the hunter boards if people weren't lighting each others' pubes on fire and running around like spazmonkeys.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWood View Post
    Heh. A typical thread on the hunter forums, from the looks of it. Wouldn't be the hunter boards if people weren't lighting each others' pubes on fire and running around like spazmonkeys.
    ummmmm.... the PVMP forums are thatway
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    here on the hunter forums we are more civilized.... we just QQ the living daylights out of each other.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWood View Post
    Heh. A typical thread on the hunter forums, from the looks of it. Wouldn't be the hunter boards if people weren't lighting each others' pubes on fire and running around like spazmonkeys.
    Yeah I've been gone from the forums for a looooong time, since like when you, SaintBass, Rawlor and a few other awesome people posted regularly and we all held hands and sang kumbaya. I don't remember it being this vitriolic (except for when gildhur trolled us) but maybe I've just forgotten... Is Frisco the new gildhur?

    And after posting in another thread I think I have figured out why they don't give hunters nice things, because if they did we'd all use them, and thus they'd have to take them away from us again... because that's better development that actually fixing what's wrong with the class...
    Tycho Gilcrist - 85 Man Hunter - The Noldor

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by lwk1138 View Post
    Yeah I've been gone from the forums for a looooong time, since like when you, SaintBass, Rawlor and a few other awesome people posted regularly and we all held hands and sang kumbaya. I don't remember it being this vitriolic (except for when gildhur trolled us) but maybe I've just forgotten... Is Frisco the new gildhur?
    Excuse me?

    I calmly responded to an outrageous claim with evidence to the contrary and my own opinions from personal experience. I think you may mean that ColorSpecs is responsible for the vitrol, since when he couldn't come up with anything to back his outrageous claim, he decided to try and turn things into a kinship drama war, which, even if I were still in the kinship in question, I would not stoop to.

    Try reading the thread before throwing out random suggestions.
    Last edited by Frisco; Aug 17 2012 at 11:46 AM.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    Try reading the thread before throwing out random suggestions.
    I've read the thread, I know who said what and I've tried to discern their motivations for saying it. Also, I'm not basing my opinion solely on this thread.

    Unfortunately, this thread has only 3-4 posts that actually pertain to the OP, so I am very saddened by that. I'm really happy you discovered the keystoke for ≠, it added a lot to the discussion, also thanks for keeping everyone on topic and discussing something important instead of delving into why Moria was great and/or sucked.

    Probably shouldn't have but, eat up.
    Last edited by lwk1138; Aug 17 2012 at 12:00 PM.
    Tycho Gilcrist - 85 Man Hunter - The Noldor

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWood View Post
    Of the 3 classes I played at MoM launch (burglar, hunter, and guardian), all three of them were atrocious. Everything became immune to crowd control and the wonderfully balanced LI system made 1-handed weapons effectively worthless, so the burg was dead right out of the gates. I can't stand how guards play in Overpower, so I slogged up to 53 or so using sword and board (which is maybe half as effective as DWing on a burglar). Oh, and resist rates were through the roof, so neither guards nor burgs could reliably function in a group setting.
    I agree that Guards were in a bad place at Moria launch, while the change to ratings was still being ironed out and Champs were able to do most of the tanking in Fervour...but I remember loving playing Burg. DPS was through the roof (I don't have any idea why you'd consider 1-h weapons worthless) and we could tank as well. Yes, you couldn't CC in DD. One instance out of all the content in Moria can hardly be classified as "everything".


    That enough Moria-hate for you?
    Sure, if you've said enough. I still disagree with everything I didn't quote, but that's mostly personal preference stuff. My point is still: Moria was far from a disaster at launch. It lived up to our expectations--at least my friends' and kins'--except the LI system, which was still an upgrade from non-LIs in the respect that legacies are really fun. I think we all eventually got tired of the grind, but it was fun and exciting at first, since 2nd Agers were rare.

    Yeah, Guards got hit hard. And I remember not being really excited to heal. But bugs and all, Moria was a lot of fun. The instances were well-thought-out and the voice acting alone was enough to keep me coming back. Even the landscape problems that were annoying to some didn't seem like as big a deal, since we were all in the same boat, and the mines were teeming with people to group with or ask for advice (where is bat cave?). And even with all your Moria hate and problems with itemization, I'm doubt you'll agree that scores and scores of people were moaning about losing all those Rift set bonuses.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by lwk1138 View Post
    I've read the thread, I know who said what and I've tried to discern their motivations for saying it. Also, I'm not basing my opinion solely on this thread.

    Unfortunately, this thread has only 3-4 posts that actually pertain to the OP, so I am very saddened by that. I'm really happy you discovered the keystoke for ≠, it added a lot to the discussion, also thanks for keeping everyone on topic and discussing something important instead of delving into why Moria was great and/or sucked.

    Probably shouldn't have but, eat up.
    Well, you're entitled to your opinion. I still maintain that comparing Sword & Staff changes to Hunter trait changes is tenuous at best. I'm sorry that you're upset that I brought the thread off-topic (even though I was far from the first to do it, and considering that you're *currently* doing it). It's the nature of forum threads to stray from the topic.

    Go ahead and support the people doing the name-calling and kinship bashing...I'll just stick to the issues, and if that makes you think I'm some sort of forum troll, then so be it.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    I still maintain that comparing Sword & Staff changes to Hunter trait changes is tenuous at best.
    Nope, they are buffing a trait based on the same logic that got ours nerfed. It is relevant to design philosophy. If every Hunter used Strong Draw; the trait wasn't too powerful, the skill it buffed was underpowered. The trait merely highlighted what the skill lacked, and instead of making IPS cost lest focus, and changing strong draw to be unnecessary all the time, they nerfed the trait.
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by lwk1138 View Post
    Yeah I've been gone from the forums for a looooong time, since like when you, SaintBass, Rawlor and a few other awesome people posted regularly and we all held hands and sang kumbaya. I don't remember it being this vitriolic (except for when gildhur trolled us) but maybe I've just forgotten...
    It got pretty bad at times, even back then. Amurard (can't even remember his forum name) was damn crass, and Mang (whose forum name I also can't remember), while generally much more polite, didn't take any guff. The Amurard vs. Shad0wfax arguments were some of the most entertaining threads we've had. Hell, my Focus Burn guide was written in response to a particularly nasty thread arguing S:S vs. S:E.

    I think the main differences back then were 1) there was less of a performance gap between raid-geared and AH-geared players, so we were able to discuss builds/rotations/strategies more-or-less as equals, 2) we didn't have any form of parser or (comparatively useless) DPS meter, so any comparisons were ballpark at best (anyone remember the Delossad Challenge?), and 3) there was a lot less accumulated angst/burnout/grudges in the community in general.

    Combine those and you have a disgruntled populace with a focus on performance-oriented gameplay and the tools to prove that X is right and Y is wrong, game mechanics that encourage that binary viewpoint, and the results are what we have today. Pubes on fire and all that jazz.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    I still disagree with everything I didn't quote, but that's mostly personal preference stuff.
    No problem. The only reason I mentioned it at all is you said you hadn't heard anyone complain about it, and I can't in good conscience pass up an invitation to rant about how much I hated Moria.
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by lwk1138 View Post
    Nope, they are buffing a trait based on the same logic that got ours nerfed. It is relevant to design philosophy. If every Hunter used Strong Draw; the trait wasn't too powerful, the skill it buffed was underpowered. The trait merely highlighted what the skill lacked, and instead of making IPS cost lest focus, and changing strong draw to be unnecessary all the time, they nerfed the trait.
    It is totally two pair of shoes. But you're right the reasoning is the same but the outcome is different. ZC worded poorly and did not really show many skills when communicating here.
    On the other hand though the change was rightly made, due to the huge combat changes we got with the last add-on. Now what would we do if BA and PS did still cost only two focus along with the changes to the class and the combat? We would be pressing one button on our keyboard repeatedly, which would be PS. As now with the faron set. Throw in some focus pots or a quick shot once in a while and that would be it. The change was necessary but in no way communicated in the right manner to the community.

    Right now you'll probably have about the same skill rota then before. It is all about QS, ISB and PS, jsut as before, so they did that right enough.

    With the LMs we have a legendary trait always slotted because it offers great advantages but no combat changes that would affect it like offhand damage increase of 300% if you get my meaning. You could compare it to our BotR. Always slotted for the passive effect. So if they ever did something like this it would be safe to assume that this would get a passive as well without need to slot it.
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  23. #48
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    317
    Quote Originally Posted by VincentVanPort View Post
    It is totally two pair of shoes. But you're right the reasoning is the same but the outcome is different. ZC worded poorly and did not really show many skills when communicating here.
    On the other hand though the change was rightly made, due to the huge combat changes we got with the last add-on. Now what would we do if BA and PS did still cost only two focus along with the changes to the class and the combat? We would be pressing one button on our keyboard repeatedly, which would be PS. As now with the faron set. Throw in some focus pots or a quick shot once in a while and that would be it. The change was necessary but in no way communicated in the right manner to the community.

    Right now you'll probably have about the same skill rota then before. It is all about QS, ISB and PS, jsut as before, so they did that right enough.

    With the LMs we have a legendary trait always slotted because it offers great advantages but no combat changes that would affect it like offhand damage increase of 300% if you get my meaning. You could compare it to our BotR. Always slotted for the passive effect. So if they ever did something like this it would be safe to assume that this would get a passive as well without need to slot it.
    I understand what you mean and I understood what ZC intended when he made the change, so not really sure it was all just poor wording. I agree that what ended up happening, especially with the faron set, was a wash. What I don't think people are realizing is that the PS skill was fundamentally flawed for top tier DPS (which is what hunters are) and by removing the trait, while buffing the skill, led to the skill being exactly as potent as before. Not a progressive change; regressive, especially now that the Faron set is obsolete with the level increase. Maybe it would have been OK if they had actually made some other skills more desirable to use in skill rotation while nerfing Strong Draw and PS, but they didn't do that.

    And don't discount Staff and Sword so much. It adds a lot to melee DPS, adds stats of your offhand, and a lot of morale, maybe not an increase of 300% (hyperbole much?) but It's nothing to sneeze at. Yes Strong Draw was arguably more important to hunter DPS than S&S is to LM, but come on, once again doesn't that just highlight what the skill is lacking, not what needs to be nerfed?
    Tycho Gilcrist - 85 Man Hunter - The Noldor

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Kannagi <mine>
    Posts
    3,809
    On IPS/Strong Draw:

    I'm convinced that the no-recast IPS (and possibly the Faron set, as well) was somebody's pet project, and when they realized exactly how much synergy it would have with SD, they nuked the trait rather than give up their baby. Changing IPS to something not stupidly unbalanceable and giving the raid set a less overpowered bonus are easy design decisions, whereas trying to balance the spastic dookie we ended up with is not. I'm pretty down on Turbine's dev team, but even I have a hard time believing they're that incompetent.
    [CENTER][FONT=Book Antiqua][COLOR=dimgray]::: [SIZE=3][URL="http://waywatchersofcardolan.guildportal.com"][COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=4]T[/SIZE]he [SIZE=4]W[/SIZE]aywatchers of [SIZE=4]C[/SIZE]ardolan[/COLOR][/URL] [SIZE=2]:[/SIZE] [URL="http://palantiri.guildportal.com"][COLOR=LightBlue][SIZE=4]T[/SIZE]he [SIZE=4]P[/SIZE]alantiri[/COLOR][/URL][/SIZE] :::[/COLOR][/FONT]
    [FONT=Garamond][COLOR=DimGray][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/balgr/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Balgr Snowmantle[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=Silver]: Curmudgeon[/COLOR] :[SIZE=4][COLOR=#303030].[/COLOR][/SIZE][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/saladoc/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Saladoc Willowleaf[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=Silver]: Stick-in-the-mud[/COLOR]
    [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/ciruth/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Ciruth of Gondor[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=Silver]: Itinerant Scholar[/COLOR] : [COLOR=LemonChiffon][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/halvr/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Halvr[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/khasi/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Khasi Flamebrow[/COLOR][/URL], and [COLOR=LemonChiffon]Kholi[/COLOR][COLOR=Silver]: At your service![/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT]
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray][URL="http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a346/MrPinstripes/FFXI%20Stuff/AustrevenMH21409.jpg"][COLOR=dimgray]Austreven[/COLOR][/URL][/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray][SIZE=3][COLOR=#303030].[/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray]of Cobalt (Bismarck)[/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [/CENTER]

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by VincentVanPort View Post
    You could compare it to our BotR.








    ALRIGHT...WHEW...now, that's out of the way...

    Bow of the Righteous: 11-16 power per ranged skill.

    Sword and Staff: +Parry, +Evade, +Morale, +Melee Damage, +offhand stats

    And after ROR?

    This left the legendary trait a little weak, so we have increased the morale gained and greatly increased the amount of Parry rating gained.

    IT WILL BE A PASSIVE WITH EVEN MORE MORALE AND PARRY
    My other Warhorse is a Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit,[I] Defiant-Class[/I], [I]U.S.S. Say My Name[/I], NCC-93144

 

 
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