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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk View Post
    You use Melee skills in PvP...for the sake of damage? There is no way that's what you meant.

    The only melee skill that does any decent damage is Dazing Blow/Scourging Blow (if you're removing BA), maybe Lowcut if the Bleed procs. Either way, we don't rely on Melee skills to do our damage.
    but why not have the option?

    why even have a penalty? WHAT is the POINT of having this penalty?

    that hunters should not be able to do any damage and melee and be helpless eggs when not fighting from 40m or having full focus?

    cause thats what its turned out to be (moors wise anyway)

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk View Post
    You use Melee skills in PvP...for the sake of damage? There is no way that's what you meant.

    The only melee skill that does any decent damage is Dazing Blow/Scourging Blow (if you're removing BA), maybe Lowcut if the Bleed procs. Either way, we don't rely on Melee skills to do our damage.
    I melee in PvP a lot as well. With the introduction of audacity it is quite unavoidable. Once resolute aim is down, you've got 30 seconds of good luck getting those shots off -- you have to scourging blow > BA your way to victory once dazing blow and cry (if you're fighting a warg) are off as well.

    And if you're not standing within melee range for PvE boss battles (exception of shadow), you're not being smart. If you rip aggro and you're in the right range, you can run through and avoid a wipe. If you're standing far enough back to do ranged completely, you won't be able to run through boss before he attacks and (most likely) kills 3-4 squishies.

    Melee auto attacks do matter more than ranged auto attacks, whether we like it or not.
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  3. #53
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    Two thoughts:

    1) Perhaps it's a bug.

    2) Hunters aren't as proficient in melee combat as Champions and Burglars are, so perhaps the penalty is there to reflect the fact that you're doing something that you're not very good at.

    (Please note that I'm not saying, "You're not supposed to melee anyway, who cares?" - I'm saying that you're attempting to fight in a style that you just don't practice, and so (maybe) you do less damage as a result.)

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bond007 View Post
    I melee in PvP a lot as well. With the introduction of audacity it is quite unavoidable. Once resolute aim is down, you've got 30 seconds of good luck getting those shots off -- you have to scourging blow > BA your way to victory once dazing blow and cry (if you're fighting a warg) are off as well.

    And if you're not standing within melee range for PvE boss battles (exception of shadow), you're not being smart. If you rip aggro and you're in the right range, you can run through and avoid a wipe. If you're standing far enough back to do ranged completely, you won't be able to run through boss before he attacks and (most likely) kills 3-4 squishies.

    Melee auto attacks do matter more than ranged auto attacks, whether we like it or not.
    Seeing as all creeps are immune to cry and dazing blow due to pots and emblems and a warg can take 8k morale from you whilst you are stunned - dont se how melee skills are relevant at all .

    Any hunter staying in melee range for a boss fight is wasting their fellowships time - sure stay close but just out of melee range so that you can at least dps .

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaGranny View Post
    Seeing as all creeps are immune to cry and dazing blow due to pots and emblems and a warg can take 8k morale from you whilst you are stunned - dont se how melee skills are relevant at all .

    Any hunter staying in melee range for a boss fight is wasting their fellowships time - sure stay close but just out of melee range so that you can at least dps .
    no warg can do that and if he does: you really need mitigation and audacity.
    hunters are quite decent at melee given the class, thats one of the things I enjoy on my hunter that I am deadly in melee aswell however I wouldnt mind if swift stroke was a little bit faster
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  6. #56
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    I'll sign. Its a small boost that will make us ever so slightly less wimpy in melee range (pvmp) while not really breaking anything in PvE.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Bond007 View Post
    I melee in PvP a lot as well. With the introduction of audacity it is quite unavoidable. Once resolute aim is down, you've got 30 seconds of good luck getting those shots off -- you have to scourging blow > BA your way to victory once dazing blow and cry (if you're fighting a warg) are off as well.
    Interesting. I don't do that. I kite (PvP relic swap LI for this) and/or spam Focus shots.

    And if you're not standing within melee range for PvE boss battles (exception of shadow), you're not being smart. If you rip aggro and you're in the right range, you can run through and avoid a wipe. If you're standing far enough back to do ranged completely, you won't be able to run through boss before he attacks and (most likely) kills 3-4 squishies.

    Melee auto attacks do matter more than ranged auto attacks, whether we like it or not.
    Uhh...no. You can be close enough to the boss to quickly react if you grab aggro and still be out of melee AA range. You made it sound as though you were spamming Swift Strike and stuff in raid fights trying to DPS.

    I don't think it'd be a bad change, I just don't think it occupies any modicum of priority.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    Two thoughts:

    1) Perhaps it's a bug.
    It's WAI, it is from when they integrated the old yellow trait Bow & Blade into a passive.
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  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk View Post
    Uhh...no. You can be close enough to the boss to quickly react if you grab aggro and still be out of melee AA range. You made it sound as though you were spamming Swift Strike and stuff in raid fights trying to DPS.
    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...01#post6352901
    - bottom part.

    Besides, why? Does "more unnecessary risk" sound good enough to justify such choice? Is it so convenient to switch range for each DD phase? Furthermore - are we forgetting about self - rooting animations Hunter is full of? All that "forced range, but still minimal range" adds is more randomness *shrug*.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk View Post
    It's WAI, it is from when they integrated the old yellow trait Bow & Blade into a passive.
    Blue. Given the history and counter - intuitive placement of melee traits in Huntsman line - and whole "melee ideology" debacle, using "WAI" is more than risky. It's more like WAA - Working As Abandoned.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferthcott View Post
    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...01#post6352901
    - bottom part.

    Besides, why? Does "more unnecessary risk" sound good enough to justify such choice? Is it so convenient to switch range for each DD phase? Furthermore - are we forgetting about self - rooting animations Hunter is full of? All that "forced range, but still minimal range" adds is more randomness *shrug*.
    There is no real difference for me in being just outside of melee range and in it. No randomness. But you're saying melee AA's do more damage? Would be worth being in melee then...I'd never have dreamed for that to be true though. Are you sure about that? I guess AoW would be more expedient for melee AAs...is this with a max DPS LI in melee and an FA bow? I need to test that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferthcott View Post
    Blue. Given the history and counter - intuitive placement of melee traits in Huntsman line - and whole "melee ideology" debacle, using "WAI" is more than risky. It's more like WAA - Working As Abandoned.
    Oh. It was Blue. I can remember laughing at a Rapid Recovery/Bow & Blade build. I wonder what was Barbed Hindrance before...well whatever. I'll totally grant you it was a weird and then neglected change. I don't think anyone has been happy with the state of our traits since the last time they messed with them. A lot of the Reds don't make sense nor do the Blues and the Yellows are just bad. I for one am even peeved at how bad our 4x bonus is...RKs are a better example of how that should be done but even then I don't like it. It doesn't allow for much build diversity and stuff like PS Dmg being a blue has solidified most players into running exclusively Fleetness. But I'm going off on a tangent.
    Last edited by PhantomPunkk; Aug 14 2012 at 07:37 PM.
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  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post
    i agree with the OP. remove the dual wield penalty. 80% mainhand, 60% offhand damage... it used to be a blue class trait until they made it a passive skill... and it only affects our melee skills, which happen to cost more power and due less total damage than quick shot. this trait should be altered to be 100% mainhand, 100% offhand, at least for agile rejoinder (an "extremely damaging" melee attack that does less damage than quick shot for 3x the power), and scourging blow (which is supposed to also do alot of damage). right now, our melee auto attacks (zero power) do MORE damage than any of our melee skills, except for dazing blow or blindside.

    as others have said, we don't have a pet to tank for us, and since we don't have a pet, that pet also can't DPS either. allowing our melee skills to actually DO damage instead of

    i find it really interesting that so many in the hunter community complain about how useless our melee skills are, but at the same time, scorn those of us who ask for the melee skills to be made useful.

    standing in melee vs standing at range:
    i've tested melee auto attacks vs ranges auto attacks on the training dummies, and found that on average, melee auto attacks do 50-100 more DPS than ranged (at level 75, with maxxed 2nd age (3 starlit crystals) with methathol offhand, and 32k physical mastery.)

    i've also found that standing in melee, using scourging blow immediately before barbed arrow means more damage as well (since scourging blow's animation replaces barbed arrow's induction)

    so yes, to do the most DPS, a hunter needs to stand in melee immediately behind the target.
    Hmm just as an observation, was the damage as a result of the focus accumulation from ranged auto attack crit/devs (when traited with that lovely blue trait) taken into account? I usually try to stay out of melee range for that reason so im curious.
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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk View Post
    Interesting. I don't do that. I kite (PvP relic swap LI for this) and/or spam Focus shots.
    are u macroing lis with low cut relics and old pvp set?

    personally i'm against doing such things, it puts player who can/are able to gimpse the game in some way that allows for unintended gameplay in a much better position than player who just play the game normally (old draig+faron exploit anyone?)

    u could as well macro faron for fleetness bonus, watcher for full time needful haste etc, but i don't feel that's a good way to play a game and shouldn't be a base point upon which build balance

    personally i use most of my melee skills when fightig reavers and wargs, i would like them to be all closer in damage to blindside and dazing blow instead of being utterly weak
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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exion_Blade View Post
    Hmm just as an observation, was the damage as a result of the focus accumulation from ranged auto attack crit/devs (when traited with that lovely blue trait) taken into account? I usually try to stay out of melee range for that reason so im curious.
    Afaik, auto attack crits do not generate focus.
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  13. #63
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    hmm.. I have many classes, some of which are mentioned in a dual-wield comparison here.

    to the arguments against:
    does not a champion receive bonuses to wielding melee weapons due to his specialties?
    does not a burg receive bonuses from using them in his specialties (stealth and position bonuses)?

    then why does a hunter receive melee penalties instead of just being average?

    -----------------------------------------------

    A LM also can dual wield staff and sword, and one CANNOT argue that is their specialty, like some have tried with champ and burg....

    they get the same auto-attack -20% main-hand penalty as ALL dual wielding classes.
    but do NOT get a penalty to dual-wield skills like hunters do.

    improved staff strike (yes this is not a dual wield skill, but wanted to try the numbers there anyway, just to see) (minute increases for dual wield due to stats on off-hand weapon)

    staff only
    1541 crit
    dual wield
    1554 crit


    result: no penalty.




    improved staff sweep - this is a dual wield skill


    Staff only
    crit 879
    dual wield
    crit 882


    result: no penalty.





    auto attack


    staff only
    crit 719
    dual wield
    crit 580

    result: -20% damage from main-hand - as ALL melee dual wields experience


    Conclusion: remove the (unfair?, unintended?) penalty from hunter melee dual wield skills.
    Last edited by Pdt_the_Confused; Aug 14 2012 at 09:19 PM.
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  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk View Post
    There is no real difference for me in being just outside of melee range and in it. No randomness.
    Basically, the bigger the distance, the more changes in boss position when you are stuck mid - animation and he is already aggroing. Given the potency of each frontal AoE swipe, even additional second is unnecessary. It's still negligible in 95% situations - but here comes that dps part I quoted.

    I didn't bother to get, cap and crystalize melee FA myself - but I can tell you this: FA bow w/o crystals gives me 300-ish dps on pure AA - usually lower, 280 after 5 min, then I gave up - annoying dummy resets are probably responsible for wide margins. Melee SA w/o crystals & Metathol give me... 300 - ish results, consistently 20 - 30 higher. (also, I am officially done with dummies until RoR arrives >.<) While Metathol AA has correct Dev magnitude, melee LI is bugged and offers only crit magni. Add raid - wide debuffs that tend to favour melee dps. On the top of all that, you might even add minuscule bonus from armor rend axes can provide (if there is any armor left on raid debuffed mob). With changes to Agi being contributor to pretty much everything save from Campfire radius it's not exactly surprising anyway. I figure traiting more red instead of 5b can affect results a bit, just as using S:S.
    Last edited by Ferthcott; Aug 14 2012 at 10:31 PM.

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Cilladh View Post
    are u macroing lis with low cut relics and old pvp set?

    personally i'm against doing such things, it puts player who can/are able to gimpse the game in some way that allows for unintended gameplay in a much better position than player who just play the game normally (old draig+faron exploit anyone?)

    u could as well macro faron for fleetness bonus, watcher for full time needful haste etc, but i don't feel that's a good way to play a game and shouldn't be a base point upon which build balance

    personally i use most of my melee skills when fightig reavers and wargs, i would like them to be all closer in damage to blindside and dazing blow instead of being utterly weak
    Yes, I macro. It doesn't really afford an unfair advantage given the fundamental limits Lotro has on macros. You can't actually equip or deequip more than 1 item at a time, so a fast clicker and someone using a macro are essentially the same. It is convenient, sure. But nothing more.

    Mind you I just swap my LI in this case, macroing an entire armor set is a bit ambitious given the circumstances...but I've thought about doing that =p.
    Last edited by PhantomPunkk; Aug 15 2012 at 02:10 AM.
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