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  1. #26
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    Jun 2011
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    "I would say hunters have a LOT to complain about. Heartseeker: nerfed (why even call it this anymore? Should be called toe-seeker with that &&&& damage). Dual-wielding: reduced. Merciful Shot: nerfed. Threat legacies: scaled for lvl 65. Agile Rejoiner: scaled for level 65. Hunter's Art: &&&&. Split shot: junk. Strength Stance: nerfed. "

    You forgot quick shot - which isn't and the nerf to swift bow on all arrows and the huge nerf on arrow 3.

    I echo the HS comment - the tooltip is just wrong - I remember all those years ago in Carn Dum reading "The Giant Slug Evaded you Heart Seeker" and nowadays if you actually use it your dps drops ! 3kish from swiftbow in 2 secs induction ( or less) 3.5k from hs in 3 secs induction
    so in 6 secs SB does 9k HS does 7k HS has a 2 min CD SB has a 10 sec cd .... and they hit as often as each other . Which would you use ?

    Forgot to mention - even with a preety modest 20% crit chance - in those 6 sec you would have on aveage 1 4/5 crits with sb and 2/5 with hs - and rememebr SB was nerfed down to this . HS is no longer viable
    Last edited by NinjaGranny; Aug 11 2012 at 06:44 PM.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cilladh View Post
    do we need melee skills? we have 6 why aren't u proposing to remove them? do champions need a bow with a bow skill? why don't we propose to remove it too?
    When did I say we should remove them ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilladh View Post
    what we are discussing here is a specifical penalty to our class that isn't shared by other classes with the same setup (dual-weilding)
    Same setup? Oh, come on not another comparison between Hunters and Cham- oh dear lord here we go again ..

    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    Champs may not need ranged skills because they can get into melee, but hunters may need melee skills because we cannot ALWAYS get OUT of melee.
    Yelling does not make statements more or less true, seriously it starts getting rather annoying.

    Sure we can't get out of every situation alive, if we could this game would be boring. And comparing ranged and melee classes is not really a 'FACT' honestly ...

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaGranny View Post
    I echo the HS comment - the tooltip is just wrong - I remember all those years ago in Carn Dum reading "The Giant Slug Evaded you Heart Seeker" and nowadays if you actually use it your dps drops ! 3kish from swiftbow in 2 secs induction ( or less) 3.5k from hs in 3 secs induction so in 6 secs SB does 9k HS does 7k HS has a 2 min CD SB has a 10 sec cd .... and they hit as often as each other . Which would you use ?
    Nah, the only thing that is missing is that tiny part from Agile Rejoinder - not sure whether correcting secondary typos should be a priority, but it does leave bad impression. And as for things that could make it on par with ISB...

    I still wonder what happened to "Shot through the Heart" idea - is it considered "meh, borked, but no time to fix it" or "working as intended, move along". Or better yet - "nah, Heartseeker properly buffed by other skills would be too epic (conclusion)". Nice derail btw

  4. #29
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    I agree totally, but just today I was musing about what Hunters would have left to cry about now that the RoR Dev diary was out. Melee damage was on my short list, along with pets and the missing pip of Strength of the Earth power.
    Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    FACT:
    Melee combat is part of Hunter gameplay






    FACT:
    Hunter intro Video clearly states that melee skills are for finishing off your foe in melee






    FACT:
    It has never been effective for its purpose for the past 5 years, so most hunter believe it to not be part of hunter playstyle






    FACT:
    Champs may not need ranged skills because they can get into melee, but hunters may need melee skills because we cannot ALWAYS get OUT of melee


    My other Warhorse is a Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit,[I] Defiant-Class[/I], [I]U.S.S. Say My Name[/I], NCC-93144

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombielord View Post
    Same setup? Oh, come on not another comparison between Hunters and Cham- oh dear lord here we go again ..
    Same setup, dual wielding skill melee skill that works in the same way, when we add an off-hand weapon the damage of our skills drops to 80% main-hand 60% off-hand due to an old trait that's now a hidden passive coded somewhere.....

    think if something similar happened to blade wall or wild attack.... or to any other class that dual-wields (burgs and lms) would u be happy?

  7. #32
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    All Hunter skills that benefit from dual wield get one Off-Hand attack in addition to one Main-Hand attack, so you get a 40% damage bonus, what you want is a 100% bonus. Now Champions' skills are different for example savage strike goes from main-main to main-main-off, brutal strike goes from main-main-main to main-main-off and remorseless strike goes from main to main-off, but the main attack is empowered. Also Champions can use 2H-Weapons, so any benefit from dual wield has to be compared to this.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by fusei View Post
    All Hunter skills that benefit from dual wield get one Off-Hand attack in addition to one Main-Hand attack, so you get a 40% damage bonus, what you want is a 100% bonus. Now Champions' skills are different for example savage strike goes from main-main to main-main-off, brutal strike goes from main-main-main to main-main-off and remorseless strike goes from main to main-off, but the main attack is empowered. Also Champions can use 2H-Weapons, so any benefit from dual wield has to be compared to this.
    wild attack goes from main to main + off, blade wall goes from main to main + off, blade storm goes from main to main + off, raging blades and remorsless gain a third off-hand attack

    none of these skills has any weapon damage reduction applied when they gain an extra off-hand attack from dual-wielding

    of course this is required for champions because if there was such a penalty all champs would go 2handed, as they have the choice


    we don't have any other choice than dual-wield, the problem is that this penalty is applied to 4/6 skills, dazing blow for example is an exlusive dual-wield skill we have that can't be used with only main-hand but it keeps full damage contribution from both main and off hand, so the penalty is not applied to that skill even if it's a dw skill

    i want these skills to behave like champ's wild atttack, blade wall etc, or burglar's Double-edged Strike, Flashing Blades
    we are the only class to get such a damage reduction

    if we have to get a penalty at least we shouldn't have it on the main-hand damage, leave main-hand contribution at 100% with 60 or 80% from off-hand, it's quite weird for this skills to behave like that for a old trait the devs gave us as a passive we can't see anywhere....

    the first impression is i equip an off hand weapon -> main-hand damage goes down by 20%, why?
    Last edited by Cilladh; Aug 12 2012 at 09:21 AM.

  9. #34
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    Jul 2011
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    Quick test on stangard dummies

    only main hand

    Cilladh scored a devastating hit with Swift Stroke on the Training-dummy for 1,048 Beleriand damage to Morale.

    dual-wielding

    Cilladh scored a devastating hit with Swift Stroke on the Training-dummy for 817 Beleriand damage to Morale.
    Cilladh scored a devastating hit with Swift Stroke on the Training-dummy for 608 Beleriand damage to Morale.


    the damage increase is 36% but u have also to assume that the chance of critting both attacks is equal to the chance of critting a single attack which is not true, a real parse of skill damage would probabily show a 30% damage increase from dw, which is quite low

    if we could have at least the main-hand damage be the same with and without an off-hand that would be a great improvement

  10. #35
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    Sorry I aired views on removing melee totally as OP said this isnt the thread for it

    I tested on dummies too and I wont put the actual dps as I haven't bothered to put and points into damage on legendary so that I could up the useful legacies so melee dps is low

    Main hand only vs Dual weild
    100 attacks on each
    main hand drops by 30% in dual weild mode
    offhand drops by 30% in duel weild mode
    for autos
    for skills 20 of each
    drop by 25% for main and offhand in duel weild

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cilladh View Post
    we've got nowhere any mention of the 80% mainhand -60% offhand damage, i think since dual-wielding is no more a choice but a need and we get that effect passively there should be no penalty on our melee skills
    the reason we don't have any mention of the penalty is because it was listed in the actually "bow and blade" class trait tooltip, which has obviously been removed from the game. the penalty still remains, however, which is evident by tooltips single wielding vs dual wielding

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferthcott View Post
    Every time someone writes "but... but... Hunters have 40m range! *random blahblahblah*" their browser should automatically redirect itself to this post.
    BACON!
    Last edited by Forgotten_Legend; Aug 12 2012 at 08:41 PM.
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  12. #37
    It may take another 3 addons, likely even never, till the hunter class stops suffering from the disaster of Moria.

    Back then when someone not so smart came up with the idea to normalize every class, have three traitlines, multiple roles, without actually wanting to give out skills for those roles, rather than just pu..nishing actually existing skills into colors.

    And since not enough damage has been done with the changes in combat stats (ratings, hey my parry and evade just dropped by 80%! yAY!) and class traitlines, he finished it off with the grand idea of a LEGENDARY MELEE WEAPON and a useless class slot.

    Haven't expecially the Loremasters been moaning they needed to level DPS on their items?
    Guess who is still leveling (or not at all - we rather spend points into Legacies than melee dps, which should tell everything one needs to know about a failed implementation) a useless item's DPS!

    Yes, you might guessed it, it's the Hunter.
    Last edited by SungXe; Aug 13 2012 at 05:27 AM.
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  13. #38
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    Sounds probably silly, but I wouldnt mind if hunters could use a 2h weapon like a sword
    "I should call that a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say he did, standing over the body of King Brand before the gate of Erebor, until the darkness fell."
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  14. #39
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    /signed Agree, dual-wielding is dual-wielding. The penalty should be removed.

  15. #40
    This is likely the result from them making the old Bow & Blade trait a passive. It used to be you didn't use both your weapons for a skill, and the trait would make your MH do 80% of it's regular dmg and the OH 60% or something like that. I never understood it's utility as your skill effects don't have an increased chance to proc (maybe Lowcut bleed does if you have the legacy...) and if anything it adds more liability, giving the attacks more of a chance to be BPE.

    But I don't care. We're not a melee class. You don't do damage from your melee skills. You use them for their corresponding effects, be they slows or dazes or focus or whatever.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk View Post
    But I don't care. We're not a melee class. You don't do damage from your melee skills. You use them for their corresponding effects, be they slows or dazes or focus or whatever.
    I use melee a lot...its nearly impossible not to in the moors for one, and if used carefully it can be a boost in raids.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0b20c000000069736/01005/signature.png]Smugo[/charsig]

  17. #42
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    Hmmm, does that math work out with only using one weapon?

    To be honest I was always bothered by hunters doing the same dual-wield as Champs.

    I suppose at least you lose the stats from the off-hand weapon.

  18. #43
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    I just have one thing to say about this whole thread and people saying the melee weapons are stupid and what not. Think about it guys. This class was inspired by the Elf Legolas. What weapons did Legolas use? A bow, but ALSO two melee knives/short swords. And if anyone remembers the LoTR trilogy there are many many times to where he uses those knives. The beginning of the fight at Helm's Deep is just one example. So to re-iterate, we have melee weapons because this class was inspired by Legolas, since he used two melee weapons.
    [Jonp - Rank 11 Hunter] [Garaluk - Rank 9 Reaver]

  19. #44
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    I don't get why Hunters should get 100% on each hand or even on the main hand just because they have dual wield, it's neither common nor logical. In an other game you get a serious penalty to your chance to hit on both hands for dual wielding and you have to pick several skills to reduce this and make it a viable option (but it can't be fully negated). If you ever try to 'dual wield' youself you will notice that it takes considerable training to just move both arms in a coordinated manner and much more to do it in a way that you would trust your life to, so for a Champion it's all they do, learn to kill things that stand closeby, for Hunters it's a rather small part of their repertoire, which they can do but not nearly as good as someone who does it all the time.

  20. #45
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    /Signed

    We really need less penalties for wielding an off-hand, I really didn't knew about this and well why do devs feel the need to not fix hunter is beyond me, most of population is hunters as one of the most played classes!

  21. #46
    I don't really get the point of the complaints to tell you the truth.

    I've had multiple hunters to cap at this point and none of them have ever had problems doing excellent DPS or killing signature mobs or any of that. In the Foundry I kill smelters before they reach me most of the time although Scourging Blow followed by Barbed Arrow definitely takes them down if they get to me.

    I've gone back and forth on whether or not I want to be in melee range of mobs during boss fights. The animations for the melee auto-attacks definitely disturb whatever rotation of skills I'm using. Not critically so but when you get to top-end sustained DPS every little thing hurts a bit. When I stand off of the mob the melee animations don't go off and it's much easier to manage the auto-shoot animation in rotations. I find that the DPS is about the same both ways although slightly higher at range most of the time. So I stand at melee range when I'm needed to blindside an induction and I usually stand off a bit if not.

    At lower levels, before all of the ranged damage skills kick in and make any non-elite mob an auto-kill before it closes, Scourging Blow is what usually kills a mob as it closes in.

    I guess I'd like to be able to do dual-wield damage like a champion or a burglar but I'm sure they'd like to be killing stuff before it gets within 15 yards of them also. It's a trade-off. The only place I feel at all inconvenienced by my inability to do top-end melee DPS is in PvMP and hey that's just what it is. If something closes with me there the odds are pretty good they're going to kill me.

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by guitarguy12410 View Post
    I just have one thing to say about this whole thread and people saying the melee weapons are stupid and what not. Think about it guys. This class was inspired by the Elf Legolas. What weapons did Legolas use? A bow, but ALSO two melee knives/short swords. And if anyone remembers the LoTR trilogy there are many many times to where he uses those knives. The beginning of the fight at Helm's Deep is just one example. So to re-iterate, we have melee weapons because this class was inspired by Legolas, since he used two melee weapons.
    Nobody is disputing the lore, its the math thats in dispute.
    I for one, dont care about stats and a few perecentage points here and there, if its fun to play, then play it.
    if not, move to a different character, or game...

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by fusei View Post
    I don't get why Hunters should get 100% on each hand or even on the main hand just because they have dual wield, it's neither common nor logical. In an other game you get a serious penalty to your chance to hit on both hands for dual wielding and you have to pick several skills to reduce this and make it a viable option (but it can't be fully negated). If you ever try to 'dual wield' youself you will notice that it takes considerable training to just move both arms in a coordinated manner and much more to do it in a way that you would trust your life to, so for a Champion it's all they do, learn to kill things that stand closeby, for Hunters it's a rather small part of their repertoire, which they can do but not nearly as good as someone who does it all the time.
    now let's not start talking about what a class can do and what not, there's a lot of other things champions do, for example they can use 2-handers which has a totally different combat style and don't have to do any traiting changes when passing from dw to 2-handers

    if there was traits and such to do so and we could chose whatever to pick ect it would be all good, but if u look at skills and passive now there's no reason why we should keep this penalty

    we have dual wielding from lvl 1 like champs and there's no other passives/traits that make any difference in dual-wielding, it's something now only hard-coded hiddenly, when u look at your skills u add an off-hand and main-hand damage drops to 80% without any reasonable explanation in game. This also doesn't apply to 2 other skills we have, blindside and dazing blow and the latter is a dual wield skill
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  24. #49
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    Now seeing loremasters gets dual wielding and sword training as passives at lvl 40, don't u guys think that this strenghtens our request of having our 4 dual-wielding skills currently doing 80%-60% dmg (much less than the other 2 melee skills we have blinside and dazing blow that are full dmg contribution) to be improved at least on main-hand damage?
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  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Smugo View Post
    I use melee a lot...its nearly impossible not to in the moors for one, and if used carefully it can be a boost in raids.
    You use Melee skills in PvP...for the sake of damage? There is no way that's what you meant.

    The only melee skill that does any decent damage is Dazing Blow/Scourging Blow (if you're removing BA), maybe Lowcut if the Bleed procs. Either way, we don't rely on Melee skills to do our damage.
    Last edited by PhantomPunkk; Aug 14 2012 at 04:30 PM.
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