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  1. #1
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    PETITION: Remove dual-weilding penalty

    Many hunters might have never noticed since we always dual wield, but we get a massive penalty to the main-hand damage of 4 of our melee skills: swift stroke, scourging blow, low cut and agile rejoinder

    other dual-wielding classes don't share this problem, let's see what happens to a champion



    now equipping an off-hand doesn't lower main-hand damage, actually it's sligthly increased due to stat bonuses



    let's see what happens with our hunter, we'll look at swift stroke, but the same applies to the other skills even our "high-damaging" agile rejoinder that loses around 200 top-end main-hand damage



    now equipping an off-hand as everybody does.... results in 136 less top-end mainhand damage




    since now we have dual-wielding from level 1 i don't understand why we must suffer this penalty which is not shared by other dw classes, please fix these skills by removing dual-wielding damage penalty (it's approximately a 20% dmg reduction)
    Last edited by Cilladh; Aug 11 2012 at 09:42 AM.

  2. #2
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    Hm, never noticed that but hands down .. do we need melee damage? We don't have bows/crossbows just because they look cool.

  3. #3
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    do we need melee skills? we have 6 why aren't u proposing to remove them? do champions need a bow with a bow skill? why don't we propose to remove it too?

    we have the skills that we have and it's up to us to make the best use of them, what we are discussing here is a specifical penalty to our class that isn't shared by other classes with the same setup (dual-weilding), it's quite simply unfair

  4. #4
    And why can't my Lore-master dual wield staffs? Or use his sword in his main hand and blah blah blah...

    Hunters are NOT a melee class...get over it. You use a bow, your melee skills are back up for emergency use.

    Be grateful maybe you get to actually use 2 Legendary weapons....
    Likes to heal and thinks she is good at it. Unfortunately, can't heal stupid or bad builds...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maviarab View Post
    And why can't my Lore-master dual wield staffs? Or use his sword in his main hand and blah blah blah...

    Hunters are NOT a melee class...get over it. You use a bow, you're melee skills are back up for emergency use.

    Be grateful maybe you get to actually use 2 Legendary weapons....
    pointless everyone has 2 legendary items, and since 1 of our items is actually a melee weapon, and we have legacies that affect melee skills, part of our class is still melee from design

  6. #6
    Correction.

    You have two legendary 'weapons'...

    Can I? Why not? Is that not unfair also? Why can't I choose whether I want 2 legendary weapons, or a weapon and and an Item?

    Next you be whining it's unfair you don't get a legendary item too...

    Live with it. You have melee skills, when you are NOT (again, as you obviously missed it the first time) a melee class.
    Likes to heal and thinks she is good at it. Unfortunately, can't heal stupid or bad builds...

  7. #7
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    Would be nice to get rid of melee skills totally and have our legendary moved to our class slot - that would give us a hundred more ag and some morale etc. light shield would be nice but never gonna happen .

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maviarab View Post
    Correction.

    You have two legendary 'weapons'...

    Can I? Why not? Is that not unfair also? Why can't I choose whether I want 2 legendary weapons, or a weapon and and an Item?

    Next you be whining it's unfair you don't get a legendary item too...

    Live with it. You have melee skills, when you are NOT (again, as you obviously missed it the first time) a melee class.
    no i'm not whining about not having something other classes have, i'm whining about a penalty for something we have by design

    please avoid going off topic, here i'm talking about classes that have the dual wielding passive skill from level 1 (thoughts from burgs and champions are well welcomed), hunters have a damage penality on 4/6 skills (something that's not even written somewhere) while the other 2 physical dual-weilding classes don't have it, the plain and simple question is why?

    if u want to flame about loremasters please go to your own class forum, thanks

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maviarab View Post
    And why can't my Lore-master dual wield staffs? Or use his sword in his main hand and blah blah blah...
    u can't dual wield staffs because staffs are considered a 2handed/mainhand weapons by the game, same reason why we can't dual wield spears for example (spear is considered mainhand weapon)

    u can use a sword in ur main hand with the legendary trait (at least u could, i don't know if they changed it) but then u lose most of your skills because u miss ur staff that is the channel-item for your magical power (lore-wise)


    since ur reading this thread would u be willing to give some help? i assume u have a high level loremaster (mine is only 25 :-( ) with the legendary trait, can u check the damage on the tooltip for staff-strike and staff-sweep and see if it has such drastic changes when u equip and enequip your off-hand sword?
    Last edited by Cilladh; Aug 11 2012 at 10:57 AM.

  10. #10
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    If I get you right your main point is a comparision between classes that share one property, but are very different otherwise.

    I think you got it right yourself with this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cilladh View Post
    we have the skills that we have and it's up to us to make the best use of them (full stop)

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by fusei View Post
    If I get you right your main point is a comparision between classes that share one property, but are very different otherwise.
    what i'm trying to figure out is why and where there's this damage penalty, it has to be hard-coded somewhere hidden, it also applies to auto-attacks

    with an off-hand equipped (main hand damage)

    Cilladh scored a devastating hit with a melee attack on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 406 Beleriand damage to Morale.

    without off-hand

    Cilladh scored a devastating hit with a melee attack on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 496 Beleriand damage to Morale.


    my champ Nagrod

    with off-hand equipped (main hand-damage)

    Nagrod scored a critical hit with a melee attack on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 85 Common damage to Morale.
    (still trying to get a dev, to many misses on +15 levels target)

    without off-hand

    Nagrod scored a critical hit with a melee attack on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 105 Common damage to Morale.
    Nagrod scored a devastating hit with a melee attack on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 134 Common damage to Morale.

    so even champs have this penalty on auto-attacks, but not on skills, so we must have it hard-coded both as a passive and in skill-damage calculation
    Last edited by Cilladh; Aug 11 2012 at 11:44 AM.

  12. #12
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    I think I agree with the poster. There should be no penalty for dual-wielding. It's not called "Almost dual-wielding". Either you can dual-wield, or you can't. People who say hunters aren't a melee class.... really? You think all hunters should be ranged only? Since the current game mechanics allow burgs, champs, RKs AND Loremasters to do nearly the same DPS as hunters (excluding those hunters that are super-agility-equipped) AND have additional class benefits, I think hunters could stand a little more melee DPS.

    A hunter's job is ranged DPS. They are supposed to be the quintessential, pure DPS nuking class. That's all they do (we won't even talk about fellowship poison cure, since you need a pile of DPS-reducing traits in the yellow line, and burgs can do it without DPS penalty :P). With current and upcoming changes, I would say the hunter is starting to become an optional class in raids. They're squishy and low-mitigation (with everything focused on agility, that leaves your might-based mitigations at almost nothing). Now the other classes can DPS significantly AND have other skills (CC, healing, heavy armour, etc).

    I would say hunters have a LOT to complain about. Heartseeker: nerfed (why even call it this anymore? Should be called toe-seeker with that &&&& damage). Dual-wielding: reduced. Merciful Shot: nerfed. Threat legacies: scaled for lvl 65. Agile Rejoiner: scaled for level 65. Hunter's Art: &&&&. Split shot: junk. Strength Stance: nerfed.

  13. #13
    ./signed. Yes we do need melee damage. Not all hunters have 4 tanks and 10 million heals following them around everywhere. And i for one think it is unfair to be PENALIZED when other classes are NOT. Let the flamin and trollin begin
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/072060000001edd29/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  14. #14
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    ok after several testing on the dummies i came to the following conclusions:

    all classes have about 20% damage penalty applied to autoattacks when dual-wielding


    only hunter has 20% damage penality to 4/6 melee skills' damage while dual-wielding (i tested my burg too, and he sees no damage changes on tooltip with or without an off-hand, waiting for some loremaster to test staff skills)


    comment of a champ in-game: "that's weird"
    Last edited by Cilladh; Aug 11 2012 at 12:09 PM.

  15. #15
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    Actually, in consideration, the fleetness line puts A LOT of focus on our melee skills making us not so useless in melee. We are dual-wielding class off the gate, and the penalty really does not make sense. We have melee damage legacies, melee cd traits, melee damage modifiers. We are a dual wielding class. We're still not going to obliterate anything in melee like a champ would, but not having the penalty in place and doing a bit more damage instead of being mostly a punching bag in close combat would be nice. For all of those screaming that we are not a melee class, we are aware, however, we are also an induction class with DW melee skills we'd like to do SOME damage when we do have the occasion to use them, that is what they are designed for.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maviarab View Post
    And why can't my Lore-master dual wield staffs? Or use his sword in his main hand and blah blah blah...

    Hunters are NOT a melee class...get over it. You use a bow, your melee skills are back up for emergency use.

    Be grateful maybe you get to actually use 2 Legendary weapons....
    Compared to other MMO's, hunters dont have a pet in LOTRO. Like it should be. But we shouldn't do any effective melee damage to compensate for that?
    May I suggest you try fighting without your pet on your LM and then come back here
    [center][IMG]http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t393/grapsn/1013265_608478239173945_469554244_n_zpsc9ae7993.jpg[/IMG] [/center]

    Hear me bark!

  17. #17
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    i agree with the OP. remove the dual wield penalty. 80% mainhand, 60% offhand damage... it used to be a blue class trait until they made it a passive skill... and it only affects our melee skills, which happen to cost more power and due less total damage than quick shot. this trait should be altered to be 100% mainhand, 100% offhand, at least for agile rejoinder (an "extremely damaging" melee attack that does less damage than quick shot for 3x the power), and scourging blow (which is supposed to also do alot of damage). right now, our melee auto attacks (zero power) do MORE damage than any of our melee skills, except for dazing blow or blindside.

    as others have said, we don't have a pet to tank for us, and since we don't have a pet, that pet also can't DPS either. allowing our melee skills to actually DO damage instead of

    i find it really interesting that so many in the hunter community complain about how useless our melee skills are, but at the same time, scorn those of us who ask for the melee skills to be made useful.

    standing in melee vs standing at range:
    i've tested melee auto attacks vs ranges auto attacks on the training dummies, and found that on average, melee auto attacks do 50-100 more DPS than ranged (at level 75, with maxxed 2nd age (3 starlit crystals) with methathol offhand, and 32k physical mastery.)

    i've also found that standing in melee, using scourging blow immediately before barbed arrow means more damage as well (since scourging blow's animation replaces barbed arrow's induction)

    so yes, to do the most DPS, a hunter needs to stand in melee immediately behind the target.
    Forgotten_Legend, The Baconnaire
    Malinon - 75 Champion | JAZRAIEL - 100 HUNTER | Taeran - 75 RuneKeeper

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Maviarab View Post
    Hunters are NOT a melee class...get over it. You use a bow, your melee skills are back up for emergency use.

    Be grateful maybe you get to actually use 2 Legendary weapons....
    It was also said that burgs aren't a top tier dps class, until RoI funked things up. Your point is? Things change, in LOTRO esp so regarding class roles. Maybe hunters will have a melee buff soon.

    Sigh. 2 LI weapons is not something to be grateful over. Let me put it this way. If a hunter had a LI for our class slot like LMs, burgs, champs, minis, what not, then we would be able to equip 2 melee weapons with Agil stats on them, in essence doubling the stats we have from melee now. We'd lose... nothing, because our class slot isn't holding anything with stats on it. Maybe some power/morale from the book but that would be tacked on the LI as a passive of this happened I hope.

    I am altogether annoyed by people who tell hunters "quit whining, look at all you have!" and then list off a bunch of random "advantages" that are never ACTUALLY viable. So, either tell us a real advantage (let me give you a hint, there's very few) or quit telling us to quiet down, because that's the only way things change in an MMO.
    Last edited by Bond007; Aug 11 2012 at 02:04 PM.
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  19. #19
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    FACT:
    Melee combat is part of Hunter gameplay






    FACT:
    Hunter intro Video clearly states that melee skills are for finishing off your foe in melee






    FACT:
    It has never been effective for its purpose for the past 5 years, so most hunter believe it to not be part of hunter playstyle






    FACT:
    Champs may not need ranged skills because they can get into melee, but hunters may need melee skills because we cannot ALWAYS get OUT of melee


  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    FACT:
    Melee combat is part of Hunter gameplay






    FACT:
    Hunter intro Video clearly states that melee skills are for finishing off your foe in melee






    FACT:
    It has never been effective for its purpose for the past 5 years, so most hunter believe it to not be part of hunter playstyle






    FACT:
    Champs may not need ranged skills because they can get into melee, but hunters may need melee skills because we cannot ALWAYS get OUT of melee

    Ok, so... there is nothing more to say.
    [CENTER][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/02203000000045ee5/signature.png]Namorah[/charsig][COLOR=#FFD700]
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  21. #21
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    ./signed.


    I'm actually really embarrassed and annoyed that I/we haven't noticed this before. How ridiculous. Fix this, turbine.
    Berryx - Rank 15 - Meneldor

  22. #22
    Though I agree not having a penalty would be nice, I believe the logic behind it is that due to some of our melee attacks going from 1 hit to 2, the damage is spread between the two attacks, instead of being allocated into one. For example, without any dps upgrades on my melee, my level 75 sword by itself does 354-538 damage on swift stroke, and duel wielded the attack does 261-409 on the main hand, then 215-342 on the off hand. Similarly, Low cut will do 329-513 with only the sword, and 249-397 on the main hand, and 207-334 on the off hand. So, It seems you techniqually do more damage when you combine the two attacks from duel wielding, compared to 1 hit from only a main hand. I'm guessing that's what Turbine's reasoning is.
    [b]The thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach.” - J.R.R. Tolkien[/b]

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Maviarab View Post
    And why can't my Lore-master dual wield staffs? Or use his sword in his main hand and blah blah blah...

    Hunters are NOT a melee class...get over it. You use a bow, your melee skills are back up for emergency use.

    Be grateful maybe you get to actually use 2 Legendary weapons....
    Yes they most certainly were. Hunters started as a class that needed to finish off a mob at melee. They became what we see now because we had rks and wardens come in. Hunters were good tanks at one time and modest dpsers close up that has now gone away.

    Tydalmir
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208010000043945/signature.png]Rancor[/charsig]

    Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!

  24. #24
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    from http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...eveloper-diary

    "A very exciting change is to Bow and Blade. This trait allowed the Hunter’s melee skills to utilize their off-hand weapon. This ability is being removed from the trait and will be granted to all Hunters, all the time! All Hunter melee skills will now use their main and off-hand weapon without the need for this trait."

    what was written on the trait "This enables your dual wield melee skills to have an additional strike."

    we've got nowhere any mention of the 80% mainhand -60% offhand damage, i think since dual-wielding is no more a choice but a need and we get that effect passively there should be no penalty on our melee skills
    Last edited by Cilladh; Aug 11 2012 at 02:17 PM.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post
    i agree with the OP. remove the dual wield penalty. 80% mainhand, 60% offhand damage... it used to be a blue class trait until they made it a passive skill... and it only affects our melee skills, which happen to cost more power and due less total damage than quick shot. this trait should be altered to be 100% mainhand, 100% offhand, at least for agile rejoinder (an "extremely damaging" melee attack that does less damage than quick shot for 3x the power), and scourging blow (which is supposed to also do alot of damage). right now, our melee auto attacks (zero power) do MORE damage than any of our melee skills, except for dazing blow or blindside.

    as others have said, we don't have a pet to tank for us, and since we don't have a pet, that pet also can't DPS either. allowing our melee skills to actually DO damage instead of

    i find it really interesting that so many in the hunter community complain about how useless our melee skills are, but at the same time, scorn those of us who ask for the melee skills to be made useful.

    standing in melee vs standing at range:
    i've tested melee auto attacks vs ranges auto attacks on the training dummies, and found that on average, melee auto attacks do 50-100 more DPS than ranged (at level 75, with maxxed 2nd age (3 starlit crystals) with methathol offhand, and 32k physical mastery.)

    i've also found that standing in melee, using scourging blow immediately before barbed arrow means more damage as well (since scourging blow's animation replaces barbed arrow's induction)

    so yes, to do the most DPS, a hunter needs to stand in melee immediately behind the target.
    Every time someone writes "but... but... Hunters have 40m range! *random blahblahblah*" their browser should automatically redirect itself to this post.

 

 
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