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  1. #1
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    LtC looks like winner in Rohan

    Below is my analysis of which trait lines I think benefit most from the Rohan changes and why. To say where I'm coming from, I believe that LtC with good armor is currently the strongest line, but that HOH has its points. I think LoM is currently the weakest line. I'm not prejudiced about lines per se, I used to run HOH by default, then ran LoM in the LoM era, and now mostly run LtC with occasional use of HoH.

    I think that this trend (LtC becoming more dominant) is not very good. I'd like to see things rebalanced a bit. LoM could use most love (self bubble with SoTD, more morale per vit, etc). HoH could also use a bit more healing compared to LtC as well, though it is at least closer.

    There are of course lots of unknowns. I don't address rainbow. And I don't know if there are other global changes (do we finally get 8 traits/4 legendaries for example).

    Happy to hear others opinions on my analysis below.


    Improved Skills

    Level 77 – Improved Valiant Strike:

    • 90s Cooldown, down from 120s.
    • Low Magnitude Heal over Time (HoT).
    • Hands of Healing Trait increases the HoT.
    • Fellowship-wide effect range extended to 30m from 10m.


    By giving the untraited skill its own HoT and a wider range, it should give Captains who didn’t spec healing some ability to help heal their fellows. Traiting Hands of Healing significantly improves the HoT, giving those who do spec healing more potency.
    Winner: Likely HOH. Depends on the magnitude of the HOT in HOH vs non-HOH. I’d still guess a win for HOH, as the healing set bonuses have been increasingly VS focused. The 30m radius is a huge gain, as VS often missed many fellow members in 6 mans unless you were very compact, which is often not the case with range/healing not so close to melee. This is also a big win for moors folks, as more self healing is always good. Nice for LtC and LoM as well, of course, but probably a moderate win for HOH.

    Level 80 – Improved War-cry:

    • A +5% damage bonus (melee, ranged, and tactical) is being added to the existing attack speed buff.

    According to our crack research team, more damage is better.
    Winner: LtC. LtC throws off the most defeat events by a goodly amount, so it is much easier to keep this up. Unless things are dying rapidly, it is lots easier for those traited down the LtC line to generate defeat events due to a combination of higher crit and more crit chains. It is harder for HOH/LOM to keep war cry up, as they more starkly face the choice between getting off a Rallying cry and this (yes, there is always Time of Need though). Also, jacking up the DPS of the DPS classes may make the LoM tanks job harder, so it is not an unadulterated win for the LoM anyway.

    Level 83 – Inspiring Blade of Elendil:

    • Damage over Time (DoT) increased.
    • Chance of Power heal when Defensive Strike is used increased to 50% base, and 75% with Set Bonus.
    • Caster will receive a “self-buff” which enhances the next use of one of the following three skills:
      • +20% Words of Courage Morale heal.+20% Shadow’s Lament damage.
      • Threatening Shout becomes an AoE with 3 max targets; if “Echoing Shout” Trait is also active, 6 max targets.
      • The first use of these three skills will expend the self-buff.



    This skill is getting a handy “self-buff”, which will make Blade of Elendil more useful for Captains regardless of how they’re specced. Want to do more damage? Enjoy a more powerful Shadow’s Lament! Are you a healing Captain? Words of Courage will offer more benefit for your fellows. If you’re a tanking Captain and love shouting loudly at things, Threatening Shout will pull more targets. Note: This buff will only enhance your next Words of Courage, Shadow’s Lament, or Threatening Shout. When you use one of these skills with the self-buff active, the buff will be spent. Choose wisely!
    Winner: LtC. Why? Because (with current armor bonuses) LtC traited captains get between 2 and 3 more BOE per minute than HOH/LOM. To paraphrase Dev, according to our crack research team more is better. Relative merits of the 3 bonuses aside (and any trait line can use any bonus), it seems like such a win to get more BOE in. According to Ettenmoors Dev diary, at least one of the armor bonuses (perseverance, which drops SL cooldown 9 seconds) will still be there at 85.

    Quality of Life Improvements and Skill Modifications
    New Skill: “Inspiriting Call”

    • Out-of-Combat Revive, available at level 40.


    The Captain was always good for an in-combat revive, but not an out-of-combat one. Well no longer!

    • Motivating Speech will be usable whilst mounted.
    • All pets will now match player level.
    • Shield of the Dúnedain will now work on players outside of your Fellowship and made an Immediate skill.
    Winner: None really, slightly favors HOH. The out of combat revive is probably a slightly bigger win for HOH when in a main healing role as it is expected of a main healer. Bigger win still for those who do moors, as rez (even out of combat) is very handy. SoTD buff is also very nice for moors and probably slight win for HOH as they are more likely to be using SoTD.

    Legacy Changes
    New Minor Weapon Legacy: "Battle States and Defeat Response Duration." This legacy increases the duration of Battle States and Defeat Responses from 1s to a maximum of 5s, ranking up in .5s steps.

    Winner: Maybe HOH? Can’t really see using this, but HOH hanging on to delay Rallying Cry could be good I suppose. But Doesn’t seem too strong to me.
    Strength of Will Legacy Modifications:
    The Strength of Will Legacy is being modified to also affect Song-brothers and Blade-brothers.

    • Song-brother: Reduce Power cost of Song-brother’s healing skills by 1-10%.
    • Blade-brother: Reduce Blade-brother’s attack duration by 1-10%.
    • Note: Maximum bonus is being reduced from 15% to 10%.
    Winner: LtC. Blade brother is the biggest gainer here, and the 100% reflection makes Blade Brother a better choice for LtC captains. Shield Brother has been nerfed by the 15->10% decrease, though still important on the tank. Song Brother has been improved slightly by the nerf to shield, in that buffing the healer is relatively more competitive than it was. But most healers can deal with power as it is, so the new SoW benefit isn’t overwhelming. I’d have made it 1-10% outgoing healing (or 1-5% if 10 is overkill).

    Winner overall: Looks like LtC to me. LoM got little gain, HOH got some…
    Last edited by DelgonTheWise; Aug 06 2012 at 01:04 PM.

  2. #2
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    i think its a good trend... heres my basic thinking: red-line is the "default" line. its the starting point. HoH and LoM are more specialized. for the times when we DO need to specialize. but our most effective "jack of all trades" build is red-line.

    so, i think red-line should be the main focus, as it should be the most used trait line (all things being equal).

    strengthening the other trait lines too much would (possibly) force more specialization, which i am always against. on th fly is the way i like to play!



    i didnt read your entire post thoroughly, ill comment more when/if i read more
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  3. #3
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    Unfortunately, LtC did get rather buffed by the changes.

    HoH's SoW is still a joke when paired with it's Inspire (why do you care about power costs when you have infinite power?).

    HoH and LoM needs more dev love than what they got this go around =/

  4. #4
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    I'm ok with LoM being specialized. So long as its the clear winner for main tanking, I'm happy. ( I have been known to main tank pits traited 5r/2y though)

    For the support position in groups, LtC is looking more favorable to me than ever. I like LtC due to personal preferences, though I'll go hybrid or HoH as the situation demands. I'm pleased that it looks like in RoR I'll get to use one of my favorite combos for back-to-back Valiant Strikes (3pers/3GC) to decent effect while red or rainbow. I guess it depends on how far ahead the new armor is compared to the Orthanc armor. It would take a huge stat disparity to make hot-swapping 3 pieces of 75 armor to lower the CD of Valiant Strike not worth the loss of heal strength. Crossing my fingers that we'll get Valiant Strike CD lowering set in the new expansion. Also BoE and War Cry changes favor anything involving more battle ready chains.

    At the same time, I'm a little worried because I actually like being the swing guy for the raid. I like retraiting for blues/reds if more heals/dps* is needed for the particular fight we're in. I think we have a great balance right now, mostly due to our main function of buffing being relatively unchanged by our choice of traits. What do we have, like: Fellowship Brother, IDOME, Tact Prowess, and the banner traits? Just look at the poor Loremasters. They have to trait 5-deep in yellow + capstone if they want full debuffing capacity. Anyway, I do like our flexible situation.

    (*it is, of course, not quite as two dimensional as just heals vs dps)
    Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Aug 06 2012 at 03:44 PM.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    I'm ok with LoM being specialized. So long as its the clear winner for main tanking, I'm happy. ( I have been known to main tank pits traited 5r/2y though)

    For the support position in groups, LtC is looking more favorable to me than ever. I like LtC due to personal preferences, though I'll go hybrid or HoH as the situation demands. I'm pleased that it looks like in RoR I'll get to use one of my favorite combos for back-to-back Valiant Strikes (3pers/3GC) to decent effect while red or rainbow. I guess it depends on how far ahead the new armor is compared to the Orthanc armor. It would take a huge stat disparity to make hot-swapping 3 pieces of 75 armor to lower the CD of Valiant Strike not worth the loss of heal strength. Crossing my fingers that we'll get Valiant Strike CD lowering set in the new expansion. Also BoE and War Cry changes favor anything involving more battle ready chains.

    At the same time, I'm a little worried because I actually like being the swing guy for the raid. I like retraiting for blues/reds if more heals/dps* is needed for the particular fight we're in. I think we have a great balance right now, mostly due to our main function of buffing being relatively unchanged by our choice of traits. What do we have, like: Fellowship Brother, IDOME, Tact Prowess, and the banner traits? Just look at the poor Loremasters. They have to trait 5-deep in yellow + capstone if they want full debuffing capacity. Anyway, I do like our flexible situation.

    (*it is, of course, not quite as two dimensional as just heals vs dps)
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    I'm ok with LoM being specialized. So long as its the clear winner for main tanking, I'm happy. ( I have been known to main tank pits traited 5r/2y though)

    For the support position in groups, LtC is looking more favorable to me than ever. I like LtC due to personal preferences, though I'll go hybrid or HoH as the situation demands.
    LtC is my personal preference at this point too, it feels more "fun" to me. But that doesn't mean I don't think the lines should be more balanced. LtC was originally designed as solo/herald focused far as I can see. I'm happy it is currently a viable grouping line as well. But that doesn't mean I think it should be better. I don't like the past eras of "HOH or you aren't welcome" or "LOM or you aren't welcome" that we had -- I want all lines to be competitive.

    I also am fine if LoM is just specialized for main or high end off-tanking, but still it feels like it had little gain in Rohan and could have gotten some more love.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    I also am fine if LoM is just specialized for main or high end off-tanking, but still it feels like it had little gain in Rohan and could have gotten some more love.
    BoE upgrade is going to help quite a bit in the multi-mob tanking department.

    New VS is going to (hopefully) replace the need for SfW for tanking.

    Only thing that concerns is me is the morale/power trading issue (that is, go banner of hope and have power issues, or go banner of victory and have a good chunk of your morale pool shaved off). This is where having the LoM capstone (or 4 LoM) give a +vitality bonus to morale (so we're 4*vit, instead of 3*vit for morale).

    So if LoM gets some power efficiency stuff, it should be golden.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post

    So if LoM gets some power efficiency stuff, it should be golden.
    It did somewhat. Improved Defensive Strike power restore from Light of Elendil, right? LoM keeping defensive strike up is high priority, while in LtC I find it harder to fit it in my rotation...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    It did somewhat. Improved Defensive Strike power restore from Light of Elendil, right? LoM keeping defensive strike up is high priority, while in LtC I find it harder to fit it in my rotation...
    Yeah I guess thats a plus there. Man, I remember when I used to have time for Defensive Strike.



    Yeah I meant to say I want there to be a balance between red traits and blue traits in this upcoming expansion--like there is now. I just got off on a tangent about loremasters.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    Yeah I meant to say I want there to be a balance between red traits and blue traits in this upcoming expansion--like there is now. I just got off on a tangent about loremasters.
    I blame the LM squirrel pets.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Aug 06 2012 at 09:58 PM.

  11. #11
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    Gotta go with the consensus here. All the lines got a buff, which is great, but so far it looks like LtC will benefit the most.

    However, the Valiant Strike thing could end up being a bigger deal for HoH than expected. Specifically, the base cooldown reduction. There's very strong potential to have the HoT up almost constantly, and it's a very significant HoT even as it is now. If there is level 85 with an equivalent bonus to the Gallant Commander 3-set, HoH could post some very nice numbers.

    It remains to be seen about the BoE buff on Words of Courage. The fact that outgoing healing modifiers are additive means that LtC/hybrid will see the largest relative benefit out of this, but on the other hand bursty spot healing was always the biggest issue for main-healing Captains... and now we've got a pretty reliable way of increasing our bursty spot healing.

    The overall picture for HoH actually looks very good if you take a step back. I mean, from a toolkit perspective, we pretty much gained everything we lacked compared to current main healers, other than a dread wipe. (Which is fine, we're a hybrid class, so we'll just take that particular lump.) The difference from here out is just going to be numbers, if anything.

    Really, the only thing holding HoH back now is the weaksauce benefit from Song-Brother Strength of Will. My preference would be an increased chance for critical heals instead of the (largely unnecessary) power cost reduction. That would synergise nicely with Relentless Optimism's increased critical heal magnitude and the overall Captain focus on getting lots of crits. I suspect, however, that we'll all be pleasantly surprised by how well HoH heals in RoR even if Song-Bro doesn't see any changes.
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  12. #12
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    I've been thinking about the new legacy, and how well that'd help to give more choice to a LtC build, especially with the ToO Dagor set in play.

    A weapon I'd like to run with:
    To Arms
    Telling Mark
    PA Targets
    BoE Ramage
    Cutting Attack Damage
    +Battle States

    Kick seems like a better tanking legacy than DPS, but even then it's pretty craptasic.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Aug 07 2012 at 10:39 AM.

  13. #13

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I've been thinking about the new legacy, and how well that'd help to give more choice to a LtC build, especially with the ToO Dagor set in play.

    A weapon I'd like to run with:
    To Arms
    Telling Mark
    PA Targets
    BoE Ramage
    Cutting Attack Damage
    +Battle States

    Kick seems like a better tanking legacy than DPS, but even then it's pretty craptasic.
    Hahaha, "BoE Ramage" typo; but fits well.
    Although my real reason for posting is because I want to know if the change is going to change Blade Bro to increase the attack duration reduction from 5% I think it is to a max 10%. Numbers may be wrong, but I just want to know if that concept is correct.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by aadaboy19 View Post
    Hahaha, "BoE Ramage" typo; but fits well.
    XD

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Kick seems like a better tanking legacy than DPS, but even then it's pretty craptasic.
    If kick had a shorter cooldown, it'd be sooo good to work into a rotation to cut the animation of SL or BoE or something.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I've been thinking about the new legacy, and how well that'd help to give more choice to a LtC build, especially with the ToO Dagor set in play.
    I'm not seeing it. I don't often have battle states/defeat responses expire unused in current dagor/perseverence builds. I'm really unclear why they saw it as needed. I can see a case for storing your defeat response until RC is off cooldown (or until a few more RC ticks have happened to be efficient), but how often do you have battle states expiring unused? It seems at best situational and usually unneeded. What am I missing?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    I'm not seeing it. I don't often have battle states/defeat responses expire unused in current dagor/perseverence builds. I'm really unclear why they saw it as needed. I can see a case for storing your defeat response until RC is off cooldown (or until a few more RC ticks have happened to be efficient), but how often do you have battle states expiring unused? It seems at best situational and usually unneeded. What am I missing?
    It helps give you the chance to throw out that heal or buff without losing the battle state for DB/PA or BoE, so we can be more responsive instead of just standing there and DPSing. Granted, this is more of a tool to help you in PUGs (where it's needed) than with Kin groups that pwn content.

    The Defeat Responses is just icing on the cake.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    It helps give you the chance to throw out that heal or buff without losing the battle state for DB/PA or BoE, so we can be more responsive instead of just standing there and DPSing. Granted, this is more of a tool to help you in PUGs (where it's needed) than with Kin groups that pwn content.
    Problem is that LIs are so darned expensive. I'll play with the legacy on the (trash) 3rd ages that we get in Rohan. However, once I get serious about an LI -- investing scrolls, crystals, etc, I'm not so inclined to put on something situational that may help occasionally in PUGs? Because even now, in PUGs, it isn't that often that I have battle states unused...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    Problem is that LIs are so darned expensive. I'll play with the legacy on the (trash) 3rd ages that we get in Rohan. However, once I get serious about an LI -- investing scrolls, crystals, etc, I'm not so inclined to put on something situational that may help occasionally in PUGs? Because even now, in PUGs, it isn't that often that I have battle states unused...
    Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out when this would be usable =/

    Maybe in a Dagor + Perserverance type build?

  20. #20
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    I lose defeat responses all the time... when I don't use 3-perseverance.
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  21. #21
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    Even if its a winner in rohan take a look at the guardian dps changes.AGAIN cappes get the buttom of the dps barrel.Why didnt we get some decent damage boosts?I have to say i like the changes...but

    No trait changes?No new defeat responses?no new mechanics?(apart from BoE)Hell not even summoning horn becoming a skill and not an item(lol)
    Simple examples are the Tactical prowess trait or banner traits.Or that we have to equip 2 LEGENDARY TRAITS to be CALLED REAL buffers.I hate this!this must change and even if player feedback was given so many times they didnt try to attempt to change some things that ARE obvious anymore.Why IDOME is a legendary?or FB?These are buffs the separate CAPTAINS buffers from MINSTREL buffs.Melee skills healing still wont give us the hots if they dont connect?ok look at bracing attack from champs miste dev

    The slow lvl up and dmg we have its gonna be again boring.This was the most boring update changes i saw.I hate it that we swing around a halberd and we hit like we wave around wet noodls in slow motion.The attack duration bug that exists since the normalization of the weapons attack speed its killing our dps and i dont think they get it or if they ever fix it

    I saw so many suggestions in the forum for captain mechanics... and again...we get something improved and stay there till the next expantion doing the same thing over and over and over again

    Dont get me wrong i love captain.I will play captain and i will always do as much i can.But i hate it that cappies dev really dont *hear* us.I hate it when i see in the moors chat comments like: oh its a pet and rk or minstrel or whatever.I wanna play captain again in the moors man.But i see our sets and i laugh compared to other pvp sets.(apart from perservance..spelling;p) I wanna see for once that a cappy is a dangerous class to go against in pvp. I wanna see some cappy action in solo.If i want to solo i want to have blade bro on me without grouping.

    HE IS CALLED CAPTAIN FOR A REASON


    /rant off and sorry for my spelling
    Last edited by Tangaar; Aug 07 2012 at 05:30 PM.

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  22. #22
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    It always has been about "class fixing" for Captains in updates. Now that our trait lines are in a fairly balanced place atm I wish they would add some new mechanics to the class. Instead it's going to be the same old thing we have been doing for a year now with a very minor change to BoE. I am grateful for the OOC rez though. Glad they finally realized that good captains can main heal their content.
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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangaar View Post

    Dont get me wrong i love captain.I will play captain and i will always do as much i can.But i hate it that cappies dev really dont *hear* us.I hate it when i see in the moors chat comments like: oh its a pet and rk or minstrel or whatever.I wanna play captain again in the moors man.But i see our sets and i laugh compared to other pvp sets.(apart from perservance..spelling;p) I wanna see for once that a cappy is a dangerous class to go against in pvp. I wanna see some cappy action in solo.If i want to solo i want to have blade bro on me without grouping.

    HE IS CALLED CAPTAIN FOR A REASON


    /rant off and sorry for my spelling
    I feel the same way, and that was too well written to be a rant. I think that struck a chord with many cappies including myself. I too was hoping to get brother skills without a herald as well. I think that that would go a long way in developing the solo captain.

    Sometimes I feel like every cappy update is just an update for every class besides captains. Meaning that all non-cappies get to read our updates to see what they are getting because it almost always goes to the group and not the cappy. I like that we are so awesome to groups but I also want to forge our own identity apart from the group.

    I don't want my comment to diminish what deviled_egg has done here. Deviled_egg has done some pretty groundbreaking things here, touched on a lot of our old concerns. When compared to other class updates it seems the changes reached the maximum for the scope of ROR. So rather than, "he/she left out a lot", in truth Deviled_Egg did as much as he/she could within the project scope. (IMO)

    I hope Deviled_egg continues in this direction we have a lot to do yet and it's going to take a long time.
    Last edited by Armitas; Aug 08 2012 at 12:29 PM.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    I hope Deviled_egg continues in this direction we have a lot to do yet and it's going to take a long time.
    After thinking about the legacy a bit... I would much rather have it on the emblem than on the weapon.

    We really do need to have clear cut healing and DPS weapon and emblem LIs.

    Fortunately, Tanking gets it's own set because of the relics.

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    im going with "she." ...never met a man named Erika.
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