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  1. #1
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    Special Whole Map PVMP server (Idea)

    idea:
    (note: this has been edited since original posting)


    make 1 beefy server dedicated to PVMP...
    shut down all server PVMP (so all pvmp takes place on that server)
    have whole world PVMP modified...

    special areas are freep or creep only in accordance with lore (IE no orcs inside bounds of lorien... hidden 1 shots, no orcs in/around rivendel, freeps cant enter DG/CD, no creeps near Esteldin)

    some areas are very very difficult to get into but will not have 1 shots (Bree has no 1 shots, has tons of hard hitting NPC's though)

    some zones will have some heavy natural resistance with some reward for entering (for instance, most of angmar will have hard hitting NPCs around, but has great ren/comm bonus for freeps in there {though they would need to be grouped to last}) or shire (hard hitting bounders walking all over the place... enter at your own risk but there is great inf/comm buff for risking it)
    vale of isengard another example.
    this would dissuade one side or the other from entering these zones unless they had a large force and the other side was losing in the rest of the world or you are just really up to the challenge.

    Capture points would be ranked in the following sense (loosely)

    Camp:
    1-4 NPCs, boss elite.
    can be taken by 1-2 people,
    worth 1% inf/ren/comm (tiering zonewide "camp" buff) and 1% melee/ranged/tact offense (tiering zonewide buff)
    many per zone scattered at current small encampment locations (ie those small camps with 1-2 questgiver npcs)

    Outpost:
    5-10 NPCs, boss nemisis/elite master dependent on # of npcs.
    can be taken by 6 people
    worth 5% inf/ren/comm (tiering zonewide "outpost" buff). -5% incoming damage (tiering zonewide buff)
    several per zone (those quest hubs you see around like mirkwood hubs, moria hubs, and the like.

    Town:
    10-20 npcs, boss nemisis and a smaller elite master boss in a seperate part of the town.
    can be taken by raid (current equal to a keep)
    worth 10% inf/ren/comm (tiering worldwide "town" buff) . -5% incoming damage and +2% melee/ranged/tactical damage (zone)
    few per zone (4-5) those larger quest hubs like the towns in dunland, larger quest hubs in general.

    Fortress:
    20-30 npcs, 1 arch nemisis, 2 elite master bosses loacted in seperate part of the fortress
    woth 20% inf/ren/comm( tiering worldwide "Fort" buff,) . -7% incoming damage and +3% melee/ranged/tactical damage (worldwide)
    0-2 per zone, the main central location of the zone (21st hall, galtrev, etc)
    activates "refugee" camp (equal to ec/oc) to launch counterattacks, only occupied with NPCs of your side if fort is captured by other side. seperate camps for sperate sides. the npcs do not attack the fort.

    Commanding Control point:
    40-60 npcs, 1 arch nemisis, 2 nemisis bosses located in speprate parts of Commanding Control point. Cannot be Captured.
    0-1 per zone, the big kahuna spots, replace forts sometimes as central location (bree, that tower in angmar that i forgot the name of, thorins hall (if lore allows it) , possibly annuminas, and other great places of interest.)
    each Command point has an inhrent allicance (freep/creep) and are meant to be controlled by that side. they are meant to be a place to attack when the balance is tipped far to one side. However, the opposing side gets a 30% comm/ren/inf bonus while inside the control point.


    population mechanics:
    if you are in an unfriendly zone (IE shire for creeps, angmar for freeps) you recive a 50% ren/inf/comm buff. this is to compensate for the danger those sides face in those unfriendly zones with many unfriendly NPCs around. )
    if the opposing side has 2 times as many players as your side in the zone, you are presented with a -20% incoming damage buff and a 20% inf/ren/comm buff.
    if your side has 2 times as many players as the other side... you get a -20% inf/ren/comm buff. this is to keep people from pooling in 1 zone.
    if your zone has more players overall than than other zones, a tiering penalty for everyone will stack up in accordance to how many more people you have in your zone than the avrage # of all zones.
    if you are in a region of a zone with too many people... you will recive a "lost in the fray" effect where your inf/ren/comm is pentalized -50%

    IF there is server-crushing numbers of people in the zone, people will be randomly auto-deported out to a less populated zone.



    have whole world level cap.... (all NPCs and players are lvl cap, imited number of NPCs to cut back on dev time. so only a few models of NPC all 85. )

    give creeps mounts (just do it... have orc-kind ride appropriate sized wargs and spiders/wargs a speed buff)


    NO NORMAL MAPS. you want to get there? fight your way to it.

    1 time maps via lotro store so return on investment.

    swift travel removed



    Freeps go from PVE server to PVMP server via Instance finder.



    shut down all server PVMP (so all pvmp takes place on that server)


    connect the ettenmoors to the rest of the world.

    CLOSE OFF ROHAN (for now, its too big)

    EACH SERVER will have its creeps initially plopped down in a pre-determined zone (IE elendmir get set in Moria, etc)


    in short: special PVMP server full of only level cap freeps/creep from the entire lotro population with modified cities/npcs for every zone....


    this
    #1: takes large burden off of normal pve servers and loads it onto one server (beefed up server)
    #2 give larger battlefield, allows mixing of all PVMP populations from all servers
    #3 gives the lore people a lot of fun since its a battle all over the world
    #4 with proper mechanics... it could break up "clumping" of freeps/creeps into mega raids since the PVMP population would be spread out over the entire map trying to defend key locations that give world wide tiering bonuses (like the RoR bonuses)
    #5 gives big draw from PVP people from other games to partake in an epic battleground, more store purchases for maps.
    #6 be JUST AWESOME
    #7 see #6
    #8 see #7
    #9 sales of maps, creep mounts, and creep mount skins along with packs that can be purchased for access for non VIPers as well as purchaseable goodies and special fluff will be well worth the investment for turbine and WB... as well as give them a reputation for having the largest PVP enviroment in the world... as well as having fun defending those favorite locations we all love.... those combat people will love to have combat in every zone with every player in lotro.

    SHORT: MONEY FOR TURBINE

    this may take a good deal of dev work.. but looking at how many people would swarm this place (think of how exciting it would be to defend, lets say DG from freep attack as a creep, defend bree as a freep.



    danger is everywhere.. just like the good old days when angmar was full of mobs that could pound you to dust... danger is everywhere and battle is just around the corner.... everywhere!






    this could make big bucks for turbine without having to pour much development dollars into environment building or getting appearances right.... its all there just add the NPC's and mechanics and lets the battle roll on and the profits pour in!
    Last edited by Lendas; Jan 26 2013 at 09:04 PM.

  2. #2

    Great!

    This idea is an epic idea. I would love to have huge raids and such with friends, also since the population would probably be big on this PVMP server huge raid battles would come back to life.

    + 1 ( would but can't, since you have so many great posts i can't give rep for them all :/)

    Turbine if you are reading this, you should so make this happen, you would get tons more people just for this.
    The end of an age has come and the wheel of time turns on. We will meet again when the wheel allows it.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legonist View Post
    This idea is an epic idea. I would love to have huge raids and such with friends, also since the population would probably be big on this PVMP server huge raid battles would come back to life.

    + 1 ( would but can't, since you have so many great posts i can't give rep for them all :/)

    Turbine if you are reading this, you should so make this happen, you would get tons more people just for this.
    aye my idea actually tries to stop mega raid v raid engagements (because having a servers worth of people in coordinating raids in a close location would crash the server)


    my idea is to have the entrie PVMP population migle in mixed enviroments spread out over a single server. (so instdea of having globs of concentrated people seperated by servers, we could have a "smear" of pvmp spread out with people spreading out over all the zones to capture locations and keeping them, while having fights with the enemy over some of them. having penalties for excessive concetration in one zone would encourage an even spread of PVMP across the map.

    the big keep locations are for when population fluxes occur ( since its one big server, a seemingly small population flux on a single pvmp server is amplified several times) for the lesser side to have a fallback location other than 1 shot locations and have the dominant forces have something to do other than derp around the 1 shots. (ie take bree, annuminas, defenders pour in to retake/keep it)


    this would allow raids and such to form... but not too big raids. this would allow for epic engaements... but make sure its not commonplace and have PVMP become a world affair and not have it concentrated in one zone (that really gets boring after a while)



    the solution to PVMP balance is simply mix it up. if you mix the entire pvmp poulation into one server, class impbalaces will even out due to the effectivenss and rewards of grouping while keeping mega groups at bay.


    and yes... having 1 mega worldwide pvmp zone alone would draw crowds.... i would definatly throw "that other game" into the bucket if this stuff happend.... and i would use the lotro store for the maps :P





    i would also like to point out the controll point buffs.... as you see... they have a bonus to comm/inf/ren gain but penaties to the other side....


    so if both sides controll the same amount of control points... the bonuses equate to 0% more gain

    so if one side owns one more control point than the other... they get (lets say 20%) a bonus while the other side gets a penalty... so its even more imporant to upkeep keeps. this mechanic also makes sure that insane bonuses are not present (everyone owns same amount of keeps... 200% ren/inf/comm... we dont want that)
    Last edited by Lendas; Aug 03 2012 at 08:07 PM.

  4. #4
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    A single server with completely different code than all the other servers = essentially an entirely different game to spin up, maintain, and develop for.

    Also, unless you're suggesting that it's a server that anyone with toons on other servers can access with their regular toons, you're cutting off the casual PvPers who might like to just try it out occasionally without having to roll a toon specifically for that server.

    I don't know how much time that took you to develop and type out, but it seems like a lot of time spent on wishful thinking. It's been suggested before, it's been roundly ignored before, it's highly unlikely to ever happen. Good luck to you, though.

    Edit to add: I notice that you're pulling a reverse control point buff - control fewer points, get more commendations. The only difference between that and the current proposed model for RoR is that people will be encouraged to flip to their less-preferred side to try and flip the map so that they can be buffed on their preferred side.
    Last edited by Lestache; Aug 03 2012 at 08:09 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    A single server with completely different code than all the other servers = essentially an entirely different game to spin up, maintain, and develop for.

    Also, unless you're suggesting that it's a server that anyone with toons on other servers can access with their regular toons, you're cutting off the casual PvPers who might like to just try it out occasionally without having to roll a toon specifically for that server.

    I don't know how much time that took you to develop and type out, but it seems like a lot of time spent on wishful thinking. It's been suggested before, it's been roundly ignored before, it's highly unlikely to ever happen. Good luck to you, though.
    if that person has VIP they get 1 freep copy evey 3 months (adjust how you wish).. and even FTP peeps can jump in on freaver. buy yourslef a copy of yourslef on this new server from lotro store and you are good to go.

    its not much diffrent than today (get horse, go) so if you are an occasional pvmper with VIP you can copy yourslef ever 3 months/month/ whatever. just wait a day and you are in.


    its not an entierly new game... the landscape is the same and the skills/classes are the same...


    the only diffrence is that you remove NPCs and replace them. add some E-Z mechaics (i know programming and its not that hard to do the stuff i said if its a serious effort) and you got yourslef one of the best PVMP envroments in the MMO world



    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post

    Edit to add: I notice that you're pulling a reverse control point buff - control fewer points, get more commendations. The only difference between that and the current proposed model for RoR is that people will be encouraged to flip to their less-preferred side to try and flip the map so that they can be buffed on their preferred side.


    not exactly sure what you are reffering to. if i am freep and i flip a control point... my side gets +20% ren/comm and the creeps get ..... -20% inf/comm....

    this is intended to stop the ren/inf/comm bonuses from stacking into the sky (ie both sides will never get a positive bonus at the same time, this is intended as an encouragement to fight over control points that are located all over the world)




    mixing the population into a larger population pool will dilute the bad/good players into a generally even mix of skill and therefore lead to balance.
    Last edited by Lendas; Aug 03 2012 at 08:23 PM.

  6. #6
    Definately isn't the first time this idea has come around, but I still agree with it. An open world pvmp server would be great, but with several problems.
    1. It would almost have to be a new game, as stated before.
    2. The pvp and general population on all other servers would dramatically drop.
    3. Lag. Since everyone is going to be flooding to this server, there could be thousands and thousands on at the same time. There could be a 200v200 fight at Bree-Town. Everyone would lag-out, if the server hasnt already crashed by then.

    I still like the idea, but Im afraid it just might not be possible.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    if that person has VIP they get 1 freep copy evey 3 months (adjust how you wish).. and even FTP peeps can jump in on freaver. buy yourslef a copy of yourslef on this new server from lotro store and you are good to go.

    its not much diffrent than today (get horse, go) so if you are an occasional pvmper with VIP you can copy yourslef ever 3 months/month/ whatever. just wait a day and you are in.


    its not an entierly new game... the landscape is the same and the skills/classes are the same...


    the only diffrence is that you remove NPCs and replace them. add some E-Z mechaics (i know programming and its not that hard to do the stuff i said if its a serious effort) and you got yourslef one of the best PVMP envroments in the MMO world







    not exactly sure what you are reffering to. if i am freep and i flip a control point... my side gets +20% ren/comm and the creeps get ..... -20% inf/comm....

    this is intended to stop the ren/inf/comm bonuses from stacking into the sky (ie both sides will never get a positive bonus at the same time, this is intended as an encouragement to fight over control points that are located all over the world)




    mixing the population into a larger population pool will dilute the bad/good players into a generally even mix of skill and therefore lead to balance.
    The free copy idea is a lot different from "get on horse and go". I hop on a horse right now and I get to PvP. I get new jewelry and hop on that same horse tomorrow, I get to PvP again but with my updated stats. With the copy idea, my PvP freep only gets updated as often as the copy allows.

    As for the control point buff, I'm referring to:

    if the other side has 70% of all control points in your zone, you are presented with a 30% buff in ren/inf/comms

    if the other side has a 85% or higher control points in your zone, you are presented with a 50% buff in ren/inf/comms. (this would be like angmar, shire, bree land, mirkwood, where other side has the "inhertently friendly" effect. )
    I get a buff to commendations and renown if the other side is more successful than my side.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by angrolas View Post
    Definately isn't the first time this idea has come around, but I still agree with it. An open world pvmp server would be great, but with several problems.
    1. It would almost have to be a new game, as stated before.
    2. The pvp and general population on all other servers would dramatically drop.
    3. Lag. Since everyone is going to be flooding to this server, there could be thousands and thousands on at the same time. There could be a 200v200 fight at Bree-Town. Everyone would lag-out, if the server hasnt already crashed by then.

    I still like the idea, but Im afraid it just might not be possible.
    i have adreesed all those issues in my first post... plz read it carefully

    1: as i stated before... its not really. a whole lot of dev time is put into landscape development and other fluff.

    the only thing that you have to change is
    A: remove almost all NPCS (not that hard with the worldbuilder program that turbine uses (i think they gave out a sneak peek of the program is SOA)
    B: replace them with new NPCs (again not that hard. take pre-existing models and assign morale and damage levels to them. peice of cake compared to other stuff turbine has to do)

    add capture effects (again, already developed for the moors, so re-use that)
    add buff mechanics (again, not too hard, has been done for RoR)


    2: as i stated, server PVMP would be shut down.
    and server Popluation would not drop, since there would be a "Copy" effect for transfering freeps to the PVMP server and NOT an X fer effect.... and PVE would still be the way to get non-pvp sets for your char. (as the PVP server has no PVE content)

    3: lag issues have been adressed in debuffs and penalties for having too many people in one spot. if people still decide to overload an area, a warning could go out (if server is getting overloaded) before a random port effect would take place to port people to random locations away from the battle. (like the current random port from some of the inn league kegs)



    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post

    As for the control point buff, I'm referring to:



    I get a buff to commendations and renown if the other side is more successful than my side.
    fixed. ty for pointing that out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    The free copy idea is a lot different from "get on horse and go". I hop on a horse right now and I get to PvP. I get new jewelry and hop on that same horse tomorrow, I get to PvP again but with my updated stats. With the copy idea, my PvP freep only gets updated as often as the copy allows.
    perhaps.... though i assume most server lines could only handle a small amount of people streaming though them....


    if they beefed up the server lines connecting the PVE servers with the PVP server... it could work a little like current instance finder (ie you are put in a queue and do other stuff untill your turn comes, if you are not ready you can click the skip button and let the person behind you go {you will automaticly be skipped after 30 sec if you do not click OK}

    it could be made that you could buy a "top queue" buff for cheap to skip the wait and go to the top of the line....


    thanks for the feedback... i will be updating my first post as more suggestions come in
    Last edited by Lendas; Aug 03 2012 at 08:59 PM.

  9. #9
    its a dream that will never happen, maybe if they opened up for private servers but that probably won't happen. They stated pvp is no the focus so no matter how much we try they won't do something like that. Besides its a hard thing to accomplish with auto level of creeps at expansions since they can just grief you at the gate with a 10 level difference while you quest not to mention low level areas i mean most creeps have dreamed of raiding bree. The fact creeps auto level to the cap makes the whole idea pretty tough, since 90% of the world is for people under the cap so its pretty much just creating a open season hunt for creeps to rampage low levels.

    Obviously I wouldn't and can think of a number of fun systems you can implement to add more excitement to the prospect of world pvp. But anything outside just changing the pvp related status of the zones is already asking too much of Turbine's development time for an open world pvp server.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notaforumguy007 View Post
    its a dream that will never happen, maybe if they opened up for private servers but that probably won't happen. They stated pvp is no the focus so no matter how much we try they won't do something like that. Besides its a hard thing to accomplish with auto level of creeps at expansions since they can just grief you at the gate with a 10 level difference while you quest not to mention low level areas i mean most creeps have dreamed of raiding bree. The fact creeps auto level to the cap makes the whole idea pretty tough, since 90% of the world is for people under the cap so its pretty much just creating a open season hunt for creeps to rampage low levels.

    Obviously I wouldn't and can think of a number of fun systems you can implement to add more excitement to the prospect of world pvp. But anything outside just changing the pvp related status of the zones is already asking too much of Turbine's development time for an open world pvp server.

    reeeeead my first post.

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    its been said before, ignored before, supported before, in better ways by worse people(and visa Versa) the point is it will not happen. in order for that to work with out massive in game crashes they would have to make a new game just for this plan. you have any idea why the devide up the pop into many servers? because if you put aprox 3 million people all in the same area of code stuff crashes, lots of stuff crashes. it wont work why wont people just acept that? besides it is way beyond turbines skills to create/run a game like that, i mean look how long it took them to FINNALY try to fix PvMP.

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    The concept is epic.

    The execution won't happen.

    Mechanically, it's not a whole new game. But conceptually it is.

    Also, to be fair, part of the reason they have such a large world is so there's places to go and things to do at each level. If it's jut a PvP world you don't need that much landscape, especially if it's all targeted at level cap characters.

    Something that might actually be pretty cool though, and wouldn't require quite so much work or as many changes, would be to allow players to "drive" normal area mobs.

    Want to hunt low level characters in the Shire? That's cool - but you enter the world as a level 10 Bear, or spider, or whatever. That seriously alters the combat landscape for players, but wouldn't require so great a change to the game mechanics. It would be like Session play, but rather than a Chicken, you come on as one of the monster types that are already in existence.

    Kudos to you for the conceptual work.

    And, seriously, I could SO get into hunting those big snowy aurox things up in Forochel. My fluffy fur coat was just made to go play in the snow!
    Hobbits . . .
    Now them's good eatin'!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by l4j View Post
    The concept is epic.

    The execution won't happen.

    Mechanically, it's not a whole new game. But conceptually it is.

    Also, to be fair, part of the reason they have such a large world is so there's places to go and things to do at each level. If it's jut a PvP world you don't need that much landscape, especially if it's all targeted at level cap characters.

    Something that might actually be pretty cool though, and wouldn't require quite so much work or as many changes, would be to allow players to "drive" normal area mobs.

    Want to hunt low level characters in the Shire? That's cool - but you enter the world as a level 10 Bear, or spider, or whatever. That seriously alters the combat landscape for players, but wouldn't require so great a change to the game mechanics. It would be like Session play, but rather than a Chicken, you come on as one of the monster types that are already in existence.

    Kudos to you for the conceptual work.

    And, seriously, I could SO get into hunting those big snowy aurox things up in Forochel. My fluffy fur coat was just made to go play in the snow!
    errrrr... actually driving landscape mobs is a bigger developmental hurdle that my idea (not sure if people who post here have read though and understood exactly what i wrote )


    for session play you would need to add skillbars, alter landscape mobs so they dont attack you

    IMPORTANT NOTE:
    current PVE landscape mobs are designed to attack anything that is not one of them.
    notice that pvmp mobs have yellow healthbars... their mechanics are diffrent than those of PVE mobs in the fact that they recive a "hit" effect when a mob/player from the opposite side gets near while barring getting hit from freindly npcs/players.


    to have session play you would have to rework every mob in the game (litirally) and thats waaaaay more work than my idea
    ( to remove all current landscape mobs and replace them with a limited variety of PVMP mobs all level cap. so instead of having one area having a special orc mob with a set level for that area... a small batch of generic orc models can be used all over several regions (ie a set of 4-5 orc mobs can be used in breeland, north downs, lone lands,)



    making this worldwide pvmp map is not as hard as you may think when you ponder how little "development" actually goes into it (no special mechanic development, no landscape development, limited lore development, no npc model development,) because all the work that goes into it is simply re-using old stuff.


    and as for the reason to have a large world.... its the same reason for PVE as PVMP........ it gets boring just wallowing in one zone and defending one or two keeps over and over (TA/TR shuffle) and it would be much more fun and way more awsome to be able to interact with more creeps/freeps (instead of being stuck with the people on your server) and it would draw more people from other games to LOTRO PVMP (because i big downside to our pvmp is the small zone, limited population, and overall repetitiveness of MOORS PVMP.

    so ive been fighting in the lone lands for the past few days... i think il check out whats groovin in eregion. i think ill travel over to mirkwood see how the fight is going there.... WOA 21st is under attack! i think ill go and help out there.... they have low freep pop buff there.





    it may be wishful thinking a little... but hey.... it makes sesne..

    does not require huge effort (compared to other stuff turbine does)

    has big reward (if im playing that other game and i hear world PVMP server on LOTRO? heck yea im coming back!)

    will be lotsa fun for players... who in turn tell players of other games (who are cooped up in their own little boxes like we are in lotro, or have some kind of toggle options for pvp so i can attack this guy but not the pve guy next to him)

    will expand-develop tubine/WB buissness and scoop up more costomers (hey its time to expand out of that "we'r a pve game" box and make some profits off of the already increasing profitability of PVMP... skillbuying is big already)





    so if this idea gets support of PVMP community and if it works its way up to the planner people (perhaps via community staff who check this thread out because it gets views and support from PVMP community)

    its really not has hard as it first seems.

  14. #14
    I don't really need to read you're post since no matter how amazing or awesome, even if I love the idea Turbine won't do it, since they've said themselves pvmp is a side thing and pve is the focus and its never gonna change. Even that aside I can't think of an instance they've actually implemented an idea and player thought up, outside of fix this its broken which isn't even an idea.
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  15. #15
    Never gonna happen.

  16. #16
    Not signed even if Turbine would be willing to do it. We all know Turbine would never dedicate enough resources to support bunch of players in one location. The lag would be 10x worse than now.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmyloo22546 View Post
    Not signed even if Turbine would be willing to do it. We all know Turbine would never dedicate enough resources to support bunch of players in one location. The lag would be 10x worse than now.
    dunno if people get it but....



    all the people will not be in one place... they will be all over the map due to poulation pooling penalty mechanics, population-saturation limit porting (ie if population gets too high in one area a warning will go out before random porting occurs...)


    if the current servers can handle one ettenmoors + all pve fluff..... a slightly beefed up (or really even a normal) server with all zones being populated with PVPers spread out across diffrent zones with very little PVE fluff (nothing other than capture points)



    if you get a normal or slightly beefed up server to handle PVMP spread out across the map there WILL NOT BE LAG unless someone decides to make a mega raid in which case a inf/ren/comm penalty will kick in for overpopulation of a zone in comparison to other zones, or eventually a random port effect.



    again i wont repeat the benefits of having this zone and why its not that hard to make.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    dunno if people get it but....
    Oh, no, I think a lot of us get it. And appreciate how cool it could be. But there are some issues, and alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    all the people will not be in one place... they will be all over the map due to poulation pooling penalty mechanics, population-saturation limit porting (ie if population gets too high in one area a warning will go out before random porting occurs...)

    if the current servers can handle one ettenmoors + all pve fluff..... a slightly beefed up (or really even a normal) server with all zones being populated with PVPers spread out across diffrent zones with very little PVE fluff (nothing other than capture points)
    We have issues with "Where's the [f/c]reeps at?" now. Whole world won't help the situation. People will gravitate to where the fights are, which will depend on a lot of things. It'd be cool to have a lot of different areas to fight in, and get us spread out over a broader area, but the whole of the Shire or Breeland would probably be enough. There are enough 'strongholds' of each side to make it interesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    if you get a normal or slightly beefed up server to handle PVMP spread out across the map there WILL NOT BE LAG unless someone decides to make a mega raid in which case a inf/ren/comm penalty will kick in for overpopulation of a zone in comparison to other zones, or eventually a random port effect.
    Well, you know that most areas are handled by multiple servers, right? There's some well defined 'server lines' where you can tell when you've been handed off from one to another in the same region. I don't know all of the architecture behind it, but there is a lot of interaction between boxen. There might be some gains to be had by increasing the hardware spec, but I doubt it. They already have to use layering to deal with the load in some areas, like Bree or Galtrev, when the player load gets too high.

    (I acknowledge that my understanding of the server architecture is incomplete, but the understanding is based on observation and what information is available on the subject)

    200 Creeps trying to sack Bree would almost certainly cause it to go into layering mode.

    Though I am curious to know how the servers stood up to the load when the Russian servers allowed Creeps into Eregion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    again i wont repeat the benefits of having this zone and why its not that hard to make.
    I could say the same for my alternative of 'driving landscape mobs' *chuckles* But we're really just talking about different ways to achieve the same ultimate goal: better PvMP play for everyone.
    Hobbits . . .
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by l4j View Post
    Oh, no, I think a lot of us get it. And appreciate how cool it could be. But there are some issues, and alternatives.



    We have issues with "Where's the [f/c]reeps at?" now. Whole world won't help the situation. People will gravitate to where the fights are, which will depend on a lot of things. It'd be cool to have a lot of different areas to fight in, and get us spread out over a broader area, but the whole of the Shire or Breeland would probably be enough. There are enough 'strongholds' of each side to make it interesting.




    Well, you know that most areas are handled by multiple servers, right? There's some well defined 'server lines' where you can tell when you've been handed off from one to another in the same region. I don't know all of the architecture behind it, but there is a lot of interaction between boxen. There might be some gains to be had by increasing the hardware spec, but I doubt it. They already have to use layering to deal with the load in some areas, like Bree or Galtrev, when the player load gets too high.

    (I acknowledge that my understanding of the server architecture is incomplete, but the understanding is based on observation and what information is available on the subject)

    200 Creeps trying to sack Bree would almost certainly cause it to go into layering mode.

    Though I am curious to know how the servers stood up to the load when the Russian servers allowed Creeps into Eregion.



    I could say the same for my alternative of 'driving landscape mobs' *chuckles* But we're really just talking about different ways to achieve the same ultimate goal: better PvMP play for everyone.
    to adress some of the issues you pointed out:

    1: there will NOT be a population deficiency due to the number of server PMVP this will meld. (creeps from every server)
    if they just had bree+shire areas then it would be squeezing 1000 players into that space

    remeber we are talking about THE ENTIRE PVMP POPULATION OF LOTRO + A LOAD OF BANDWAGONERS (ie new/ returning players) thats all the server pvmp people from about 20 or so servers?

    there will NOT be a population shortage... and the action will occur in all zones due to said mechainics and keep buffs
    (would be dumb to stick around bree land when you are getting a -60% comm debuff because you have not defended keeps in other parts of the world?)

    there would be no layering due to, again, overpopulation debuff that is based on how much higher the population saturation is in one area than the avrage of the others. this would encourage spreading.


    you would be supprised what servers can handle... it took an insane amount of people (like 300 i think) to crash a server when they organaized a charge into the mirkwood 1 shots before mirkwood release... and that was 300 people charging into one little area (special random port mechanics will assure that that never happens, debuffs will discourage it.)







    really if its done right, and post release every server's population will be assinged a "starting zone" (ie im an elendmir creep, im ploped into non-capturable (but mostly not non-enterable)goblin town in misty mountains. while my buddy on windfola gets set down in a war-camp somewhere in angmar)



    if its done right there will be no more lag than there is now. the population will be allowed to mix and migle while maintaining a smooth consistency of players thoughout the world (again via said mechaincs)




    and as with the NPC driving... again see my previous post.... it requiers a re-engineering of every mob in the game.... that alone will be a huge undertaking for what little reward there will be (its not really that big of a thing to warrent it.... PVMP on the other hand is a big thing in other games) it will actually be more work to re-work the entire world NPCs (and btw if you drive an NPC.... its gonna be weak and get blown up by freeps E-Z, your also gonna hafter install guards everywhere there is a PVE camp.... and the PVErs will cry.) than to make one PVMP server.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    to adress some of the issues you pointed out:

    1: there will NOT be a population deficiency due to the number of server PMVP this will meld. (creeps from every server)
    if they just had bree+shire areas then it would be squeezing 1000 players into that space

    remeber we are talking about THE ENTIRE PVMP POPULATION OF LOTRO + A LOAD OF BANDWAGONERS (ie new/ returning players) thats all the server pvmp people from about 20 or so servers?

    there will NOT be a population shortage... and the action will occur in all zones due to said mechainics and keep buffs
    (would be dumb to stick around bree land when you are getting a -60% comm debuff because you have not defended keeps in other parts of the world?)
    I think you're overestimating the attraction of spreading out and the effectiveness of buff/debuff driven mechanics to get people where you want them to be.

    The main thing that keeps people in specific areas now is more level based than anything else, unless someone's coming back to pick up missed quests or deeds or what have you. Without that attraction, people won't stay where you want / need them to stay.

    Also, with the lack of NPC's to give quests, items, etc., there doesn't appear to be a mechanism for Freeple, at least, to change/swap/upgrade/whatever their gear, or level up.

    I suspect there is more work involved in implementing this than you do. But I'm not here to argue. Just to critique and add alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    there would be no layering due to, again, overpopulation debuff that is based on how much higher the population saturation is in one area than the avrage of the others. this would encourage spreading.

    you would be supprised what servers can handle... it took an insane amount of people (like 300 i think) to crash a server when they organaized a charge into the mirkwood 1 shots before mirkwood release... and that was 300 people charging into one little area (special random port mechanics will assure that that never happens, debuffs will discourage it.)
    Honestly, I think the concept of driving a region specific (and region limited) mob in the normal server space will require less work. And fewer modifications that really wouldn't make a lot of sense - like population based buff/debuffs.

    Realize you don't like the idea, but it's presented with the same motivation you present yours: better gaming.

    As for required changes, I suspect they are much less involved than you do. Since I don't know for sure what's going on behind the scenes, I can only go from experience in other code projects and game designs, so my thoughts are based on experience. You seem to speak authoritatively on how much work it would take to change the mobs, so if you have more information, please share.

    In any case, if it works the way I suspect it works, controlling which mobs would agro on which "characters" (PC or MPC) here, it would be a simple matter of setting flags on the character. You wouldn't be playing a straight up environmental mob, but it should be a variant thereof. Mechanically, I suspect the mobs have "internal" skills and traits just as characters do - it would make sense from an architecture standpoint - so making one playable would be fairly straightforward. They would be limited, and not advance, and would probably be something session-play style limited. You log in as one of, say, a dozen available Signature class mobs for the area and are limited to where you can and can't go.

    Each area would have it's limited stack, possibly scaled by current population.

    This avoids reworking everything on the whole world, and presents the challenge at more than just End Game levels.

    I'm not seriously presenting this, obviously, because they'll never implement. But it's there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    really if its done right, and post release every server's population will be assinged a "starting zone" (ie im an elendmir creep, im ploped into non-capturable (but mostly not non-enterable)goblin town in misty mountains. while my buddy on windfola gets set down in a war-camp somewhere in angmar)
    That seems like it would add more to the problem than it would solve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    if its done right there will be no more lag than there is now. the population will be allowed to mix and migle while maintaining a smooth consistency of players thoughout the world (again via said mechaincs)
    The idea is nice, but I don't think it will work out how you think it will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    and as with the NPC driving... again see my previous post.... it requiers a re-engineering of every mob in the game.... that alone will be a huge undertaking for what little reward there will be (its not really that big of a thing to warrent it.... PVMP on the other hand is a big thing in other games) it will actually be more work to re-work the entire world NPCs (and btw if you drive an NPC.... its gonna be weak and get blown up by freeps E-Z, your also gonna hafter install guards everywhere there is a PVE camp.... and the PVErs will cry.) than to make one PVMP server.
    See above. I think it will be less work to include a "Drive a mob" mechanic than to rework the entire world to remove NPC's, add keeps and control points, areas friendly to different sides, and what have you.

    I seem to remember the GM's at one point driving a Troll through Bree - so the mechanic probably already exists. It would just take some sort of mechanism to open it to "normal" players.

    Cheers,
    Hobbits . . .
    Now them's good eatin'!

  21. #21
    I love the idea, but even if Turbine wants to do this, they have to get permission from Middle-earth Enterprises and I think they didn't want to see open world PvP from the start.

    But I think they should make seperate servers for Moors, merge some smaller server PvP with bigger ones. I don't really know how PvP is in smaller servers(I play in Landroval), but I guess it would liven PvP everywhere and bring more people into it. More people from smaller servers would join because now they have something to kill.

    Same thing with Instance Finder, make it all servers wide so we could actually use it for finding instances rather than just get the currency buff. By instances I mean RoI 6 and 3-mans, not duo skirmishes.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light12 View Post
    its been said before, ignored before, supported before.
    I'm sure many times.

    Here's my version: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?466444-Save-PVP

    I was deeding in Barrow Downs recently at Ost Gorthod (where Bone Man is) and I was thinking of how cool it would be for a kin to "own" it and for the creeps to try and take it back or vice versa.

    Regarding lag, with the whole map to fight in, I think it could be spread out where there was not major spot plus they could do layering.
    Last edited by ColorSpecs; Aug 06 2012 at 11:36 AM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    I'm sure many times.

    Here's my version: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?466444-Save-PVP

    I was deeding in Barrow Downs recently at Ost Gorthod (where Bone Man is) and I was thinking of how cool it would be for a kin to "own" it and for the creeps to try and take it back or vice versa.

    Regarding lag, with the whole map to fight in, I think it could be spread out where there was not major spot plus they could do layering.
    ooo i read it when you posted that one. good idea. but still lets just face it, IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!

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    -OR-

    they could just use the maps they already have, put keeps and OP's in the landscape, then rotate the maps monthly. Cheap, Effective and fun.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/012030100000ae792/signature.png]Eunuch[/charsig]
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkshipOfLanterns View Post
    they could just use the maps they already have, put keeps and OP's in the landscape, then rotate the maps monthly. Cheap, Effective and fun.
    That would actually be cool. Biggest trouble I see is the Creepside maps. I'm sure there could be some mechanism to make them more generic "Keep A" "Keep B" etc., with different tiers. But I think it would be a big disadvantage to the Creeps initially. Having to relearn map targets every month would be frustrating.

    But still . . . leveraging existing maps would be pretty cool.
    Hobbits . . .
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