We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 38
  1. #1

    What exactly was the Threat of Mordor?

    I have two questions about the power of the one ring and the Nine(Nazgul).

    What power did the one ring really have?
    The two that are clear to me are 1. Turn the wearer invisible and 2. Corrupt the hearts of those around it. However i have a difficult time understanding how it can be used to do greater harm in a larger scale. I thought that having the ring gave Sauron the power to control the others but the Dwarfs were not affected when they had the 7 and the Elves were never under his influence when they wore the 3. Also the 9 (Nazgul) were still under the control of Sauron even when he did not have the ring.
    Ideas like the ring gives the bearer the powers to shoot lightning from their finger tips or the power to turn mountains into valleys are false. All this makes it even harder to understand how it would make Sauron stronger if he ever got it back.

    What made the Nazgul so threatening?
    What was it about the 9 that made them so much stronger than regular people? They are wraiths, they wear black robes and have no face which i can imagine is intimidating but when you live in a world with nazgul, orcs, trolls, and other vile creatures a robed figure shouldn't be anything out of the ordinary. They also needed mounts to travel, weapons to fight and could be killed by regular weapons. So why where they so threatening?

  2. #2
    Sauron needs the ring to take physical form and as be able to lead his armies to rule middle earth. No one wants to remain a great big eye forever. The power of the nazgul was that no man could kill them, trolls, orcs etc could all be killed but the nazgul could not be killed by any man.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Himring
    Posts
    713
    I guess its not clearly defined, and I'm sure the elves of Eregion thought the same thing too, secure in their own technological superiority. Frodo tells Gollum he could compell him to jump into the fires of doom if he wished, so possibly the ring can compell the allegiance of persons of an evil bent to your will, witness the disorientation of mordors forces after the destruction of the ring when they are freed of its influence.

    Sauron seems to have been capable of only attracting a small band of lackies in the first age, if he was capable of building his army of hundreds of thousands prior to making his ring then I guess he would have done so in the early years of the third age rather than waiting 1600 years.
    Last edited by Morthaur; Aug 01 2012 at 03:57 AM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/042080000001019a8/01007/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    "Of course I am the only elf in the village"

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Memory of Laurelin
    Posts
    1,243
    Quote Originally Posted by Fairymore View Post
    I have two questions about the power of the one ring and the Nine(Nazgul).

    What power did the one ring really have?
    The two that are clear to me are 1. Turn the wearer invisible and 2. Corrupt the hearts of those around it. However i have a difficult time understanding how it can be used to do greater harm in a larger scale. I thought that having the ring gave Sauron the power to control the others but the Dwarfs were not affected when they had the 7 and the Elves were never under his influence when they wore the 3. Also the 9 (Nazgul) were still under the control of Sauron even when he did not have the ring.
    Ideas like the ring gives the bearer the powers to shoot lightning from their finger tips or the power to turn mountains into valleys are false. All this makes it even harder to understand how it would make Sauron stronger if he ever got it back.
    Note: Don't have the books at hand at the moment, so take with a grain of salt, because I'm paraphrasing.

    Somewhere near the beginning of the story of Lord of the Rings, when Frodo talks with Gandalf about the Ring, the wizard comments about how the Ring 'grants power' according to its user. Galadriel says about the same later, in Lórien. And that's one reason why both Gandalf and Galadriel refuse the Ring: they'd use it for good, but all that was done with it would end wrong.
    The Dwarves were not affected by their seven rings the same way as the mortal men's nine affected them, because Dwarves are not Men. The seven rings of Dwarves made them greedier and multiplied their riches. They didn't become wraiths like the Men because Dwarves have different mental stamina. Because Sauron couldn't get them under his will, he took back the rings (that weren't already destroyed) he'd given the Dwarves.
    The Elven rings were never touched by Sauron, and they kept them hidden from him, as best as they could.

    When Sauron made his Ring, he poured much of himself into it; when he wielded it, he was at the peak of his power.
    When he lost it, then, he was lessened. That's why he remained dormant for a good while after the Battle of Last Alliance, in which he lost the Ring. He had to pull himself back together.
    Think of it like this: the Ring gives Sauron +50% on everything. When he made the Ring, he put 50% of himself into it.
    With the Ring, he's 150% Sauron; without it, he's 50% Sauron.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fairymore View Post
    What made the Nazgul so threatening?
    What was it about the 9 that made them so much stronger than regular people? They are wraiths, they wear black robes and have no face which i can imagine is intimidating but when you live in a world with nazgul, orcs, trolls, and other vile creatures a robed figure shouldn't be anything out of the ordinary. They also needed mounts to travel, weapons to fight and could be killed by regular weapons. So why where they so threatening?
    Keyword here is wraith; the Nâzgul (Black Speech, translates as Ringwraiths in Common) were unlike any creature ever in the history of Middle-earth. They have an aura of dread (notice how the minimap in the game turns into a flaming eye whenever near one? ); you cannot fight when you're nearly dying of terror. And that aura is part of their power. It's not something living things have, the single exception being the dragons.
    Sauron gave the nine rings to the kings of men, and when they died, they ceased to be human and became, in effect, extensions of Sauron's will. They don't have have physical bodies, merely garments, because they are needed to interact with the world. That's why they also need mounts to travel.

    They used weapons, yes. Because everyone does. Including Sauron. And Sauron's master.
    Nâzgul didn't have physical bodies, so weapons were one way to interact with the world. The only way they could touch. On top of that... get touched by a Nâzgul's weapon, start the countdown on becoming a lesser wraith.

    However... they could be killed by regular weapons?
    I'm sorry: what?

    Quote Originally Posted by SPARTIOTIS View Post
    --- Sauron needs the ring to take physical form and as be able to lead his armies to rule middle earth. No one wants to remain a great big eye forever.---
    Sauron didn't need the Ring to take physical form; the lidless, flaming eye was a symbol of Sauron, not Sauron himself. Even though it took him a while to gather his strength after losing the Ring, he could take a physical form at will; it just couldn't be a fair form, anymore.
    Last edited by Daeross; Aug 01 2012 at 07:28 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Middle-earth
    Posts
    1,700
    Quote Originally Posted by SPARTIOTIS View Post
    Sauron needs the ring to take physical form and as be able to lead his armies to rule middle earth. No one wants to remain a great big eye forever. The power of the nazgul was that no man could kill them, trolls, orcs etc could all be killed but the nazgul could not be killed by any man.
    Sorry but I need to correct you there. Only in those movies is Sauron a "great big eye". In truth he has a physical form despite not having the ring.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,242
    As said before, Sauron needed the ring to regain the power that was native to him, along with the extra power the Ring gave him. He also needed it (though he didn't know it) to protect himself from utter defeat:

    In the Third Age, Sauron's opponents were weaker than ever before (though still quite strong), Sauron had easy access to his primary foe (in TA that was Gondor), and his forces were larger than they were in the days of the Last Alliance. All in all, Sauron would've won the war if he had not made the Ring.

    The Ring enhanced the powers that Sauron already had, physically and mentally, and it gave him complete domination over the other 19 rings. Most importantly to Sauron, it revealed the Three Rings to Sauron, and he could destroy Galadriel and Elrond, two people pretty high up in his hit list. The Ring also allowed Sauron to dominate lesser minds with ease, and strengthened all his servants, as Sauron's will was also strengthened.

    The Nazgul were extremely feared, because:

    1. Their Rings gave them new powers of sorcery. They expanded their physical strength, and also amplified the fear that went with them. Indeed, had LOTRO been truer to the lore, the Nazgul would've killed us if we encountered it solo (Instance: Fire and Ice, solo version).

    2. The fear that went with them was the main power they had. They could drive their foes to madness, and strike such terror into the hearts of Men that they would flee and gain a huge strategical disadvantage.

    3. The fear that went with them also made them nearly unmatched in command; their servants would obey them unquestioningly, and, as the lore states, they would even slay themselves if commanded so by a Nazgul.

    4. They could not be killed by any weapons, as long as the Ring was safe.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Haunt123 View Post
    4. They could not be killed by any weapons, as long as the Ring was safe.
    Unless, of course, the weapons in question were crafted specifically for the killing of their kind, and happened to be wielded by angry hobbits and even angrier women.

    Even the Professor knew that "Hell hath no fury..."

    Some must fight, so that all may be free.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    England
    Posts
    753
    Haunt's post pretty much summed everything up. The Ring restores Sauron to his full power, and gives him the ability to fully exert his will over the other rings.

    One thing I would add is that this concept of "the Ring as a weapon" arose from Men who mistook what the Ring really was and how it worked. They heard of the Ring and it's immense value to Sauron. They probably knew vaguely that if Sauron had the Ring he would become more powerful. They'd also know that the Ring was "responsible" for Isildur's death. All this, combined with the straight forward and naive thinking of Men (compared with the other races) lead them to believe it was some sort of weapon that they could bend to their will and use against Sauron.

    Obviously that isn't true but it is part of the Ring's power over lesser minds. The Ring induces temptation and obsession and postpones rational thinking and logic, much like Sean Bean when he attempts to take the Ring from Frodo.

    Like Haunt says, the Nazgul were (as far as the common man/soldier is concerned) invincible servants of Sauron. They had almost a direct connection to him since they had been completely corrupted and bent to his will by their Rings. The films don't really do justice to how terrifying and down right disturbing they are supposed to be, but I imagine it's difficult to capture that on film without sending at least a few cast members insane.

    Again, like Haunt says the meetings with the Nazgul in game are a little "throw away" for my liking. All but the most powerful spirits would be pretty much immobilised by fear and dread if a Nazgul was concentrating on them. Eowyn's stand against the WK was successful really only through the WK's arrogance. While Eowyn was immensely brave to even stand against him, had he not been so sure of his own "invincibility" he would have been more wary and probably finished Eowyn and Merry off within seconds. I doubt he was expecting there to be a Hobbit walking around with an ancient blade imbued with the power to break his Morgul vial, to be fair.

    Off topic, really, but the downfall of Sauron and his servants is littered with overconfidence on their part.
    [CENTER][I][FONT=georgia]"Never laugh at live dragons"[/FONT][/I]
    [/CENTER]

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,242
    Quote Originally Posted by GV-Tanith View Post
    Even the Professor knew that "Hell hath no fury..."

    A fury before which even the Lord of the Nazgul cowered with fear

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    120
    As I recall, Sauron never had power over the Three, because the Three existed before the others (since they were the Silmarils). If he got the One back though, I'm pretty sure he would have had power over what remained of the Seven, and of course he always had power over the Nine.

    The One would have amplified Sauron's power, and make him pretty much unstoppable since the last time he had the One (Battle of Dagorlad, was it? When it was cut off?) it took the combined armies of Men and Elves, and some of the greatest heroes in the world (i.e. Elendil and Gil-galad) to defeat him, he nearly annihilated their forces and really only lost because Isildur got lucky. There wasn't any such force in the Third Age, or even close to it, so if he had gotten the One back nothing would have been able to withstand him.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    955
    Quote Originally Posted by LichKingOfAngmar View Post
    As I recall, Sauron never had power over the Three, because the Three existed before the others (since they were the Silmarils).
    The three elven rings were not silmarils.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/062050000000188f7/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    [url=http://www.hostmerchantservices.com/articles/]Articles I write[/url]
    [url=http://www.hostmerchantservices.com/blog/]My blog[/url]

  12. #12
    Also, in the War of the Last Alliance, Sauron didn't lose because Isildur "got lucky." He lost because the Last Alliance laid siege to Barad-dûr for seven years, killed pretty much his whole army, and his only option was single combat with Gil-Galad and Elendil. Gil-Galad and Elendil defeated him, though the effort killed them, and only then did Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's hand. He took it as weregild for his father and his brother Anarion, who was killed by a stone-cast from the Dark Tower during the siege.

    Basically, the reason Sauron created the Ring was the same reason that Morgoth put so much of his power into the very fabric of Arda: by imbuing a physical object with some of his native power, he is able to exert greater control in the physical world. In addition, the Ring allowed him to see the thoughts of any who wielded one of the other Rings and to gain control of anything that had been wrought with the power of the other Rings, even the Three. That's why he had to put so much of his own power into the Ring: since he helped with the making of the Seven and the Nine, he could control them easily even without the One. The Three, however, were made by Celebrimbor without the aid of Sauron, only with the knowledge that he had learned from him. They were stronger and he needed a more powerful "key" to open any back doors he might have left in the knowledge he gave to Celebrimbor.

    The real power of the Ring was the control it gave over other wills, both over other wills in general and over the wills of the other Ringbearers in particular. If you compare the histories of Sauron and Morgoth, Morgoth seems to simply want to destroy and remake in his image, while Sauron is content to dominate the wills of all others, killing them only as a last resort.

    The Éored of the West-Mark ~ Lore-accurate Rohirric Kinship on Landroval

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Middle-earth
    Posts
    1,700
    Quote Originally Posted by LichKingOfAngmar View Post
    As I recall, Sauron never had power over the Three, because the Three existed before the others (since they were the Silmarils).
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    England
    Posts
    753
    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    Brony.jpg
    The Silmarils ended up in (and in a way representing) air, fire and water. The three rings represent these three elements as well, maybe that's what Lich meant?
    [CENTER][I][FONT=georgia]"Never laugh at live dragons"[/FONT][/I]
    [/CENTER]

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Middle-earth
    Posts
    1,700
    Quote Originally Posted by Curandhras View Post
    The Silmarils ended up in (and in a way representing) air, fire and water. The three rings represent these three elements as well, maybe that's what Lich meant?
    If he did, he has an odd way of putting it.
    In any case, even if the Three were symbolic representations of the Silmarils, they would not be tied to their power or have a comparable time scale.

    But back on topic, it is assumed Sauron did have a certain degree of control over the Three;
    Though they were not created directly by him, they were still created using Sauron's methods and teachings.
    When Sauron created the One, the Elves perceived his intent and took off the Three. This indicates the Three had a connection to the One.
    Taking them off likely saved them from falling under control of the One, although how much of a degree of control is unknown.
    Last edited by BirdofHermes; Sep 02 2012 at 02:46 PM.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    609
    Just gonna touch base real quick with how the Three would be affected with the One. Essentially when Sauron wore the One he could sense the thoughts of all who wore their rings, whether it be one of the Great Rings or the minor ones. So basically, if Sauron had retreived the One again, he would have been able to read Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf's thoughts, know their true plans, and how to conquer them all.

    Plus as others have said; Sauron put much of his original power into the One, so that with it he would be more than powerful enough to control all those who held the other rings. Which is why after the Elves in the Second Age found out they would be betrayed, that they took them off. That they would never wear them so long as Sauron held the One. So when Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's hand, the Elves could then start to work to heal their lands, to keep such things preserved for as long as possible. Which is why no matter how the War of the Ring would have went, sorrow would follow for the Elves. Cause once the One was destroyed, the Three would lose their power, since they were tied to the One's power.

    Eodread, Earendel, Isilmacil - Horizon
    Thattickles, Thangorodread - Table Smashers


  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Memory of Laurelin
    Posts
    1,243
    Quote Originally Posted by Isilmacil View Post
    ---Which is why no matter how the War of the Ring would have went, sorrow would follow for the Elves. Cause once the One was destroyed, the Three would lose their power, since they were tied to the One's power.
    "---Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. ---"
    -Galadriel to Frodo in Lórien, in Fellowship of the Ring

    "---He only needs the One; for he made that Ring himself, it is his, and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it, so that he could rule all the others. If he recovers it, then he will command them all again, wherever they be, even the Three, and all that has been wrought with them will be laid bare, and he will be stronger than ever.---"
    -Gandalf to Frodo in the Shire, in Fellowship of the Ring

    Just thought these quotes might illustrate your point.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by Haunt123 View Post
    All in all, Sauron would've won the war if he had not made the Ring.
    That is not quite right, my friend.

    If Sauron had not made the ring, he would died and drowned in the sinking of Numenor. But even if that is debatable, this is not: Elendil and Gil-galad killed him; without the ring, he would not have returned at all. The ring was the only thing that would enable his victory, in his eyes: but, because evil is never fully allowed to conquer over righteousness, the one weapon proved to ensure his utter defeat, as he could not live without it in existance from the moment he made it.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0120300000016a64f/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Cookie Land
    Posts
    1,617
    Quote Originally Posted by Aieglos View Post
    That is not quite right, my friend.

    If Sauron had not made the ring, he would died and drowned in the sinking of Numenor. But even if that is debatable, this is not: Elendil and Gil-galad killed him; without the ring, he would not have returned at all. The ring was the only thing that would enable his victory, in his eyes: but, because evil is never fully allowed to conquer over righteousness, the one weapon proved to ensure his utter defeat, as he could not live without it in existance from the moment he made it.
    No! There is a thing known as the butterfly effect. Without the one ring being made, no event is assured of happening in the same way after; or indeed of happening at all.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    5,670
    Quote Originally Posted by Aieglos View Post
    That is not quite right, my friend.

    If Sauron had not made the ring, he would died and drowned in the sinking of Numenor. But even if that is debatable, this is not: Elendil and Gil-galad killed him; without the ring, he would not have returned at all. The ring was the only thing that would enable his victory, in his eyes: but, because evil is never fully allowed to conquer over righteousness, the one weapon proved to ensure his utter defeat, as he could not live without it in existance from the moment he made it.
    Not quite right, my friend. Sauron, being Maia, is deathless within Arda. In taking on a 'mortal' or 'biological' form, said form could be destroyed (which happened twice); but the spirit (fea) could not. It would be 'houseless' or 'unclothed'. Sauron, without the ring, with the ring still in existence, continued to have the ability to take on a 'mortal' form (but could not appear 'fair' or 'good'). Once the ring was destroyed, all that had been made with it was destroyed. Sauron was diminished to a powerless, houseless, spirit. His punishment fit his crimes. Morgoth, his master and mentor, though was the ultimate nihilist. If he couldn't dominate it, he would eternally seek to destroy it. His punishment, which also fit his crimes, was banishment into eternal solitary confinement.
    "No sadder words of tongue or pen are the words: 'Might have been'." -- John Greenleaf Whittier
    "Do or do not. There is no try." -- Yoda
    On planet Earth, there is a try.
    Indeed, in a world and life full of change, the only constant is human nature (A is A, after all :P).
    We old vets need to keep in mind those who come after us.

  21. #21
    the power of the ring is the power of command. to use the ring is to be a tyrant. it allows the ringbearer to bend others to his will. the last alliance was barely able to defeat the forces that sauron as ringbearer could muster, but no such alliance can exist in the third age, as neither men nor elves are what they once were.

    of course, this means that anyone with the necessary strength could use the ring, and indeed could use it against sauron. so the way that the men of gondor view the ring as a weapon isnt entirely off-base. but to use the ring is to be a tyrant, no different than sauron. meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    41
    [QUOTE Isilmacil ] Which is why no matter how the War of the Ring would have went, sorrow would follow for the Elves. Cause once the One was destroyed, the Three would lose their power, since they were tied to the One's power.[/QUOTE]

    "But what then would happen, if the Ruling Ring were destroyed, as you counsel?" asked Gloin.

    "We know not for certain," answered Elrond sadly. "Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rules might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my bel
    "If simple folk are free from care and fear, simple they will be, and we must be kept secret to keep them so."

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    Sorry but I need to correct you there. Only in those movies is Sauron a "great big eye". In truth he has a physical form despite not having the ring.
    Barad-dur, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him. And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. fellowship of the ring the breaking of the fellowship pg.401
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000027615c/01005/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    344
    I believe the reference to the eye is sauron and the Ithil-stone
    Co-Founder of TEAM F. Turined R9 champ. Mashedtaters R9 Reaver
    Perma-Retired Pre SoM- R9 Hnt. R8 Reaver

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Slin6 View Post
    I believe the reference to the eye is sauron and the Ithil-stone
    I don't know all I know is that if there was no eye of sauron why is it on the covet of the 50th anniversary edition of the lotr I have. Also why would the eye be in so many iterations of tolkiens' work
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000027615c/01005/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

 

 
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload