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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    But here's the rub...

    If I'm in ToO, I'm going to be 4 red/3 blue (more than likely), or LtC if it's T1 (cause T1 = joke), NOT HoH.

    If I am running HoH, it's cause I'm main healing stuff.
    Ah, now we´re talking! In Orthanc I´m going to be 4 blue /3 red (so mostly traits of HoH). When you talk about HoH you mean 5 blue with capstone I guess. My mistake. However, a capatin doesn´t need S&B and capstone to main heal Dargnakh, Edge, Pits, Foundry or Roots. Of course you won´t need extra survivability when you heal someone else who´s got the "aggro". But more damage is always a welcome gift! And like I said, it´s not a small amount of extra damage... it´s not only the direct dps between 1h and 2h... it is the high crit peak! and i´m at crit cap. the same thing with champions... 2h or 2 1h...

  2. #27
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    S&B is like looking at a 90% vs a 100% as far as healing goes (that difference is probably exaggerated, but it does exist).

    Truth be told, S&B is more flavor than anything else, and as long as the captain understands it does cause them a DPS decrease (because of 1H vs 2H), I wouldn't look down upon a captain that wanted to go that way - provided they aren't heavy red traited.

    But to bring this back to the thread title:
    When should a captain S&B? Generally speaking, when they are main healing, or main tanking - but it's not required for either.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    It´s not that easy I think! Survivability is not that better with a shield (crit def / 184 mitigation / with might ~ 800 block). Also I generate more threat over damage than you! Also I generate additional threat with every hit when I use a halberd. -> More threat / lower "survivability" (cmon :/ ... every minstrel and RK can heal you as a tank without any mitigation or block rating...^^)
    You've just ignored the 1000 common mits you get from armor. Unless you're assuming that you're somehow already capped? Champs don't cap their common mits without hedge and a bow. Captain's won't cap without a shield. And Crit defense is nothing to laugh at. Especially for a class that has none.

    The additional halberd threat is 2% and has been shown to only work on auto-attacks.
    Also you just said earlier you were comparing the stats on the shield to your sword? So do you also have a FA halberd with 3 crystals and the same stats? Or should we compare your tanking SA halberd to the shield... Not that it matters. Aside from the armor and the crit defense the stats are relatively unimportant.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    And that is a big mistake in my opinion! You´re not a healer! You´re a supporter for both, damage and healing! If you want to play a main healer create a minstrel! I could mainheal every 3 and 6-man instance without this HoH capstone
    This is an argument against running HoH, not against running with a shield. I think you might upset Jeremi if you go on.
    Also we are a healer... you just said it yourself.. We can mainheal 6man instances in red line.
    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    Block Rating for the bosses at Orthanc T2 Hm? öööhm nope A huuuge amout of damage loss? öööhm yep! I see myself as a healing / buffing champion!
    Well given that (T2 ) FnF & Shadow often use a captain-tank, block rating turns out to be pretty useful. I've tanked acid trolls in LtC with a shield, and switched back to a 2h for Iorweth. Also you can run 4y... Since most of the time off-tanking I don't want routing cry anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    Saruman T2 HM I´m at 1400 DPS... I don´t think you can do 1300 with S&B... but of course I will test this
    If this is accurate, then it's 1400 dps while you're traited 5r. Nobody's advocating to use a shield while you're in LtC... Because you're trying to dps. Also why did you mention saruman? Are you basically citing aoe numbers for us? Otherwise you may's well have mentioned kalbak.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuneBug View Post
    You've just ignored the 1000 common mits you get from armor. Unless you're assuming that you're somehow already capped? Champs don't cap their common mits without hedge and a bow. Captain's won't cap without a shield. And Crit defense is nothing to laugh at. Especially for a class that has none.
    Because 920 Physical Mitigation (Common Damage) is no part of "my" content as metioned above. For Orthanc or the Ettenmoors Physical Mitigation is kind of unnecessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by DuneBug View Post
    The additional halberd threat is 2% and has been shown to only work on auto-attacks.
    Also you just said earlier you were comparing the stats on the shield to your sword? So do you also have a FA halberd with 3 crystals and the same stats? Or should we compare your tanking SA halberd to the shield... Not that it matters. Aside from the armor and the crit defense the stats are relatively unimportant.
    Well it hasn´t been shown to me yet. My experience is a threat generation with every single attack. I must confess that I don´t test this persistent, but now I will! My FA 2h sword is what I compared with the stats of the shield, because they were called as a great benefit of using a shield for both, tanking and healing and also quite similar to the stats on Aranthan. For healing, I don´t see the necessity for survivability stats like Crit Defence or Block Rating (and that´s the only stats which are noteworthy in front of my FA 2h sword with Morale, Might and ICPR). My FA tanking halberd with three crystals has the same stats with Agility instead of ICPR. My goal was to reduce the noteworthy stats (like you said) of this shield to Crit Defence and Block Rating!

    I definitely see the benefit in survivability in case of Crit Defence and Block Rating, but in my opinion it´s useless for healing abilities and not needed for tanking abilities. As long as I got every NPC that was allocated to me a Runekeeper or a Mionstrel can heal me without any problems regardless of my Block Rating, Mitigation or Crit Defence. My assertion is that I can tank everything with 2h what you´re tanking with a shield. There are only two differences: I deal a great amount of Damage (especially in "healing" cases (actually I don´t like the word healing for my captain - I like supporting)) and look like a serious enemy

    Quote Originally Posted by DuneBug View Post
    This is an argument against running HoH, not against running with a shield. I think you might upset Jeremi if you go on.
    Also we are a healer... you just said it yourself.. We can mainheal 6man instances in red line.
    This is an argument against HoH, because...? Right because you don´t need the Capstone to heal these instances!

    This is also an argument against shields, because...? Right because you don´t need a shield or even every type of extra survivability (you´re still a heavy armour) to heal these instances but loose a great amount of damage which actually helps your group and yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by DuneBug View Post
    Well given that (T2 ) FnF & Shadow often use a captain-tank, block rating turns out to be pretty useful. I've tanked acid trolls in LtC with a shield, and switched back to a 2h for Iorweth. Also you can run 4y... Since most of the time off-tanking I don't want routing cry anyway.
    I could do this as well with 2h halberd. And the minstrels won´t have any problems to heal me because there are 700 Crit Defence missing. The only reason I won´t run with a shield in this case is a slightly increased threat generation of extra damage and a halberd. In my opinion this goes over the Crit Defence.

    Quote Originally Posted by DuneBug View Post
    If this is accurate, then it's 1400 dps while you're traited 5r. Nobody's advocating to use a shield while you're in LtC... Because you're trying to dps. Also why did you mention saruman? Are you basically citing aoe numbers for us? Otherwise you may's well have mentioned kalbak.
    I mentioned Saruman because this is one of the most difficult encounters in this game. Of course I could mention Kalbak! My traits while raiding: 4 HoH / 2 LtC / 1LoM (may sound strange but it´s not. it would take a long time to explain why I decided to run like that). With this built and the crit cap (of course) 1400 DPS is a standard phenomenon. As you see I don´t trait for damage for these encounters, I trait for suppport in damage and healing. I suggest that I can heal more than you with a shield and of course dealing more damage at the same time. Like I said: I understand myself as a buffing / healing / supporting (!) champion! And thats the point I dread.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    Because 920 Physical Mitigation (Common Damage) is no part of "my" content as metioned above. For Orthanc or the Ettenmoors Physical Mitigation is kind of unnecessary.
    Hypothetically speaking, if there's a captain tank or captain main healer in your ToO or Ettens group, wouldn't you want them to be a bit more survivable?

    I wouldn't shut the door to them because of personal bias.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 17 2012 at 07:44 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Hypothetically speaking, if there's a captain tank or captain main healer in your ToO or Ettens group, wouldn't you want them to be a bit more survivable?
    Orthanc

    "Captain Mainhealer": I hope we´re talking about T2 CM (I used the "german" term HM (hardmode) in my last posts)?! Personally I won´t go ToO in T1 or normal T2! In T2 CM, my familiar setting, I wouldn´t let a captain try to mainheal anything. Why should I do that? A captain as "mainhealer" with HoH capstone and a shield is nothing more than a yellow skilled minstrel with with "bad" healing abilities. Try to mainheal Saruman T2 CM: Good Luck!

    "Captain Maintank": Also talking about T2 CM. While enconters like Kalbak are very easy to tank (because it´s just one stupid NPC)(also I could tank him without a shield because minstrels and Runekeepers produce such an overheal) you can try to get six Saruman´s instant and survive at least one minute with your cute shield. Again: Good Luck!

    We don´t have to talk about T1 because in T1 I could tank Kalbak with my Hunter if I´m a funny guy... and why should someone go T1?

    Ettenmoors

    I really wait for that question about a captain "mainhealer" in the Ettenmoors. I think we can leave the tank out here.

    "Captain Mainhealer": My trait built is changing in groups as a supporter in the Ettenmoors from 4 blue /2 red /1 yellow to 5 blue (without capstone) / 2 yellow. This is just because I definitly need the battlerezz with 2,5 min CD and the fast swapping mark because of fast switching targets My assignment and purpose as a captain in the moors is to move with the other melees to the front and cut some monsters their heads off! I have to be on every single target because of my telling /revealing mark. I have to deal a great amount of damage because it depends on everyone if the target is dying or not. You have to click your Rallying Cry every six seconds so that you can alone support your group fully with power and your minstrel with healing. Against a unorganized group or raid of monsters, you don´t need a minstrel as healer because monsters deal no damage in low numbers or with no focus but you don´t have to skill on HoH capstone and you don´t need extra survivability because you´re not the focused target! If the monster group or raid is well organized you can heal as much as you want with your shield (*lol*) or a blue capstone. You can´t save your group alone! A real mainhealer is a must have because of big instant heals and a bigger amount of general healing.


    So to your main question: "[...]wouldn't you want them to be a bit more survivable?"

    No, they don´t have to!

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I wouldn't shut the door to them because of personal bias.
    Maybe, yeah... but in my opinion there is no need for S&B captains in any endcontent situation of this game. This is my opinion but I tolerate yours as well.

    I still think: I see my captain as a supporting champion (mix of all traitlines)! You see your captain as a yellow skilled minstrel /full healer /full tank!
    Last edited by OverlordGate; Jul 18 2012 at 10:44 AM.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    Because 920 Physical Mitigation (Common Damage) is no part of "my" content as metioned above. For Orthanc or the Ettenmoors Physical Mitigation is kind of unnecessary.
    apparently i have to point out the obvious... There is other content than the moors and ToO. And there's still plenty of common damage in orthanc trash.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    I definitely see the benefit in survivability in case of Crit Defence and Block Rating, but in my opinion it´s useless for healing abilities and not needed for tanking abilities. As long as I got every NPC that was allocated to me a Runekeeper or a Mionstrel can heal me without any problems regardless of my Block Rating, Mitigation or Crit Defence. My assertion is that I can tank everything with 2h what you´re tanking with a shield.
    A. blocking doesn't help you heal, it does help you survive when the tank misses a mob.

    B. Of course you can tank everything, you'll just end up dying more often. How much more is un-quantifiable. Extra survivability is completely un-needed... until it is needed and you just died.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    I mentioned Saruman because this is one of the most difficult encounters in this game. Of course I could mention Kalbak! My traits while raiding: 4 HoH / 2 LtC / 1LoM (may sound strange but it´s not. it would take a long time to explain why I decided to run like that). With this built and the crit cap (of course) 1400 DPS is a standard phenomenon. As you see I don´t trait for damage for these encounters, I trait for suppport in damage and healing.
    There's no way in hell you're hitting 1400 dps average in a rainbow build (especially in saruman, where there is sooooo much downtime) unless it's because your kin burgzerg'd and double OB'd and that's what you're calling 1400 dps. Red Line captains don't even hit those kind of numbers with 5% more crit than you and improved un-gated SL.

    Average dps while healing is like 500-600. While tanking is even less. Dropping to a 1h will drop your damage in those setups by about 20%.

  8. #33
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    I used sword and board back when Isengard instances were released because I wanted to try out Captain tanking 3-6 mans. While Captain tanking is way, way worse than a Warden (my grd is 46 so wont say anything about grd tanking), I actually found it to be quite fun

    The only times I really use sword and board is in the Ettenmoors and if the tank dies in a pug 3-6 mans and I find myself to be next in line. Even a LtC Captain can tank most bosses decently, or at least way better than forcing hunters, rks or burglars to tank it.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuneBug View Post
    apparently i have to point out the obvious... There is other content than the moors and ToO.
    Not for me and that´s why I argue like this. And because of this it is my personal opinion of playing a captain.

    Quote Originally Posted by DuneBug View Post
    A. blocking doesn't help you heal, it does help you survive when the tank misses a mob.

    B. Of course you can tank everything, you'll just end up dying more often. How much more is un-quantifiable. Extra survivability is completely un-needed... until it is needed and you just died.
    A. You talk about the captain as if you´re a light armour and that you culd be oneshoted! God damn, you´re a heavy armour with good vita mitigations! If (!) the tank misses a mob, it won´t kill you. I never ever get in the situation where a missed mob could have killed me. Even if this missed mob is Sauron himself!

    B. My captain as a tank is pretty rare. Because in raids where you need a real tank I have a guardian by my side. But when Book 5 goes live and all run into the Orthanc 3-man instances I tanked all of these instances with yellow capstone and 2h without dying. You cannot die with a runekeeper on your side...^^

    Quote Originally Posted by DuneBug View Post
    There's no way in hell you're hitting 1400 dps average in a rainbow build (especially in saruman, where there is sooooo much downtime) unless it's because your kin burgzerg'd and double OB'd and that's what you're calling 1400 dps. Red Line captains don't even hit those kind of numbers with 5% more crit than you and improved un-gated SL.

    Average dps while healing is like 500-600. While tanking is even less. Dropping to a 1h will drop your damage in those setups by about 20%.
    You´re kidding right? 1400 DPS is a completely normal figure with 2 red traits! I don´t talk about average... Sarumans first and second phase have no downtime! Of course this figure decrease with increasing fight from phase four on. But at encounters like Kalbak 1400 DPS is no problem with 47% chance of crit (25 + 10 + 2x6). And I don´t think with 1-2 burgs you "burgzerg´d" a encounter. In red this is even higher.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    But at encounters like Kalbak 1400 DPS is no problem with 47% chance of crit (25 + 10 + 2x6). And I don´t think with 1-2 burgs you "burgzerg´d" a encounter. In red this is even higher.
    Now that I would like to see. My Captain is an alt after all, but I dont find myself doing 1400 DPS in there even with 3 dagor/3 peservance and 5 red traits - I'm doing more like 1200 DPS. Doing 1400 DPS with only 2 red traits is quite an improvement, I'll gladly take lessons.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Now that I would like to see. My Captain is an alt after all, but I dont find myself doing 1400 DPS in there even with 3 dagor/3 peservance and 5 red traits - I'm doing more like 1200 DPS. Doing 1400 DPS with only 2 red traits is quite an improvement, I'll gladly take lessons.
    Would you like to tell me about your crit and might? Also we´re talking about raidsituation. If I would walk solo in this trait built through the Limlight Valley I would definitly deal no 1400 DPS

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    Would you like to tell me about your crit and might? Also we´re talking about raidsituation. If I would walk solo in this trait built through the Limlight Valley I would definitly deal no 1400 DPS
    Actually, I'm curious too, can you link your cappy, and give us an LI relic and title listing?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    A. You talk about the captain as if you´re a light armour and that you culd be oneshoted! God damn, you´re a heavy armour with good vita mitigations! If (!) the tank misses a mob, it won´t kill you. I never ever get in the situation where a missed mob could have killed me. Even if this missed mob is Sauron himself!
    Captain self-healing sucks, so every hit you take is life you're probably not going to get back for quite awhile.
    Besides that, while healing i get 1h animations.
    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    B. My captain as a tank is pretty rare. Because in raids where you need a real tank I have a guardian by my side. But when Book 5 goes live and all run into the Orthanc 3-man instances I tanked all of these instances with yellow capstone and 2h without dying. You cannot die with a runekeeper on your side...^^
    It's possible that you've never died in a 3man instance, but pretty unlikely and at this point i'm starting to disbelieve a lot of your claims. I've run with scrubs and died countless times, and run with t2 raiders and still died because we were screwing around or got very very unlucky.

    I'm replying to this topic because someone wanted advice about when to run with a shield. Your advice seems to be... If you run with an awesome RK and there's very little chance of you dying: don't wear a shield. Is that about right?

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuneBug View Post
    Your advice seems to be... If you run with an awesome RK and there's very little chance of you dying: don't wear a shield. Is that about right?
    To end up all this in short:

    Don´t wear a shield! You don´t need extra survivability! As a captain you support damage and healing equally! While damage is greatly reduced with S&B you won´t lose healing with a 2h!

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Actually, I'm curious too, can you link your cappy, and give us an LI relic and title listing?
    I would like to, but there´s an error when I try to view my charakter settings above. Just try to search for Maywyn in the search box above. If this runs I´ll post relics etc.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuneBug View Post
    It's possible that you've never died in a 3man instance, but pretty unlikely and at this point i'm starting to disbelieve a lot of your claims.
    The last time someone disbelieves my claims I posted a video... he never ever answered after posting it. I just can make a video of tanking... don´t know... Dargnakh maybe (?) with 2h... and while I go in the kitchen making some coffee you can see a minstrel or runekeeper healing my captain.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    Would you like to tell me about your crit and might? Also we´re talking about raidsituation. If I would walk solo in this trait built through the Limlight Valley I would definitly deal no 1400 DPS
    My might and crit are not really vital to YOUR dps. But if you really want to know, I'm at 9k crit and 2.2k might.
    As I quoted your bit about doing 1400 DPS at Kalbak, I'm quite aware that it's a raid situation as Kalbak is a raid boss.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    My might and crit are not really vital to YOUR dps. But if you really want to know, I'm at 9k crit and 2.2k might.
    As I quoted your bit about doing 1400 DPS at Kalbak, I'm quite aware that it's a raid situation as Kalbak is a raid boss.
    Well then you do something very wrong! With buffed stats, Telling Mark, 2 Burglar Signs, Sure Strike Debuff, ~50% crit chance, minstrel buff, bear debuff, rk debuff and so on no ~1400 DPS is... surprising...

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    Well then you do something very wrong! With buffed stats, Telling Mark, 2 Burglar Signs, Sure Strike Debuff, ~50% crit chance, minstrel buff, bear debuff, rk debuff and so on no ~1400 DPS is... surprising...
    First of all none in my kin is using the Command set for the Sure Strike debuff.
    Secondly, how do you get it to be 50% crit chance?
    I have about 27% crit on my own, 12% from Burglars and 5% from LM. Are you including the dev chance?

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    First of all none in my kin is using the Command set for the Sure Strike debuff.
    Secondly, how do you get it to be 50% crit chance?
    I have about 27% crit on my own, 12% from Burglars and 5% from LM. Are you including the dev chance?
    You forgot to add the unknown crit defences that every mob has ^^ Especially raid bosses : )
    That's the problem when you add non-personal numbers to the maths .

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    First of all none in my kin is using the Command set for the Sure Strike debuff.
    Secondly, how do you get it to be 50% crit chance?
    I have about 27% crit on my own, 12% from Burglars and 5% from LM. Are you including the dev chance?
    This is not my fault when you don´t want to use what the game gives you :P

    Crit Chance: 25% Base + 10% Dev. + 12% Burglar + 5% Loremaster

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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    You forgot to add the unknown crit defences that every mob has ^^ Especially raid bosses : )
    That's the problem when you add non-personal numbers to the maths .
    And how would that crit defence work in OverlordGate's favour? If anything that'd bring a Captain even further from 50% crit.


    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    This is not my fault when you don´t want to use what the game gives you :P

    Crit Chance: 25% Base + 10% Dev. + 12% Burglar + 5% Loremaster
    Less bla bla bla on my setup and more proof from your side. Even 10% more damage from SS debuff wouldn't get me to 1400 DPS.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Jul 19 2012 at 02:19 PM.

 

 
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