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  1. #1

    When to Sword and Board?

    I have been mostly soloing my captain, but also doing a lot of skirmishes.

    Most of the time I go with a 2H weapon, but I found some survivability problems with the skirm boss encounters. I've begun experimenting with a shield for the tougher fights, and it seems to be helping, without too much sacrifice of DPS.

    My question is then, when should a captain generally go Sword and Board? Or, should I just work on buffing my survivability with 2-handed weapons?
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  2. #2
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    You can when you're tanking with LoM, provided you feel confident in your threat generation to not need the DPS threat from a two hander, and you're OK without having the halberd +threat.

    You can also go S&B while in HoH - the shield will generally have better stats than your 2H's built in stats, and the attack speed increase means your skills/minute will increase.

    Personally, I run 2H - but I wouldn't give a second thought to a someone in HoH or LoM that ran S&B.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  3. #3
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    whenever you want to! if you like using a shield, do it! dont let anyone stop you. this is entertainment.

    as for my opinion, a shield will not really help your survivability. the reason being is it will take you longer to kill stuff, prolonging the fights. faster battles are safer, generally speaking. less likely to deal with patrols or resawns (though resapwns are not a factor in skirms).


    the general feel of this board is to use a shield when running dedicated heals. you can fire off skills faster with a one-hand weapon and control your stats a little better because of the nature of stats on LIs and 2-hnd weps.


    again, do what you like!
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fledermaus View Post
    I have been mostly soloing my captain, but also doing a lot of skirmishes.

    Most of the time I go with a 2H weapon, but I found some survivability problems with the skirm boss encounters. I've begun experimenting with a shield for the tougher fights, and it seems to be helping, without too much sacrifice of DPS.

    My question is then, when should a captain generally go Sword and Board? Or, should I just work on buffing my survivability with 2-handed weapons?
    I personally would never use a sword and board unless I found myself in a situation where I wasn't particpating in melee - which is so rare for me it just isn't worth the investment. In my opinion it's a bad trade off, and the amount of damage you lose from those hard-hitting criticals just isn't worth the neglibile stat increases.

    BUT that being said, I should point out I don't tank and play a HoH Captain and rely on my Protector to tank skirmish boss encounters for me. So I'm in a different situation than you - and can't speak to the added survivivality wearing a Shield may give you. So it might be worth it for you to do.

    So In the end Sapien is right. You should do it if you like it. I'm sure a sword/board weilding Captain can be effective. In fact there are many on this forum who may it work just fine. So just use which ever you prefer. In the end it's all about preference and that individual Captain's personal priorties.

  5. #5
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    Only traitline where S&B doesn't make a lot of sense is LtC.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  6. #6
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    Agreed that a shield can work with pretty much any build that isn't dedicated LtC. I don't really like the aesthetic, personally, plus I normally do build for either LtC capstone or a 4R/3B hybrid, but that's mostly a personal choice.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
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  7. #7
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    This is not my way of saying 'use the search function'. I'd put these in a FAQ/Sticky if i could.

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ed-2hand-sword
    it got derailed on the last page... but at least we didn't invoke godwin's law.

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-handed-shield

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-Hander-or-SnB


    Short answer is... Shield is pretty useful if you're main-healing, or tanking. Or if you're trying to solo very hard content.

    Quote Originally Posted by DuneBug View Post
    Tanking:
    I think the shield ought to justify itself. 1000 armor and 600 crit defense + some assorted stats is nothing to gloss over. Nevertheless, The main reason to use a 2h is more damage = more threat. But if you aren't losing threat, then why would you still use a 2h?
    Quote Originally Posted by DuneBug View Post
    I can't really think of a reason to use a 2h for (healing) simple content like Isen 3man's, Foundry, or skirm raids. Your dps doesn't matter unless you're doing like a 4/12 man skirmraid or something. And, the more time you spend hitting heals or buffs the less time you spend actually swinging, which just favors the 1h more. Also you can trait a few yellows and try to tank in any spec, and you'll have block... Which is kinda cool.
    105 (Captain, Champion, Guardian)

  8. #8
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    It all depends on whether you have already made yourself a 1-handed weapon.

    If you have , then enjoy it , use 1h+shield when you are on pure healing duty / or even tanking ?
    The big bonus is mostly the extra armor boost you get from the light shield.You also receive a block percentage , though you would get that anyway on tanking mode , from leader of men capstone.Still,it's usefull if you are healing,you can negate some extra hits and thats a bonus : > .The stats on the shield are not a very big boost , because you lose stats that you would have on your 2h. Depending on which shield you have available , you might get a 'small' boost on your stats as well , but thats about it.

    However,the dps you lose when you go 1h+shield is bigger than you think.I'd say it's a big sacrifice of DPS,not a small one.

    Bottom line is , that if you haven't yet made a 1h weapon , then i'd suggest you don't. You need to spend relics/ixp/scrolls/time for something that can hardly benefit you.On the other hand , experimenting is very good for all of us. If you felt you want to do it, then you MUST do it . Go ahead and enjoy it. It's all up to you : )

  9. #9
    I have been thinking much the same. My Captain is lvl 59 and does well with a two handed sword when doing solo but has trouble surviving some of the 6/12 person instences. The other day i did the forges and died a lot of times so i was thinking maybe stay with my 2H sword for solo and the easier instences and maybe go with sword and board for the tougher ones.

    Becides i was given a 2nd age LI the other day and it would be a shame not to use it.
    Last edited by Atrixzia; Jul 16 2012 at 10:05 AM. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Only traitline where S&B doesn't make a lot of sense is LtC.
    Not that I would use a one hand for this, but here's some food for thought.

    Obtaining the maximum number of DB&PA/min in LtC while using a 2hander means WoC takes a back seat to trying to generate Rally Cries. The significantly increased attack speed from using a 1-hander while in LtC would allow you to slip in more WoC into the mix. At the expense of an ungodly amount of damage and power.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    Not that I would use a one hand for this, but here's some food for thought.

    Obtaining the maximum number of DB&PA/min in LtC while using a 2hander means WoC takes a back seat to trying to generate Rally Cries. The significantly increased attack speed from using a 1-hander while in LtC would allow you to slip in more WoC into the mix. At the expense of an ungodly amount of damage and power.
    Wouldn't it make more sense to go HoH instead?
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  12. #12
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    As long as you can´t prove (with CombatAnalysis) that S&B is more efficient in any of our three traitlines... I just go on laughing about so called "captains" with this small baby shields.
    Second Marshall Maywyn Eorthas of Rohan - Captain - Rank 13

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    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    As long as you can´t prove (with CombatAnalysis) that S&B is more efficient in any of our three traitlines... I just go on laughing about so called "captains" with this small baby shields.
    Tanking: While survivability is fairly easy to calculate.... we haz access to our threat system?

    Healing: Define what would be a fair way to compare healing outputs.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    As long as you can´t prove (with CombatAnalysis) that S&B is more efficient in any of our three traitlines... I just go on laughing about so called "captains" with this small baby shields.
    lol "baby shields"... ty for laugh

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    I have wondered about this myself, as I had used a shield for tough small fellowship fights at lower levels, when I had to act as a tank to soak up damage. Nowadays I go down LoM with trait for T2 solo skirms, but have stuck with a 2H. The reason being that I have maxed out the +armour legacy for 'Defensive Strike', so it's like I already have a mock heavy shield AND I can block with a 2H Halberd that can generate threat. I see no reason to use a shield for LoM in this regard, at all. Since moving on from a Halberd, I also decided to experiment further with traitlines, and have found a sweet spot with a variation of 4r/3b for solo and occasional group play. I use a 2H sword now, and have found no reason to deviate from this.

    At the back of my mind though, I wonder if stats on a shield would make a difference. Plus, the defensive stat on it would put my armour rating through the roof, so I probably would have to experiment with it to get a better feel for the differences. Perhaps a 4y/3b hybrid with shield would be a nice tankish build with sufficient healing ability. My only worry while deviating from my current 4r/3b 2H build would be power management. An interesting class makes for interesting experiments. All that said though, it's down to player preference, so if you find more fun and efficiency using a shield, you have the right to.
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  16. #16
    In my opinion (which shouldn't weight too much, as I'm at 43 with my cappy), we should remember the role we have in a group as a class: assistant. That means we should assist in DPS too.
    By using a paper kite and small sword we're greatly reducing our DPS therefore we're not helping the group.
    My honest beginner-cappy opinion.

  17. #17
    Just use it whenever you want to if you like to run like that. I use sword and shield all the time, don't even own a 2hander.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equaliser View Post
    [...]we should remember the role we have in a group as a class: assistant. That means we should assist in DPS too.
    Thank you!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Tanking: While survivability is fairly easy to calculate.... we haz access to our threat system?

    Healing: Define what would be a fair way to compare healing outputs.
    Tanking: Yeah, it´s about the survivability! So "Taken" in CombatAnalysis. The only thing which is appreciable at this point with a shield is "Crit Defence"! And I´m pretty sure these ~600 Crit Defence won´t make a noteworthy difference.

    Healing: Fair... well... uhm... This is difficult because it depends on your basic Crit stat or your mastery. But regardless of these important stats I would like to ask you: What is the advantage of Shield and Sword in cases of Healing? And when there is at least one benefit, it has to show itself in a great amount of more healing in CombatAnalysis. Otherwise there is no reason for S&B. Because:

    DPS: The Captain with S&B who beat me in DPS hasn´t been born yet! And that is easy to prove with CombatAnalysis!
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  19. #19
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    Apologies for bad formatting, I'm responding fom my droid phone and not a desktop.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    Tanking: Yeah, it´s about the survivability! So "Taken" in CombatAnalysis. The only thing which is appreciable at this point with a shield is "Crit Defence"! And I´m pretty sure these ~600 Crit Defence won´t make a noteworthy difference.
    You ignore that the stats on the shield are better than the stats built inti the two handers - which are tandom and can be downright useless for tanking. Your also ignoring the armor value of shields, which translates to more mitigations.


    Healing: Fair... well... uhm... This is difficult because it depends on your basic Crit stat or your mastery. But regardless of these important stats I would like to ask you: What is the advantage of Shield and Sword in cases of Healing? And when there is at least one benefit, it has to show itself in a great amount of more healing in CombatAnalysis. Otherwise there is no reason for S&B. Because:
    If I'm HoH traited, I'm completely focused on healing at the expense of everything else.

    Again, my shield will give me better stats than those built into any two hander, the faster attack speed of a one hander menas I can fire off more skills per minute, and the shield helps with survivability - helpful since captwin self healing is pretty bad compared to the primary classes.

    DPS: The Captain with S&B who beat me in DPS hasn´t been born yet! And that is easy to prove with CombatAnalysis!
    If I'm going LoM, I'm going to be tanking stuff, so bar DPS is par for the course.

    If I'm going HoH, I'm probably main healint stuff - so do you want your healer focused on DPS over heals?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    If I'm going LoM, I'm going to be tanking stuff, so bar DPS is par for the course.

    If I'm going HoH, I'm probably main healint stuff - so do you want your healer focused on DPS over heals?
    But Maley! We are supposed to dps that's why we were given 2 handers! You could do like 100 more dps with a 2h in either of those trait lines. That could be a huge difference in a fight, If you assume group dps without you is around 5000, an extra 100 dps is an improvement of 2% !!!
    Last edited by DuneBug; Jul 17 2012 at 11:26 AM.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuneBug View Post
    But Maley! We are supposed to dps that's why we were given 2 handers! You could do like 100 more dps with a 2h in either of those trait lines. That could be a huge difference in a fight, If you assume group dps without you is around 5000, an extra 100 dps is an improvement of 2% !!!
    Hmm....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    You ignore that the stats on the shield are better than the stats built inti the two handers - which are tandom and can be downright useless for tanking. Your also ignoring the armor value of shields, which translates to more mitigations.
    Well let´s take a look at one of the best shields you could wear at the moment (in my opinion): Aranthan (Orthanc ID1-3)

    712 CritDefence: I talk about this before, nice to have but for what?
    920 Armour: This is a tactical mitigation of 184! &&&?
    57 ICPR: not worth mentioning (I got this on my first age 2h too )
    365 Morale: Well, I got nearly the same with 3 cristals on my firstage 2h sword
    528 Block: Again... might not be useless if you´re tanking but... in raids: totally worthless
    67 might + 352 tact. mastery: well about 30 might more than on my 2h firstage with 3 crystals... thats about 650 mastery + for you

    -> defence stats which could be a nice to have while maintanking in these easy 3 and 6-man instances we have
    -> 650 mastery for healing... this is about 1% at the top

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    [...] the faster attack speed of a one hander menas I can fire off more skills per minute, and the shield helps with survivability - helpful since captwin self healing is pretty bad compared to the primary classes.
    faster attack speed: more skill per minute sounds good... but I think it is not! more skills (remember you make laughable damage with your toothpick) = higher power cost per minute. In my built not acceptable. also you will click the same number of RC´s per minute like I do (if you have the moors set with 6 sec CD). And this is (because of this set) the most used healing skill! WoC is not used this often anymore.


    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    If I'm going LoM, I'm going to be tanking stuff, so bar DPS is par for the course.
    It´s not that easy I think! Survivability is not that better with a shield (crit def / 184 mitigation / with might ~ 800 block). Also I generate more threat over damage than you! Also I generate additional threat with every hit when I use a halberd. -> More threat / lower "survivability" (cmon :/ ... every minstrel and RK can heal you as a tank without any mitigation or block rating...^^)[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    If I'm HoH traited, I'm completely focused on healing at the expense of everything else.[...] If I'm going HoH, I'm probably main healint stuff - so do you want your healer focused on DPS over heals?
    And that is a big mistake in my opinion! You´re not a healer! You´re a supporter for both, damage and healing! If you want to play a main healer create a minstrel! I could mainheal every 3 and 6-man instance without this HoH capstone and of course (!!) without a shield. Content for me: Ettenmoors and Orthanc T2 HM! Block Rating for the bosses at Orthanc T2 Hm? öööhm nope A huuuge amout of damage loss? öööhm yep! I see myself as a healing / buffing champion!

    Saruman T2 HM I´m at 1400 DPS... I don´t think you can do 1300 with S&B... but of course I will test this


    apologize my english vocabulary and grammar :P
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  23. #23
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    Overlord, I tend to agree with you.

    I have tested one-hand vs 2-hand damage before in the past - and the difference was so significant I remember frantically searching my bags to find my 2-hander again lol

    But to be fair, I haven't tested it lately and a lot of things have changed since then - so it may not be as great as it was before. One of these days when I feel like it I'm going to invest in a proper 1-hander and do another test to see. Cause Dunebug really stands behind his sword and board, so much to the point it makes me interested to try it again.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    And that is a big mistake in my opinion! You´re not a healer! You´re a supporter for both, damage and healing! If you want to play a main healer create a minstrel! I could mainheal every 3 and 6-man instance without this HoH capstone and of course (!!) without a shield. Content for me: Ettenmoors and Orthanc T2 HM! Block Rating for the bosses at Orthanc T2 Hm? öööhm nope A huuuge amout of damage loss? öööhm yep! I see myself as a healing / buffing champion!
    But here's the rub...

    If I'm in ToO, I'm going to be 4 red/3 blue (more than likely), or LtC if it's T1 (cause T1 = joke), NOT HoH.

    If I am running HoH, it's cause I'm main healing stuff.

    I also change traits to match what I'm doing, so there have been weeks where I've gone through all three trait lines.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordGate View Post
    And that is a big mistake in my opinion! You´re not a healer! You´re a supporter for both, damage and healing! If you want to play a main healer create a minstrel! I could mainheal every 3 and 6-man instance without this HoH capstone and of course (!!) without a shield. Content for me: Ettenmoors and Orthanc T2 HM! Block Rating for the bosses at Orthanc T2 Hm? öööhm nope A huuuge amout of damage loss? öööhm yep! I see myself as a healing / buffing champion!

    P
    Very well said.

 

 
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