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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBaggy View Post
    5B + Capstone = +40% WoC healing, +45% Inspire healing, +20% Rallying Cry averages out to about 35% increased healing. Rallying Cry is not used as frequently as WoC or Inspire, so I conservatively estimate that an HoH Captain's outgoing healing increase without Valiant Strike is a minimum of 45%.
    But that's not the way the percents work. That +40% WoC healing isn't a base * 40%, it's a (100% + <bonuses>) * base, so it's actually not as big as you think it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBaggy View Post
    An LtC Captain should not expect to even approach the heals put out by an HoH Captain. If he could, it would be a serious enough problem in the class's design to warrant the firing of the class designer, or at least a severe reduction to his salary.
    Wait until you see some of the healing parses that have been floating around.

    That's one of the reasons why LoM superceeded HoH as the premier pre-RoI raiding spec. It's also why LtC is anywhere near comparable to HoH as far as healing goes.

    The problem originates from a captain's healing emblem, that can be used with any line, and Vocal skills getting near max improvement with a shallow traiting in HoH.

    These are the reasons why I have been bashing HoH for a while now: I want to see it's healing buffed because I feel very strongly that it's needed.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    Yeah lol , like 1% that is . How do you get that many death events without MoW traited ??? And if you get that many , in raid-trash or something ( which barely happens even there ) why don't you use preserverance so that all your death events become war/rallying cries ?????

    Well , if everyone is full ( and power is full ) , then fine , do it . It's exactly what i do as well , but thats like 1% or less . Even bringing this up is really really weird and confusing.

    And what's that all about that 'any' cappy can use SL legacy on their emblem or dagor 3-set , either they are being master of war or not??????????
    Why ???? LOL , most weird/pointless thing i've heard so far .
    It's WAY MORE than 1%. See this is what I'm talking about, this kind of thinking where people think LtC Captains are the only Captains who can get defeat responses. I get a LOT of crits on my devasting blow Bot - not to mention tons of boss fights on this game have adds that die frequently - it's not just trash.

    And War cry last like a minute... and I typically have defeat responses coming in a lot more often than every minute... and not just on "trash" either. This is a silly argument. And I don't need "preserverance" or w/e. Why waste a lot of rally cries on a group that is already topped off on HP just because you have some weird thing against Shadow's Lament unless it puts you into a battle-readied stance?

    And there was nothing weird/pointless about me pointing out to you that any Captain can use SL legacy or Dagor set. I was pointing that out to let you know those are seperate factors not dependent on having red traits equipped.

    My argument was never that certain Captains couldn't do double the damage of other captains. My argument was that if a Captain is doing twice the damage as other Captains, there are a LOT of other factors involved, and it's not just the Red Traits that are responsible. It's other things, such as offensive gear and legacies or just plain skill that are making that possible. And people need to recognize that instead of exagerating the effects of these Red Traits and trying to make them out to be way more awesome than they actually are.

    So while they are nice traits with significant benefits - they aren't 100% nice and don't = giving the Captain his own personal 100% telling mark to use on all his attacks.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Jul 16 2012 at 03:58 PM.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremi View Post
    it's way more than 1%. See this is what i'm talking about, this kind of thinking where people think ltc captains are the only captains who can get defeat responses. I get a lot of crits on my devasting blow bot - not to mention tons of boss fights on this game have adds that die frequently - it's not just trash.

    And war cry last like a minute... And i typically have defeat responses coming in a lot more often than every minute... And not just on "trash" either. This is a silly argument. And i don't need "preserverance" or w/e. Why waste a lot of rally cries on a group that is already topped off on hp just because you have some weird thing against shadow's lament unless it puts you into a battle-readied stance?

    And there was nothing weird/pointless about me pointing out to you that any captain can use sl legacy or dagor set. I was pointing that out to let you know those are seperate factors not dependent on having red traits equipped.

    My argument was never that certain captains couldn't do double the damage of other captains. My argument was that if a captain is doing twice the damage as other captains, there are a lot of other factors involved, and it's not just the red traits that are responsible. It's other things, such as offensive gear and legacies or just plain skill that are making that possible. And people need to recognize that instead of exagerating the effects of these red traits and trying to make them out to be way more awesome than they actually are.

    So while they are nice traits with significant benefits - they aren't 100% nice and don't = giving the captain his own personal 100% telling mark to use on all his attacks.
    show me the numbers!
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    show me the numbers!
    Show you what numbers?

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    It's WAY MORE than 1%. See this is what I'm talking about, this kind of thinking where people think LtC Captains are the only Captains who can get defeat responses. I get a LOT of crits on my devasting blow Bot - not to mention tons of boss fights on this game have adds that die frequently - it's not just trash.
    No , you get max 1 death event every 1.5 minutes from your DB , with the best critical rating possible ( which dunno if you have ) without MoW, and THAT with 4 reds That has already been calculated , read. With HoH , you get EVEN less. It can also be translated as 2 (maybe 3 if lucky) death events in a 5-min fight , and NO , it's NOT a lot.
    It's common sense that MoW get MORE DE responses and not that they are the only one who get them. I don't know where this came up from,it's yours.There is no such fight in ToO that puts your RC's/WC on cooldown with a much bigger chance than the one i mentioned.I rarely remember having death events to waste without MoW gearing.
    And i've already said i am not a supporter of this build btw , with the exclusion of 1 boss due to fail mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    And War cry last like a minute... and I typically have defeat responses coming in a lot more often than every minute... and not just on "trash" either. This is a silly argument. And I don't need "preserverance" or w/e. Why waste a lot of rally cries on a group that is already topped off on HP just because you have some weird thing against Shadow's Lament unless it puts you into a battle-readied stance?
    WC lasts 1 minute , though it has a lower cd so you might as well renew it instead of letting it run off. Brains.
    If you don't need preserverance , then you don't get the death events you claim.Overheal is not only about morale , it's about power as well. We are the only class that can heal power to the group without expense.I have no grudge for shadow's lament , it's a simple fact that it is the pre-last death event choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    And there was nothing weird/pointless about me pointing out to you that any Captain can use SL legacy or Dagor set. I was pointing that out to let you know those are seperate factors not dependent on having red traits equipped.
    You don't even have any idea what you are talking about. You try to claim that all trait-builds can benefit from a set (in this case , the dagor dps-set) when in reality , it's totally pointless cause it supports a NON-SPAMMABLE , RARELY worth using and NERFED skill .l2p

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    My argument was never that certain Captains couldn't do double the damage of other captains. My argument was that if a Captain is doing twice the damage as other Captains, there are a LOT of other factors involved, and it's not just the Red Traits that are responsible. It's other things, such as offensive gear and legacies or just plain skill that are making that possible. And people need to recognize that instead of exagerating the effects of these Red Traits and trying to make them out to be way more awesome than they actually are.
    The point is not the red traits , those alone don't boost the dps a lot . It's the MASTER OF WAR capstone and the AVAILABLE gear you can get to BOOST it that makes the difference . READ .

    Jesus christ

  6. #156
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    Multi quote ; ; Ok let me try this:

    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    No , you get max 1 death event every 1.5 minutes from your DB , with the best critical rating possible ( which dunno if you have ) without MoW, and THAT with 4 reds That has already been calculated , read. With HoH , you get EVEN less. It can also be translated as 2 (maybe 3 if lucky) death events in a 5-min fight , and NO , it's NOT a lot.
    It's common sense that MoW get MORE DE responses and not that they are the only one who get them. I don't know where this came up from,it's yours.There is no such fight in ToO that puts your RC's/WC on cooldown with a much bigger chance than the one i mentioned.I rarely remember having death events to waste without MoW gearing.
    And i've already said i am not a supporter of this build btw , with the exclusion of 1 boss due to fail mechanics.
    OK critical hits are random Bot. Even if you don't have max critical rating it is still very possible to nail two crits with your Devasting blow back to back. Secondly, something dies... you use war cry - then nail a crit with devasting blow. Everyone is topped off on HP. So why not use Shadow's lament in that situation?

    And yes, it is a LOT. I have defeat responses coming in faster than a minute a whole &&&&ing lot. In fact it's not uncommon for me to run out of things to use period from defeat responses.


    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    WC lasts 1 minute , though it has a lower cd so you might as well renew it instead of letting it run off. Brains.
    If you don't need preserverance , then you don't get the death events you claim.Overheal is not only about morale , it's about power as well. We are the only class that can heal power to the group without expense.I have no grudge for shadow's lament , it's a simple fact that it is the pre-last death event choice.
    Again: Let me repeat this example.
    It has a 45 second cool down Bot. It's not always possible to renew it. So if you have a defeat response come up BEFORE the 45 seconds is over, everyone is fine on HP AND Power - why not use Shadow's Lament? That is what I am saying - and this happens with me FREQUENTLY. This is not near so rare of an occasion as you are making out.


    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    You don't even have any idea what you are talking about. You try to claim that all trait-builds can benefit from a set (in this case , the dagor dps-set) when in reality , it's totally pointless cause it supports a NON-SPAMMABLE , RARELY worth using and NERFED skill .l2p
    I know exactly what I was saying, you just don't understand what I am saying lol I was never trying to say it was smart or beneficial for other types of Captains to use these sets or legacies. I was simply pointing out to you they are NOT Red Traits, and you can't counter my argument that Red Traits do not double a Captains damage by bringing gear and legacies into the equation. That actually PROVES my point, it doens't counter it. That's why I said that.

    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post

    The point is not the red traits , those alone don't boost the dps a lot . It's the MASTER OF WAR capstone and the AVAILABLE gear you can get to BOOST it that makes the difference . READ .

    Jesus christ
    I DID read lol

    I even said I agreed with you on most of what you were saying. But slightly disagreed with you in one respect. The Master of War trait - if taken alone or with other Red traits - will NOT double your damage by itself. Other things, like good gear, legacies, skill ect... will have to be included in the comparison. No Red Trait or combination of Red Traits alone are going to increase the Captain damage by 100%. That's what I was saying. But like I said, I think we mostly agree on this point - especially if you recognize that gear has to be a factor as well.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Jul 16 2012 at 04:46 PM.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Show you what numbers?
    Time to clarify!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    It's WAY MORE than 1%. See this is what I'm talking about, this kind of thinking where people think LtC Captains are the only Captains who can get defeat responses. I get a LOT of crits on my devasting blow Bot - not to mention tons of boss fights on this game have adds that die frequently - it's not just trash.
    So how often are you critting? How many Defeat Response per minute are seeing in boss fights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    And War cry last like a minute... and I typically have defeat responses coming in a lot more often than every minute... and not just on "trash" either. This is a silly argument. And I don't need "preserverance" or w/e. Why waste a lot of rally cries on a group that is already topped off on HP just because you have some weird thing against Shadow's Lament unless it puts you into a battle-readied stance?
    Soo.... how many defeat response are you seeing per minute?

    Also, Shadow's Lament is raw damage without MoW, because it needs MoW to initiate the skill chain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    My argument was never that certain Captains couldn't do double the damage of other captains. My argument was that if a Captain is doing twice the damage as other Captains, there are a LOT of other factors involved, and it's not just the Red Traits that are responsible. It's other things, such as offensive gear and legacies or just plain skill that are making that possible. And people need to recognize that instead of exagerating the effects of these Red Traits and trying to make them out to be way more awesome than they actually are.

    So while they are nice traits with significant benefits - they aren't 100% nice and don't = giving the Captain his own personal 100% telling mark to use on all his attacks.
    So.... how much DPS are you seeing with your traiting? How does it compare to what you see when you trait LtC?

    Where are your parses showing that it's lower?

    Where's your data?

    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    The point is not the red traits , those alone don't boost the dps a lot . It's the MASTER OF WAR capstone and the AVAILABLE gear you can get to BOOST it that makes the difference . READ .
    Welcome to my Hell.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Time to clarify!



    So how often are you critting? How many Defeat Response per minute are seeing in boss fights?



    Soo.... how many defeat response are you seeing per minute?

    Also, Shadow's Lament is raw damage without MoW, because it needs MoW to initiate the skill chain.



    So.... how much DPS are you seeing with your traiting? How does it compare to what you see when you trait LtC?

    Where are your parses showing that it's lower?

    Where's your data?



    Welcome to my Hell.

    Almagnus, it's amusing to me for someone who acts like debating me with such a "hell" for you, yet you constantly leap at the chance to do it

  9. #159
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    This pretty much sums it up:

    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    This pretty much sums it up:

    Lol I was about to say something but I stopped myself.

    I'll just say I do feel that pic accurately reflects you - so on this, we are in agreement

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Lol I was about to say something but I stopped myself.

    I'll just say I do feel that pic accurately reflects you - so on this, we are in agreement
    See.... here's the difference...

    I've actually provided some models, math, and what not to backup what I'm saying.

    All you've done is produce badly written sophistry. And even confused a few people to boot XD
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    See.... here's the difference...

    I've actually provided some models, math, and what not to backup what I'm saying.

    All you've done is produce badly written sophistry. And even confused a few people to boot XD
    Well it hurts my feelings that you think my posts are badly written ^^

    And you have produced no "models" or "math" proving that Red Traits - by themselves - are capable of doubling your damage as a Captain. Sorry. I know this because you can't prove things that are incorrect.

    Nor have you produced any "models" or "math" that proves I don't get defeat-responses more often than once per minute either... which is silly anyways because if that were really the case why would I even bother to use my Rally Cry CD legacy at all.

    And if I "confuse" you so much Almgnus, or find my posts so "badly written" then simply put me on ignore and stop starting arguments with me. Otherwise you will continue to look like the boy jumping into the fire while complaining about being burned.

    Also - to put it more bluntly to you, I'm not here to "prove" anything to you. You can think I'm a liar all you want, I really don't give a &&&& ^^ And I'm under no obligation to take up my time creating models and math or go parse things to make you happy. I really don't care rather you believe me or not.

    Besides... even when I give you your precious "numbers" it doesn't make any difference. Lke your claim the other day when you was saying everyone on the forum had at least 10% more outgoing healing than I did because you didn't approve of the amount of might I had. Well...I foolishly took the time (for you) to log into the game, buff up my character and throw down my banner - and my outgoing healing was 45.7% (and that was without food). And I told you that - thus proving your claims about me were wrong with a "NUMBER". And it made no difference what-so-ever, and you still linked your spreadsheets and math or w/e pretending it proved me wrong. So why on earth would I bother doing this again?

    Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Jul 16 2012 at 06:06 PM.

  13. #163
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    Suprising results with going LtC...

    I went 4 red without capstone and was doing slightly more then 1000 DPS, I even did a two minute parse over 1100 this way. I did this with 4 red and 2 blue from ToO sets. Now the suprising part... I was doing between 1200 and 1300 DPS with LtC capstone traited with 3 piece perserverance and 3 Dagor. However a few runs when I didn't get crits I was at 1100 DPS. The other issue is I was burning much more power with LtC, which means for a fight longer you would not be able to effectively keep on using the DPS rotation for maximum DPS. This was suprising for me to say the least. Maybe I have a much better DPS rotation with 4 Red and not traiting LtC capstone because that is how I always trait...

    All my parses were 2 minutes long and involved power pots so I wouldn't run out of power. On average I would say LtC capstone would be 25% extra damage max.

    Edit - Even more to my suprise, I went LtC capstone with 4 red and 2 blue of ToO and was outdps'ing my perserverance set... Was consistently right around 1300 for 2 minutes parses.
    Last edited by discodanman45; Jul 16 2012 at 05:50 PM.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by discodanman45 View Post
    Suprising results with going LtC...

    I went 4 red without capstone and was doing slightly more then 1000 DPS, I even did a two minute parse over 1100 this way. I did this with 4 red and 2 blue from ToO sets. Now the suprising part... I was doing between 1200 and 1300 DPS with LtC capstone traited with 3 piece perserverance and 3 Dagor. However a few runs when I didn't get crits I was at 1100 DPS. The other issue is I was burning much more power with LtC, which means for a fight longer you would not be able to effectively keep on using the DPS rotation for maximum DPS. This was suprising for me to say the least. Maybe I have a much better DPS rotation with 4 Red and not traiting LtC capstone because that is how I always trait...

    All my parses were 2 minutes long and involved power pots so I wouldn't run out of power. On average I would say LtC capstone would be 25% extra damage max.
    Did you try comparing with 5b/2y ? ^^ Cause that was the 'double' dps part,at least for me.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by discodanman45 View Post
    Suprising results with going LtC...

    I went 4 red without capstone and was doing slightly more then 1000 DPS, I even did a two minute parse over 1100 this way. I did this with 4 red and 2 blue from ToO sets. Now the suprising part... I was doing between 1200 and 1300 DPS with LtC capstone traited with 3 piece perserverance and 3 Dagor. However a few runs when I didn't get crits I was at 1100 DPS. The other issue is I was burning much more power with LtC, which means for a fight longer you would not be able to effectively keep on using the DPS rotation for maximum DPS. This was suprising for me to say the least. Maybe I have a much better DPS rotation with 4 Red and not traiting LtC capstone because that is how I always trait...

    All my parses were 2 minutes long and involved power pots so I wouldn't run out of power. On average I would say LtC capstone would be 25% extra damage max.

    Edit - Even more to my suprise, I went LtC capstone with 4 red and 2 blue of ToO and was outdps'ing my perserverance set... Was consistently right around 1300 for 2 minutes parses.
    Was that with or without war banner?

    I could totally see a captain rocking war banner in a DPS group for a raid, assuming it was mostly non-tactical DPSers.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

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    5 B and 2 Y was over 900 DPS on three 2 minutes parses.

    Edit - For Maley, it was War Banner for every parse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    Ofc it is important . For BOTH marks.Especially when those cooldowned-mark gaps are so many.
    Revealing mark is lotro's only group lifesteal aka passive healing (well,maybe lm's light too ? ), the madder you go on a mob , the better .

    Actually...................... . I've heard so many things on this thread that this seems of lesser importance.

    Maybe in a few days , someone will pop and say that applying mark is a waste of power.
    Hmm... Nah , that wouldn't surprise me either. I believe i am perfectly 'trained' at the moment.
    Most focus on the lost damage from telling when switching. Yes, I like revealing, no not claiming it is useless. I just don't know that a small delay in switching revealing will end up being a big deal. Apparently you do know, based on some detailed analysis. The telling switch I can see being claimed as a life-or-death difference in a tight DPS race. Revealing, well, it depends. Helps your tank not so much (as their DPS is likely not awesome). Overheals some folks, but I guess if you are at the extreme margin the 10 second revealing mark healing loss may be the difference.

    But mock away, don't answer civilly or with an open mind to the thought that maybe there is the idea that there well could be some difference between the captain doing telling vs revealing. Mockery and lack of respect for others ideas (or the idea that there is more than one way to succeed) is the general tenor of this thread regardless...

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    So spending time doing parses a 4 red captain should be able to do about 15% more damage then a HoH cappy, which is kind of expected. Going LtC capstone will give you a 20-25% increase from 4 red.

    By the way I was going war cry/blade brother/scrolls/5% extra damage. The only thing I was not using was telling mark, that is a pain to keep up on training dummies. I was also running over 2600 might doing these parses (If I ate food I would be at 2700 might), except for perserverance set which drops me down quite a bit in might.

    The big thing for DPS is might. You can be a HoH cappy with 2600 might and still do good cappy DPS. Traits help, but even a HoH cappy with top end gear will out DPS a mediocre LtC captain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    Most focus on the lost damage from telling when switching. Yes, I like revealing, no not claiming it is useless. I just don't know that a small delay in switching revealing will end up being a big deal. Apparently you do know, based on some detailed analysis. The telling switch I can see being claimed as a life-or-death difference in a tight DPS race. Revealing, well, it depends. Helps your tank not so much (as their DPS is likely not awesome). Overheals some folks, but I guess if you are at the extreme margin the 10 second revealing mark healing loss may be the difference.

    But mock away, don't answer civilly or with an open mind to the thought that maybe there is the idea that there well could be some difference between the captain doing telling vs revealing. Mockery and lack of respect for others ideas (or the idea that there is more than one way to succeed) is the general tenor of this thread regardless...
    No mockery here.

    I can't imagine doing Saruman T2C without the mark cooldown trait on both Captains. In the last phase, we're trying to kill two Sarumans in the first 30 seconds, and that's probably not happening without Telling Mark on both Sarumans the whole time. Also, even with three healers, there's so much damage going around that even a 10s loss of the DPS healing themselves through their own damage would be fairly significant (take a conservative estimate of the DPS doing 10k DPS combined, and no Revealing Mark for 10s is 15,000 morale that isn't being healed).

    I'm not saying that the fight is impossible without the mark cooldowns - I'm just saying that I think it becomes unnecessarily harder without them.

    Quote Originally Posted by discodanman45 View Post
    So spending time doing parses a 4 red captain should be able to do about 15% more damage then a HoH cappy, which is kind of expected. Going LtC capstone will give you a 20-25% increase from 4 red.

    By the way I was going war cry/blade brother/scrolls/5% extra damage. The only thing I was not using was telling mark, that is a pain to keep up on training dummies. I was also running over 2600 might doing these parses (If I ate food I would be at 2700 might), except for perserverance set which drops me down quite a bit in might.

    The big thing for DPS is might. You can be a HoH cappy with 2600 might and still do good cappy DPS. Traits help, but even a HoH cappy with top end gear will out DPS a mediocre LtC captain.
    I appreciate you doing some testing. I don't know what you normally run in raids, but it'd be interesting to see the difference in your healing output if you were to trait 5b/2x one week and 5r/2b the next.

    Also, with apologies in advance, your last statement regarding a well-geared HoH cappy out-DPSing a mediocre LtC cappy bugs me. While possibly true, it's meaningless in the context of trying to get accurate comparisons. It's like the people who kept defending stat tomes by saying that a person with better gear and skill and no stat tomes will still outperform someone with worse gear and skill plus stat tomes, or those Guardians/Wardens who claim they can fill DPS spots because they can out-DPS terrible Hunters and Champions - comparisons need to be made between similar things. (Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    But mock away, don't answer civilly or with an open mind to the thought that maybe there is the idea that there well could be some difference between the captain doing telling vs revealing. Mockery and lack of respect for others ideas (or the idea that there is more than one way to succeed) is the general tenor of this thread regardless...
    Sorry if i insulted you or something , wasn't my purpose. Quite the opposite , my point was that i've seen so many things here opposite to the way i think , that your seemed the least of them.( Even if i do believe you are wrong , but thats me )

    Anyway , as far as dps is concerned . I just finished some calculations .

    I did 3 tries with 5b/2y no capstone and 4 tries with 5r/2b with MoW.My target was the middle dummy in the moors.
    For some reason i noticed missing quite a lot ; / Also i got some dot expiring from resetting,but on both builds.
    I didn't use telling mark.
    I blade-brothered a friend hunter on BOTH tries.
    I used the SAME WEAPON (FA) on both builds! I switched emblem though.

    HEAL BUILD : Heal emblem , HOPE banner , 5b/2y traits , 1790 might , 17,5% crit ,82% physical mastery , 3 prese - 3 tognir <---Thats how i roll nowadays , though i change it quite often.

    Results :
    1st try:395 dps
    2nd try:410 dps ( tried harder )
    3rd try:381 dps ( tried even harder but failed )

    DPS BUILD : DPS emblem ( different relics , SL legacy etc ) , WAR banner ,2088 might ( didnt count banner bonus while placed for this ) , 27% crit , 3 prese - 3 command <----- I DONT HAVE DAGOR = No extra reduce on SL cd. Also used totally different jewels.

    Results:

    1st try:650 dps
    2nd try:760 dps
    3rd try : 590 dps ( <- no idea how this happened )
    4rth try : 740 dps (<- GOT PISSED OFF by try 3 and tried again )

    Note that I DONT have a DPS weapon !!!!!!!! I use the same for both TRAIT-BUILDS! However it's relics / legacies are mostly healing , although it does have cutting attack bleed.Also misses were a LOT in my tries , but i cba to retry somewhere else , thats the general picture.
    And a reminder , dps tries are WITHOUT dagor set 3.
    Other than that , i tried to use items that i would actually use in each build.
    Last edited by BotLike; Jul 16 2012 at 06:59 PM.

  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    Also, with apologies in advance, your last statement regarding a well-geared HoH cappy out-DPSing a mediocre LtC cappy bugs me. While possibly true, it's meaningless in the context of trying to get accurate comparisons. It's like the people who kept defending stat tomes by saying that a person with better gear and skill and no stat tomes will still outperform someone with worse gear and skill plus stat tomes, or those Guardians/Wardens who claim they can fill DPS spots because they can out-DPS terrible Hunters and Champions - comparisons need to be made between similar things. (Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.)
    I could see how that would bug anyone That is why to see comparisons, one person needs to do all the testing and see how traits change their DPS. The biggest shock I saw is the 3 piece Perserverance set is actually worse DPS for me. The extra might and finesse rating more then makes up for the 20% reduction in Shadow's Lament cooldown. I got the three piece set for running LtC, and I expected great things from what I read. In reality, they were just fantasies...

    To be completely honest, I don't think there is much of a difference on how captains trait these days. Some things should be expected like traiting 2 yellow for Saruman to keep marks up all the time, however I think it is what makes the captain feel better when they are raiding... I think it is the placebo effect at work here. If you think that you heal better in HoH, you will. Not because you have a greater ability to heal, but you will work harder and feel more confident in your abilities in HoH. This is why I am kinda frustrated at capstones. The only one that makes a substantial difference is LoM for tanking. I would need to have proof of better performance using a capstone over fellowship brother/oathies/and idome.

    Edit - I usually raid 4 red/2 yellow/1 blue. Sometimes I go 2 blue if extended last stand or mark switching is not needed. That is how most of our captains decided to trait since RoI. I traited HoH for Saruman T2 CM and did it with four red a few weeks later. To be honest, not much difference in healing.
    Last edited by discodanman45; Jul 16 2012 at 07:14 PM.

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by discodanman45 View Post
    To be completely honest, I don't think there is much of a difference on how captains trait these days. Some things should be expected like traiting 2 yellow for Saruman to keep marks up all the time, however I think it is what makes the captain feel better when they are raiding... I think it is the placebo effect at work here. If you think that you heal better in HoH, you will. Not because you have a greater ability to heal, but you will work harder and feel more confident in your abilities in HoH. This is why I am kinda frustrated at capstones. The only one that makes a substantial difference is LoM for tanking. I would need to have proof of better performance using a capstone over fellowship brother/oathies/and idome.
    Or put another way, unless the following is true:
    Capstone builds == Primary Roles (DPS, Healing, or Tanking)

    There's no reason to slot a capstone.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 16 2012 at 08:26 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by discodanman45 View Post
    Edit - I usually raid 4 red/2 yellow/1 blue. Sometimes I go 2 blue if extended last stand or mark switching is not needed. That is how most of our captains decided to trait since RoI. I traited HoH for Saruman T2 CM and did it with four red a few weeks later. To be honest, not much difference in healing.
    Yup, exactly. HoH needs some tweaking. I think part of the problem is that it has too many percentage bonuses (which stack additively rather than multiplicatively, as noted elsewhere, so that the end result of them is less than expected) and not enough game-changing traits.

    Renewed Voice for LtC is a game-changer by speeding up the DPS/DE rotation rather than just producing bigger numbers, and so is Turn of the Tide for adding a stun to Routing Cry. The only traits in LoM that aren't game-changers in some way are Intimidation and Tactical Prowess. The only real game-changer trait in HoH is Now For Wrath, and it's rightly considered the one truly unmissable trait for all Captain builds.

    The only two effects that really change the way Captains heal are the HoH capstone that adds a HoT to Valiant Strike (which is really great, but the range on the skill is too small), the 3-set bonus on the Gallant Commander armour, and the 5-set bonus on the Menestaid set.

    If HoH traits did interesting things to change the Captain play style to better suit the healing role (random one to throw out there just as an example: VS produces a defeat event on a crit) rather than just granting weak percentage bonuses, there would be less incentive to go into raids with 5R/2B. As it is, LtC with a healing emblem does more to support the healing role than HoH does, and that's just broken.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
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  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    As it is, LtC with a healing emblem does more to support the healing role than HoH does, and that's just broken.
    Blanket statements like this need modifiers. 3GC + (3 pers or even 3 mene) makes HoH heal for more than any LtC build in places where things die a lot. Trash pulls are obvious situations where that is true. I anticipate that Shadow T2C will also be one such place where that is true (roots & adds); whether those extra heals are needed is another question.
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  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    Blanket statements like this need modifiers. 3GC + (3 pers or even 3 mene) makes HoH heal for more than any LtC build in places where things die a lot. Trash pulls are obvious situations where that is true. I anticipate that Shadow T2C will also be one such place where that is true (roots & adds); whether those extra heals are needed is another question.
    Even seeing Shadow T2, it's pretty much a DPS race, so if there's anywhere in ToO where MoW is actually needed, it'd be there.

    The question though: is MoW worth sacrificing IDoME?

    Edit:
    And one thought relevant to this thread:
    We must be open to new ideas, and especially constructive criticism, because sometimes we are just doing things wrong, and need to stop that.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 17 2012 at 03:43 AM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

 

 
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