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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBaggy View Post
    You're doing something horribly wrong if you aren't healing at least 40% more in HoH than you do in LtC.
    So how much of HoH healing is the VS HoT?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    So to sum it up - there is nothing here that is going to let a Captain do 100% more damage on all of their moves. On the contrary - they are increases along the lines of 5% - 15% and are on SPECIFIC SKILLS ONLY. The largest increase these traits provide is a 50% bonus - and again, that is ONLY on a single skill and not an overall damage increase. So the offensive increases these traits provide are being exagerated here in my opinion. And this is meant generally, and I'm not pointing to any single Captain on this thread.

    So bottom line is Red Traits will give you a significant boost to your dps. But it's really no more significant than the increases the other trait-lines will give you in their respected areas in my opinion. It is not blatantly over-powered when compared to other traitlines. It's just not. And if you're in a group that will benefit from extra healing, the HoH traitline is deffinitely worthwhile. There is just nothing in these Red Traits that would make a Captain's offense so spectacular that they simply must be traited for Raids if a Captain wants to remain effective.
    Not really , thats not how it works. When traited LtC you get totally different attack rotations , that mostly include shadow's lament and DA/PA. The damage you inflict , if geared with 3 dagor/3 prese (<- perfect build ) and an emblem with SL cd is actually double , and i believe even more than double , when compared to non-ltc dps.

    However , since this thread is about raiding , i need to add here , that the damage might get an enormous percentage boost , but it's laughable comparing to other perfectly geared dps-classes............... Final time-benefit of a decent LtC captain's dps on a raid fight is only a few seconds. After all , double s@#t-dps = less s@#t dps.

    I could agree with you if you referred to 4r build , which is exactly the same attack rotations with other builds, only with a 25% increase in battle-ready state.In that case , it's only the red-trait/set bonuses that do the difference and it's defo less than a 50% increase comparing to a non-red cappy.

    Almagnus i suggest you re-enter a saruman fight and re-think on the mark cd set-2.The mark swaps there are just too many , because of the elemental-phase changes and the ammount of clones . If you have a 10-sec cooldown in each swap , then it's a big loss , and that's not on paper.

    As for the shield of the dunedain , it is indeed a worthy legendary. I wear it every day.
    In the moors........................
    For a raid ? No way , we still have HS for that .
    Maybe in the future , who knows.

    Last but not least : There are no perfect trait-builds , it's always give and take : )
    There are only perfect builds ( or at least near-perfect builds ) for certain situations , in this case , raid fights. For anyone who can't understand what i mean , don't worry.
    You will one day oOooOoOoOo

    PS. Welcome BACK furtim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    Almagnus i suggest you re-enter a saruman fight and re-think on the mark cd set-2.The mark swaps there are just too many , because of the elemental-phase changes and the ammount of clones . If you have a 10-sec cooldown in each swap , then it's a big loss , and that's not on paper.
    I've avoided this because it seems overheated. And I've done very little by way of Orthanc T2 raids as my kin now raids too late for me during daylight savings time. But a point on the above.

    We normally assign 1 captain Telling, 1 Revealing. The damage loss you mention above during the cooldown would only apply to the captain doing Telling. Revealing is very nice, but really is a brief gap so bad on it? Both Captains need not be identical -- for example, there is no point in giving both Command sets. So if this is the key distinction being made (need 2 yellows for mark swap), well, I'd suggest that one of the 2 Captains is plenty to have that...

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    We normally assign 1 captain Telling, 1 Revealing. The damage loss you mention above during the cooldown would only apply to the captain doing Telling. Revealing is very nice, but really is a brief gap so bad on it? Both Captains need not be identical -- for example, there is no point in giving both Command sets. So if this is the key distinction being made (need 2 yellows for mark swap), well, I'd suggest that one of the 2 Captains is plenty to have that...
    Ofc it is important . For BOTH marks.Especially when those cooldowned-mark gaps are so many.
    Revealing mark is lotro's only group lifesteal aka passive healing (well,maybe lm's light too ? ), the madder you go on a mob , the better .

    Actually...................... . I've heard so many things on this thread that this seems of lesser importance.

    Maybe in a few days , someone will pop and say that applying mark is a waste of power.
    Hmm... Nah , that wouldn't surprise me either. I believe i am perfectly 'trained' at the moment.

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    Not really , thats not how it works. When traited LtC you get totally different attack rotations , that mostly include shadow's lament and DA/PA. The damage you inflict , if geared with 3 dagor/3 prese (<- perfect build ) and an emblem with SL cd is actually double , and i believe even more than double , when compared to non-ltc dps.

    Nope. In fact you are pretty much making my point for me - because in order to counter my post you had to bring up gear, rotations, emblems, legacies... and everything else. So you are making the same mistake others in this thread are doing - and mixing and matching things that don't belong in the context I am using.

    We are talking about the trait themselves, and there is no combination of red traits that are going to let Captains do twice the damage other captains can do. All Captains can wear the Dagor set. All Captains can use SL legacy on their emblem. There is simply no combination of red traits that are going to let a Captain do twice as much damage as other Captains - and that is what my post was saying

    If you are doing 100% more damage than other Captains - there are a LOT other factors involved besides your "red traits" trust me. And your post helped make my point for me, so thank you

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Jeremi:
    Once again you only see trees when you need to see the forest.

    Almagnus:
    Once again you are lost in the forest and don't see the trees

    If you are doing twice the damage other Captains are doing - it ISN'T just because of your Red Traits. It has a LOT more to do with your gear, legacies, skill... and other factors.

    Just because you put on some Red Traits that isn't going to turn you into some kind of offensive machine twice as good as all other Captains. It's just not - and there is nothing in those Red Trats that are going to make you do twice the damage as other Captains. That's just a fact. There isn't.

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    We are talking about the trait themselves, and there is no combination of red traits that are going to let Captains do twice the damage other captains can do. All Captains can wear the Dagor set. All Captains can use SL legacy on their emblem. There is simply no combination of red traits that are going to let a Captain do twice as much damage as other Captains - and that is what my post was saying
    You need to have first hand experience with that trait line, because words clearly mean nothing to you - and you just demonstrated that you don't/won't take the time to understand exactly what the theorycrafting is saying.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    We are talking about the trait themselves, and there is no combination of red traits that are going to let Captains do twice the damage other captains can do. All Captains can wear the Dagor set. All Captains can use SL legacy on their emblem. There is simply no combination of red traits that are going to let a Captain do twice as much damage as other Captains - and that is what my post was saying
    I've already mentioned the red traits themselves don't result in such a huge increase on dps. It's the master of war capstone that makes the difference.

    Without capstone , SL is pretty much out of the game , apart from having it's damage nerfed. Plus there are less devastating blows/pressing attacks , which leads your back to sure strike/defensive strike chains,like you do without reds.

    Go to a dummy , load combat analysis and you'll understand what i mean.

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaodan View Post
    Yes only specific skills but the skills are the 95% of damage skills you the rest is sure strike and maybe a devensive strike if all skills have cd and this is only the fact if you have time to only dps. In situations where you have to heal too you will only use this specific skills.
    Thao that's just not true. I use every melee skill I have while healing.

    But regardless, my point was that there is nothing in those red traits that are going to let a Captain do twice as much damage as other Captains. There just isn't.

    For example: I easily double the amount of healing other Captains I play with to a lot of times but that isn't solely because I have blue traits on. It has more to do with how I play, the gear I use, the legacies I choose, how lazy the other Capatin is about healing and so on.... The blue traits help of course, but they aren't the only factor. And you don't see me coming onto these forums bragging about how HoH can double or triple to healing of all other Captains. Because I am not that foolish to think that.

    In other words, I could throw on the Dagor set, max out all my dps legacies, stack the hell out of might and crit - put on 5 blue traits and there is no way another Captain would be able to double my damage simply because he has more red traits on that I do. The traits don't make that much difference. They help - but they dont' make you do double the damage of other Captains.

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    I've already mentioned the red traits themselves don't result in such a huge increase on dps. It's the master of war capstone that makes the difference.

    Without capstone , SL is pretty much out of the game , apart from having it's damage nerfed. Plus there are less devastating blows/pressing attacks , which leads your back to sure strike/defensive strike chains,like you do without reds.

    Go to a dummy , load combat analysis and you'll understand what i mean.
    Well then we mostly agree - I think. Because that is what I was saying. But I would slightly disagree with you on one point.

    Even the Master of War trait - by ITSELF (or when combined with other Red Traits) is not going to enable a Captain to do double the damage as other Captains. It let's you do a 50% stronger Shadows Lament without needing a defeat response and slips you into a battle-readied state. So basically it will speed up your rotations and let you do 50% more damage from your Shadow. Which is nice, but it's no where near like a 100% self-inflicted telling mark. That would be grossly OP if it was.

    And I use Shadow's Lament all the time, even as a HoH Captain. So I would disagree with you that unless you are LtC that move is pretty much out of the game.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Jul 16 2012 at 02:44 PM.

  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    You need to have first hand experience with that trait line, because words clearly mean nothing to you - and you just demonstrated that you don't/won't take the time to understand exactly what the theorycrafting is saying.
    I have used these traits before Almagnus, so I have first-hand experience at using them

    And I didn't do double the damage when I equipped them either lol

    I'm actually in a better position to judge this than you are - because I have used these traits outside of an offensive build and offensive legacies, so I can judge better how much an actual difference the traits themselves make - minus the offensive stats and legacies I'm sure you compliment them with.

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Well then we mostly agree - I think. Because that is what I was saying. But I would slightly disagree with you on one point.

    Even the Master of War trait - by ITSELF (or when combined with other Red Traits) is not going to enable a Captain to do double the damage as other Captains. It let's you do a 50% stronger Shadows Lament without needing a defeat response and slips you into a battle-readied state. So basically it will speed up your rotations and let you do 50% more damage from your Shadow. Which is nice, but it's no where near like a 100% self-inflicted telling mark. That would be grossly OP if it was.
    You're ignoring the two extra skill chains again Jeremi.

    Yes, SL is ungated. Yes it is +50%, but it also ungates DB/PA.

    Which means when you use SL, DB/PA => BoE will follow, so that's not just a guaranteed 2 skills per minute, it's a guaranteed 6. It's the extra DB/PA => BoE chains where the additional DPS comes from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    And I use Shadow's Lament all the time, even as a HoH Captain. So I would disagree with you that unless you are LtC that move is pretty much out of the game.
    Not at the frequency of the LtC captains - not if you want to sacrifice your War Cries and Rally Cries for Shadow's Laments. Bad captains sacrifice defeat responses for DPS when they should have buffed or healed, good captains do not.

    Are you a bad captain?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  13. #138
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    Since I can't get into the game, I am going by my memory with parsing training dummies. There is absolutely no way that LtC capstone will allow you to double your DPS. I think the true number is somewhere around 50% more damage. Once we go live again today I will doing some parses of 1 minute with a raid type build without using telling mark (mark wont stay on training dummy anyway) to see what type of numbers I get. I will use blade brother as well, since this is what most raiding captains use these days.
    Last edited by discodanman45; Jul 16 2012 at 02:54 PM.

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    You're ignoring the two extra skill chains again Jeremi.

    Yes, SL is ungated. Yes it is +50%, but it also ungates DB/PA.

    Which means when you use SL, DB/PA => BoE will follow, so that's not just a guaranteed 2 skills per minute, it's a guaranteed 6. It's the extra DB/PA => BoE chains where the additional DPS comes from.



    Not at the frequency of the LtC captains - not if you want to sacrifice your War Cries and Rally Cries for Shadow's Laments. Bad captains sacrifice defeat responses for DPS when they should have buffed or healed, good captains do not.

    Are you a bad captain?
    And again you are make believing I said something I didn't and arguing with it in some attempt to try and describe me as "bad" captain.

    I never said I used Shadow's Lament at the same frequency as LtC Captains. I simply said I do still often use it - so it isn't pretty much out of the game for me.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Jul 16 2012 at 03:01 PM.

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by discodanman45 View Post
    Since I can't get into the game, I am going by my memory with parsing training dummies. There is absolutely no way that LtC capstone will allow you to double your DPS. I think the true number is somewhere around 50% more damage. Once we go live again today I will doing some parses of 1 minute with a raid type build without using telling mark (wont stay on training dummy either) to see what type of numbers I get. I will use blade brother as well, since this is how most raiding captains use these days.
    I agree Discodanman. They are exagerating big time the damage increases these Red Traits give. I know this for a fact because I have used them myself, and I would have deffinitely noticed if they doubled my damage. But they did no such thing.

    It was a significant boost - yes - but no where near 100%.

  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    We are talking about the trait themselves, and there is no combination of red traits that are going to let Captains do twice the damage other captains can do. All Captains can wear the Dagor set. All Captains can use SL legacy on their emblem. There is simply no combination of red traits that are going to let a Captain do twice as much damage as other Captains - and that is what my post was saying

    If you are doing 100% more damage than other Captains - there are a LOT other factors involved besides your "red traits" trust me.
    This is correct. Dagor and Perseverance set bonuses must be involved to make the disparity such that a LtC captain does approaching 2x as much single target damage as a non-red captain. Assuming both are using melee skills about the same amount.

    This is a good thing to understand as we put together pieces of information and come up with raid builds, which must include traits, set bonuses, legacies, everything.

    Taking a LtC spec with the Command set for example does not generate 2x as much personal damage as 5b/2y spec with the Command set. I'm having an ongoing discussion with Retarius on what that means, on whether that personal damage with Command set LtC offsets not having tact prowess + IDOME. (3dagor/3pers LtC personal DPS does offset the loss of group damage from Tact prowess + IDOME. But 1 command set captain is super important and usually I'm that guy).

  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by discodanman45 View Post
    I will use blade brother as well, since this is what most raiding captains use these days.
    Nice one , this is important cause that alone is 15% increase in offense ( half the fight though ).

    EDIT: What's all this about captain using set-3 dagor without MoW ???????
    Why the heck would anyone use the reduction of shadow's lament couldown when that can only be used after a death event ????????

    This makes no sense at all.

    And why would anyone spend a death event on shadow's lament when it doesnt get you battle ready ?????????
    Why not use a rallying/war cry instead ??????????????

    Are you being serious about this ??????????

    And yes , you guys still manage to impress me.
    Last edited by BotLike; Jul 16 2012 at 03:05 PM.

  18. #143
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    If someone does do some parsing, hork up the TP/skirm currency to summon an herbalist to heal you (w/o debuffs, so you can BB it), throw down a banner, and parse. That will give the most accurate picture of what a captain is likely to see in a raid environment.

    It's also something that most of the parses have been missing. It's been either herald/archer + BB, or banner w/o BB - not both together.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    Nice one , this is important cause that alone is 15% increase in offense ( half the fight though ).

    And why would anyone spend a death event on shadow's lament when it doesnt get you battle ready ?????????
    Why not use a rallying/war cry instead ??????????????

    Are you being serious about this ??????????

    And yes , you guys still manage to impress me.
    I don't know why you think this is so silly.

    If War Cry has already been used and Rally Cry is on cool down or everyone is already at max HP and there is no need for a Rally Cry why not pop a Shadow's lament for some extra damage? It can land for over 3k sometimes, even when I use it - so it's a nice little attack.

    Makes a lot more sense than simply not using it at all - rather it makes you battle readied or not.

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    Are you being serious about this ??????????

    And yes , you guys still manage to impress me.
    Asking for this one... but can you elaborate?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    If someone does do some parsing, hork up the TP/skirm currency to summon an herbalist to heal you (w/o debuffs, so you can BB it), throw down a banner, and parse. That will give the most accurate picture of what a captain is likely to see in a raid environment.

    It's also something that most of the parses have been missing. It's been either herald/archer + BB, or banner w/o BB - not both together.
    That is why I have another account, to have someone there to help me with the parses

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by discodanman45 View Post
    That is why I have another account, to have someone there to help me with the parses
    Let me guess, you script the other captain to spam /cheer to help when the results are disappointing? ; )

    Edit:
    And I'm only giving the ribbing because I'm secretly jealous but won't admit it...

    Wait a second.....
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 16 2012 at 03:21 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  23. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    So how much of HoH healing is the VS HoT?

    5B + Capstone = +40% WoC healing, +45% Inspire healing, +20% Rallying Cry averages out to about 35% increased healing. Rallying Cry is not used as frequently as WoC or Inspire, so I conservatively estimate that an HoH Captain's outgoing healing increase without Valiant Strike is a minimum of 45%.

    Valiant Strike's HoH healing bonus analyzed independently:

    1.33 (cooldown reduction from capstone) X (20% (set bonus + capstone base healing increase) + 900% (Capstone HoT bonus)) = 1223% healing increase from traits alone. Factor in the Menestaid 3-piece bonus which most HoH cappies have and you get another 20% base healing increase. Factor in a Gallant Commander/Menestaid 3-piece combo and you get the cooldown eliminated in many situations.

    If you do not use Valiant Strike at all (it's not always necessary) your base healing should increase by around 45%. If you do use Valiant Strike to its full extent in an HoH build, your outgoing healing will increase by at least 332% (note that we aren't even factoring in the Relentless Optimism trait). Is this increase to outgoing healing always necessary in raids? Depends on the group makeup, but oftentimes I have found it to be a major contributing factor to success. When healing 3 and 6 mans I absolutely rely on it, especially in instances like Foundry and RoF which grant enough defeat events in the trash pulls to allow endless Valiant Strike HoTs through the Menestaid/Gallant Commander 3-piece combo.

    An LtC Captain should not expect to even approach the heals put out by an HoH Captain. If he could, it would be a serious enough problem in the class's design to warrant the firing of the class designer, or at least a severe reduction to his salary.
    Last edited by GeorgeBaggy; Jul 16 2012 at 03:30 PM.

  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    I don't know why you think this is so silly.

    If War Cry has already been used and Rally Cry is on cool down or everyone is already at max HP and there is no need for a Rally Cry why not pop a Shadow's lament for some extra damage? It can land for over 3k sometimes, even when I use it - so it's a nice little attack.

    Makes a lot more sense than simply not using it at all - rather it makes you battle readied or not.
    Yeah lol , like 1% that is . How do you get that many death events without MoW traited ??? And if you get that many , in raid-trash or something ( which barely happens even there ) why don't you use preserverance so that all your death events become war/rallying cries ?????

    Well , if everyone is full ( and power is full ) , then fine , do it . It's exactly what i do as well , but thats like 1% or less . Even bringing this up is really really weird and confusing.And you said you do it all the time as HoH captain .Bah..... what are you on about QQ ?

    And what's that all about that 'any' cappy can use SL legacy on their emblem or dagor 3-set , either they are being master of war or not??????????
    Why ???? LOL , most weird/pointless thing i've heard so far .
    Last edited by BotLike; Jul 16 2012 at 03:43 PM.

  25. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBaggy View Post
    5B + Capstone = +40% WoC healing, +45% Inspire healing, +20% Rallying Cry averages out to about 35% increased healing. Rallying Cry is not used as frequently as WoC or Inspire, so I conservatively estimate that an HoH Captain's outgoing healing increase without Valiant Strike is a minimum of 45%.
    Increase from base healing is 45%? That is not just from HoH capstone. You can still trait 2 or 4 blues and get many of those percentages without going HoH capstone. You could trait 5 red and 2 blue, and still get +20% WoC and 10% extra healing from vocal skills. So it is absurd to imply that there is a huge disparity in healing by being a HoH capstone cappy. In actuality I think that a LtC cappy could have higher HPS then a HoH cappy on a single target boss without adds. The reason for this is that a LtC cappy will more then double the amount of devestating blows that a HoH cappy could do. 5% extra crit from 4 red and extra skills that can unlock rallying cry would make LtC a viable contender for highest HPS a cappy could do, even over a HoH cappy.

    Now the heals wouldn't be as strong or as controlled, but I really do think on a single target a LtC cappy could outheal a HoH cappy. That shows you that HoH is a broken capstone and something needs to be done about it.

 

 
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