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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Words of Courage + Inspire?

    If I need a RC right now, it's ToN => RC, if it isn't already on cooldown. And if you are in that situation, there's a very high likelyhood that somebody did something stupid with the fight mechanics.
    Well i do the same , though my WoC is 20% better , my inspire is 15-30% better ( trait-set+/inspire trait) , and i dont worry about RC's cd when using time of need . These are the differences ofc without a dps emblem. Heal emblem permanently geared.

    And yes , you are right , although giants-shadow-crushes/saruman-devastates are in need of on-demand heals , where you dont have the time to do chain-dps-skills in order to cover the damage done . And that damage is not always recoverable by a minstrel.

    EDIT: LtC capstone and 4r/3b are totally different builds which can't be referred as 'one or the other'.
    Last edited by BotLike; Jul 14 2012 at 07:40 PM.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    Well i do the same , though my WoC is 20% better , my inspire is 15-30% better ( trait-set+/inspire trait) , and i dont worry about RC's cd when using time of need . These are the differences ofc without a dps emblem. Heal emblem permanently geared.
    Percents are all added together, THEN applied to the base.

    So while it says it's +20%, it's actually closer to about 10% (if that).

    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    EDIT: LtC capstone and 4r/3b are totally different builds which can't be referred as 'one or the other'.EDIT: LtC capstone and 4r/3b are totally different builds which can't be referred as 'one or the other'.
    From my gearing and perspective, both are variations on the same idea: Critical Cry
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 14 2012 at 09:27 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  3. #103
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    They're not totally different builds, they're both based on defeat event generation. The LtC build trades a blue-line trait for more chances at the PA/DB crit chain. The 4R/3B build trades the Shadow's Lament -> Battle Ready capstone feature for an extra blue line trait (usually either +WoC healing or +Inspire healing) plus IDOME. They still have the same basic philosophy of using the +5% melee crit from 4 red traits to generate more Rallying Cry uses, though, so they're much more alike than they are different.

    Your continued failure to understand that red line raiding builds are for defeat event generation, not DPS e-peen, is precisely why I felt EMPHASIS CAPS were required in my previous response. Apparently, they didn't help.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
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  4. #104
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    BotLike mate, I guess it's time to stop arguing it won't bring anything, looks like some captains prefer ignoring main class role. They probably rolled wrong classes but oh well! We can't do anything about it.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    They're not totally different builds, they're both based on defeat event generation. The LtC build trades a blue-line trait for more chances at the PA/DB crit chain. The 4R/3B build trades the Shadow's Lament -> Battle Ready capstone feature for an extra blue line trait (usually either +WoC healing or +Inspire healing) plus IDOME. They still have the same basic philosophy of using the +5% melee crit from 4 red traits to generate more Rallying Cry uses, though, so they're much more alike than they are different.

    Your continued failure to understand that red line raiding builds are for defeat event generation, not DPS e-peen, is precisely why I felt EMPHASIS CAPS were required in my previous response. Apparently, they didn't help.
    Totally different builds when it comes to DE regenaration. Log your cappy when you can , and read the description of MoW leg trait mate. No capstone means much less death event generation because of non-boosted shadow's lament ^^ .
    That alone changes your gearing completely. There is much less need for dagor gearing , and command seems much more appealing even instead of preserverance - unless the fight itself has many death events.There is also no need for shadow's lament legacy on your emblem.
    4r is like 7-8% increase on crits , with more or less normal frequency ( only change comparing to b/y traits is hardened voice ) , while with capstone , the battle-ready frequency increases a lot.
    Adding to that , you have 1 extra blue-line bonus.
    Also there is a change on 1 of your 3 slots you see on the bottom of the panel , when you open your equipped traits . Those are the legendary traits , and make a big difference on your character : )

    All those can be called , BIG/TOTAL difference , and i feel sorry for you , that you need someone to explain it to you : (

    Post #99 , i am expecting a couple of answers . Do your best to justify your complicated nature and stop picking up w/e parts you find scattered in my posts , to boost my so called ' failure ' . : D The only failure here is that you don't have stable opinions and you do your best not to answer 2 simple questions that you FORCED me to ask you , just because you make no sense .. You need to see the whole picture and not only the part that supports your ideas/implements.

    I am doing my best to remind/show YOU especially a few stuff that you seem to forget or you simply never learned.

    That applies to everyone who believes blue/yellow traits are inferior/minimal/useless/overrated and everything else undermining has been posted on this thread.

    They are EXTREMELY well-balanced/useful/supportive and whether or not should be used , depends on the nature of the fight and ofc the cham...ehhhrrr captain's taste ; )
    Last edited by BotLike; Jul 14 2012 at 11:07 PM.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retarius View Post
    BotLike mate, I guess it's time to stop arguing it won't bring anything, looks like some captains prefer ignoring main class role. They probably rolled wrong classes but oh well! We can't do anything about it.
    I'm not ignoring the main class role.

    I can't help it if you don't understand how your class works.

    Edit:
    Also think there's a native language difference working against us too.

    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    That applies to everyone who believes blue/yellow traits are inferior/minimal/useless/overrated and everything else undermining has been posted on this thread.

    They are EXTREMELY well-balanced/useful/supportive and whether or not should be used , depends on the nature of the fight and ofc the cham...ehhhrrr captain's taste ; )
    Blue => Healing
    Yellow => Tanking (with one or two remnants left over from utility)

    Why are you using tanking traits when you're not a main tank or off tank?

    See, I can do the same thing too.....
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 14 2012 at 11:17 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Blue => Healing
    Yellow => Tanking (with one or two remnants left over from utility)

    Why are you using tanking traits when you're not a main tank or off tank?

    See, I can do the same thing too.....
    Because TWO ( and not one OR two ) of them are remnants left over from utility.
    Also , because the set-2 set is utility itself : *
    Also because there is a 3rd trait which i use on 2 bosses which provides me safety.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    Because TWO ( and not one OR two ) of them are remnants left over from utility.
    Also , because the set-2 set is utility itself : *
    Also because there is a 3rd trait which i use on 2 bosses which provides me safety.
    Yeah, but you do so at the expense of additional RCs and War Cries during the fight.

    So what you're really saying is Utility > additional RC, WC
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Yeah, but you do so at the expense of additional RCs and War Cries during the fight.

    So what you're really saying is Utility > additional RC, WC
    To get additional death events you don't only waste 2 yellows , but also at least 2 blues, if not 3.

    What i prefare overall depends on the fight itself.I've already said which fights i believe should go with what trait setup.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I'm not ignoring the main class role.

    I can't help it if you don't understand how your class works.

    Edit:
    Also think there's a native language difference working against us too.



    Blue => Healing
    Yellow => Tanking (with one or two remnants left over from utility)

    Why are you using tanking traits when you're not a main tank or off tank?

    See, I can do the same thing too.....
    I am afraid I understand my class too well to discuss it with you.

  11. #111
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    Time to break down the math for why the HoH traits need work.

    Most of our healing in Raid with a Critical Cry (sometimes known as a LtC build) comes from Vocal, that means WoC and Rally Cry. Inspire Healing is looked as as a nice bonus, but more as nice fluff. Valiant Strike is all but ignored because it lacks the HoT.

    For the time being, let's ignore the MoW/LtC Capstone variant and focus solely on the 4 red/3 blue version, since most captains in ToO are non-capstone builds. I'll leave the MoW/IDoME discussion for someone else to build.

    A huge advantage of a 4 Red/3 Blue setup is power conservation, because it has BOTH the Healing AND the Melee skills power cost reduction.

    For the sake of argument, let's assume the captain has 50% Outgoing healing and 20% Tactical Crit Chance. with a 5% Healing Devastate Chance. Healing Critical Magnitude is 200% (double the initial heal), and Devasted Heals do not get an additional bonus beyond the Crit bonus. I'll also assume healing emblem, and best case with that.

    Assumption with HoH Trait Priority:
    1) Now for Wrath
    2) Relentless Optimism (with sufficiently high tactical crit chance, this is the single biggest improvement to our healing)
    3) Fear No Darkness (Personal bias - I'd rather have a stronger WoC than Inspire)
    4) Deeds Before Words

    Also, for ease of simulating this, all heals only heal 100 points.

    So what improves our healing? (Yes we all know this stuff, but stating it to make sure I don't miss something)
    +10% Vocal Healing - 2 HoH Traitline Bonus
    +10% Melee Healing - 4 HoH Traitline Bonus
    +15% Melee Skills Healing Legacy
    +15% Vocal Skills Healing Legacy
    +15% Rally Cry Healing Legacy
    +20% Words of Courage Healing (Fear No Darkness)
    +20% Inspire Healing (Deeds Before Words)
    +50% Healing Critical Magnitued (Relentless Optmisim Trait)
    +10% Healing (Hands of Healing Capstone)

    Since we've already agreed that the HoH capstone isn't worth it, the upper limits:
    Rally Cry:
    100 (base) + 10 (2 HoH Trait) + 15 (Vocal Skill Legacy) + 15 (Rally Cry Legacy) + 50 (Outgoing Healing Bonus) = 190
    Minimum HoH Traits needed: 2

    Words of Courage:
    100 (base) + 10 (2 HoH Trait) + 15 (Vocal Skill Legacy) + 20 (Fear No Darkness) + 50 (Outgoing Healing Bonus) = 195
    Minimum HoH Traits needed: 2

    Inspire:
    100 (base) + 10 (4 HoH Trait) + 15 (Melee Skill Legacy) + 20 (Deeds Before Words) + 50 (Outgoing Healing Bonus) = 195

    Here's the interesting thing, with only two HoH traits, Rally Cry is improved as much as until the HoH capstone. This one fact is the cornerstone of the LtC setup, because LtC healing is all about proc'ing and using Rally Cry. At three Traits, WoC is improved to max, until the HoH capstone. So the question to drop the fourth trait comes to how much of a healing improvement is Inspire Really seeing.

    Inspire (2-3 Traits):
    100 (base) + 15 (Melee Skill Legacy) + 50 (Outgoing Healing Bonus) = 165

    I could stop right here and say that the three trait version is only 165/195 = 84.6154% as powerful as the four trait version (that's with an ingame of +30% improvement, mind you), but someone's going to complain because I ignored crit...

    From above:
    20% Tactical Crit Chance
    5% Tactical Devastate Chance
    200% Tactical Crit Multiplier
    0% Healing Devastate bonus

    Equation for figuring out average healing value assuming a specific crit chance looks like:
    base * (1 - crit chance - dev chance) + base * crit multiplier * crit chance + base * dev multiplier * dev chance

    RO gives healing a crit multiplier of 2.5 (250%) instead of 2, and dev multiplier = crit multiplier (0 + 2.5),so the equation looks like:
    = base * (1 - .2 - .05) + base * 2.5 * .2 + base *2.5 *.5
    = base * .75 + base * .625
    = base * 1.375

    To figure out the healing strength advanta 4 trait Inspire has over 3 trait:
    = (4 trait - 3 trait)/4 trait
    = (195 * 1.375 - 165 * 1.375)/(195 * 1.375)
    = 1.375(195 - 165)/(195 * 1.375)
    = (195 - 165)/195
    = 15.3846%

    Here's where the red traits come into play... What does a captain do if they aren't actively OT'ing something, healing, or buffing? DPS. For those that said "stand their and regen power", stop slacking and start whacking.

    But raw DPS in and of itself really doesn't fit with the class, DPS that's aimed at achieving something else, specifically DPS that's heavily tied to defeat response procing, is what draws me to the red traits....

    Since this post is getting long enough as is... that's next post... plus I need to go make the math pretty for crit ratings and such.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retarius View Post
    I am afraid I understand my class too well to discuss it with you.
    So stop wasting time and start discussing.

    It's the only way to enlighten us n00bs.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 15 2012 at 01:05 AM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  13. #113
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    All equations in this section originates from http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...26#post5735826

    The justification of the red traits comes from the ability to use them to construct a defeat response generation engine.

    Before going further, 20% Crit Chance needs to be accurately converted to a rating, because of Expert Attacks

    % = Yo + 1/[1 + K/(R/L - Xo)]

    From the table:
    Yo = .15
    Xo = 70
    K = 2380/3

    What we know:
    L = 75
    % = 20

    Solving the Equation for R, it becomes:
    R = L*(K/(1/(% - Yo) – 1) + Xo)
    8381.579 = 75 * ((2380/3)/(1/(.2 - .15) + 70)

    So our theoretical captain has a crit rating of 8382.

    One other key piece of information needed: Battle Shout's default cooldown: 20 seconds.

    Before comparisons have any meaning, we also need to define how to calculate Defeat Response per minute [DR/min], that is, the average number of defeat responses you will generate within a minute. Or, crit percentage * maximum number of times you see Devastating Blow and Pressing Attack in a minute.

    For the base, that's .2 * 3, or .6 DR/min.

    Following what you have, with Composure and a ToN Swap emblem, that's an additional defeat Response every 2.5 minutes, or .4 DR/min, for a total of 1 DR/min.

    For a Red Trait investment to make much sense, it will need to not only produce more DPS, but must also must beat the average DR/min of base + Composure.

    Renewed Voice will decrease BS's cooldown by 5 seconds, allowing you to have 4 chances per minute, so...
    4 * .2 = .8 DR/min

    Expert Attacks will raises the crit rating for DB and PA by 1500 to a total of 1500 + 8382 = 9882 for those two skills, a crit percentage of .2222 so...
    3 * .2222 = .6666 DR/min

    Bringing them together, it's 4 * .2222 = .8888 DR/min.

    The LtC 4 trait bonus is Crit Chance bonus of .05, which is added onto the crit chance itself, so with expert attacks, it raises it to .2722, for a DR/min of
    4 * .2722 = 1.088

    So not only does your DPS increase, but going four deep into the reds also gets you more defeat responses per minute than Composure will.

    That's the advantage of going with Critical Cry, you get healing that is on par with a deeper blue traiting, you have defeat response generation that is slightly superior (gets better with MoW), and while you don't have the safety nets, the DPS is significantly improved.

    Which plays into another point: What are you doing when you're not healing, OTing, or buffing? DPSing.

    Edit:
    **sigh** need to be ingame checking stuff while writing....

    Composure only resets on defeat skills and reduces ToN's morale cost, and the legacy affects Cooldown, so you can factor in ToN giving a red heavy build a final DR/min of 1.488, which is close to a 50% increase over the blue's and yellows.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 15 2012 at 02:37 AM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  14. #114
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    I have done all of ToO T2 CM using 5R/2B(Now for Wrath/Relentless Optimism)MoW/FB/OS. Just thought I'd throw it out there.

    My melee crit chance is around 26% Adding 1-2 Burgs puts me average crit chance on DB somewhere between 40-50%(I believe the LRM Draigoch set has a +5% Incoming critical chance debuff as well?) Adding multiple targets obviously increases the chance of a defeat response even further.

    With the current set-bonuses available in-game(Dagor/Pers) I really don't see any good reasons to use a HoH based set-up.
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  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Retarius View Post
    I am afraid I understand my class too well to discuss it with you.
    .


  16. #116
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    This has been a really useful thread. I'm one of the many cappies who's been experimenting a bit (but mostly sticking in red line) on ToO challenges as it seemed red brought the most to the raid. Like most I was pretty sure most fights were straight dps races so didn't want to drop the dps I did chip in with.

    Now we've heard from two of the very few cappies that have actually done all T2 challenges, it seems 5r 2b or a rainbow are both viable. Having read all the discussion I have come round to BotLikes view a bit more having been reluctant to stray from 5r 2b before. I was going 5r 2 b in all the wings except sometimes Acid until now, hadn't tried Saruman challenge but would have gone a rainbow for that anyway. My thinking was having better spot heals / survivability would slow us down too much from the dps race element and we'd never get challenge, but good to hear that this is not the case.

  17. #117
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    Almagnus those are some really good calculations and more or less accurate as far as i can tell.

    I'll add though to your conclusion that the actual increase of roughly 50% DE/min when comparing 4r/3b-5b/2y is actually
    1 death event per 1.5-2 minutes ( and thats a boosted conclusion ) .<---- Thats the so called death event 'bonus' , at least for 4r/3b. Otherwise , you can say its 2 or maybe 3 extra death events in a 5 mins fight.

    Also , lm/burg debuffs on the target don't apply to the maths , because they are applicable in both builds.
    That goes to Zlaughter.

    However , a significant increase in battle-ready frequency can make a difference which MAYBE would also require to take debuffs into mind.That increase is only achievable with LtC capstone , NOT with 4r/3b.
    The increase of battle-ready state while on 4r/3b is ONLY battle-hardened trait , which is a bonus , but still a minor one.

    I've already mentioned above what you sacrifice to achieve those things . Apparently to some , it worths it. To my eyes , its more an increase to personal dps than an DE generator , especially in 4r/3b and it doesnt worth it unless its F&F or zerg-fights like acid-no-spawn pew pew : )
    Last edited by BotLike; Jul 15 2012 at 08:24 AM.

  18. #118
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    Almagnus' analysis did not take the capstone's Shadow's Lament -> Battle-Ready feature into account solely out of fairness to you. He's proven already that 4r/3b matches blue/yellow and a ToN emblem for defeat event generation. 5r/2b will pass it. Oh, and any of the red builds are just as capable of using a swap emblem as a blue/yellow build, so that's not an advantage for the latter.

    Other threads have proven that a 5r/2b build produces 90% of a blue build's healing on Rallying Cry and ~80% of a blue build's healing on everything else, but in non-trash fights the 5r/2b build will fire off a lot more RCs.

    But of course you refuse to acknowledge any of that in more than a superficial way and continue asserting that red line Captains are only interested in personal DPS and don't know their role. Despite ample evidence that we understand our class perfectly well, can provide ample justification for the build choices we've made, can point to successes in game that support our assertions, and all you have is a sneering, condescending attitude at relies more on name-calling and baseless assumptions than fact-based argument.

    To you, sir, I say good day. *doffs top hat, performs an about-face, leaves thread*
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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    However , a significant increase in battle-ready frequency can make a difference which MAYBE would also require to take debuffs into mind.That increase is only achievable with LtC capstone , NOT with 4r/3b.
    The increase of battle-ready state while on 4r/3b is ONLY battle-hardened trait , which is a bonus , but still a minor one.
    MoW gives you another two defeat response chances so it looks like:

    6 * .2722 + .4 (ToN) = 2.0332

    Which can be done with a primary emblem of:
    RC Cooldown
    MC Cooldown (fear wiping = good)
    SL Cooldown
    RC Healing
    Vocal Healing
    Melee Healing

    This is also ignoring the DPS increase - I do not have the time to do the parses, but a simple analysis is that it's close to 100% because you now have twice as many BS/SL => DB/PA => BoE skill chains, and SL hits about as hard (if not harder) than DB, so the opener is a lot stronger.

    As far as actual combat goes - it relies on the captain maintaining situational awareness so they can correctly react to the situation. DPS is just the default state when there are no buffs nor heals to pass out.

    OTing while LtC traited is extremely viable. Noble Mark it, keep Cutting Attack => Grave Wound up on the target, and start focusing on DPS while spamming Inspire and RC (and WoC as needed), add in Threatening shout, and you've got aggro. This is a tool that 4B/3Y doesn't have because MoW ungates SL, which is crucial to LtC off-tanking.

    And the only assumption in any of the above: You have SL Cooldown legacy on your emblem, and you have a ToN swap Emblem. While 3 Dagor/3 Perserverance would be the most complimentary to this build (SL and RC's cooldown are reduced, and BoE will help open up SL faster), any armor sets can be used and the captain be able to reap the results I've laid out above.

    Edit:
    Spaced this, but the healing loss is with WoC this time, because RO = win.

    From above:
    100 (base) + 10 (2 HoH Trait) + 15 (Vocal Skill Legacy) + 20 (Fear No Darkness) + 50 (Outgoing Healing Bonus) = 195

    With 2 HoH it's now:
    100 (base) + 10 (2 HoH Trait) + 15 (Vocal Skill Legacy) + 50 (Outgoing Healing Bonus) = 175

    making the two trait WoC 89.7436% as strong as the 3 Trait version. So again, that 20% only really equates to around 10.2ish%.

    This makes the tradeoff ~10% WoC healing for additional RC chances and more DPS.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 15 2012 at 01:30 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  20. #120
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    Ret Traits:

    Renewed Voice - .(-5s Battle Shout Cooldown)
    Turn of the Tide - (+5% Routing Cry Damagea nd stuns)
    Captain's Valour - The Might and Agility increases provided by your Herald or Standard of War are more effective
    Expert Attacks - +[Level x 20] Devastating Blow and Pressing Attack Critical Hit
    Precise Ally - (+20% damage for Heralds/Archers)
    Loyalty - (+20% Morale +15% Damage -5% Incoming Damage Heralds/Archers)
    Battle-master - (+10% more damage Pressing Attack/Devasting Blow)
    Adherent of Elendil - (+15% damage Blade of Elendil)
    Master of War: Shadow's Lament: (Doesn't require Defeat Event - +50% Damage - Receive Battle-readied on Hit) Heralds and Archers: (+15% Morale - +25% Damage - +3% Evade)

    Red Set Bonuses:

    2 Equipped: (+15% Melee Skill Critical Multiplier)
    3 Equipped: (-5% Melee Skills Power Cost)
    4 Equipped: (+5% Melee Critical Chance)

    So let's examine this logically... and as a result from Red Traits a Lead the Charge captain can:

    Do their battleshout 5 seconds faster - Do 5% more damage on their routing cry - Do 10% more damage with their Pressing Attacks or Devasting Blows - Do 15% more damage on their Blade of Elendil - Do 50% more damage with their Shadow's Lament. They will aslo have an extra 5% melee crit and an extra 15% Melee Skill Critical Multiplier.

    Now while all of this is significant - it's not so huge that it will turn your Captain into some incredible offensive raiding machine that's obviously better than all other Captains. All of the damage increases for the Captain here are directed at specific skills. They are not overall damage increases.

    So to sum it up - there is nothing here that is going to let a Captain do 100% more damage on all of their moves. On the contrary - they are increases along the lines of 5% - 15% and are on SPECIFIC SKILLS ONLY. The largest increase these traits provide is a 50% bonus - and again, that is ONLY on a single skill and not an overall damage increase. So the offensive increases these traits provide are being exagerated here in my opinion. And this is meant generally, and I'm not pointing to any single Captain on this thread.

    So bottom line is Red Traits will give you a significant boost to your dps. But it's really no more significant than the increases the other trait-lines will give you in their respected areas in my opinion. It is not blatantly over-powered when compared to other traitlines. It's just not. And if you're in a group that will benefit from extra healing, the HoH traitline is deffinitely worthwhile. There is just nothing in these Red Traits that would make a Captain's offense so spectacular that they simply must be traited for Raids if a Captain wants to remain effective.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Jul 15 2012 at 03:08 PM.

  21. #121
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Ret Traits:
    So to sum it up - there is nothing here that is going to let a Captain do 100% more damage on all of their moves. On the contrary - they are increases along the lines of 5% - 15% and are on SPECIFIC SKILLS ONLY. The largest increase these traits provide is a 50% d.
    Yes only specific skills but the skills are the 95% of damage skills you the rest is sure strike and maybe a devensive strike if all skills have cd and this is only the fact if you have time to only dps. In situations where you have to heal too you will only use this specific skills.
    Georg Schramm "...wir brauchen Idioten sonst frisst keiner Gammelfleisch!"
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2a2230000001458a6/01003/signature.png]Thaodan[/charsig]

  22. #122
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Fresno
    Posts
    109
    I usually trait 4 red and the rest is usually whatever is needed for the particular raid. Most of the time I go two yellow and one blue. Saruman is real helpful to switch marks, F/F CM is essential to have extended last stand, and the +5 seconds to To Arms is a very very important trait to have for any DPS race. Every captain should have Now for Wrath traited, if you don't you will have the LM going crazy. Now for Wrath and Tactical Prowess should always be traited. Now going 5 deep for LtC is not worth it and I have never done it. It is more important for my group to always have iDome, fellowship brother, and Oathies. I have gone LtC on some zerg runs for fun, but we have most stuff on farm now, so it is purely for my own ego to see where my DPS is I am planning on going LtC with 3 piece perserveance set to try to get F/F CM with one burg. Having shadow's Lament available every 9 to 13 seconds depending on DPS rotation should allow me to DPS like a poorly geared champ

    Having 4 red is extremely important for the extra crit chance. Not only is our strongest heal is unlocked on a crit, but keeping up War Cry is also extremely important. Having more blue will give you stronger heals, but you will get more heals for having 5 red. Especially having the Perserveance set with 6 second rallying cry, 4 Red is the strongest captain setup IMO.

    However, I am one of the few people in my kin that has a main captain, and I am usually a tad more offensive because I have top end gear and spend a lot of time doing so. Depending on content, some captains in our kin will go more blue and even HoH. Sometimes we even have a captain trait SoD.

  23. #123
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
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    7,803
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Ret Traits:

    Renewed Voice - .(-5s Battle Shout Cooldown)
    Turn of the Tide - (+5% Routing Cry Damagea nd stuns)
    Captain's Valour - The Might and Agility increases provided by your Herald or Standard of War are more effective
    Expert Attacks - +[Level x 20] Devastating Blow and Pressing Attack Critical Hit
    Precise Ally - (+20% damage for Heralds/Archers)
    Loyalty - (+20% Morale +15% Damage -5% Incoming Damage Heralds/Archers)
    Battle-master - (+10% more damage Pressing Attack/Devasting Blow)
    Adherent of Elendil - (+15% damage Blade of Elendil)
    Master of War: Shadow's Lament: (Doesn't require Defeat Event - +50% Damage - Receive Battle-readied on Hit) Heralds and Archers: (+15% Morale - +25% Damage - +3% Evade)

    Red Set Bonuses:

    2 Equipped: (+15% Melee Skill Critical Multiplier)
    3 Equipped: (-5% Melee Skills Power Cost)
    4 Equipped: (+5% Melee Critical Chance)

    So let's examine this logically... and as a result from Red Traits a Lead the Charge captain can:

    Do their battleshout 5 seconds faster - Do 5% more damage on their routing cry - Do 10% more damage with their Pressing Attacks or Devasting Blows - Do 15% more damage on their Blade of Elendil - Do 50% more damage with their Shadow's Lament. They will aslo have an extra 5% melee crit and an extra 15% Melee Skill Critical Multiplier.

    Now while all of this is significant - it's not so huge that it will turn your Captain into some incredible offensive raiding machine that's obviously better than all other Captains. All of the damage increases for the Captain here are directed at specific skills. They are not overall damage increases.

    So to sum it up - there is nothing here that is going to let a Captain do 100% more damage on all of their moves. On the contrary - they are increases along the lines of 5% - 15% and are on SPECIFIC SKILLS ONLY. The largest increase these traits provide is a 50% bonus - and again, that is ONLY on a single skill and not an overall damage increase. So the offensive increases these traits provide are being exagerated here in my opinion. And this is meant generally, and I'm not pointing to any single Captain on this thread.

    So bottom line is Red Traits will give you a significant boost to your dps. But it's really no more significant than the increases the other trait-lines will give you in their respected areas in my opinion. It is not blatantly over-powered when compared to other traitlines. It's just not. And if you're in a group that will benefit from extra healing, the HoH traitline is deffinitely worthwhile. There is just nothing in these Red Traits that would make a Captain's offense so spectacular that they simply must be traited for Raids if a Captain wants to remain effective.
    Jeremi:
    Once again you only see trees when you need to see the forest.

    Assumption: TheoryCaptain is using a maxed Shadow's Lament Cooldown legacy.

    You're ignoring that:
    1.) Shadow's Lament enters into the captain's DPS rotation with MoW slotted. So essentially, the captain gets a skill that's not used all that much otherwise (RC and WC take higher priority over Routing Cry and SL for defeat responses).

    2.) Shadows Lament is a hard hitting skill, and I would not be surprised if the average SL damage is around 2x - 3x that of Battle-shout, so that means the SL => DB/PA => BoE skill chains START with increased damage over the BS => DB/PA => BoE skill chains.

    3.) With Master of War Slotted, the number of SL/BS => DB/PA => BoE skill chains improve from 3 to 6 per minute (with SL legacy). That's a huge DPS increase for the captain, especially considering that DB, PA, and BoE contribute a fairly large percentage of our DPS (at least, from the last time I've looked at a parse).

    Or put another way:
    LtC major DPS skills per minute:
    6 Blade of Elendils
    6 Devastating Blows or Pressing Attacks
    4 Battle Shouts
    2 Shadows Laments

    Compared to non-red major DPS skills per minute:
    3 Blade of Elendils
    3 Devastating Blows or Pressing Attacks
    3 Battle Shouts

    The LtC damage increase isn't so much about the magnitude of skills (like the HoH healing increases are), but the DPS increase is about the skill frequency. Especially when it's increasing the frequency of the hardest hitting skills in our arsenal.

    4) From the perspective of the LtC capstine, yes, you have me with the +5 seconds on To Arms, VS HoT, Composure, and 0 Mark Cooldown, and IDoME however...
    • My DPS is significantly stronger than yours, because I can use all the major DPS skills twice as often as you can
    • My heals are comparable (see 2NR-H column on https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1bUJLa3c#gid=5 - this is compared against a full HoH build btw NOT the 4 HoH build as above):
      • Rally Cry is 94.74% as strong as a HoH capstone's
      • WoC is 84.62% as strong
      • Inspire is 79.49% as strong
    • I can produce an average of 1 RC a minute + War Cry on a defeat response fight, whereas you can only keep War Cry up (2 DR/min v 1 DR/min)
    • Because of our dual bleeds and SL being ungated (and high threat), LtC is second only to LoM as far as OTing goes
    • On paper, the zero mark cooldown looks huge, in actual practice, it's not as big as many are making it out to be. I've used the marks significantly both ways, and from personal experience, it's a nice perk, but hardly needed.
    • Composure isn't really needed because I can always PoT + LI Swap and achieve close to the same thing. If I need RC right now, chances the raid screwed up the fight mechanics and are going to wipe anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by discodanman45 View Post
    Having 4 red is extremely important for the extra crit chance. Not only is our strongest heal is unlocked on a crit, but keeping up War Cry is also extremely important. Having more blue will give you stronger heals, but you will get more heals for having 5 red. Especially having the Perserveance set with 6 second rallying cry, 4 Red is the strongest captain setup IMO.
    This bears repeating because it's so true.

    Quote Originally Posted by discodanman45 View Post
    However, I am one of the few people in my kin that has a main captain, and I am usually a tad more offensive because I have top end gear and spend a lot of time doing so. Depending on content, some captains in our kin will go more blue and even HoH. Sometimes we even have a captain trait SoD.
    Nothing wrong with being offensive... we're hybrids, and we need to be able to do all three pieces of the trinity decently well should the situation call for it, in addition to the usual buffing and panic button stuff.

    Also, SotD suffers the Luigi Syndrome - it's a worthy legendary, there's at least 3 others that are better XD
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 15 2012 at 09:34 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  24. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Ok, for real, here's the thing with red line in raids.

    In HoH, I put out 300 DPS and 500 HPS.
    In LtC, I put out 700 DPS and 400 HPS.

    And to be perfectly honest, I'm not even running an ideal setup for an LtC raid, which would be a Dagor/Pers build that can easily top 1k DPS while MATCHING the HPS of a good HoH build.

    That 100 HPS is absolutely never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever the difference between winning and losing. The only reason to fail in the current endgame is because your group isn't paying attention to the instance mechanics, not because your Captain sacrificed a tiny amount of healing in order to put out over twice as much DPS.

    Most raids can survive somehow with NO Captain heals whatsoever. Real main healers in this game are good enough that Captain heals aren't actually required to beat content. The bring us for our buffs and our utility skills, not our heals, so IMO build just to bring heals is hurting your group by slowing down your completion of the fights. (And thereby increasing the chance that someone makes a mistake and wipes you. Which, again, is the ONLY reason people lose in Orthanc, unless their main healer is incredibly incompetent.)

    You're doing something horribly wrong if you aren't healing at least 40% more in HoH than you do in LtC.

  25. #125
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Watertown, MA
    Posts
    2,927
    Math, math, math. Both theorycrafting and metering has shown that the healing output difference between 5R/2B and HoH is minimal. You're going to have to do better than making assertions about what HoH should do, when it's well understood both based on number-crunching and in-game experience what HoH actually does (i.e., not as much as it should).
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

 

 
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