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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    Again ? Well , sorry but you are 100% mistaken.
    I will pretend you are affected by your personal 'cyber' war you set up with the other guy on this thread , like any of us cares.
    I am hoping on some cencoring soon : >

    Friendly advice to any neutral cappies that might watch this thread in the future.What almagnus claims in those lines , is absolutely untrue.And this is why :

    .
    Well I just want to say - as that other guy^^ - I totally agree with this.

    And I don't say this to be "passive aggressive" either.

    I say this because I don't want these generalities which are often promoted by LtC Captains (AND I DON'T MEAN THIS SPECIFICALLY ABOUT ANY PARTICULAR CAPTAIN) that Hands of Healing are somehow unfit for raiding. That's false, and they are absolutely acceptable for raiding. And if you want to raid as a HoH Captain, don't let these forums convince you that you are somehow less viable or less of an asset because of it. Because that's not true, and both traitlines bring acceptable worth to any raid if played well.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Jul 13 2012 at 06:23 PM.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    If you play dps in most bosses in ToO t2 , then only thing you will achieve is hatred from your minstrels and laughs in your kinship for your cappying leeching behind your back or even in your face. You have to help them , you are the only one who can do it : P And RC's are not enough , especially if you waste most of the time swapping sets/emblems and whatever else Glorious red cappies do in their free time : > Well , if anyone does it right at all.
    Just cause someone's 4 red or LtC, doesn't mean they aren't using WoC. Inspire and RC are essentially mandatory because a captain that deep in the reds will go out of power without doing so. So that means healing doesn't drop that much (or it shouldn't at least).

    As far as buffing goes, if the Captain's using FB + Blade Bro, it's what most raids want in ToO, so there's no change there. Other buffs are constant, and even IDoME is debateable (cause it's not that huge of an improvement, less than a percent to all ratings, with a bit of power and morale, but it's less than 200 each for most class).

    The big improvement is DPS, and if stuff dies faster, it means lesser healing load for everyone.

    And btw, this captain does not abuse the item swapping, so being effective is possible as is.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    As far as buffing goes, if the Captain's using FB + Blade Bro, it's what most raids want in ToO, so there's no change there. Other buffs are constant, and even IDoME is debateable (cause it's not that huge of an improvement, less than a percent to all ratings, with a bit of power and morale, but it's less than 200 each for most class).

    The big improvement is DPS, and if stuff dies faster, it means lesser healing load for everyone.

    And btw, this captain does not abuse the item swapping, so being effective is possible as is.
    Yep ,i agree.Idome is debateable. However the proper description is : A SMALL percentage to all ratings , for the WHOLE group.
    On the other hand you have extra dps for YOU, the captain ( ! ).

    Yes , again , everything dies faster with extra dps from a cappy , the question is : Is that really so much time that worths nerfing your class role ? : > Cause i think that in a 5 min fight , the difference between dps cappy/support cappy is only a few seconds , and veryveryvery far away from a minute : ) Those seconds can be important in giants , but everywhere else its totally useless , and it was not INTENTED for any of the bosses in ToO.Captain was never supposed to dps in ToO , and i already explained above how i justify this.Well, we were unlucky ( or lucky ? ) , we have to dps in giants , but please explain me why you put the other bosses in the same basket of ''dps races'' . I honestly believe you know your class , but these comments have nothing to do with reality and i honestly wonder if you actually do the stuff you support in this thread.

    This captain is not abusing item swapping ? Well.. without item swapping , you can't have everything , so the healing aspect is not just nerfed by a little as we've been claiming so far , but by a lot : >
    Can you please explain me how the dps captain is supposed to work ? Cause i've tried with 5 command+3 prese usage + a swapping emblem . Thats the only setup that in my eyes makes a difference. If you lose 1 of those set bonuses ( or emblem legacies ) then there is no point going dps at all.
    Last edited by BotLike; Jul 13 2012 at 06:45 PM.

  4. #79
    Is that really so much time that worths nerfing your class role ? : >
    Look at it this way:

    Do Red traited Captains accomplish various end game Raids? Check.
    Does that same Captain get invited back again next time? Check.
    Will the Captain retrait to what the Raid leader deems best if asked? Check.
    Does a Red traited Captain still perform his core "support role? Check.

    I fail to see how being Red traited nerfs my class role.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    Yes , again , everything dies faster with extra dps from a cappy , the question is : Is that really so much time that worths nerfing your class role ?
    My primary role is to be that which makes the group win. Buffing can't save people. DPS and Healing will actually make the in combat difference so I can help make the group win.

    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    This captain is not abusing item swapping ? Well.. without item swapping , you can't have everything , so the healing aspect is not just nerfed by a little as we've been claiming so far , but by a lot : >
    Can you please explain me how the dps captain is supposed to work ? Cause i've tried with 5 command+3 prese usage + a swapping emblem . Thats the only setup that in my eyes makes a difference. If you lose 1 of those set bonuses ( or emblem legacies ) then there is no point going dps at all.
    I roll 4 Dagor 2 Gallant Commander (chest and boots). My play time has asymptotically approached 0 for the last 3 or 4 months, or it would be 3 Dagor/3 Perserverance.

    DPS Emblem:
    Shadows Lament Cooldown
    Grave WOund Cooldown
    Muster COurage
    Vocal Skills Healing
    Melee Skills Healing
    Rally Cry Cooldown

    Healing Emblem (that I can swap to if I want that extra healing boost):
    Strength of Will Healing
    Rally Cry Healing
    Rally Cry Cooldown
    Vocal Skills Healing
    Melee Skills Healing
    Muster Courage Cooldown

    Weapon:
    To Arms
    Kick Cooldown
    Telling Mark
    PA Targets
    +BoE Damage
    +Cutting Attack Damage

    Because I have 2.2k might, I'm sitting at around 45ish% outgoing healing (probably closer to 46 or 47%), with my melee damage at 100% (or slightly over), melee crit at 25%, with tactical crit at 20%

    Traits:
    Now for Wrath
    Relentless Optimism
    Fear No Darkness/Turn of the Tide
    Battle-master
    Expert Attacks
    Renewed Voice
    Adherent of Elendil

    IDoME/MoW
    OS
    FB

    I start in the DPS emblem, if I need to crank out the healing, i switch to the healing emblem, then roll back to the DPS emblem once we're out of the woods. Since so much of our healing is HoT based, the 20% tactical crit chance means 1 out of every five HoT ticks will crit.

    I've also learned how to IHW w/o LS, so Defiance isn't mandatory for me, because I know how to gauge the damage in and LS when I need to.

    LIs are suboptimal when compared to a swapper, however, it covers all the bases.

    If I need more tactical mit, I switch out the Victor and Exemplar rings for the moors ring set, switch out the GC pieces for the Kapwin Chest and boots. Might will still stay over 2k.

    Take from it what you will.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by transpec View Post
    Look at it this way:

    Do Red traited Captains accomplish various end game Raids? Check.
    Does that same Captain get invited back again next time? Check.
    Will the Captain retrait to what the Raid leader deems best if asked? Check.
    Does a Red traited Captain still perform his core "support role? Check.

    I fail to see how being Red traited nerfs my class role.
    1)I believe no captain was red-traited when they first-achieved an end-game raid , in this case ToO ( Only exception can be F&F ch ). This whole debate seems newer to me . Or am i wrong ? Feel free to correct me : > But nothing is the same when you put a raid on farm. And hey , have that many captains actually finished ToO at all to have a clear image ?

    2)I'll put it this way : I have done a TONE of noob mistakes in my ''fail cappy career'' , especially when i was a beginner and i always got an invite back.However , you can never be sure if you get that invite back because of forgiving nature or because its too much of a pain for any leader to kick you permanently and find someone else : D Not sure i answered you ?

    3)Does the leader even know what captain is all about ? Perhaps he's a trusting person that is certain his kin's cappies know better than him , especially after all those 'tests' they've claimed to have put themselves through.

    4)Yep , he does , less than he can with 'standard' traits though. : O

  7. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    T I'm not the problem here. And I'm getting tired of every thread being turned into a personal debate about my gear, my stats, and the way I play my Captain because your friend has a personal beef against me and the way I play my silly video game toon. It's needs to end. And if you want to be a real friend here, convince him to put me on ignore lol
    A friend is someone who has your personal best interest at heart. I don't expect you to believe me but I was trying to be a friend with my post to you. I failed miserably so yeah it should end. I meant you no harm.
    Last edited by Armitas; Jul 13 2012 at 10:34 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/022040000000c7eb3/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    1)I believe no captain was red-traited when they first-achieved an end-game raid , in this case ToO ( Only exception can be F&F ch ). This whole debate seems newer to me . Or am i wrong ? Feel free to correct me : > But nothing is the same when you put a raid on farm. And hey , have that many captains actually finished ToO at all to have a clear image ?
    While LtC existed before RoI, it not only got a huge boost from Blade Brother, but it also had the Shadow's Lament cooldown dropped at RoI - so while it was pretty meh (and honestly not worth using) before RoI, now it's a really competitive traitline.

    I know from my time with Ramble On when they were first getting ToO down, all of the captains had at least 3 red traits, if not 4. I'm not sure if one of them went to 5 reds for some of the later HMs, but no one went HoH.

    Arguably, it's the only one working as intended at the moment - which is part of the reason why I'm continually bashing HoH and Song Brother - I want to see HoH buffed up to LtC's level, so there's a choice at raid level again.

    I'm getting really tired of the captain flavor of the month stuff that Turbine keeps doing.

    Edit:
    For point four, check out the simulation described here: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ng-Comparisons for more information on how little the HoH traits really change stuff.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    My primary role is to be that which makes the group win. Buffing can't save people. DPS and Healing will actually make the in combat difference so I can help make the group win.



    I roll 4 Dagor 2 Gallant Commander (chest and boots). My play time has asymptotically approached 0 for the last 3 or 4 months, or it would be 3 Dagor/3 Perserverance.

    DPS Emblem:
    Shadows Lament Cooldown
    Grave WOund Cooldown
    Muster COurage
    Vocal Skills Healing
    Melee Skills Healing
    Rally Cry Cooldown

    Healing Emblem (that I can swap to if I want that extra healing boost):
    Strength of Will Healing
    Rally Cry Healing
    Rally Cry Cooldown
    Vocal Skills Healing
    Melee Skills Healing
    Muster Courage Cooldown

    Weapon:
    To Arms
    Kick Cooldown
    Telling Mark
    PA Targets
    +BoE Damage
    +Cutting Attack Damage

    Because I have 2.2k might, I'm sitting at around 45ish% outgoing healing (probably closer to 46 or 47%), with my melee damage at 100% (or slightly over), melee crit at 25%, with tactical crit at 20%

    Traits:
    Now for Wrath
    Relentless Optimism
    Fear No Darkness/Turn of the Tide
    Battle-master
    Expert Attacks
    Renewed Voice
    Adherent of Elendil

    IDoME/MoW
    OS
    FB

    I start in the DPS emblem, if I need to crank out the healing, i switch to the healing emblem, then roll back to the DPS emblem once we're out of the woods. Since so much of our healing is HoT based, the 20% tactical crit chance means 1 out of every five HoT ticks will crit.

    I've also learned how to IHW w/o LS, so Defiance isn't mandatory for me, because I know how to gauge the damage in and LS when I need to.

    LIs are suboptimal when compared to a swapper, however, it covers all the bases.

    If I need more tactical mit, I switch out the Victor and Exemplar rings for the moors ring set, switch out the GC pieces for the Kapwin Chest and boots. Might will still stay over 2k.

    Take from it what you will.
    Thanks for the overview , can prove useful to people , very detailed : D

    1)Without prese = wasted death events , so lets start by saying that your healing is terribly nerfed,not just a little.
    The whole point is having prese , so you can make up for the missing buffs/healing boosts.But its true that if you don't play they don't come on their own. : ( I've had that too : (

    2)You use 2 emblems , as i did when i tried , its a must , but ideally you need to do that quite often. That alone is tiring , at least for me , i've seen people saying its not and i respect it.

    3)Not swapping gears puts the +damage buff from command out of the game. I actually wonder if command set + support traits is more overall raid dps and more survivability than the dps cappy build you suggest ? ^^

    4)IDOME/MOW ? Not having seconds thoughts are we ? I thought we were trying to destroy stuff ?

    5)I see a captain with very low vitality aka mitigation , that without hope banner traited ( if you use hope at all ) is almost a one-shot on saruman fight/giant shadow crash on a devastate : ( I think your mitigations is less than 40% without IDOME : ((((

    I am going to ask you and i promise i'll do my best to believe you whatever you say , as long as its a yes or no. Have you completed the whole ''DPS-race'' ToO t2 ch with this gearing ?

    PS. Only asking because you mentioned you haven't played much for 2-3 months so...
    Last edited by BotLike; Jul 13 2012 at 07:44 PM.

  10. #85
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    1) Healing isn't as bad as you might think. Yes, you lose the VS HoT, so while WoC and Inspire are around 80% of their HoH strength, RC is close to 95% - that is with the healing emblem. I typically ran DPS emblem on Trash, healing on bosses (you want the extra healing boost). If non-capstone, then just healing emblem. See http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ng-Comparisons, specifically the 2NR-H (Now for Wrath + Relentless Optimism w/ healing emblem), and 3FNR-H (same + Fear No Darkness) columns. Simulation Calculations are located here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1bUJLa3c#gid=4

    2) Despite what others have said, I have found that you don't need to do gear swapping to complete content. The difference we're talking about is the 90% compared to a 100%. IMO the excessive gear swapping feels like an exploit, and I don't want to do it.

    3) I'm suggesting what I have to get the ball rolling on what this looks like. I would never expect a PvE raider to have PvMP gear, but look at it as icing on the cake.

    4) It's an option if someone wanted to take IDoME over MoW, as some put the non-capstone legendaries as higher priorities over any capstone. Either way, you're looking at variations on a critical cry build (I can provide more details on gearing suggestions for those that want to do more indepth analysis on it).

    5) With the mit gear listed, it's closer to 50% or so. I omitted the tactical mit pocket and a few other things. I really need to be in a position to go a full gear listing of what I have =(

    Also, so there's a point of reference here, my ToO Completions:
    T2 Shadow
    T2 HM Lightning (one tank method)
    T2 HM Acid (as intended)
    T2 F&F
    T1 Saruman
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 13 2012 at 09:27 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    4)Yep , he does , less than he can with 'standard' traits though. : O
    such as?
    Kraken, Thesungodra

  12. #87
    1)I believe no captain was red-traited when they first-achieved an end-game raid , in this case ToO ( Only exception can be F&F ch ). This whole debate seems newer to me . Or am i wrong ? Feel free to correct me : > But nothing is the same when you put a raid on farm. And hey , have that many captains actually finished ToO at all to have a clear image ?
    Get out much gramps? That was last year, we're almost into a new expansion now, people are much better geared and Captains have better tricks up their sleeves. You also didn't answer my question.

    2)I'll put it this way : I have done a TONE of noob mistakes in my ''fail cappy career'' , especially when i was a beginner and i always got an invite back.However , you can never be sure if you get that invite back because of forgiving nature or because its too much of a pain for any leader to kick you permanently and find someone else : D Not sure i answered you ?
    You still didn't answer me, you provided an example all players go through called the learning phase.

    3)Does the leader even know what captain is all about ? Perhaps he's a trusting person that is certain his kin's cappies know better than him , especially after all those 'tests' they've claimed to have put themselves through.
    I don't follow your logic and you still didn't answer me.

    4)Yep , he does , less than he can with 'standard' traits though. : O
    Oh finally an answer, a partial answer ripe with flamebait but an answer none the less. Just using battle cry a LtC Captain gets 2 extra chances every five minutes to use PA/DB to try for a Defeat event. Oh, they also have 10 more chances in that five minute period with SL. So that is 22 chances every five minutes compared to HoH/Rainbows 10. Assuming both are sitting around at least 20% crit chance, an HoH/Rainbow Captain is looking at getting 2 Defeat Events in those five minutes. A LtC Captain will have an additional 5% crit on melee skills and an extra 4-5% from traiting Expert Attacks. That means in the same 5 minutes an LTC is looking at getting roughly 6 defeat events. I fail to see how this doesn't qualify as added support. That is 3 times as many chances to restore power/morale or to use War-Cry every five minutes.
    Last edited by transpec; Jul 14 2012 at 03:29 AM. Reason: Clarity

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by transpec View Post
    Get out much gramps? That was last year, we're almost into a new expansion now, people are much better geared and Captains have better tricks up their sleeves. You also didn't answer my question.

    You still didn't answer me, you provided an example all players go through called the learning phase.

    I don't follow your logic and you still didn't answer me.

    Oh finally an answer, a partial answer ripe with flamebait but an answer none the less. Just using battle cry a LtC Captain gets 2 extra chances every five minutes to use PA/DB to try for a Defeat event. Oh, they also have 10 more chances in that five minute period with SL. So that is 22 chances every five minutes compared to HoH/Rainbows 10. Assuming both are sitting around at least 20% crit chance, an HoH/Rainbow Captain is looking at getting 2 Defeat Events in those five minutes. A LtC Captain will have an additional 5% crit on melee skills and an extra 4-5% from traiting Expert Attacks. That means in the same 5 minutes an LTC is looking at getting roughly 6 defeat events. I fail to see how this doesn't qualify as added support. That is 3 times as many chances to restore power/morale or to use War-Cry every five minutes.
    I gave the best answers i could on your questions . You are asking general stuff that have many 'answers' in everyone's head.
    You don't like them ? Thats fine.After all , the sample of captains that have finished ToO is very small , but i still have to insist none of them used MoW capstone when they got their first kill . ( And i repeat , MAYBE F&F CM is an exception )

    I also wonder why everyone refers to the HoH capstone. Does anyone still use it ? My counter-build to the dps aspect is
    IDOME/FB/OB , not HoH.
    Also the 'standard' traits for my likes are :
    4-5b,2-3y. I always trait banner , RO , FND , NFW and sometimes inspire/numenor depending on boss.
    My yellows are to arms/composure/ and in a couple of bosses i use defiance.

    Also , i am not sure , what set-build we've been talking about so far ? What does the dps-captain have to wear in order to maximise his dps and RC's ?

    Transpec , feel free to showoff me your answers skills : )

    PS. I don't count claims of ToO being a 'DPS' race and that red traits is the way to go from anyone who hasnt finished it : <
    They have every right to say their opinion , but i personally don't count it because it's not implemented in action so it hasnt been tested at all : >
    Last edited by BotLike; Jul 14 2012 at 06:38 AM.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    A friend is someone who has your personal best interest at heart. I don't expect you to believe me but I was trying to be a friend with my post to you. I failed miserably so yeah it should end. I meant you no harm.
    Well you didn't "fail "miserably" Armitas - as I never thought you were trying to do me any "harm" ^^. I just thought you were trying to defend the other person by trying to describe what I posted as being a "passive aggressive" taunt - which I swear to all things Holy it wasn't. But if you say that wasn't your intent, and you were just trying play the neutral peacemaker, I can get behind you on that. So there is no "harm" done don't worry. And when I said things "should end" that didn't have anything to do with you specifically. I was talking about the personal beef that other guy has with me. I got no issues with you.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    I also wonder why everyone refers to the HoH capstone. Does anyone still use it ? My counter-build to the dps aspect is
    IDOME/FB/OB , not HoH.
    Also the 'standard' traits for my likes are :
    4-5b,2-3y. I always trait banner , RO , FND , NFW and sometimes inspire/numenor depending on boss.
    My yellows are to arms/composure/ and in a couple of bosses i use defiance.
    So, you have neither the DPS/defeat event generation of an LTC build, nor the healing output of an HoH build. GG, bro.

    EDIT: I should add a bit more here. IDOME/FB/OB is, in fact, the cornerstone of the 4R/3B "rainbow" build. 4B/3Y has virtually no synergy in set bonuses (the 3Y bonus is wasted on a non-tank build, and the 2Y bonus gives minimal benefit to anybody), whereas 4-5R/2-3B offers crit magnitude (icing on the cake), melee skill power reduction (useful for sustained combat), and increased crit chance (MORE RELIABLE DEFEAT EVENTS == MORE HEALING, SERIOUSLY I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH THIS IS A REALLY HUGE BENEFIT EVEN IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT DPS) from the LtC side plus extra vocal healing (makes WoC + RC more better) and healing skill power cost reduction (again, nice for sustained combat, and you double-dip the power cost reduction on Inspire) from the HoH side.

    4B/3Y gives you only the benefits of your two yellow traits, which are really minimal. 5B/2Y without the HoH capstone doesn't make any sense, because you're sacrificing a LOT of DPS/utility to get more healing and then just chucking out an extra HoT and a bunch of extra healing for no reason?! Babies and bathwater, seriously.

    I personally think 5B/2Y can work (Composure + a ToN emblem can offset the lost defeat events from a /2R build to a certain extent), 5B/2R is probably slightly better if you're going that way (again, because it drives the engine of more reliable defeat events -> more Rallying Cry uses -> MORE HEALING SERIOUSLY IF YOU CARE ABOUT HEALING THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT EVEN IF YOU DON'T HAVE 3 PIECES OF THE PERS SET), but I'd take the HoH capstone any time I had 5 blue traits in my build.

    In fact, I do take 5B/2Y with the HoH capstone for Saruman because of the combination of a long fight with a lot of AoE damage, and I can count on defeat events from the various Sarumen dying. For everything else in ToO, I've always used either 5R/2B with capstone or 4R/3B with great success: not just when my groups had it on farm, but while learning it as well. Lack of 100 HPS (seriously, that's the entire difference between 5R/2B and 5B/2Y for most content in my experience, and almost all of my healing is wasted on overheals from Rallying Cry even in LtC, because I play with main healers who don't suck) doesn't kill people, screwing up raid mechanics because your group hasn't learned it yet kills people, and an extra 100 HPS never makes the difference.
    Last edited by furtim; Jul 14 2012 at 03:23 PM.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  16. #91
    the sample of captains that have finished ToO is very small , but i still have to insist none of them used MoW capstone when they got their first kill . ( And i repeat , MAYBE F&F CM is an exception )
    I don't see what this has to do with anything in this thread. So new players to end game, people who have probably soloed most of the way to 75, end up experimenting and changing their builds around after a few Raids and get equip upgrades? That is common with any job new to the endgame scene. This has nothing to do with the effectiveness/utility of a Ltc build, or complete lack there of in certain mindsets here.

    Also , i am not sure , what set-build we've been talking about so far ? What does the dps-captain have to wear in order to maximise his dps and RC's ?
    It is a mindless and baseless assumption that LtC Captains are only concerned with their own DPS, it isn't the case at all. What am I doing to improve my RC's? How about the fact I can use 3 of them for every 1 of yours? Also, a "DPS Captain" as you put it is probably using a lot of Might and Crit gear, which oddly helps maximize their Outgoing Healing and the rate at which they Crit their heals.

    PS. I don't count claims of ToO being a 'DPS' race and that red traits is the way to go from anyone who hasnt finished it : <
    They have every right to say their opinion , but i personally don't count it because it's not implemented in action so it hasnt been tested at all : >
    From what I've seen you don't "count" anything that isn't YOUR "standard build."

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    I also wonder why everyone refers to the HoH capstone. Does anyone still use it ? My counter-build to the dps aspect is
    IDOME/FB/OB , not HoH.
    Also the 'standard' traits for my likes are :
    4-5b,2-3y. I always trait banner , RO , FND , NFW and sometimes inspire/numenor depending on boss.
    My yellows are to arms/composure/ and in a couple of bosses i use defiance.
    If you run with:
    Relentless Optimism
    Fear no Darkness
    Now for Wrath
    Tactical Prowess
    Composure
    Expert Attacks
    Renewed Voice

    I think that's really close (if not exact) to what Eola uses for raiding on E - leader of one of the best raiding kins on E.

    You drop the group safety net (which is crippling your effectiveness), and give yourself a really good start on defeat response generation with the red traits, which means that you're more likely to see RCs over the course of a fight, as well as lessening the need to lean on Composure to keep War Cry up.

    As far as the healing strength goes, without having VS HoT, you're going to be at 95% of the maximum healing strength for a HoH build. By dropping the Inspire Trait, you will still keep WoC and RC at 95% effective, and have Inspire drop to around 85% effectiveness - and that's only with three HoH traits listed above. VS's heal is so insignificant that it's completely ignorable without the HoT attached. All of this is covered in the healing simulation here:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1bUJLa3c#gid=4

    One of the big reasons why many run 4 red is the significantly improved ability to generate defeat responses thanks to +5% melee crit on the 4 LtC Traitline bonus (for many that deep, that means a melee crit chance of 25%). With how frequently you will be critting, it also means that you do not need Composure. Without Composure, that means you are losing a Traitline bonus for having Tactical Prowess - which is one of the reasons many do not run it. It's not that Tactical Prowess is a bad trait, it's that there is nothing to really pair it with that doesn't hurt your in combat effectiveness.

    Note that I'm looking at the red traits as defeat response generators, NOT DPS. It's the difference between "I WANT MOAR DPS" and "Since I just gambled on DB/PA for a defeat response, I might as well use BoE since I can". With the latter, you want to hit DB/PA as many times as you possibly can - which is why the LtC Capstone is so useful.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 14 2012 at 03:28 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    I gave the best answers i could on your questions . You are asking general stuff that have many 'answers' in everyone's head.
    You don't like them ? Thats fine.After all , the sample of captains that have finished ToO is very small , but i still have to insist none of them used MoW capstone when they got their first kill . ( And i repeat , MAYBE F&F CM is an exception )

    I also wonder why everyone refers to the HoH capstone. Does anyone still use it ? My counter-build to the dps aspect is
    IDOME/FB/OB , not HoH.
    Also the 'standard' traits for my likes are :
    4-5b,2-3y. I always trait banner , RO , FND , NFW and sometimes inspire/numenor depending on boss.
    My yellows are to arms/composure/ and in a couple of bosses i use defiance.

    Also , i am not sure , what set-build we've been talking about so far ? What does the dps-captain have to wear in order to maximise his dps and RC's ?

    Transpec , feel free to showoff me your answers skills : )

    PS. I don't count claims of ToO being a 'DPS' race and that red traits is the way to go from anyone who hasnt finished it : <
    They have every right to say their opinion , but i personally don't count it because it's not implemented in action so it hasnt been tested at all : >
    First kill Acid T2C I got was with a group with two red-heavy captains. As I said though, we zerg it.

    I used to use 3Dagor/3Pers when traited 5r/2b. 5 Menestaid for our early Lightning kills (5b/2y no capstone). Now I have the command set and use that for boss fights, no matter my traits. I'm currently trying to step-up my armor swap game to make use of many set bonuses. My Razor Naga is in the mail.

    The Command Set does not maximize my personal DPS due to the 2 instead of 3ish Shadow's Laments per minute, but it's worth using.

    I believe:
    In add-heavy situations: HoH with 3-pieces of Gallant Commander heals for far far more than a LtC build.
    In single-boss fights: HoH is slightly more survivability than LtC.
    In multi-boss fights (similar to add-heavy fights in that there are many targets for Pressing Attack, but they don't die quickly): I think LtC can equal or exceed the heals of HoH and especially no-capstone build. Provided the captain takes pains to include many targets in his Pressing Attack and uses (wears or swaps) the 3-perseverance bonus. Because you're going to get 2x as many Pressing Attacks and therefore synthetic defeat events. Works that way for me in Saru T1. I have no idea of the spacing of the clones in the T2 strat.

    Using those guidelines, I try to look at fights and my group and decide "do we need a little more heals, or do we need a little more DPS?" Sometimes it's answer one, sometimes it's answer two. For Saruman T2, it seems that captains before me have decided it was answer one: more survivabilty. I'll bear that in mind when we attempt it (not worried about the challenge at this time). But I'm also going to see for myself how red performs in there.
    Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Jul 14 2012 at 03:34 PM.
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  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by transpec View Post
    Also, a "DPS Captain" as you put it is probably using a lot of Might and Crit gear, which oddly helps maximize their Outgoing Healing and the rate at which they Crit their heals.
    Not just oddly, this is by design. I think some people here have not taken a serious look at the class changes that came with RoI, and if they have they certainly haven't taken the extra step of seeing through to the ultimate implications of those changes.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  20. #95
    my kin did the wings of ToO with 1 red cappie and one blue, or just one red.
    traited yellow for saruman in the begining, then over to red as we figured it out.

    i love my Ltc build with crit/masteries.
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  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Not just oddly, this is by design. I think some people here have not taken a serious look at the class changes that came with RoI, and if they have they certainly haven't taken the extra step of seeing through to the ultimate implications of those changes.
    To give some perspective, a mediocre geared captain with the following virtues (all r14):
    Discipline, Valour, Tolerance, Fidelity, Zeal

    Traits:
    Now for Wrath, Relentless Optimism, Adherent of Elendil, Renewed Voice, Battle-master, Expert Attacks, Turn of the Tide

    Legendaries:
    OS, FB, MoW

    Jewelry:
    Exemplar Set (Earring Purple, rest teal)
    Victor's Set (all purple)
    Ancient Moonstone and Topaz Necklace
    Easterlings War Bracelet
    Over-sized Hill Giant's Ring

    Armor:
    Dagor Helm, Shoulders, Gloves, Pants
    Gallant Commander Chest, Boots
    Wyrmscale Blademaster's Cloak

    And LI relics of:
    True Setting of the Ages x2
    Garnet Gem of the Quick Hand x2
    True Rune of the Two Trees x2
    Device of Battle x2
    West + Might and Tactical Mit + Might titles

    Using the hope banner has the relevant self-buffed stats w/o IDoME of:
    Might: 2103
    Agility: 449
    Vitality: 601
    Will: 163
    Fate: 177

    Morale: 9354
    Power: 2575
    ICPR: 1021
    Crit: 8202 (24.7% Melee, 19.7% Tactical)
    Physical Mastery: 28124 (100% Melee Damage)
    Tactical Mastery: 23062 (44.8% Outgoing Healing)
    Finesse: 5160
    Tactical Mit: 5357 (36.8%) - Keep in mind this is without scrolls

    Throw on IDoME, and that changes to:
    Morale: 9602
    Power: 2800
    ICPR: 1098
    Crit: 8464 (25.1% Melee, 20.1% Tactical)
    Physical Mastery: 28874 (102.1% Melee Damage)
    Tactical Mastery: 23812 (45.7% Outgoing Healing)
    Finesse: 5160
    Tactical Mit: 5657 (38.2%) - Keep in mind this is without scrolls

    If I need tactical mit, I will make the following Changes:
    Gallant Commander pieces => Reinforced Kapwin Chest, Boots
    Rings => Ring of the Resolute Defender, Band of Fury
    Earrings => Knight's Platinum Stud, Earring of Wrath Unleased
    Pocket =>Rune-Engraved Stone

    Stats (with IDoME) change to:

    Might: 1804
    Agility: 452
    Vitality: 980
    Will: 238
    Fate: 252

    Morale: 10383
    Power: 3027
    ICPR: 1045
    Crit: 8642 (25.4% Melee, 20.4% Tactical)
    Physical Mastery: 24945 (89.8% Melee Damage)
    Tactical Mastery: 19080 (39.6% Outgoing Healing)
    Finesse: 5160
    Tactical Mit: 9039 (50.9%) - Keep in mind this is without scrolls
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 14 2012 at 04:08 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    So, you have neither the DPS/defeat event generation of an LTC build, nor the healing output of an HoH build. GG, bro.

    EDIT: I should add a bit more here. IDOME/FB/OB is, in fact, the cornerstone of the 4R/3B "rainbow" build. 4B/3Y has virtually no synergy in set bonuses (the 3Y bonus is wasted on a non-tank build, and the 2Y bonus gives minimal benefit to anybody), whereas 4-5R/2-3B offers crit magnitude (icing on the cake), melee skill power reduction (useful for sustained combat), and increased crit chance (MORE RELIABLE DEFEAT EVENTS == MORE HEALING, SERIOUSLY I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH THIS IS A REALLY HUGE BENEFIT EVEN IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT DPS) from the LtC side plus extra vocal healing (makes WoC + RC more better) and healing skill power cost reduction (again, nice for sustained combat, and you double-dip the power cost reduction on Inspire) from the HoH side.

    4B/3Y gives you only the benefits of your two yellow traits, which are really minimal. 5B/2Y without the HoH capstone doesn't make any sense, because you're sacrificing a LOT of DPS/utility to get more healing and then just chucking out an extra HoT and a bunch of extra healing for no reason?! Babies and bathwater, seriously.

    I personally think 5B/2Y can work (Composure + a ToN emblem can offset the lost defeat events from a /2R build to a certain extent), 5B/2R is probably slightly better if you're going that way (again, because it drives the engine of more reliable defeat events -> more Rallying Cry uses -> MORE HEALING SERIOUSLY IF YOU CARE ABOUT HEALING THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT EVEN IF YOU DON'T HAVE 3 PIECES OF THE PERS SET), but I'd take the HoH capstone any time I had 5 blue traits in my build.

    In fact, I do take 5B/2Y with the HoH capstone for Saruman because of the combination of a long fight with a lot of AoE damage, and I can count on defeat events from the various Sarumen dying. For everything else in ToO, I've always used either 5R/2B with capstone or 4R/3B with great success: not just when my groups had it on farm, but while learning it as well. Lack of 100 HPS (seriously, that's the entire difference between 5R/2B and 5B/2Y for most content in my experience, and almost all of my healing is wasted on overheals from Rallying Cry even in LtC, because I play with main healers who don't suck) doesn't kill people, screwing up raid mechanics because your group hasn't learned it yet kills people, and an extra 100 HPS never makes the difference.
    I can agree with everything i have read on this thread since my last reply , but you mate , are hopeless.However , i'll do my best to give you some shining , cause at the moment , you are fully blindfolded my little champ : )

    I've got EVERYthing but PERSONAL dps 'bro', which as you've already realised , i find needless/pointless in all wings but F&F because of my class role/dps skills. And this is why :

    1)I use all 3 non-capstone legendaries which buff my group's dps/stats/buffs.Which you don't and you seem to forget.

    2)I don't use set-3 to benefit from the threatening shout cd , i am using it because of the traits themselves (on 2 bosses) and thats for safety purposes ( defiance ) and only because i am a fan of composure and the idea of maximizing group buffing ( even by a little if i can ) : * You call them minimal , i call you minimal . And we are all good : D It's my personal belief that at least 2 y traits are a total must.I've also stated that b4 , if you bothered reading . It's quite annoying for me and for anyone who ever might read this thread to read the same things over and over again.

    3)Crit-events are not reliable. Its far less than half chance, even with capped crits (which sacrifice stats like mitigations , just so you know ) : * Time of need IS reliable and on demand , has nothing to do with skill-chains , it's instant and at zero power cost( or any cost at all with a swap ). Check the description of the traited skill , you seem rusty. Now , pressing attack can indeed be a reliable death event.......in foundry. Not in ToO. Why ? Because = Acid / lighting / giants / shadow = zero aoe . You might be able to throw a couple of PA's on saruman , with the risk of breaking CC , and then again , at least they way we do it , the stacked up clones are not that many to make it a certain death event.

    4)5B/2Y sacrifices utility ? From : http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/utility
    -the state or quality of being useful.
    Ow that i am , and too everyone. Are you ? Ow well , its just a 10sec mark cooldown , a ''100 HPS'' difference , minus 5 sec to arms for the whole group , some extra power costs , minus one decent stat-buffing legendary and minus melee skills healing - who cares ? right ? SHADOW'S LAMENT makes it all good.

    HoH is a main healing duty legendary.The non-capstones are far more useful for raid content : *

    5)Your post is quite confusing . You say 2 different things together , is 5b+2y useful or meaningless ??????????
    What you say after your 'rage-caps-including' comments , is exactly my point . Time of need is the reliable source of death events : D So you don't have to say 2 different things together for the shake of your build , just agree with me : *

    6)You've used 5b/2y with HoH on saruman ? What did your kin say about the absense of idome in a survivability fight ? : ( Was the main captain sick ?
    Ow sorry , its just 225 morale.Or was it 1.2 % dps ????????????? Or 1% crit rating ? Or extra mitigations ? Pfff , sorry forgot , i think someone needs to link me the 'number' threads for a 5th time in this thread.
    Btw , i do like them , and i've seen them , but you all need to calm with all the references : )

    7)Yep i agree , you are mostly overhealing , i wonder what you are actually doing when you DO need to heal. Wait , i got it , shadow's lament + pressing attack ( for example to giants you PA the.....ehh....shadow-boss's adds for a 'RELIABLE' death event??) , and after those 2 are done , you throw a heal. Babies and bathwater, seriously < - I admit i stole that from you.

    8)I am sure ''100 HPS'' ( since thats the difference right ) doesnt make a difference to you , but they make to me , because MY difference is not 100 hps , cause i am not a non-yellow-traited-slacker , and i produce death events whenever i need them twice in every fight : * And hey , i am not overhealing because there is no point ; /

    9)You also need to calm with your caps.

    Thanks for everyone who posted builds + stat calculations , they really are interesting .
    Last edited by BotLike; Jul 14 2012 at 06:01 PM.

  23. #98
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    LtC capstone or 4R/3B can do everything you your build can, better. Period. You can prefer a different build if you want, but at the end of the day you do indeed need to face actual facts when discussing these builds in public.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    LtC capstone or 4R/3B can do everything you your build can, better. Period. You can prefer a different build if you want, but at the end of the day you do indeed need to face actual facts when discussing these builds in public.
    You've already mentioned YOURSELF , that you lose healing + traits which you refer to AS minimal , when we both know they are NOT minimal . I like BOTH builds , i can see uses for BOTH of them , even in ToO , but for dps-build its only when it comes to F&F or zerg-tactic fights , -> FOR ME <-.

    You do need to realise that you are not a LtC captain IRL , which means you need to choose a path and face actual facts when discussing these builds in public.

    So i am going to ask you again:

    1)Have you decided ? Is 5b/2y meaningless or useful ?
    2)Does LtC do everything ''my'' build can better or not ?

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    1)I use all 3 non-capstone legendaries which buff my group's dps/stats/buffs.Which you don't and you seem to forget.
    As did I when I took stuff out with Ramble On. I would say it's not a stretch that they probably cleared Shadow T2 HM with two captains in 4 red/3blue. While I cannot speak to their exact strategy in Saruman T2/T2 HM or F&F T2 HM, I would not all be surprised if a captain was deep LoM for F&F T2 HM.

    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    2)I don't use set-3 to benefit from the threatening shout cd , i am using it because of the traits themselves (on 2 bosses) and thats for safety purposes ( defiance ) and only because i am a fan of composure and the idea of maximizing group buffing ( even by a little if i can ) : * You call them minimal , i call you minimal . And we are all good : D It's my personal belief that at least 2 y traits are a total must.I've also stated that b4 , if you bothered reading . It's quite annoying for me and for anyone who ever might read this thread to read the same things over and over again.
    If you're not using 3Y to do OT'ing, that's a wasted traitline bonus =/

    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    3)Crit-events are not reliable. Its far less than half chance, even with capped crits (which sacrifice stats like mitigations , just so you know ) : * Time of need IS reliable and on demand , has nothing to do with skill-chains , it's instant and at zero power cost( or any cost at all with a swap ). Check the description of the traited skill , you seem rusty. Now , pressing attack can indeed be a reliable death event.......in foundry. Not in ToO. Why ? Because = Acid / lighting / giants / shadow = zero aoe . You might be able to throw a couple of PA's on saruman , with the risk of breaking CC , and then again , at least they way we do it , the stacked up clones are not that many to make it a certain death event.
    If you have a 25% chance to proc a defeat response, and you do it 7 times a minute, then you will likely proc one defeat response in a minute, with a strong likely hood for 2 of them.

    Also, single target => DB, multi target => PA. If there's CC in the area, always DB. That's like Captain Grouping 101 m

    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    4)5B/2Y sacrifices utility ? From : http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/utility
    -the state or quality of being useful.
    Ow that i am , and too everyone. Are you ? Ow well , its just a 10sec mark cooldown , a ''100 HPS'' difference , minus 5 sec to arms for the whole group , some extra power costs , minus one decent stat-buffing legendary and minus melee skills healing - who cares ? right ? SHADOW'S LAMENT makes it all good.
    10 Second mark is only useful when you need to change mark targets alot. Even in Draigoch, it will take you around 10 seconds just to move from one claw to another, so the 2Y bonus is useless there. Same can be said about the Bridge Club meeting up ontop of Orthanc.

    On paper, it looks like a huge advantage. In practice, it's not as big as you think it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    7)Yep i agree , you are mostly overhealing , i wonder what you are actually doing when you DO need to heal. Wait , i got it , shadow's lament + pressing attack ( for example to giants you PA the.....ehh....shadow-boss's adds for a 'RELIABLE' death event??) , and after those 2 are done , you throw a heal. Babies and bathwater, seriously < - I admit i stole that from you.
    Words of Courage + Inspire?

    If I need a RC right now, it's ToN => RC, if it isn't already on cooldown. And if you are in that situation, there's a very high likelyhood that somebody did something stupid with the fight mechanics.


    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    8)I am sure ''100 HPS'' ( since thats the difference right ) doesnt make a difference to you , but they make to me , because MY difference is not 100 hps , cause i am not a non-yellow-traited-slacker , and i produce death events whenever i need them twice in every fight : * And hey , i am not overhealing because there is no point ; /
    See above for the defeat response stuff.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 14 2012 at 06:34 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

 

 
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