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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Retarius View Post
    I am sure you have 6s CD in this "one mob zerg" but ofcourse you don't have defeat response
    It's about situations like that,one additional RC can save your raid.
    The funny thing is I have a lot of defeat responces because I crit alot - 29.something% crit (bonus from 4 reds) plus LI legacy and I have my shadow lament on a small cd (near 15 sec, cant remember exactly) not requiring defeat responce and giving me battle-readied state (MoW)

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chupakabara View Post
    The funny thing is I have a lot of defeat responces because I crit alot - 29.something% crit (bonus from 4 reds) plus LI legacy and I have my shadow lament on a small cd (near 15 sec, cant remember exactly) not requiring defeat responce and giving me battle-readied state (MoW)
    It's common when you need it,you won't get it anyway

  3. #28
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    I believe it all depends on the content your raiding group is doing.

    For example, the small casual raiding kin that I lead, we are doing Lightening T2 weekly on Thursday and Saruman T1 weekly on Monday. For Lightening T2 I ask our captains to both have Fellowship-Brother, Oathbreakers, and IDOME equipped. For their class traits I tell them they can have whatever traits they want. Some choose red line and some choose blue line. For the boss fight I just ask them to have Defiance equipped because we have both captains use In Harms Way and Last Stand when Kalbak is around 250,000 morale.

    However for Saruman T1 we ask the captains to be fully HoH traited, including their rezes traited. For their legendary traits we ask them to have Fellowship-brother, IDOME, and the HoH capstone. When we first started doing Saruman T1 we noticed a night and day difference when one group had an HoH traited captain with Song Brother on the healer, and the other group had a red line traited captain. The group with the red line traited captain struggled to stay alive and struggled to keep their power up while the healer was healing their &&& off, whereas the group with the HoH traited captain didn't struggle with morale or power at all. From that point on we have always had our captains fully HoH traited while doing Saruman T1. But the DPS race of the Lightening wing on the trash and the boss just doesn't need HoH traits at all really.

    If the other other wings are as much as a DPS race on T2 as the Lightening wing is then I would probably have my captains red line traited for them as well.

    HoH only seems to be useful if the captain is main healing or the fight is a long drawn out fight like the Saruman fight is where the healers are running out of power because of healing their asses off from all the damage.
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  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Retarius View Post
    It's common when you need it,you won't get it anyway
    Yeah, it is sometimes true. But thats the deal - I trade something for something to make my build work. I dont try to persuade anyone that "my build is uber, use my build, all yours suck", no. With every build you lose and recive some advantage. The point is to find the build that will have advantages you would like to have at the cost of features you can live without.

    You never know what you will need - sometimes it would be "damn I should have traited Composure - those double RC would have save the game for us", sometimes it would be "damn, those 400 dps from red line could make us do that challenge".
    Last edited by Chupakabara; Jul 12 2012 at 10:51 AM.

  5. #30
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    The raid group I'm in formed at the beginning of the summer and started downing stuff then, so I'm a little late to the progression party. But we're gonna keep trying to at least get the T2 deed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    Our dps side doesn't compare to true dps classes but we can provide a lot of dps with a minor loss in heals if that is what the group needs. We sit at the unique position to modify ourselves to fullfil the needs of the raid and group. We need to be dynamic not static because those needs are always changing.

    Choose your traits based on the limitations of the people in your fellowship and the requirements of the raid. Maximise heals and dps to fit the raid, leave yourself wiggle room but leave nothing wasted.
    This here lines up pretty well with how I think. You just choose based on what's in front of you and adjust. Captains are the technicians of the raid; we bring buffs 100% of the time, and if the situation calls for it we trait to slightly shift the balance of raid DPS vs raid Survivability in one direction or another. If I'd bought the bard discount last year, I'd be rich.



    What situations in T2 Orthanc call for that focus on DPS from even the small parts of the machine?
    Acid T2C zerg does.
    Lightning T2C doesn't have a demand for it. You can do well with either.
    F&F T2 might have some demand for it, as you want to burn one giant fast. But you can do well with either setup.
    That's the extent of my T2 boss knowledge.
    F&F T2C: I need more exp with that.
    Saruman T2: from what I've heard you gotta have survivability here
    Shadow T2: I haven't been in there, and I have conflicting pre-game thoughts. The Challenge is a DPS race, right. But the adds and roots oughta make HoH capabilities increase by a huge amount via 3GC+(3pers or 3 mene). I'll see for myself pretty soon here.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chupakabara View Post
    Yeah, it is sometimes true. But thats the deal - I trade something for something to make my build work. I dont try to persuade anyone that "my build is uber, use my build, all yours suck", no. With every build you lose and recive some advantage. The point is find the build that will have advantages you would like to have at the cost of features you can live without.

    You never know what you will need - sometimes it would be "damn I should have traited Composure - those double RC would have save the game for us", sometimes it would be "damn, those 400 dps from red line could make us do that challenge".
    Just notice I would loose 10% group DPS if I would be standard red traited 3 pers+3 dagor cappy.

  7. #32

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    I use the Red line with 3 perseverance 3 dagor and 29.4% chance to crit (actually much higher with unseen trait/leg). Rallying cry is on a 6 second cd with shadow's lament cooldown around 15second(I forget but it's very low). By the time my bs,db, boe goes down my sl,db,boe is back up.

    I couple red line with relentless optimism and now for wrath.



    If they are doing that much dps then they are probably not having to heal all that much. You could probably hold most of their heal value down with relentless optimism, and increase their dps with 5 reds.
    I run the exact same thing, but use all Moors Perseverance, and Command, having the Loyalty set is great in a raid as well, since you can get your ICR to 2 mins 30 seconds. 6s RC is absolutely great in raids, high crit, with relentless optimism and NFW keeps the raid up and powered. Really havent had any complaints while raiding about using the Moors armor. With jewelry and what not you can get 25% crit easy, 1600+ might, and a bit over 1000 Vit. Overall great for raid. Hope this helps.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retarius View Post
    Just notice I would loose 10% group DPS if I would be standard red traited 3 pers+3 dagor cappy.
    Yeah I don't use my 3pers/3dagor in raid bosses anymore, and I wouldn't recommend it over the Command set (though I do try to hot-swap in Saruman T1). One exception: Though the first time we did Acid T2C, the other capt had Command covered and I was using 5 GC. Eventually we decided that 5GC wasn't a game changer for us so I ended up switching to 3dagor/3pers.
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  9. #34
    The reason why a Captain traits dps for a somes raid is simply because all the T2 content right now consist on dps races. When traiting red you are swapping healing capabilities for DPS. If those heals are not needed, I don't understand why you wouldn't trait DPS.
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  10. #35
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    The only time you truly need Defiance is when you have an AE boss mechanic like OD Ivar, and the group is going to wipe unless th captain gos IHW/LS. If you are using IHW frequently enough in ToO to need Defiance, you are doing it wrong.

    Blood of Numenor is the captain equivalent of putting training wheels on a Harley, then taking the abomination down to the Harley Davidson shopand bragging about it. It's a useful trait when learning content, but if your raid is relying on it, they need to stop sucking and learn to play.

    Composure is an interesting trait, but unless you have the Time of Need legacies on a swap emblem, it's not worth using because you need two bump legacies that are continually useful for something that was a fairly long cooldown. The tradeoff isn't worth it - especially when you can pick up Rnewed Voice and Exper Attacks, and then achieve the exact same thing, but with more DPS to boot.

    Which comes down to Tactical Prowess - it's more of a victim of LoM being a tank line instead of being the utility line it once was. Since there's nothing really worthwhile to pair it with (given the current raid environment), I would rather slit a tranit that either unlocks a traitline bonus or acapstone. Yes, you are sacrificing a little bit of group buffing - but at the same time you are increasing your personal DPS.

    I can see 3 blue traits because it helps with power efficiency, whereas all the fourth blue really gives you is a better Inspire, and only a improvement of roughly 15% healing strength, assuming you have a healing embelem slotted. The HoH capstone itself only improves captain healing strength by around 5%, while alsi granting a second HoT (which should be higher if Song Brother was as screwed up as it was). So the qustion with the Blue Traits is how much captain DPS are you willing to trade for healing - and is the healing really needed? For most of the boss fights in ToO, it is not.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by aadaboy19 View Post
    Whats wrong with being Elite?
    I never said there was anything "wrong" with being Elite. So I don't understand the question.

    I said it can lead to clique syndrome, which can cause them espouse generalities that are untrue.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Jul 12 2012 at 11:45 AM.

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Retarius
    And You keep ignoring that I have armour set bonus advance because I don't have to use set to keep my power up. 10% of raid damage outDPS all Your "long list of nothing" without doubt.
    I've ignored it on purpose. The fact you're trying to use a armor set as an advantage for your build over Red line is laughable at best, pathetic straw grasping at worst. Any decent Captain won't have power issues in red line and is fully capable of wearing whatever armor set is deemed best for the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Botlike
    Composure is meh??? WHAT is this again ?? Does anyone in this thread actually uses time of need??? I don't care if you use a switch emblem or not , for morale/cd ( which you should ) , its like the most epic skill we have when things go wrong.Harms way wont do @#$% if your fs is down to 1k morale . There are 2 skills in the game that 99% save a wipe when fs goes very-low , thiumphant spirit and 2 RC's in a row with time of need , or even one only (but on demand).
    This could be accomplished with 3 Perseverance without the need of a trait and you're also relying upon having a perfectly timed defeat event for your double RC. In a blue/rainbow build you get 3 chances a minute to trigger a defeat response where as a LtC Captain has at least 5 chances a minute, and sometimes 6 from traiting Battle Shout cooldown, assuming both are using Battle Tonics like they should.

    To put it in perspective, just from traiting Battle Shout you're getting 12 extra chances of triggering Defeat Events every half hour and while traited LtC you're getting another 60. That hardly sounds like a waste of traits and a capstone.

    Lastly, Oath Breakers is +35% damage for 10 out of every 300 seconds. It is nice when the situation calls for it, you can't just blanket it as the 'one trait to rule them all' 100% of the time. It is situational just like traiting a specific way. I might find LtC more useful overall 95% of the time but that doesn't stop me from traiting HoH/LoM or swapping equip/banners when the situation arises.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by transpec View Post
    I've ignored it on purpose. The fact you're trying to use a armor set as an advantage for your build over Red line is laughable at best, pathetic straw grasping at worst. Any decent Captain won't have power issues in red line and is fully capable of wearing whatever armor set is deemed best for the situation.



    This could be accomplished with 3 Perseverance without the need of a trait and you're also relying upon having a perfectly timed defeat event for your double RC. In a blue/rainbow build you get 3 chances a minute to trigger a defeat response where as a LtC Captain has at least 5 chances a minute, and sometimes 6 from traiting Battle Shout cooldown, assuming both are using Battle Tonics like they should.

    To put it in perspective, just from traiting Battle Shout you're getting 12 extra chances of triggering Defeat Events every half hour and while traited LtC you're getting another 60. That hardly sounds like a waste of traits and a capstone.

    Lastly, Oath Breakers is +35% damage for 10 out of every 300 seconds. It is nice when the situation calls for it, you can't just blanket it as the 'one trait to rule them all' 100% of the time. It is situational just like traiting a specific way. I might find LtC more useful overall 95% of the time but that doesn't stop me from traiting HoH/LoM or swapping equip/banners when the situation arises.
    Not really. I use it as advantage because captains that tend to use red traits simply ignore this set to see their own big numbers and THIS is pathetic, to e-peen your parses and ignore needs of group. Anyway I found at least one captain and one that partialy agrees with me and it's all I need.

    @Almagnus
    Can't pick on me,pick on group huh? Nice try but won't work.
    Last edited by Retarius; Jul 12 2012 at 12:27 PM.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retarius View Post
    *picks gauntlet*
    LtC= champion wannabe,downright stupid unless soloing stuff/moors, you have double HoH DPS and give nothing more than properly geared HoH captain.
    What's ironic is that the moors is like the worst place for LtC. I have no idea why so many people run it there, besides that they want e-peen from KB's. Or they're solo'ing. I'll be happy to 1v1 any captain on my defiler, and outheal your dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Retarius View Post
    My usual raiding setup:
    2 captains= around 900 DPS each=1800 both
    1 LM= lets say around 1000 DPS
    how do your captains do 900 dps while not in red line? More like 400-500 bro.
    And, no sorry. Unless your LMs trait red. But then - you're doing it wrong. Yellow is far better for a single LM raiding.


    I'd challenge some of your other dps numbers but it doesn't change anything. You're right: The command set contributes more dps than traiting MoW. At least for those of you who are ViP and farmed up 30,000 commendations for the set (which is frankly one of the worst sets for pvp). For everyone else, it really has no merit. Also apparently it hasn't occurred to you that you can run MoW or 4r while wearing the command set, and while you won't get the dagor/pers. Bonuses you'll still be doing significantly more damage and receiving significantly more crit responses than you would in your rainbow setup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Retarius View Post
    Defiance is brilliant trait,You give your healer additional 10s to heal cappy up,without trait after using IHW and your healer will be busy elsewhere you are dead.
    Defiance is a terrible trait. First off in what raids is IHW actually required? I occasionally use it in lightning t2 and shadow t2. I never trait defiance, and I rarely ever die while using IHW. Almagnus said it right: Defiance is a crutch trait for captains that haven't learned how to use IHW without it. Often IHW is used in the final phase of a fight, and the group is either going to die when it expires, or you're going to kill the boss (Ivar comes to mind). Also, on the offchance you die while IHW is up... you can simply be res'd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Retarius View Post
    Blood Of Numenor gets your rezzes to reliable amounts of morale/power after rez I find it very handy unless you like in kind of sense murdering your fellow with CoV and it's not so hard for AOE in ToO.
    I do like BoN. But you can run 2b/5r or 3b/4r, and I often bring this along if I think I will want to use CoV. I'd much rather have R.O. But sometimes I'd rather be able to res reliably than have better healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Retarius View Post
    But why to help yourself with power problems in LtC when you can have no problems in rainbow/HoH builds?
    Due to 3r giving you a significant -melee power costs buff, running with at least 3 reds is the best thing you can do for your power. MoW gives you the full BB benefit; I've solo'd limlight trees in this setup (with a 1h) and not had power issues. I don't see why I would have them in a raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Retarius View Post
    Why would anyone want to be RC machine every 6s? We have LMs for power, Rune-keepers and Minstrels for Morale so why not to increase group DPS by buffing group instead of trying to get this DPS yourself and in fact making yourself troubles.
    Believe it or not LM's have better things to do than use a 20s channel to restore other people's power. BtW, in any given raid, if your captain is decent, he will restore far more power than a lore-master... Also healers always need help healing. If your healers don't need help, you brought too many.

    TL;DR: Most traitlines are good, defiance is a crutch, lore-masters are people too. Command set is way better in PvE.
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  15. #40
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    Most people in this thread are clueless.
    HoH is not the end all be all of the captain.
    If you are running PUGs and you need to be on your toes at every second and rez people every 2.5 minutes then yes by all means trait HoH every run.

    If you run content with a good group of people who do not need to be rez'd or overhealed then why on earth would you still trait for it?

    I favor HoH currently because I have many alts and haven't geared my captain yet. I don't trait HoH to be a heal assistant; I trait it to use inspire with song brother to keep my power bar full.

    I ran a full ToO run last week and didn't use my hope banner.
    Why? Because my group didn't need the extra morale. The only people taking major damage were the tanks.
    I had 3 champs in my group so I used my war banner, 30s To Arms, & WarCry always active.
    Things melted. Even in Saruman........war banner.
    Melted.

    Captain is the jack of all trades; master at none.
    Not a healer or dps class.
    Last edited by Nytshade617; Jul 12 2012 at 12:35 PM.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    THIS. ( Though i hope you dont count LoM too for raids ??? At least for the time being ? : ) )
    LoM is still valid in certain circumstances for raids, i.e. when you're the second tank for Fire & Frost
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuneBug View Post
    What's ironic is that the moors is like the worst place for LtC. I have no idea why so many people run it there, besides that they want e-peen from KB's. Or they're solo'ing. I'll be happy to 1v1 any captain on my defiler, and outheal your dps.


    how do your captains do 900 dps while not in red line? More like 400-500 bro.
    And, no sorry. Unless your LMs trait red. But then - you're doing it wrong. Yellow is far better for a single LM raiding.


    I'd challenge some of your other dps numbers but it doesn't change anything. You're right: The command set contributes more dps than traiting MoW. At least for those of you who are ViP and farmed up 30,000 commendations for the set (which is frankly one of the worst sets for pvp). For everyone else, it really has no merit. Also apparently it hasn't occurred to you that you can run MoW or 4r while wearing the command set, and while you won't get the dagor/pers. Bonuses you'll still be doing significantly more damage and receiving significantly more crit responses than you would in your rainbow setup.


    Defiance is a terrible trait. First off in what raids is IHW actually required? I occasionally use it in lightning t2 and shadow t2. I never trait defiance, and I rarely ever die while using IHW. Almagnus said it right: Defiance is a crutch trait for captains that haven't learned how to use IHW without it. Often IHW is used in the final phase of a fight, and the group is either going to die when it expires, or you're going to kill the boss (Ivar comes to mind). Also, on the offchance you die while IHW is up... you can simply be res'd.


    I do like BoN. But you can run 2b/5r or 3b/4r, and I often bring this along if I think I will want to use CoV. I'd much rather have R.O. But sometimes I'd rather be able to res reliably than have better healing.


    Due to 3r giving you a significant -melee power costs buff, running with at least 3 reds is the best thing you can do for your power. MoW gives you the full BB benefit; I've solo'd limlight trees in this setup (with a 1h) and not had power issues. I don't see why I would have them in a raid.


    Believe it or not LM's have better things to do than use a 20s channel to restore other people's power. BtW, in any given raid, if your captain is decent, he will restore far more power than a lore-master... Also healers always need help healing. If your healers don't need help, you brought too many.

    TL;DR: Most traitlines are good, defiance is a crutch, lore-masters are people too. Command set is way better in PvE.
    LtC is worst traitline in EM? Yeah if You have kind of DPS class to leech from.

    As I said,numbers weren't exact,just wanted to point how big difference can be.

    I trait defiance because healers can have more important targets than me (in shadow for example -80% inc healing debuff I think,yet tank must get heal)

    I don't understand LM comment, I don't use red trait line so I don't have power problems at all.

  18. #43
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    Anyone have the defeat response calculation math?

    That would solve a few of these complaints.
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    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    Don't try to prove that the buff/heal standard of HoH trait line ( not the leg , i doubt many use it anymore ) is useless , or overrated and that dps approach can give you dps without sacrificing things , or sacrificing '100' HPS. It's simply not true,you do sacrifice a tone of stuff to get LtC.
    When reading some of the replies here , i was like , ' W@$ ' . People claiming that captains don't haave to heal in ToO ???
    That composure is meh ??? That idome is just 1.2% extra dps or something ? What about the other stats, do you even count them , or its all dps to you ? It looks more like an ''extra'' level to me at least.What is this ?
    You sound like repressed captain users that got an invite for example 2 years ago in a watcher run , and got a dismiss in the head because you were red traited.
    Some of the stuff you see here comes from many months of posting, debating, and data gathering. I'm sorry you missed all that but they/I were not just making stuff up. Best way to catch up is the cappy resource sticky. I've been trying to keep it all organized there.
    Last edited by Armitas; Jul 12 2012 at 12:55 PM.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    Don't try to prove that the buff/heal standard of HoH trait line ( not the leg , i doubt many use it anymore ) is useless , or overrated and that dps approach can give you dps without sacrificing things , or sacrificing '100' HPS. It's simply not true,you do sacrifice a tone of stuff to get LtC.
    When reading some of the replies here , i was like , ' W@$ ' . People claiming that captains don't haave to heal in ToO ???
    That composure is meh ??? That idome is just 1.2% extra dps or something ? What about the other stats, do you even count them , or its all dps to you ? It looks more like an ''extra'' level to me at least.What is this ?
    You sound like repressed captain users that got an invite for example 2 years ago in a watcher run , and got a dismiss in the head because you were red traited.
    Yep mate,Composure is meh. In these days raid member will wait 6s with his death for additional RC IF 99,9% crit chance on DB/PA will work if not then meh,blame healer we are not healing class.

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  21. #46
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    Man, the Captain community has really gone downhill. In addition to the original post--which looked like a polite request for information and turned into the OP digging in his heels and mocking whatever information he got as useless--we have a bunch of responders doing the same and just campaigning for their own build.

    There are *many* ways to trait your Captain and be successful. For anything less than a raid, it doesn't matter at all. For raids, more depends on your playstyle, LIs, and your group's needs than any particular trait line.

    Seems like people are just arguing to argue. We'll be the Hunter forum before you know it.
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  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Retarius View Post
    Not really. I use it as advantage because captains that tend to use red traits simply ignore this set to see their own big numbers and THIS is pathetic, to e-peen your parses and ignore needs of group. Anyway I found at least one captain and one that partialy agrees with me and it's all I need.

    @Almagnus
    Can't pick on me,pick on group huh? Nice try but won't work.
    so if you say that, then you also could agree with

    traiting precision is bad because a couple hunters that use precision also use bad armor sets

    which doesn't really make sense. if your group needs no extra healing, trait 5 red, with to arms duration and 1 other. or 4 red 2 lom 1 hoh with FB/oath/idome

    i see no place where i am sacrificing buffs and my group is still perfectly fine with mini anthems rolling and everyone healed up

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    I do both depending on what we need. I just thought that would best represent a reason to go red over blues. I have a total of 5 empty slots in my bags, I use those slots to hold my tears over how much junk I have to carry around.
    lol i hear you i have 2-3 empty usually it sucks
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  23. #48
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    7,600
    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    For raids, more depends on your playstyle, LIs, and your group's needs than any particular trait line.
    If we had more encounters like Saruman and F&F (without the insane difficulty that is), I'd agree with you.

    Since most of the bosses in ToO are DPS races - it plays to LtC's strengths way too well.

    We need more raids like OD and less like ToO.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Retatius
    Not really. I use it as advantage because captains that tend to use red traits simply ignore this set to see their own big numbers and THIS is pathetic, to e-peen your parses and ignore needs of group.
    You're talking about fail players, really fail players, which is just more straw grasping. Provided someone has access to Moors. and provided they have the time to acquire the commendations, and provided they did, why in the world would someone "only interested in their own big numbers" not use a set which adds 10% to their overall damage? Also, like its been said, not everyone has access to the Moors and not everyone has a vested interest in the place. I can't imagine anyone ever looking down upon any class because they don't have a Moors set.

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    3,712
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    If we had more encounters like Saruman and F&F (without the insane difficulty that is), I'd agree with you.

    Since most of the bosses in ToO are DPS races - it plays to LtC's strengths way too well.

    We need more raids like OD and less like ToO.
    Most?

    Saruman isn't. Lightning isn't, Acid doesn't have to be. F&F challenge *is*, but probably not intended to be.

    That leaves Shadow.

    2 T2 challenge modes out of 5 and 1 T2 non-challenges out of 5, if you count Shadow, require a DPS race.

    "Most" would be 3/5.

    I may trait 5 red in specific instances, like the zerg strats for Acid and F&F T2C, or Shadow T2C, but it's not as if it's the best setup for a majority of content.
    [color=red]Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...[/color]

 

 
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