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  1. #26
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    Let's actually get some sensible referential material into this debate.

    "No wizardry, nor spell, nor dart,
    No fang, nor venom devil’s art
    Could brew had harmed him; for his weird
    Was woven. Yet he little feared
    That fate decreed and known to all:
    Before the mightiest he should fall, before the mightiest wolf alone
    That ever was whelped in cave or stone."

    Lays of Beleriand

    This refers to Huan, the Hound of Valinor, who is fated not to die until he should meet the mightiest of all wolves. The wolf in question turns out to be Carcharoth, who has bitten off the hand of Beren.

    This to my mind says two things:

    1: The mightiest wolf, that paragon of wolfhood to whom all wolves should aspire is the one who eats directly from the hand of Morgoth himself. It doesn't say the mightiest evil wolf, the mightiest warg, but the mightiest wolf.
    2: There is an obvious parallel with the Norse tale of the Fenris wolf biting off the hand of Tyr. Tolkien is drawing heavily on the norse concept of wolfdom throughout the books, even naming the offshoot race, the wargs, after the norse word for wolf (vargr in old norse).

    Set against this wolf on the side of light, is a wolfhound. A dog, albeit a big dog!

    "At last, in the year when Earendil was seven years old, Morgoth was ready, and he loosed upon Gondolin his Balrogs, and his Orcs, and his wolves; and with them came dragons of the brood of Glaurung"
    Silmarillion

    “Escaping goblins to be caught by wolves!” he said, and it became a proverb, though we now say ‘out of the frying-pan into the fire’ in the same sort of uncomfortable situations.”
    The Hobbit

    Tolkien's wolves are those of the norse myth. They are the wolves of Grimm's tales who will gobble up little red riding hood. Peter's wolf who swallows ducks alive in one gulp. Robinson Crusoe's wolves, eating men alive

    I've got nothing against wolves, but this is Middle Earth, not the Belgariad, not Call of the Wild, not Dances with Wolves. It's Middle Earth, where the wolves are evil.

    I'll grant that simply because "neutral" or "common" wolves are not mentioned in the books doesn't in itself prove their non-existence. It is of course impossible to prove a negative. To accept that they can exist, however, I think we need to see something which gives the possibility. Something in Tolkien's background, the source material he draws upon and so forth.

    As far as I can see, all the available source material leads to only one conclusion, middle earth wolves are by nature, evil. Evil from the earliest of times, allying with Morgoth and marching with him to Gondolin. There is simply nothing which points any other way, I cannot accept an argument which is based on nothing more than an unsupported opionion of: Well, there surely must be!
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatharil View Post
    I haven't seen a sabretooth just threaten to attack, yet.
    Instead of going through my argument finding the tiny flaw, how about you make a concrete, well supported and well referenced argument of your own.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tromador View Post
    Can you support your fact with some appropriate references. I am unaware of any references in the legendarium to common wolves, but of course I could be wrong, feel free to illuminate me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tromador View Post
    "No wizardry, nor spell, nor dart,
    No fang, nor venom devil’s art
    Could brew had harmed him; for his weird
    Was woven. Yet he little feared
    That fate decreed and known to all:
    Before the mightiest he should fall, before the mightiest wolf alone
    That ever was whelped in cave or stone."

    Lays of Beleriand

    This refers to Huan, the Hound of Valinor, who is fated not to die until he should meet the mightiest of all wolves. The wolf in question turns out to be Carcharoth, who has bitten off the hand of Beren.
    As a matter of fact , I can .

    Let's start with Carcharoth :

    From the "Lay of Lethian"

    Fierce hunger-haunted packs he (Morgoth)had
    that in wolvish form and flesh were clad,
    but demon spirits dire did hold
    and ever wild their voices rolled
    in cave and mountain where they housed
    and endless snarling echoes roused.

    From these a whelp he chose and fed
    with his own hand on bodies dead,
    on fairest flesh of Elves and Men,
    till huge he grew and in his den
    no more could creep, but by the chair
    of Morgoth's self would lie and glare,
    nor suffer Balrog, Orc, nor beast
    to touch him. Many a ghastly feast
    he held beneath that awful throne,
    rending flesh and gnawing bone.

    There deep enchantment on him fell,
    the anguish and the power of hell
    more great and terrible he became
    with fire-red eyes and jaws aflame,
    with breath like vapours of the grave,
    than any beast of wood or cave,
    than any beast of earth or hell
    that ever in any time befell,
    surpassing all his race and kin,
    the ghastly tribe of Draugluin.
    http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Draugluin

    The Fellowship of the Ring , Chapter IV , A Journey In The Dark

    When the full light of the morning came no signs of the wolves were to be found , and they looked in vain for the bodies of the dead . ...

    'It is as I feared' , said Gandalf . 'These where no ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness ...' .
    And now , here's a small link with an interesting collection of articles , wich of course cover the subject of wolves .

    http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/articles/w/wolvesI.htm

    I Animals

    I A Normal wolves.

    Wolves are predators, and hostile to other animals and mankind. Yet they are not evil. They can be aggressive, especially when wintery conditions make them hungry. Under this category should for instance the fell wolves of winter be mentioned who invaded the Shire in 2911. Hungry, mean and aggressive yes.But not evil or unnatural.
    I B Corrupted Wolves.

    Wolves can be trained by Orcs and Goblins to fight at their side. But higher spirits as e.g. Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman have both the ability and inclination to actually corrupt the natural state of beings. Tolkien generally tends to describe the result of wolf-corruption as wargs, but also as wolves. They appear for instance when attacking the Fellowship at the foot of Caradhras. These are not normal wolves. Gandalf calls their leader "Hound of Sauron", but that is probably a poetic liberty, for no doubt these wargs were in the service of Saruman. Another predominant role is played by wargs and warg-riders in the slaying of Theodred, son of Theoden (Unfinished Tales, The Battles of the Fords of the Isen). This also, was at the bidding of Saruman.
    It has been suggested that wargs are intelligent creatures, having Fëar (spirit). I don’t find enough evidence to sustain that suggestion, probably caused by confusing wargs with werewolves.


    U
    nless you suggest that Morgoth / Sauron corrupted aaaaaaaaaaaall the wolves in Middle Earth , or that he himself bred wolves by twisting another unknown creature , all of these "wolves are evil" is pure miss-informed nonsense .
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/222190100001be9b6/signature.png]Berserkr[/charsig]
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louvre View Post
    As a matter of fact , I can.
    Well, that's fair enough then.

    Draugluin and his lot are/were werewolves, of course. Carcharoth not one of them - but I take your point from Gandalf's words.
    Last edited by Tromador; Jul 11 2012 at 06:37 PM.
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  5. #30
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    I only have one request instead of eagle being a legendary pet just make it like idk a regular pet ? idk bout neone else but I find myself using raven the most
    ( R13 LM Savvii Arkenstone )( R13 Defiler Ghankstar Landroval )


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  6. #31
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    I'm against new pets, they should just scale and tinker with our current ones, give sabre-cat an innate trait which reduces his chances of breaking CC or something, make Spirit heal more, improve dps on all as we level up ...
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tromador View Post
    As far as I can see, all the available source material leads to only one conclusion, middle earth wolves are by nature, evil. Evil from the earliest of times, allying with Morgoth and marching with him to Gondolin. There is simply nothing which points any other way, I cannot accept an argument which is based on nothing more than an unsupported opionion of: Well, there surely must be!
    Ok, you require clear lore citations to justify something in the game, I can respect that .. so your citation for, say, sabretooth tigers would be ... ?

    If you can't find one then I assume to you they're just as unjustifiable as non-evil wolves, as are many others in the game's bestiary. The game is going to be very, very boring if you limit it to entirely what Tolkien wrote about.

    A non-evil wolf is entirely plausible if one assumes, as intelligent beasts, they can be trained .. something that doesn't exist in Tolkien's works seems far more difficult to justify.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerin_Eldar View Post
    Ok, you require clear lore citations to justify something in the game, I can respect that .. so your citation for, say, sabretooth tigers would be ... ?
    Incorrect logic:
    1: You presume I am in favour of sabretooths (as pets or otherwise) in the game.
    2: You presume I was ever asked my opinion of sabretooths in the game.

    The original argument was an argument from silence, where your position on wolves was unsupported by evidence.
    Now you are trying to construct a straw man, representing me as the champion of sabretooth tigers, or in fact stating I "require clear lore citations to justify something in the game". I never said that.

    Overall I would describe bringing sabretooths into this debate as a red herring fallacy.
    Come to think about it, it's also an fine attempt at shifting the burden of proof.
    Last edited by Tromador; Jul 12 2012 at 12:30 PM.
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  9. #34
    In the game, my opinion is that wolves are evil. Use Knowledge of the Lore-master on any wolf and you can clearly see that its alignment is EVIL. The lore-master's other pets usually hold a neutral alignment. Therefore, in my opinion, a wolf would not make a good pet. I do agree, however, that instead of a new pet the old ones need to be updated.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    What do you mean with my argumentation? I never commented on your crazy wolf idea, you crazy person. :P
    (tongue in cheek there)
    1.)It wasn't a singulary "you" it was a general "you"- adressing everyone prejudicing every wolf ;P

    2.)I can't find the quote now, but Tolkien often wrote wolf when he meant werewolf e.g. Carcharoth and werwolf=/= wolf. I read it inother thread some time ago where wolves were discussed.
    As you say wolfhounds and dogs arent wolfs, but the same is true for werewolfs. They aren't wolfs. They WERE wolves or their ancestors were (corrupted)wolves. There is no single passage saying wolves in general are evil. It's just your conclusion without any clear evidence.

    3.) Too much offtopic. And to say it clearly again: I don't want a new pet. I don't want a wolf. I just hate the stupid simple prejudices.

    4.) Crebain(Crows and ravens are the same family- crows belong to the ravenfamily) and wolves both aren't evil. They both are "intelligent" and trainable and have been used by eitherside. Good and evil. Even in the northwestern literature not everywolf is evil. Dangerous doesn't mean evil. And if you scan bears and sabretooth, they are evil too.
    And something to add to the crebain: They aren't evil, they were servants of Radagast fulfilling Sarumans commands (As we all know Radagast doesn't suspect Saruman to be evil and offers his help/birds/crebain).

    We can't be 100% sure, there is no clear passage "every wolf is evil". There are only a few passages about SOME evil wolves, werwolves and wolfdecendants.

    You don't want wolfpets, that's ok(I don't want wolfpets either), but don't say all wolves are evil without a clear evidence. There are only some indications, no evidence.
    "in dubio pro reo"
    Last edited by Tatharil; Jul 12 2012 at 08:07 PM.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatharil View Post
    2.)I can't find the quote now, but Tolkien often wrote wolf when he meant werewolf e.g. Carcharoth and werwolf=/= wolf. I read it inother thread some time ago where wolves were discussed.
    Draugluin and his mob were werewolves, but to my mind it's clear Carcharoth is an actual wolf.

    4.) Crebain(Crows and ravens are the same family- crows belong to the ravenfamily)
    Along with Rooks and Magpies, I agree - however they are portrayed very differently in the source material. The crow is a harbinger of death, evil and selfish. He searches the earth after the biblical flood and doesn't bother to let Noah know the waters have receded. In the middle ages, they believed the crows neglected their young and so on.

    The Raven on the other hand was considered differently, Odin has his Raven messengers, Bran the Blessed (Bran is welsh for Raven), Elijah is provided for by ravens and so on.

    Of course in the mythology there is enough vagueness that it's sometimes hard to tell when they are talking about ravens, or crows, or lumping them into the same basic bird, but for Tolkien it's pretty easy to distinguish:

    Crows lead to Crebain and are servants of Saruman, thus not appropriate to accompany free peoples.
    Ravens are noted for being able to speak and helping out the dwarves of Erebor.

    And something to add to the crebain: They aren't evil, they were servants of Radagast fulfilling Sarumans commands (As we all know Radagast doesn't suspect Saruman to be evil and offers his help/birds/crebain).
    Agreed, but at the time the story is set, they are working for Saruman (for whatever reason) and that distinguishes them clearly from ravens at this period in Middle Earth history. Evil or not, they aren't on our side!

    You don't want wolfpets, that's ok(I don't want wolfpets either), but don't say all wolves are evil without a clear evidence. There are only some indications, no evidence.
    Actually, the quote given by Louvre above is pretty conclusive that there are perfectly ordinary wolves. Gandalf states it so. I thought the point was already conceded.. *shrug*
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  12. #37
    Found the passage in the old thread.

    "Wolves were of old allied with the Dark Lord;[1] Morgoth bred the two greatest of their kind, Draugluin and Carcharoth, and Sauron was wont to take the form of a great Wolf. The lesser kinds were sometimes used as steeds by the Orcs.Wolf is also used as a short form of Werewolf. "

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatharil View Post
    Wolf is also used as a short form of Werewolf. "
    To be clear though, when we say "werewolf" in the context of Tolkien, we mean a wolf with an evil spirit within it, not some kind of man/wolf hybrid noted for being heavily affected by the full moon!
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  14. #39
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    I hold my hand up to having started the OT wolf part of the thread, which was very interesting, and again call for either improving what already exists or a dog. Said dog needs to be a proper animal, no chihuahuas. ME is basically NW Europe in some form of early middle ages so a dog suiatble to the era would be best. Mastiff, wolfhound or similar. Farmer Maggot has suitable dogs, indeed a quest for Maggot to get a trained whelp from one of his animals would be a nice little intro.
    Mithithil Ithryndi

  15. #40
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    Boar

    You know you are all thinking it...

    As far as not having the evil or attack on sight critters, I don't think there are any sabre cat models in the landscape that are yellow bar. Most of the bog lurkers aggro too. Lynxes, well you know about those, some attack at once and some give you a few seconds. Ravens, most attack on sight. Bears, c'mon.

    I would love to have an aggro deer at my command. I still say whoever devised these mobs should be slapped, We might as well be on the other side of it!

    So back to boar...

    Could have a slashing wound (slow run speed or bleed, but I like the slow run speed).
    YAS (yet another stun?)
    Small pet profile would be nice.
    Kinships: Fifth Star Vagabonds on Crickhollow (Dotswith); Random Access on Arkenstone (Dottiel)

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Inkfinger View Post
    I still want my stag. However, I was mostly hoping our dev would shed some light on if there are plans for a new pet
    I hope they would bring the Ox-bull pet, that was in the beta of RoI, as a mount-able pet.

  17. #42
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    I've seen some spirit boars running around with LMs, so I would guess that the boar is the next pet. One of its skills would be a charge + stun ability, which could count as a CC-related pet role.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aztec_Soul View Post
    I've seen some spirit boars running around with LMs, so I would guess that the boar is the next pet. One of its skills would be a charge + stun ability, which could count as a CC-related pet role.
    We already have two pets with a skill to stun .

    There's also an auroch , but those are only "skins" for the shiny ball .

    I hope they never make a boar pet .
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