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  1. #1

    Permission denied due to failure to pay upkeep.

    This really just still boggles my mind.

    Why would a game allow this to go on so long with so many active people clamoring for a house. Yet - 70 to 80% of the existing hoursing stock has this msg if you go ring the door bell.

    Why are these houses not repoed and put back on the market.

    More then once I've seen people offering 50 gold or more to buy a house. You can't tell me they are not in demand. You can't tell me someone that is offering 50 gold for a house is not pissed he can't buy one.


    I know I've beat this to death. But it just continues to astound me.

  2. #2
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    There are lots of "For Sale" deluxe houses - if you're not on Brandywine server. I do believe it is the only server experiencing any type of shortage.

  3. #3
    I agree. They should get rid of the whole upkeep garbage so it will no longer be a question.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by PhotoRob View Post
    I agree. They should get rid of the whole upkeep garbage so it will no longer be a question.
    The upkeep cost isn't the problem. It's the dumb, shortsighted rule that you can never be kicked out of a home once you own it even if you've left the game years ago with no intention of ever returning. Turbine needs to fix this instead of keeping their collective heads buried in the sand and ignoring the issue.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adder View Post
    The upkeep cost isn't the problem. It's the dumb, shortsighted rule that you can never be kicked out of a home once you own it even if you've left the game years ago with no intention of ever returning. Turbine needs to fix this instead of keeping their collective heads buried in the sand and ignoring the issue.
    The reason is historical. Some years ago a lot of players suddenly found themselves deployed to the Middle East, with (at that time) no way to connect to the game and pay their maintenance. Turbine therefore froze the foreclosure process and has never thawed it since.

    Whether or not they should set a limit to how long one can keep a house without paying maintenance, and if so what the cutoff time should be, have been hotly debated ever since. If Turbine ever come to a decision, I'm sure they'll let us know.
    Eruanne - Shards of Narsil-1 - Elendilmir -> Arkenstone

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by daadkey View Post
    There are lots of "For Sale" deluxe houses - if you're not on Brandywine server. I do believe it is the only server experiencing any type of shortage.
    Wrong! Even on less populated servers like Withywindle, a lot of my kin are complaining that there are no houses to be had.

  7. #7
    As was stated the no-repo was instituted primarily for the USA soldiers fighting wars overseas. They are still fighting there and are likely to be fighting for a long time to come (officially or unofficially).

    There have been many suggestions over the years about how to handle or change this. The "best" in my view was to give a "housing exchange token" to anyone wanting to change homes/homesteads.

    Currently if you "abandon" your home/kinhouse you lose all gold invested in it. The "housing exchange" token would allow you to give up you your house in one neighborhood and to use the exchange token to get another "equivalent" house in another neighborhood. Folks could leave "dead" housing and move into more lively housing. Neighborhoods with these newly vacant homes would be available for other players to move into. The housing that is locked would remain locked and available to anyone returning in the future.

    This of course has not happened.

    But until the RL wars end or we land in Mordor for Game End, the soldier's housing should remain locked. Yeah, even if they've died in the RL war, you don't get their house.
    Last edited by SabrielofLorien; Jun 23 2012 at 10:47 PM. Reason: typo
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  8. #8
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    Deluxe houses are definitely a rare breed on Brandywine. And yes, there are many abandoned houses, and not because they've gone off to war.

    I understand the reason behind locking the houses, but, as evidenced by these multiple threads, Turbine really needs to look into this. Maybe once the expansion has been out for a while they can at least LOOK at the problem and try to come up with a solution.

    I've gotta say though, I've never seen anyone offering 50g (or anything for that matter) for a deluxe house. I might just consider that offer if someone makes it to me.

  9. #9
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    There may be a ligit reason for being away from the game and not being able to pay the upkeep for housing for long peroids of time. The issue however is that many do not have ligit reasons. They have just quit the game for no better reason than it no longer holds any interest for them due to the new shiny game that has come out. It is these people that are inconvienencing many newer players who wish to purchase a house but can't. A new system needs to be employed to eliviate this delima.

    The best suggestion that I have read on these forums is the the one to offer a permanent storage of housing decorations in the eskrew broker if housing payments are not kept up. This way it frees up houses to be purchased by those who will maintian the property payments and at the same time not delete all the housing decorations that the previous owner had collected.

    This was the main reason why the current system being employed of once you purchase it the house will always be yours. Players had complained that they lost all their stuff that they had collected, or so is my understanding.
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  10. #10
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    Although that was the excuse used back then it does not really wash now. I do not know of anyone who has a tour of duty lasting 4 years or more and some of those homes have been in escrow for that long, especially on the original servers. Even I took over a year and a half off from LOTRO but I still managed to log in every 6 weeks, grind for a couple of hours to raise the coin, and pay rent on one guild house, two deluxe houses and 3 regular houses. (family members). It is not difficult. A long tour of duty in the US (according to the better half who was in the US forces) could be up to two years. Would it not then be prudent to recycle any home that has been abandoned for over 2 years? That would give at least some of the homes back.

    If Turbine was constantly opening new homes as the demand dictates the policy of escrow and never losing your home would make sense but they are not. If I were to leave the game permanently I would abandon my house first and give others the chance to own it. In fact, some members of my guild came from a game where we actually built our own homes, forges, etc. and when we left that game the whole town was abandoned and left for someone else.

    Every game has a turnover and very few people will play any game continuously for 4 years or more. If Turbine does not recycle houses more and more will be abandoned as people leave the game and move on. If new people are coming to a game expecting to be able to buy a house they will be disappointed and look elsewhere. New housing developments take server space and lots of it when you consider the storage and the amount of items that are kept. Server load for housing is already at a premium, try entering your guildhouse and you have to wait until everything "loads in" before you can move your character and that is with a high end computer.

    So they either invest in more server space for housing, recycle abandoned houses or they run the risk of losing new customers which they need to keep the game going as old players move on.
    [I]If you compare yourself with others,you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.[/I]
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  11. #11
    Join Date
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    We've been complaining about this for years in the Housing forum, to no avail. Our complaints and suggestions fall on deaf ears. Apparently, customers who aren't playing anymore and who won't contribute anything to the game, the community or to Turbine's coffers are more important than the ones that are actually HERE and who will do all those things.


    I've suggested the solution several times elsewhere, but here it is again.

    1. Change escrow so IT is permanent. Anything in the house that goes to escrow will remain there til claimed.
    2. ONE MONTH after your upkeep runs out, your house will be repossessed and put back on the market. All items in the house will go into permanent escrow. Additionally, you will gain a token for a new house of the same value as you had before.

    This way, houses that are actually abandoned will open up and NO ONE loses. Those that are away for reasons beyond their control, and who have no friends or kinmates who can pay the rent for them, will still have a token to reclaim a house. Those that actually left the game don't care, and those that are actually playing will have houses available.

    R.I.P NIDOR of Brandywine Server(1970-2012)

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Adder View Post
    The upkeep cost isn't the problem. It's the dumb, shortsighted rule that you can never be kicked out of a home once you own it even if you've left the game years ago with no intention of ever returning. Turbine needs to fix this instead of keeping their collective heads buried in the sand and ignoring the issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by djheydt View Post
    The reason is historical. Some years ago a lot of players suddenly found themselves deployed to the Middle East, with (at that time) no way to connect to the game and pay their maintenance. Turbine therefore froze the foreclosure process and has never thawed it since.

    Whether or not they should set a limit to how long one can keep a house without paying maintenance, and if so what the cutoff time should be, have been hotly debated ever since. If Turbine ever come to a decision, I'm sure they'll let us know.
    My response was to inform PhotoRob of the issue that the OP was addressing since he incorrectly assumed that the issue was about maintenance costs for housing. I tried to make it as short and non-combative as possible to avoid yet another long thread on the pros and cons of proposed solutions to the lack-of-housing issue. Apparently I didn't succeed so...

    I am well aware of the historical reasons for the removal of foreclosures. I am also well aware that Turbine applied a knee-jerk response without thinking it through enough to foresee what the consequences would be a few years down the road. They protected our troops' houses but at the same time allowed anyone leaving the game, for no matter how long and no matter the reason, to lock down a house in a feature with a finite supply. If there weren't a cap on the number of housing instances, this wouldn't be as big of an issue, but there is, and now that we have begun to reach critical mass, Turbine is still ignoring the issue like a little spoiled brat... "This is what you wanted and I gave it to you, so live with it. I'm not changing it again. So there."

    It's time for them to man-up and address some of these issues that they keep ignoring, especially ones like this that wouldn't be that hard to fix since all of the mechanics - i.e. escrow, foreclosure conditions, etc. - are already in the code. All that would need to be added is a housing token for a new home for that rare occurrence when someone does actually return to the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    As was stated the no-repo was instituted primarily for the USA soldiers fighting wars overseas. They are still fighting there and are likely to be fighting for a long time to come (officially or unofficially).

    There have been many suggestions over the years about how to handle or change this. The "best" in my view was to give a "housing exchange token" to anyone wanting to change homes/homesteads.

    Currently if you "abandon" your home/kinhouse you lose all gold invested in it. The "housing exchange" token would allow you to give up you your house in one neighborhood and to use the exchange token to get another "equivalent" house in another neighborhood. Folks could leave "dead" housing and move into more lively housing. Neighborhoods with these newly vacant homes would be available for other players to move into. The housing that is locked would remain locked and available to anyone returning in the future.

    This of course has not happened.

    But until the RL wars end or we land in Mordor for Game End, the soldier's housing should remain locked. Yeah, even if they've died in the RL war, you don't get their house.
    Most of our soldiers have come home with the ending of the Iraqi war. Those in Afghanistan still need their house and belongings protected here in game but even that war is going to be coming to an end in the near future. With the end of the Iraqi war, how many homes have you seen reopened by returning soldiers? Not many I'd wager. The fact of the matter is that there weren't that many players who left as soldiers, and those that did left as boys and girls and returned as men and women with a new look on life and I'm sure for most, playing MMOs was not at the top of their list of things to do once they returned home. Truth be told, most of those abandoned houses are simply players who have moved on and who will never return to this version of Middle Earth.

    The housing exchange token idea is kinda silly really. ALL housing neighborhoods are dead. Where have you ever seen a lively neighborhood? And it doesn't address the issue of servers running out of housing INSTANCES because they've reached the cap, and they've reached the cap because 80% or more of the houses are locked due to non-payment (which is a nice way of saying the owner is no longer playing the game). Keeping the housing locked with no foreclosures is only viable if the limit is removed from the number of housing instances available on each server. If that cap stays intact, then foreclosures MUST be reinstated with some set time, belongings going to permanent escrow, and a token for a new home if and when anyone decides to return (which, again, is highly unlikely if the past few years is any indication).

    Quote Originally Posted by Chellcn View Post
    Deluxe houses are definitely a rare breed on Brandywine. And yes, there are many abandoned houses, and not because they've gone off to war.

    I understand the reason behind locking the houses, but, as evidenced by these multiple threads, Turbine really needs to look into this. Maybe once the expansion has been out for a while they can at least LOOK at the problem and try to come up with a solution.

    I've gotta say though, I've never seen anyone offering 50g (or anything for that matter) for a deluxe house. I might just consider that offer if someone makes it to me.
    I had left the game for a bit over one year and returned late last summer. I had a house on Brandywine that was of course locked. I had to come up with well over 6 gold to unlock it and all of my characters were dirt poor. While I was in the process of raising the money to reuse my house, I received a mail from another player asking me if I would consider selling my home to him. Price was never discussed because I wasn't interested in selling but now I wonder just how much I could have gotten for that house (it is a deluxe btw).
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by podgie_bear View Post
    Wrong! Even on less populated servers like Withywindle, a lot of my kin are complaining that there are no houses to be had.
    I do not believe this statement.

    The problem that I see people complaining about is that they want a specific address. For example, I believe 2 Twinfall Place is one of the most popular Elf deluxes because it the one right next to the vendors. However, there is a deluxe way in the back. Must be 60 - 90 seconds from the neighborhood entrance via horse. Very few people want this deluxe. The vendors are not far from the exit.

    People will moan and groan because there the only elf deluxes left are in the back. Somebody has to buy all the deluxes before a new neighborhoods are spawned. I seen cases where there is only one or two Elf deluxes are on sale. I suspect there are a bunch of potential buyers playing the waiting game. The whole system gets hung.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamo View Post
    We've been complaining about this for years in the Housing forum, to no avail. Our complaints and suggestions fall on deaf ears. Apparently, customers who aren't playing anymore and who won't contribute anything to the game, the community or to Turbine's coffers are more important than the ones that are actually HERE and who will do all those things.
    You and some of the other forum posters have made some really good suggestions. Unfortunately, they all get hung on one simple issue:

    Turbine is not willing to allocate any resources to updating the housing system. Housing is a feature that gets taken off the shelf periodically talked about some. Housing gets the "Management stamp "Rejected - Lack of Resources". It goes back on the shelf with a tag that says revisit in three months (or whatever) to see if conditions have changed.

    There are number of features that are essentially unsupported, finished or have reached their final state. All we can do is talk about them. Hope (which seems futile) that the something positive will occur in the future.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    155
    Quote Originally Posted by Adder View Post
    My response was to inform PhotoRob of the issue that the OP was addressing since he incorrectly assumed that the issue was about maintenance costs for housing. I tried to make it as short and non-combative as possible to avoid yet another long thread on the pros and cons of proposed solutions to the lack-of-housing issue. Apparently I didn't succeed so...

    I am well aware of the historical reasons for the removal of foreclosures. I am also well aware that Turbine applied a knee-jerk response without thinking it through enough to foresee what the consequences would be a few years down the road. They protected our troops' houses but at the same time allowed anyone leaving the game, for no matter how long and no matter the reason, to lock down a house in a feature with a finite supply. If there weren't a cap on the number of housing instances, this wouldn't be as big of an issue, but there is, and now that we have begun to reach critical mass, Turbine is still ignoring the issue like a little spoiled brat... "This is what you wanted and I gave it to you, so live with it. I'm not changing it again. So there."

    It's time for them to man-up and address some of these issues that they keep ignoring, especially ones like this that wouldn't be that hard to fix since all of the mechanics - i.e. escrow, foreclosure conditions, etc. - are already in the code. All that would need to be added is a housing token for a new home for that rare occurrence when someone does actually return to the game.



    Most of our soldiers have come home with the ending of the Iraqi war. Those in Afghanistan still need their house and belongings protected here in game but even that war is going to be coming to an end in the near future. With the end of the Iraqi war, how many homes have you seen reopened by returning soldiers? Not many I'd wager. The fact of the matter is that there weren't that many players who left as soldiers, and those that did left as boys and girls and returned as men and women with a new look on life and I'm sure for most, playing MMOs was not at the top of their list of things to do once they returned home. Truth be told, most of those abandoned houses are simply players who have moved on and who will never return to this version of Middle Earth.

    The housing exchange token idea is kinda silly really. ALL housing neighborhoods are dead. Where have you ever seen a lively neighborhood? And it doesn't address the issue of servers running out of housing INSTANCES because they've reached the cap, and they've reached the cap because 80% or more of the houses are locked due to non-payment (which is a nice way of saying the owner is no longer playing the game). Keeping the housing locked with no foreclosures is only viable if the limit is removed from the number of housing instances available on each server. If that cap stays intact, then foreclosures MUST be reinstated with some set time, belongings going to permanent escrow, and a token for a new home if and when anyone decides to return (which, again, is highly unlikely if the past few years is any indication).



    I had left the game for a bit over one year and returned late last summer. I had a house on Brandywine that was of course locked. I had to come up with well over 6 gold to unlock it and all of my characters were dirt poor. While I was in the process of raising the money to reuse my house, I received a mail from another player asking me if I would consider selling my home to him. Price was never discussed because I wasn't interested in selling but now I wonder just how much I could have gotten for that house (it is a deluxe btw).
    My brother-in-law lost his left leg and his lower right arm and hand in Afghanistan, we lost our brother in Iraq, our neighbor's son was disabled in Afghanistan, our guildie's daughter died in Afghanistan, they played LOTRO, they have house in this game, We pay the upkeep on them. our family has paided that price.

    People here need to think about that too, some of our Military maybe trying to come back but their wounds (physical/mental/emotional) might be slowing them down.


    1) Build more neighborhoods in existing area.

    2) Turbine can send out e-mail from their account department to their real playerbase e-mail addys, respond in 1 months time to keep house, or house open up on market.

    3) Create new neighorhoods in new areas ex. Mirkwood, Lothlorien (store opportunity for money here)
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  16. Quote Originally Posted by Gandie2 View Post
    Why are these houses not repoed and put back on the market.
    They are not put back on the market because somebody owns them, whether they log in and pay the maintenance or not, the house is theirs, doesn't matter if someone else wants it or not, they can go buy a different house on every server but one.

    Maybe they should remove the "failure to pay upkeep" message then people wouldn't know if a house is locked by the owner or locked because they didn't pay their home owners dues.

    Edit: I am not saying they don't need to do something about the problem, I am just saying that there are other solutions besides going back on their word that your house will be there whenever you decide to return.
    Last edited by Unique; Jun 24 2012 at 04:15 PM.
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  17. #17
    Join Date
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    126
    I owned a standard house but had not used it in the 12 months that I had it so I let the payments slide...tried to abandon it but it would nto allow me to...then i logged into an old character and presto, that was the one i had purchased it with so i could now abandon it.

    I wonder how many others purchased ahouse on their first run through, switched to another classdeleted their old character and maybe now cannot abandon it?
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  18. Quote Originally Posted by Glamdrhel View Post
    I owned a standard house but had not used it in the 12 months that I had it so I let the payments slide...tried to abandon it but it would nto allow me to...then i logged into an old character and presto, that was the one i had purchased it with so i could now abandon it.

    I wonder how many others purchased ahouse on their first run through, switched to another classdeleted their old character and maybe now cannot abandon it?
    Actually if you delete the character that actually bought the house, the house and all it's contents will go poof with no way to recover anything, so keep that in mind when deleting old characters.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    I do not believe this statement.

    The problem that I see people complaining about is that they want a specific address. For example, I believe 2 Twinfall Place is one of the most popular Elf deluxes because it the one right next to the vendors. However, there is a deluxe way in the back. Must be 60 - 90 seconds from the neighborhood entrance via horse. Very few people want this deluxe. The vendors are not far from the exit.

    People will moan and groan because there the only elf deluxes left are in the back. Somebody has to buy all the deluxes before a new neighborhoods are spawned. I seen cases where there is only one or two Elf deluxes are on sale. I suspect there are a bunch of potential buyers playing the waiting game. The whole system gets hung.
    I know you've been around a heck of alot longer than I, but I have to disagree with you (unless of course you're answering regarding Withywindle specifically).

    There is absolutely nothing left on Brandywine. Well, a couple of days ago there were 2 deluxe houses left in the Dwarf homestead, but that was it.

    The problem is everyone wants the deluxe houses mostly because of the 2 chests. Find a way to stick another chest in a regular house and I'm sure there would be less complaints. Notice I said less, and not all, because there are those who want the deluxe for the extra decoration hooks. Which is another complaint altogether...lol

  20. #20
    There is another item that likely holds up changes to housing and that is all the stuff in the house does not necessarily belong to the house owner.

    Many houses/kin houses have items place by friends and alts that are BOA to them when acquired. I'm sure many have had to move a decoration that said "Return To Owner". Well sometimes that item cannot be recovered or has been discontinued from the game. The item was "donated or loaned" to the house owner and the house owner would like to have it move to the new location.

    I'm certain that determining how to get around the "Return to Owner" issue could be one hold up.

    How many will want to lose Nanu's Hiding Place or the Unwelcome Mat? Rare game items that often are loaned out and may belong to friends that no longer play. It might not be too bad to lose a 50lb Salmon but I'd rather not lose the items give to me by one of the first players I met in game 5 years ago and who no longer plays. Yes, it's sentimental but I remember my friend each time I see that item on the wall and I want that to go with me to a new house too.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  21. #21
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    Jun 2011
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    1,105
    Quote Originally Posted by podgie_bear View Post
    Wrong! Even on less populated servers like Withywindle, a lot of my kin are complaining that there are no houses to be had.
    I beg to differ, there's a fair few deluxes still around. True, they might not be THE house in THE neighbourhood in THE homestead you want (lakehouse in shire anyone?) but there's still many deluxe houses around.
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#008000]If it moves, kill it - Then look for more things to kill[/COLOR][/SIZE]

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    12,677
    Not dealing with this tells me that they don't think it makes much difference to their revenues, and companies which are struggling financially (as many are in this economy) will tend to manage short-term revenues carefully even if that means some important things linger undone. Where I work we have a large customer that's spending several million $$ on our systems throughout this year, and our #1 priority is to make them happy so we can land all that $$. If that weren't a consideration (or if $$ weren't so tight), I can guarantee we'd prioritize some things differently.

    In any case, Tiamo's suggestion is fine, except that it's way, way too short. People disappear and come back after trying another game (or simply wanting to experience a new content or an expansion) for 3, 6, or 12 months routinely, and there's no reason to pitch them all out of their homes. This problem took over 4 years to create, and they simply don't need to move the cutoff from "indefinitely" all the way back to "1 month". Two years would work fine, and would probably clear out nearly half of all abandoned homes. That's way more than enough to deal with the housing shortage.

    Khafar

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Chellcn View Post
    I know you've been around a heck of alot longer than I, but I have to disagree with you (unless of course you're answering regarding Withywindle specifically).
    My response is specific to Withywindle. It is applicable to other smaller servers like Meneldor.

    Brandywine has a shortage of house. Brandwine has been in the situation for a long time. From what I have read, Turbine put in an update that increased the number of neighborhoods. Players on Brandywine have bought all the newly deployed deluxes at this point. As far as I have read, Brandywine is the only server with this issue out of the 28? live servers.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    10,510
    Quote Originally Posted by Chellcn View Post
    The problem is everyone wants the deluxe houses mostly because of the 2 chests. Find a way to stick another chest in a regular house and I'm sure there would be less complaints. Notice I said less, and not all, because there are those who want the deluxe for the extra decoration hooks. Which is another complaint altogether...lol
    If small houses get a second chest, I want a third for my deluxe house (and kin houses should get a 4th).

    And to address the financial end...put the chest upgrades in the Store. How much would people be willing to pay (in TP) for another house chest?

    --W. H. Heydt

    Old Used Programmer

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Cornwall, UK
    Posts
    1,383
    Quote Originally Posted by Fralin View Post
    I beg to differ, there's a fair few deluxes still around. True, they might not be THE house in THE neighbourhood in THE homestead you want (lakehouse in shire anyone?) but there's still many deluxe houses around.
    Beg as much as you want, it doesn't alter the fact that the houses aren't there where they are needed. For example, I know of a couple of houses available in Elf lands, but nobody wants them. However, Bree and Shire houses are greatly in demand and there are not enough to go around. However, having Hobbits, Men and even Dwarves go live in Duillond is a croc of fertilizer and about as popular as riding horses inside Moria!

    And before anyone is stupid enough to suggest other races taking the Duillond houses if they are desperate, remember that this is a roleplaying game and that idea would work about as well as having Stalin or Hitler move into the Vatican!
    Last edited by podgie_bear; Jun 25 2012 at 11:54 AM.

 

 
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