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Thread: Captain Tanking

  1. #1

    Captain Tanking

    First of all, hello captains! I hit 75 on my Captain a few weeks ago, and I decided to go for a (off)Tanking captain. I'm aware it not a common path to take, but I thought it would be a bit of fun to see just how much I can Tank as a captain. (Hypothesis: everything upto and including orthanc tier 1; something which I hope to prove.)

    The build is shaping up nicely, and I'm at the point where I'm putting theory to practice, and started tanking content. So far I've tackled Fangorn's edge and the Limlight Prequests. Both without issue, it was interesting trying to pick up as many orcs as possible in the last part of FE without force taunting the trolls/ents.

    Here are my thoughts, I'd appreciate any more insight.

    The obvious issue is tanking multiple mobs, I do what I can with threatening shout, but that can only do so much. The RAT should focus on stuff I've not got aggro on, but I can use the force taunts to pull things of induction classes, and "in harms way" to reduce the damage people are taking from the strays.

    Does Routing cry have a straight threat component, or just the force taunt? I tend to keep it back to use as an emergency taunt to get aggro back or pick up adds quickly, but I'm not sure if I should be using it all the time to boost my total threat.

    When starting a fight I try to get into aggresive stance before hitting threatening shout, to get the most threat from it. I sometimes hit routing cry at the start to get everything if there are multiple mobs, which allows me to do this.

    In the fight I use noble mark on the RAT's target, keep aggresive stance up and hit threatening shout when it comes of cooldown. I have copious use of defensive strikes, and do the battle shout -->DS/PA --> LoE rotation as it comes up. With defeat responses I use SL for threat if I think I require it, otherwise rallying cry for heals.

    Traiting I go 5y2b, with captains hope and NFW as the blues. I drop Captains victory, Composure and Defiance from the yellows, thoughts? For legendaries IDOME, FB and LoM

    So anyone got thoughts?
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

  2. #2
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    Re: Captain Tanking

    Quote Originally Posted by 00CloughRN View Post
    Traiting I go 5y2b, with captains hope and NFW as the blues. I drop Captains victory, Composure and Defiance from the yellows, thoughts? For legendaries IDOME, FB and LoM
    I have to say, I'd not be going 2b. What tanking I've done (not tons, some 3 mans), I've had a pretty easy time keeping single target aggro with noble mark, aggressive stance, and not much more. But it was harder to keep AOE aggro, and I liked renewed voice so I can PA 1/3 more often (with PA targets >= 4, helps with the AOE aggro). Turn of the tide is also very cute with the ungated routing cry. However, NFW may be needed -- I found tanking was very power draining, and it is made worse if you shield brother someone as it lacks the power restore. I'm unclear on why you'd use FB if you are using Shield Brother, as you get the 100% reflection of SB anyway from the LOM capstone, and the extra group heals aren't your problem. If you are a Captain tanking, aggro and mitigations are your focus, not giving out heals or x-brother benefits...

  3. #3
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    Re: Captain Tanking

    I try to get into aggresive stance before hitting threatening shout, to get the most threat from it.
    I don't think it matters when you do this - and TS is faster, so I'd hit it first.

    Numbers made up:
    Code:
    Skill    RawThreat      Perceived Threat
    TS       50             50
    CA       60             60
    GW       70             77
    
    or .. 
    Skill    RawThreat      Perceived Threat
    CA       10             10
    GW       20             22
    TS       70             77
    Total threat after using those three skills is the same no matter the order (as long as you don't GW before CA..).
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  4. #4

    Re: Captain Tanking

    @Delgon - My arguments would be I don't just want to be a sub-standard Guardian, that means you need to replace you lesser personal survivability with something else. Hitting heals and brother-skills plugs that gap, your reducing the fellowship healing need from the healer, and making what you do need better. This in turn gives the healer more time to heal you. I take your point about Renewed voice and PA, I think it's a case of balance between survivability (from extra morale) to AOE aggro (from more pressing attacks), which I think depends on what exactly your doing. Yes Turn the Tide is Cute, but not nearly cute enough for me to unslot NFW.

    @Nakiami- Good shout. I was mistaken and thought it was +10% to threat generation, rather than perceived threat.
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

  5. #5
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    Re: Captain Tanking

    Quote Originally Posted by 00CloughRN View Post
    @Delgon - My arguments would be I don't just want to be a sub-standard Guardian, that means you need to replace you lesser personal survivability with something else.
    Hmmm. I think tanks job is to keep aggro and while doing that mitigate enough damage to make the healers job reasonable . Sacrificing either of those to try and do other things for the fellowship decreases your ability to tank. As a tank, a Captain will basically IMHO be a sub-standard Guardian/Warden, that is the nature of our class... What do you think your priorities are supposed to be as a tank?

  6. #6
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    Re: Captain Tanking

    I'm going to disagree with Delgon here by pointing out that the Fellowship-Brother Inspire is actually very important as an aggro tool. The exact threat numbers are all a bit mysterious, by design, but one thing that's clear is that healing threat is based off the amount of healing done, and by definition you heal more total morale with an fellowship heal than with a two-target heal.

    Of course, as a heal Inspire is pretty weak, so it's not going to snap anybody on to you the way Threatening Shout or one of our force taunts can, but it's still a source of steady AoE aggro, something we sorely lack otherwise.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
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  7. #7
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    Re: Captain Tanking

    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    I'm going to disagree with Delgon here by pointing out that the Fellowship-Brother Inspire is actually very important as an aggro tool. The exact threat numbers are all a bit mysterious, by design, but one thing that's clear is that healing threat is based off the amount of healing done, and by definition you heal more total morale with an fellowship heal than with a two-target heal.

    Of course, as a heal Inspire is pretty weak, so it's not going to snap anybody on to you the way Threatening Shout or one of our force taunts can, but it's still a source of steady AoE aggro, something we sorely lack otherwise.
    OK, if it is considered as an aggro tool, fine. I was thinking of it as a fellowship healing tool, which, IMHO, shouldn't be a top tank priority but rather a fringe benefit/nice to have thing.

  8. #8

    Re: Captain Tanking

    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    Hmmm. I think tanks job is to keep aggro and while doing that mitigate enough damage to make the healers job reasonable. Sacrificing either of those to try and do other things for the fellowship decreases your ability to tank. As a tank, a Captain will basically IMHO be a sub-standard Guardian/Warden, that is the nature of our class... What do you think your priorities are supposed to be as a tank?
    My argument wasn't that you should do other things that aren't contributing to your job as a tank. It was that you need to fill the gap left by lower survivability in a different way. (My understanding is) A guardian tanks by directing as much damage as possible onto himself, mitigating as much of that damage as possible. Any damage taken, be it what remains on him, or damage to the rest of the fellowship becomes the problem of the healer. Now you could play your captain in the same way, get aggro, mitigate damage, let healers heal (with some warden self healing for good measure). I made the statment to defend the use of fellowship brother.

    In short a captain tank replaces personal survivability with fellowship survivability, Which makes FB is an important tool.
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

  9. #9

    Re: Captain Tanking

    You can barely rely on Inspire fellowship hot to get you threat because first of all, it only seems to make threat when it actually heals lost morale and not full bars and second of all, the fellowship version of the hot is really weak.

  10. #10
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    Re: Captain Tanking

    Not sure what else we'd pick up over FB. SotD, for Oh-no-they're-on-the-healer moments?

    Red traits vs blue traits for the other two slots are just what y'all said, a balance between survivability and AoE aggro.
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  11. #11
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    Re: Captain Tanking

    Quote Originally Posted by 00CloughRN View Post
    First of all, hello captains! I hit 75 on my Captain a few weeks ago, and I decided to go for a (off)Tanking captain. I'm aware it not a common path to take, but I thought it would be a bit of fun to see just how much I can Tank as a captain. (Hypothesis: everything upto and including orthanc tier 1; something which I hope to prove.)

    The build is shaping up nicely, and I'm at the point where I'm putting theory to practice, and started tanking content. So far I've tackled Fangorn's edge and the Limlight Prequests. Both without issue, it was interesting trying to pick up as many orcs as possible in the last part of FE without force taunting the trolls/ents.

    Here are my thoughts, I'd appreciate any more insight.

    The obvious issue is tanking multiple mobs, I do what I can with threatening shout, but that can only do so much. The RAT should focus on stuff I've not got aggro on, but I can use the force taunts to pull things of induction classes, and "in harms way" to reduce the damage people are taking from the strays.

    Does Routing cry have a straight threat component, or just the force taunt? I tend to keep it back to use as an emergency taunt to get aggro back or pick up adds quickly, but I'm not sure if I should be using it all the time to boost my total threat.

    When starting a fight I try to get into aggresive stance before hitting threatening shout, to get the most threat from it. I sometimes hit routing cry at the start to get everything if there are multiple mobs, which allows me to do this.

    In the fight I use noble mark on the RAT's target, keep aggresive stance up and hit threatening shout when it comes of cooldown. I have copious use of defensive strikes, and do the battle shout -->DS/PA --> LoE rotation as it comes up. With defeat responses I use SL for threat if I think I require it, otherwise rallying cry for heals.

    Traiting I go 5y2b, with captains hope and NFW as the blues. I drop Captains victory, Composure and Defiance from the yellows, thoughts? For legendaries IDOME, FB and LoM

    So anyone got thoughts?
    Oh nice a Leader of Men Captain. I'd love to see some more of these around, so I wish you a lot of luck - and I only "hope" you don't get pressured into giving it up due to general prejudices.

    I've never really gave this traitline a serious attempt - but I have considered it before, and my only thoughts would be you may want to consider investing some traits or legacies into your Melee Skills Healing, since as a Leader of Men Captain you get to use the HoT from Inspire on yourself, and that sounds pretty useful. So that would be the only bit of unique advice I would offer and like to see you try out.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Jun 07 2012 at 01:19 PM.

  12. #12
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    Re: Captain Tanking

    Quote Originally Posted by Despotis View Post
    the fellowship version of the hot is really weak.
    Yes it is.

    I tried it out a long time ago and wasn't impressed with it - at all.

  13. #13
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    Re: Captain Tanking

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    You can do limited tanking with a LtC build - not all captain tanks are LoM, stop trying to pigeon-hole members of the community.
    ....

    First I never said "all captain tanks are LoM". I run instances with Lead the Charge Captains as my tank all of the time... so as ususal you are simply making stuff up and "mischaraterizing" things I say in an attempt to start another "flamewar".

    And I'm not "Pigeon-hole" anything...stop accusing me of that. It's weird. In fact I was doing the exact oppsite, and trying to encourage more variety lol

  14. #14
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    Re: Captain Tanking

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    You can do limited tanking with a LtC build - not all captain tanks are LoM, stop trying to pigeon-hole members of the community.
    Come on, was that really necessary? Are you just baiting him on purpose? OP is running LoM seeing as he mentioned being 5y.

    I already have one of you on ignore, and regret clicking the "View Post" buttons in this thread since you two are still at it. Do I have to ignore both of you to get rid of the inanity or can you just grow up?
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  15. #15
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    Re: Captain Tanking

    @OP:

    You're going to want to stack tactical mit. You can get some pretty nice tanking gear if you don't mind PvMPing a bit (ring set, and the Reinforced Kapwin set specifically - buy 65 and trade it for the 75 to make the commendations stretch further).

    There's also a pretty good Great River crafted necklace, and the martyr set jewelry is pretty useful because of the bubble it gives you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakiami View Post
    Come on, was that really necessary? Are you just baiting him on purpose? OP is running LoM seeing as he mentioned being 5y.

    I already have one of you on ignore, and regret clicking the "View Post" buttons in this thread since you two are still at it. Do I have to ignore both of you to get rid of the inanity or can you just grow up?
    Point.

    **Deletes post**
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  16. #16

    Re: Captain Tanking

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Oh nice a Leader of Men Captain. I'd love to see some more of these around, so I wish you a lot of luck - and I only "hope" you don't get pressured into giving it up due to general prejudices.

    I've never really gave this traitline a serious attempt - but I have considered it before, and my only thoughts would be you may want to consider investing some traits or legacies into your Melee Skills Healing, since as a Leader of Men Captain you get to use the HoT from Inspire on yourself, and that sounds pretty useful. So that would be the only bit of unique advice I would offer and like to see you try out.
    Hmm an interesting point, my emblem has Strength of Will Healing (obviously), Rallying cry Cooldown & Healing as majors and Grave Wound Cooldown, Shadows Lament Cooldown & Shield of Dúnedain Cooldown. I'm not quite sure what I'd replace, I think this is a good emblem for high defeat response fights, but Melee healing might be better in others. Clearly it would have been better to have 4 majors, but after 6 symbols I gave up and picked the best one I had.

    In other news I tanked Foundry T2 without much issue, trash was a little messy as there's a lot of it, and I forgot to turn 1 troll :s, but it largely went smoothly.
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

  17. #17
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    Re: Captain Tanking

    Quote Originally Posted by 00CloughRN View Post
    Hmm an interesting point, my emblem has Strength of Will Healing (obviously), Rallying cry Cooldown & Healing as majors and Grave Wound Cooldown, Shadows Lament Cooldown & Shield of Dúnedain Cooldown. I'm not quite sure what I'd replace, I think this is a good emblem for high defeat response fights, but Melee healing might be better in others. Clearly it would have been better to have 4 majors, but after 6 symbols I gave up and picked the best one I had.

    In other news I tanked Foundry T2 without much issue, trash was a little messy as there's a lot of it, and I forgot to turn 1 troll :s, but it largely went smoothly.
    Emblem I have dedicated for tanking is:
    Rally Cry Cooldown
    Vocal Skills Healing
    Melee Skills Healing
    Strength of Will Healing
    Muster Courage Cooldown (use SfW + NfW as the non-LoM traits)
    Grave Wound Cooldown
    +Vit Legacy (Used the RoR preorder to fix yet another failed SA, so I could focus on doing other things)

    For the Relics:
    T6 True Setting w/ Incoming Healing
    T8 Crit Defence
    T6 True Rune of the Two Trees
    T7 Uber Might Crafted

    Title:
    Tactical Defence + Evade

    Hopefully that helps =)
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  18. #18
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    Re: Captain Tanking

    FYI my cappy has only tanked Moria stuff, so can't offer higher level specifics, but Foundry boss? No problem, even our non-tank geared cappy's tank them. T1 Orthanc trash? No problem. We regularly have a cappy tank a F&F boss too. T2 Orthanc, I can't remember how much cappy tanking might have happened. *shrugs

    PS: Not sure why you suggest the RAT should follow what you haven't built threat on, typically the RAT follows the tank's target entirely to focus on what solid threat has been built on.



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  19. #19

    Re: Captain Tanking

    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    PS: Not sure why you suggest the RAT should follow what you haven't built threat on, typically the RAT follows the tank's target entirely to focus on what solid threat has been built on.
    I was thinking of minor trash, say an orc in the foundry. Our ranged taunt and the AOE taunt are the same skill, which means if a mob gets free, you either TS risking loosing the other mobs your currently tanking, run in there to pick it up potentially dragging a whole bunch of stuff with you, or you off tank and kill it.

    In an ideal situation you'd have aggro on everything, but if it does get free I think its better to off tank and kill rather than you trying to pick it up and risk loosing more adds, group makeup permitting.
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

  20. #20
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    Re: Captain Tanking

    Quote Originally Posted by 00CloughRN View Post
    Hmm an interesting point, my emblem has Strength of Will Healing (obviously), Rallying cry Cooldown & Healing as majors and Grave Wound Cooldown, Shadows Lament Cooldown & Shield of Dúnedain Cooldown. I'm not quite sure what I'd replace, I think this is a good emblem for high defeat response fights, but Melee healing might be better in others. Clearly it would have been better to have 4 majors, but after 6 symbols I gave up and picked the best one I had.

    In other news I tanked Foundry T2 without much issue, trash was a little messy as there's a lot of it, and I forgot to turn 1 troll :s, but it largely went smoothly.
    Sorry to hear that Clough. Going through 6 symbols and still no major on a reforge, that's gotta be pretty rough. That's what... 0 out of 18 attempts? I would be pissed lol

    With your luck it might be worth it for you to pre-order that expansion just for that Crystal of Rememberance thingy that lets you add an extra major legacy to your Legendary.

    Nice job on tanking Foundry Tier2 though. I've met a lot of actual tank classes like Guardians and Wardens who can struggle on that one, especially on that last fight. So well done.

  21. #21

    Re: Captain Tanking

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Sorry to hear that Clough. Going through 6 symbols and still no major on a reforge, that's gotta be pretty rough. That's what... 0 out of 18 attempts? I would be pissed lol

    With your luck it might be worth it for you to pre-order that expansion just for that Crystal of Rememberance thingy that lets you add an extra major legacy to your Legendary.
    Yeah the conspiracy theorist in me says they nerfed the major legacy reforge chance to make those crystals all the more desirable, but hey ho was probably just very unlucky. I have got the legendary edition, but the crystals don't seem to have a maximum level for use, so I think I'll hold onto them for my lv85 items rather than burning them now.
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

  22. #22
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    Re: Captain Tanking

    Quote Originally Posted by 00CloughRN View Post
    Yeah the conspiracy theorist in me says they nerfed the major legacy reforge chance to make those crystals all the more desirable, but hey ho was probably just very unlucky. I have got the legendary edition, but the crystals don't seem to have a maximum level for use, so I think I'll hold onto them for my lv85 items rather than burning them now.
    Guess that's not a bad idea - though they will be available later on to buy from the store. So if you do decide to go ahead and use it, just know you will be able to get another one later after you are 85.

  23. #23
    Yay, just tanked the first 3 wings of Orthanc, including tanking various trash, the Frost boss, and successfully tank swapped with our Guardian on Lightning. I force taunted Kalbak whenever they came up, as you can force taunt for about 30s out of 50s if you do it right, so you can keep both tanks shocks low enough.

    Gear still has a little way to go, I think it was a bit tricker than usual for our healers, but still I'm pretty chuffed.
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00CloughRN View Post
    Yay, just tanked the first 3 wings of Orthanc, including tanking various trash, the Frost boss, and successfully tank swapped with our Guardian on Lightning. I force taunted Kalbak whenever they came up, as you can force taunt for about 30s out of 50s if you do it right, so you can keep both tanks shocks low enough.

    Gear still has a little way to go, I think it was a bit tricker than usual for our healers, but still I'm pretty chuffed.
    T1 or T2?

    That's pretty outstanding regardless.

    /applause
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  25. #25
    T1. My alliance has had very little luck with T2 unfortunately.
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

 

 
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