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  1. #1

    We need to redefine the hunter - only how should we do it?

    I stole this idea when I saw the thread purpose of the hunter. I began thinking that a hunter now doesn't match its original description. While we do duel wield our melee is not going to save us because our damage is much too light to take on anything other than trash mobs. While saying we finish our targets up close and personal we cannot survive more than a few hits at best. So, how would we redefine the role of a hunter? I pose this question to the sisterhood and brotherhood of the bow. Once we define what we are now, maybe more importantly where should we go from there?



    I am adding this to my post please visit the General Discussion thread my post my not be there long, but at least some will see it.
    Last edited by Tinluen; Jun 06 2012 at 07:29 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: We need to redefine the hunter - only how should we do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    So, how would we redefine the role of a hunter?
    broken class
    Last edited by Theandil; Jun 06 2012 at 09:28 AM. Reason: quote add

  3. #3
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    Re: We need to redefine the hunter - only how should we do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Theandil View Post
    broken class
    That's the spirit, nothing like a constructive start... Shall we try and keep just one thread on the hunter forums positive? This would appear to be the perfect place to be constructive and creative.


    Back on topic, I would simply make the class THE dps daddy. Give us some tools to manage a little aggro, and make the class about thoughtful use of our single target DPS qualities. Bingo. Ranged attack that really matters in all raid situations.

  4. #4
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    Re: We need to redefine the hunter - only how should we do it?

    The main problems of the Hunter Player base:

    • Aggro Management
    • Survivability (Requires an 'Oh S**t' button)
    • A viable second role


    Aggro Management can be fixed in such a simple way - adjust the coding that details the 'aggro pips' for each skill so that each strike from the hunter has reduced aggro than it currently has. Otherwise if that takes too long, introduce a new Bow Chant that reduces aggro output by 40%, allowing Hunter's to pew pew their hearts out for 20 minutes.


    Survivability is something that would require a revamp of some old skills, or the introduction of new ones:
    Old Skill Revamp
    Desperate Flight
    Cool-down reduced to 10 minutes (Legacy reduces the Cool-down to 5 minutes)
    Now has two different distinct uses:
    • On use out of combat: Keeps the same current description
    • On use in-combat: Immediate duration lasts 20 seconds and provides the following:

    - Sets to 150% Run Speed
    - Immunity to Slows
    - Reduces incoming damage to 50% (Not to mention the Burglars Knives Out skill)
    - Cannot Evade or Parry

    New Skill Introduction
    Power of the Wild
    Induction: Immediate
    Duration: 20 seconds
    Cool-down: 300 seconds
    Description: Every 2 seconds for 20 seconds, your power is transferred into morale,
    - Each pip transfers 10% Power into Morale (15% with an edited Trait)
    - Reduces Skill Power costs by 30% for 20 seconds
    - Cannot be disarmed

    The Trait that would be edited would be 'Earthborn' since it is appropriate to the Healing aspect of the Hunter.


    For a second role, I know CC is certainly not it and I have no idea what else it could be. Maybe an emphasised AoE DPS role? Or a stealthy line second to the Burglar that allows a Hunter to Hunt?

  5. #5

    Re: We need to redefine the hunter - only how should we do it?

    Don't tell me no one read my awesome post! :O *horrified* *disgusted* *saddened*
    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-revamp-thread

  6. #6

    Re: We need to redefine the hunter - only how should we do it?

    Slap a -40% threat component on Precision stance

    Revamp Endurance into a literal CC and/or Survival Stance. Keep the 5% Parry, make it where it reduces the CD of CC skills, or extends their length, or provides more healing, or a bubble, or something.

    Fully revamp Trapper into more of a hybrid survival and CC line, where you don't have to slot 3 traits just for traps and it replaces a bunch of useless garbage with, yanno, useful stuff.

    Make the Legendary skills, yanno, Legendary?

    Scale up BotR

    Make Bard's Arrow better then the Minstrel's Fear

    Make Press Onward scaled up and remove the lengthy induction

    Do something with Rain of Thorns to make it seem more Legendary vs Herb Lore

    Buff Fleetness, Attack Duration anyone?

    Superbuff Explosive Arrow. Make it actually, you know, EXPLOSIVE. Put a hefty damage percentage on it, and make it stun say, five creatures in a FIVE meter radius from the target, affected by the AOE legacy. Keep the base 3min CD but make it a 1:30 with the Capstone. OMG I just gave people a reason to Capstone Yellow Line!

    Bleh, never gonna happen. It's why I'm playing Star Trek Online.

  7. #7
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    Re: We need to redefine the hunter - only how should we do it?

    I think the first draft of our last revision (this one) was meant to bring the class more in line with the description given, but it was met with such blind outrage that it was square-peg-round-holed into the half-***ed pile of gorilla donk we ended up with.

  8. #8

    Re: We need to redefine the hunter - only how should we do it?

    Some good thoughts here on how to spice up a Hunters life once more . I have three level 65+ Hunters and none of them have seen much action for months .

    Realistically, to get things back on track for most of us, all we need is some aggro control that actually works. I know that some posters here have said that they can manage their threat just fine but I have missed where they said how they managed it; so something to makes life easier for those of us that play a lot but are not very l33t would be fabulous.

    Almost everything else that is 'broken' with us we can live with ... or should I say that I could, as a non-Raider/non-PVP'er, for different people want different things from the class. After all, we are meant to be a super ranged DPS pincushioning machine and our secondary role is "Taxi!" :lol:.

    Some critical mitigation would be lovely as well mind you and a self heal that makes a big difference rather than being worse than a potion (again, that's only my own experience, others may get better return from our one melee heal ).

  9. #9

    Re: We need to redefine the hunter - only how should we do it?

    I love that some people are going into specifics, but in general where are hunters going? CWOOD posted the original idea that hunters hated. The suggested loss of the blue line is what got us here in the first place. What do hunters do well? Where do they shine, what can be changed to make them better, more useful, how can we let them adapt to a changing game? This is what I am looking for to start. Start basic.... we can move on from there. The hunter needs a foundation, so lets talk about the base or core of what a hunter is and should be.

    I will give a better description of my thoughts but this should maybe serve as a start:

    Red line - Solo, burst damage hunter sacrifices safety for massive DPS (increased threat even morale leaching or loss of evade/parry/block to do what it takes to put the mob down.


    Blue line - raiding/grouping line, hunters put out sustained DPS sacrificing some dps to ignore threat.


    Yellow line - hybrid melee/ranged line, hunters sacrifice ranged DPS for significant changes to melee damage and survival skills.


    Notice CC line is gone... hunters should have CC in any line since that is to be our secondary ability. This can be stronger in some lines due to bonuses than others, but CC should not be something we must use an entire line for.


    This is what I am looking for.. I will need to flesh out the lines once I get my thoughts together, but we need to go basic and build up. Strengthen the core of the class and then add the skills to make the character more adaptable. Once we get a basic agreement to the lines we move to the skills and traits that effect each line. Dropping or changing skills that do not fit, and placing those that do into the appropriate lines that we already have.


    Tydlamir
    Last edited by Tinluen; Jun 06 2012 at 08:01 PM.

  10. #10
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    Re: We need to redefine the hunter - only how should we do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eckenbrand View Post

    Make Bard's Arrow better then the Minstrel's Fear
    Or you can just stop calling it "Bard's Arrow" and make it improve the CD and effectiveness of Cry of the Predator. That would remove a redundant skill while maintaining functionality. Then, just to really get into the minutae, rename Heartseeker to Bard's Arrow.
    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  11. #11

    Re: We need to redefine the hunter - only how should we do it?

    Never mind people.... I will no longer waste my time or yours with threads complaining, or suggestions of how to fix a class when the bright spot the dev team wants to give us is a fellowship DF...... this is the level of teats on a bull, we know better than those who actually play the character BS that shows just how important we really are to the rest of the game.

    Tydalmir

  12. #12
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    Re: We need to redefine the hunter - only how should we do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    Never mind people.... I will no longer waste my time or yours with threads complaining, or suggestions of how to fix a class when the bright spot the dev team wants to give us is a fellowship DF...... this is the level of teats on a bull, we know better than those who actually play the character BS that shows just how important we really are to the rest of the game.

    Tydalmir
    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  13. #13
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    Re: We need to redefine the hunter - only how should we do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    I will no longer waste my time or yours with threads complaining, or suggestions of how to fix a class when the bright spot the dev team wants to give us is a fellowship DF...
    Oh, come on now... Fellowship-wide DF is going to be a veritable Benny Hill sketch of slapstick genius.

    Hunter: Pulled aggro. Let me just hit Beneath Notice...
    First raid party: *Bamf!*
    Second raid party: What the hell just happened?
    Mega-boss: *eats the second party*
    Hunter: Oh, ****...

  14. #14
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    Re: We need to redefine the hunter - only how should we do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWood View Post
    Oh, come on now... Fellowship-wide DF is going to be a veritable Benny Hill sketch of slapstick genius.

    Hunter: Pulled aggro. Let me just hit Beneath Notice...
    First raid party: *Bamf!*
    Second raid party: What the hell just happened?
    Mega-boss: *eats the second party*
    Hunter: Oh, ****...
    It really is the auto-wipe button we've been asking about for years.

    I'm just amused that after all these years the big "hunter breaker" is agro. Methinks too many people are playing to their DPS plugins.
    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  15. #15
    Remove the inductions on our CC skills for one. Bard's Arrow and Distracting shot should be instant. Absurd to think you can operate as a CC class when your primary CC is gated by inductions.

    EDIT: Damn it, didn't see how old the thread was...
    Last edited by PhantomPunkk; Aug 14 2012 at 08:43 PM.

  16. #16
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    Most of our problems stem from the mitigation and armour changes turning us into glass cannons. We never were glass cannons and I deeply resent Turbine changing the nature of the class I've given them hundreds of dollars playing. Before the changes we could make a decent fist of ranged off-tank.

    We could survive in melee long enough to finish off some pretty big stuff if we pulled. Our kin warden always said he didn't worry if I pulled anything as he knew I could handle it.

    Now it's likely that if I can't finish it off from range it's going to be biff-boff-dead for me in my new medium paper armour no matter how stacked mitigations are.

    As people have said - it comes down to survivability and aggro management. I'm not convinced the propsed modest changes will change things that much.

    IMHO the whole medium and light armour nerf needs a comprehensive rethink because I want the product I bought and invested in back.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helwryeth View Post

    Realistically, to get things back on track for most of us, all we need is some aggro control that actually works. I know that some posters here have said that they can manage their threat just fine but I have missed where they said how they managed it;
    Let me summarise:

    After epic amounts of handwaving the answers are always dressed variants of :

    Run with the best possible raid gear and a Super-Awesome Tank.
    Nerf your dps.

  18. #18
    Are you guys thinking what I'm thinking? A TRUE BOW AND BLADE WARRIOR!

    That's the ticket. Book it.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kongas View Post
    IMHO the whole medium and light armour nerf needs a comprehensive rethink because I want the product I bought and invested in back.
    Agreed.

  20. #20
    Can't Rep you again presently, Kongas - too soon since the last time says the board software .

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kongas View Post
    ... my new medium paper armour...
    im sorry sir... but it is no longer medium paper... it has been "re-adjusted"

    its is now tissue paper



    enjoy your game!

  22. #22
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    We do have a viable 2nd role and it's cc. The cc abilities the hunter has when fully traited are on the same lvl as brg/lm if not better. However, the main problem with this line is that you hardly ever really require CC. 3 and 6 mans don't need it and in a raid the lms and burgs will trait for it. The only thing it could be useful for is raid trash.

    So this is my suggestion:

    Red: stationary turret (highest dps when movement is not required)

    Blue: more flexible dps (regular movement will not hamper the dps of the line; downside is that if movement is not required your dps will be lower than red. Can be used for pvp, boss fights with lots of moving (think Durins Bane, Acid wing etc)

    Yellow: debuffing/buffing; I feel that our CC skills should be nerfed to allow for a full revamp. I would like to see a very active buff and debuff line here where the hunter constantly applies short buffs/debuffs that need to re-newed as part of the rotation. Dps will have to be adjusted accordingly.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brave.Sir.Robin View Post
    We do have a viable 2nd role and it's cc.
    No we don't. To begin with - it's not that impressive anyway and second - the sacrifice we have to make in terms of primary capabilities is enormously out of kilter. Third - the situations where a CC build hunter is useful can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Other clases are better at CC and better without sacrificing so much of their primary utility.

    The Yellow Line has never worked and the sooner Turbine accept that fact, roll CC capabilities into passives and give us some useful secondary role the better.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kongas View Post
    No we don't. To begin with - it's not that impressive anyway and second - the sacrifice we have to make in terms of primary capabilities is enormously out of kilter.
    This is claimed again and again and ofcourse there should be a sacrifice in dps if we want to focus on something else. Clear parces of a properly geared hunter who is going trapper would help the developers more instead. What is the exact percentage of dps that we loose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kongas View Post
    Third - the situations where a CC build hunter is useful can be counted on the fingers of one hand.
    CC is just useless in this game as I indicated and that is why I suggested to remove it. Doesn't make it less viable though but less usefull in most situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kongas View Post
    Other clases are better at CC
    This is simply not true. I think most people just don't use it enough to be good at it. We got a chain stun skill with 15 sec with legacy cd so potentially 2 targets chain stunned. Bards arrow to fear mobs for 20 secs, trap for 30 sec so a perma root, rain of thorns for a aoe root, cry and dazing blow (both not amazing but still cc to possibly fill the gap in the bards arrow cd. What is so horrible about these skills that you cannot permanently control at least 3 mobs with a huge group of mobs for 30 secs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kongas View Post
    and better without sacrificing so much of their primary utility.
    I don't know if you have played the other classes but there is a clear tradeoff for them aswell. A dps traited Lm will loose a lot of dps aswell when retraiting to CC. I haven't played the Burglar myself but their cc potential is way more limited than ours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kongas View Post
    The Yellow Line has never worked and the sooner Turbine accept that fact, roll CC capabilities into passives and give us some useful secondary role the better.
    Making the trapper tradeline free passives would make us really overpowered but as I explained I think our secondary role should be debuffing. Also I would prefer people to respond to my solution instead of just explaining their view on the problem again
    Last edited by Brave.Sir.Robin; Aug 17 2012 at 09:35 AM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brave.Sir.Robin View Post
    Making the trapper tradeline free passives would make us really overpowered but as I explained I think our secondary role should be debuffing.

    Also I would prefer people to respond to my solution instead of just explaining their view on the problem again
    1. I didn't purchase a debuff class I purchase a ranged dps/offtank with good melee suriviability.

    2. You're not the OP.

 

 
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