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  1. #1
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    Tolkien for dummies: Illurambar and the Wall of Night.

    Illurambar (or the Walls of the World) borded the entierty of Arda. Upon it were the Gates of Morning and the Door of Night.

    Now jump to the Fall of Numenor and we have the bending of the world. Its safe to assume that a lot of things changed. Ekkia probably turned into what we now know as the atmosphere and Illurambar was destroyed, no?

    Well thats what I get from various maps of Arda and sources from the web.



    http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Walls_of_the_World

    http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Door_of_Night



    Now, if the Door of Night stood on this Wall. How come other sources talk of the Wall of Night? The Wall of Night is where the Door of Night now stands after the bending of Arda and it borders Ea and the Void. Is that right?

    The whole point of this thread is to explain Dagor Dagorath. I'm not sure if Tolkien made it official or not but its there.

    Dagor Dagorath (or the final battle) is supposed to happen WAY in the future.

    "Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor and the rumour of his word was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of the Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon. But Eärendil shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day, Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eonwe, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Húrin and all Men be avenged. Thereafter shall Earth be broken and remade, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Eärendil shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palúrien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar."



    In other texts, Mr.Tolkein says that Elves have no part in it and it will be Men etc etc... but we know how he loves to change things, but lets ignore that now.



    This is my thesis: Illurambar was part of Arda before it was bent. During that time The Gates of Morning and the Door of Night stood on the Uttermost east and west of Arda. After it was bent, the Doors of Night and the Gates of Morning were moved onto the Wall of Night which now bordered Ea and the Void. Years late Morgoth breaks the Doors of Night and comes into Ea once more.

    It's a confusing concept for me anyway, and I hope I haven't confused you.
    "HA! Guybrush Threepwood! That's the stupidest name I've ever heard!" - "Hey! What's your name then? " - "Mancomb Seepgood."

  2. #2
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    Re: Tolkien for dummies: Illurambar and the Wall of Night.

    I wouldn't pay too much attention to the cosmological logistics of things like this, especially as the parts you're refering to are more in the realms of mythology. What happned to the Encircling Seas that Arda 'floated' on during the early days after the world was made round I'm not sure. There is also conflict in regards to exactly where Morgoth went to when he was thrust out of the Doors of Night. Some things seem to suggest he was thrust out of Ea altogether, into the Outer Void. Other things seem to suggest he was thrust into a different Void within Ea itself, but outside of Arda.
    Ultimately I think all that matters is he was thrust out of the way for a good long time, before one day managing to thrust his way back in.
    [b][color=lightblue]"[i]'Ai! ai!'[/i] wailed Legolas. [i]'A Rune-Keeper! A Rune-Keeper is come!'[/i]

    Gimli stared with wide eyes. [i]'Tolkien's Bane!'[/i] he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."[/color][/b]

  3. #3
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    Re: Tolkien for dummies: Illurambar and the Wall of Night.

    All this thrusting makes me think of family guy. Anyways, it's important for a little fan-fiction I'm working on, it's about the very event where Morgoth breaks the Doors of Night. I don't want to get the cosmology wrong or else I'd sound like a blathering idiot.
    "HA! Guybrush Threepwood! That's the stupidest name I've ever heard!" - "Hey! What's your name then? " - "Mancomb Seepgood."

  4. #4
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    Re: Tolkien for dummies: Illurambar and the Wall of Night.

    Quote Originally Posted by Floin View Post
    All this thrusting makes me think of family guy. Anyways, it's important for a little fan-fiction I'm working on, it's about the very event where Morgoth breaks the Doors of Night. I don't want to get the cosmology wrong or else I'd sound like a blathering idiot.
    Well I'd stick with a BolT interpretation:

    For 'tis said ere the Great end come Melko shall in some wise contrive a quarrel between Moon and Sun, and Ilsinor shall seek to follow Urwendi through the Gates, and when they are gone the Gates of both East and West will be destroyed, and Urwendi and Ilsinor shall be lost.

    As the Last Battle takes place in Valinor I'd just have the Doors of Night westwards beyond the Encircling Sea, as appears to be the case before the 'world was made round'. I don't think the making of the world round would have affected this anyway because Arda was set within the Encircling Seas and the Door of Night was seemingly west of those Seas, somewhere on the very edge of the world (or even of Ea, the Universe itself, if Morgoth was cast into the Outer Void which seems most likely to be the case).
    [b][color=lightblue]"[i]'Ai! ai!'[/i] wailed Legolas. [i]'A Rune-Keeper! A Rune-Keeper is come!'[/i]

    Gimli stared with wide eyes. [i]'Tolkien's Bane!'[/i] he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."[/color][/b]

  5. #5
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    Re: Tolkien for dummies: Illurambar and the Wall of Night.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath View Post
    Well I'd stick with a BolT interpretation:

    For 'tis said ere the Great end come Melko shall in some wise contrive a quarrel between Moon and Sun, and Ilsinor shall seek to follow Urwendi through the Gates, and when they are gone the Gates of both East and West will be destroyed, and Urwendi and Ilsinor shall be lost.

    As the Last Battle takes place in Valinor I'd just have the Doors of Night westwards beyond the Encircling Sea, as appears to be the case before the 'world was made round'. I don't think the making of the world round would have affected this anyway because Arda was set within the Encircling Seas and the Door of Night was seemingly west of those Seas, somewhere on the very edge of the world (or even of Ea, the Universe itself, if Morgoth was cast into the Outer Void which seems most likely to be the case).
    Thank you for your counsel Beleg :-)

    As for my conclusion, I feel that this subject is vauge enough to change just a little and be just as vauge, without breaching the lore. There are many interpirations and even Mr.Tolkien himself didn't develop this part of his mythology enough to get any straight answer :-)

    I was a bit torn in making that decision but your reply confirmed it :-)
    "HA! Guybrush Threepwood! That's the stupidest name I've ever heard!" - "Hey! What's your name then? " - "Mancomb Seepgood."

  6. #6
    Major necro-thread bump.

    So, I've got a question about just what the Walls of Night encircle. Do they encircle Arda, or Eä itself? It seems that the Walls encircle Arda, but certain other passages in the Silmarillion seem to contradict that.

    For instance, the end of the Silmarillion states that:

    But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Door of Night beyond the Walls of the World, into the Timeless Void; and a guard is set for ever on those walls, and Eärendil keeps watch upon the ramparts of the sky.
    This seems to imply that Morgoth was cast into the Void beyond Eä, for time still exists outside of Arda, and the places about it are not void. But, earlier in the same chapter, it is said that

    But [the Valar] took Vingilot, and hallowed it; and bore it away through Valinor to the uttermost rim of the world; and there it passed through the Door of Night and was lifted up even into the oceans of heaven.
    Here, it sounds like the Walls of Night only encircle Arda, protecting it from the uninhabitable spaces of Eä.

    So, which is it: Arda or Eä? Thoughts?

    The Éored of the West-Mark ~ Lore-accurate Rohirric Kinship on Landroval

  7. #7
    A simple solution is to remove the constraint of 3 spatial dimensions you are used to. You can have a round planet, Valinor shifted away from the surface you can see and feel, the encircling 'oceans', and all this encapsulated within a higher-dimension structure of the Walls of Night separating it from the outer Nothing. With the Gates of Night and Morning serving as high-dimension portals between areas of Ea or as exits from it, depending on the circumstance.
    Last edited by Egorvlad; Jun 12 2013 at 04:40 AM.

 

 

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