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  1. #5026
    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    Manegarm just said I was correct... Keeslaff will say I'm wrong whatever I say, same will Reapor.
    Why bring me into an argument about Creeps between Creeps, you have made it blatantly clear I have no right whatsoever to comment on Creepside as I dont have the experience, therefore I have nothing to say on the subject, leave your prejudice about me off the Forums when I have made no comment on it.
    I dont hug, I keep my distance, about 40m.

  2. #5027
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reapor View Post
    Why bring me into an argument about Creeps between Creeps, you have made it blatantly clear I have no right whatsoever to comment on Creepside as I dont have the experience, therefore I have nothing to say on the subject, leave your prejudice about me off the Forums when I have made no comment on it.
    I'm sorry for bringing you into an argument you had no part in. ^^

  3. #5028

    Rights and wrongs.

    Stoffi is right that ROI had a problem with balance creep to freep, ROR has a more fundamental problem with structure.

    Virel is right in his summary of the nature of ROR and his account corresponds with stoffi's structure problems.

    Stoffi is highly misguided to use creep population figures as a statistical argument.
    It is one of the least reliable measures on the black appendage website and as someone who used to work with stats years ago its pretty easy to highlight the flaws in the system.
    Measuring creep logins in a F2P system that does not count hours played, only logins, this data is corrupted by the number of alts logged, the number of new players who log in to check the game out, by streams of farmed clubbers, by dual boxed spy accounts and by those logging on after the action to reflip a map to farm comms once the freeps had left, and as Kees rightly pointed out, those who are bored with any new pve content towards the end of an update.
    Its just plain unreliable data. Don't base an argument on it.

    Squelcher was all excited after ROI came out and thought it was much better than it was, hence his quote; he posted as much and I recall telling him he would eat his words which he did.

    Ignoring the "gearing up period" after each update, in reality ROI was one of the worst periods in the history of creeps for lotro. IT was a total faceroll for freeps, a cakewalk. I can find plenty of quotes from freeps which say this and that in itself shows how extreme it had got. ROI was dire, it was bloomin awful. The only viable creep toon was the warg and creepside consisted of some die hard creeps getting mashed no matter what and lots of wargs running about picking off what they could. It was the lowest the moors has ever been, 1st half, 2nd half, period.

    ROR's problems are far more complex. The design changes have brought an era of RVR only zerg at fixed times as V implied, with massive inf/renown revenue and an incentive to keep doing this. Small scale and 1v1 is the most viable it has been since forever and yet it is almost non-existant. ROR is awful in many ways, but not because of toon balance.

    Currently the moors is numbers and healers v numbers and healers. What is different from the last era if that it did not matter how many numbers or healers the creeps had :P
    Last edited by Oldwiley; Feb 14 2013 at 06:20 PM.
    "Romper: You have the power to make EM less boring for yourself and everyone else. "
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  4. #5029
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    Stoffi is right that ROI had a problem with balance creep to freep, ROR has a more fundamental problem with structure.

    Virel is right in his summary of the nature of ROR and his account corresponds with stoffi's structure problems.

    Stoffi is highly misguided to use creep population figures as a statistical argument.
    It is one of the least reliable measures on the black appendage website and as someone who used to work with stats years ago its pretty easy to highlight the flaws in the system.
    Measuring creep logins in a F2P system that does not count hours played, only logins, this data is corrupted by the number of alts logged, the number of new players who log in to check the game out, by streams of farmed clubbers, by dual boxed spy accounts and by those logging on after the action to reflip a map to farm comms once the freeps had left, and as Kees rightly pointed out, those who are bored with any new pve content towards the end of an update.
    Its just plain unreliable data. Don't base an argument on it.

    Squelcher was all excited after ROI came out and thought it was much better than it was, hence his quote; he posted as much and I recall telling him he would eat his words which he did.

    Ignoring the "gearing up period" after each update, in reality ROI was one of the worst periods in the history of creeps for lotro. IT was a total faceroll for freeps, a cakewalk. I can find plenty of quotes from freeps which say this and that in itself shows how extreme it had got. ROI was dire, it was bloomin awful. The only viable creep toon was the warg and creepside consisted of some die hard creeps getting mashed no matter what and lots of wargs running about picking off what they could. It was the lowest the moors has ever been, 1st half, 2nd half, period.

    ROR's problems are far more complex. The design changes have brought an era of RVR only zerg at fixed times as V implied, with massive inf/renown revenue and an incentive to keep doing this. Small scale and 1v1 is the most viable it has been since forever and yet it is almost non-existant. ROR is awful in many ways, but not because of toon balance.

    Currently the moors is numbers and healers v numbers and healers. What is different from the last era if that it did not matter how many numbers or healers the creeps had :P

    Wise words all of it, except the part where you say I am wrong. Because you are wrong when you assume I go around putting weight only to statistics. I do not use statistics without anything else to back it up. If you scroll back a page, I have posted many arguments to support my interpretation of the stats.

    Hell, here they are again:

    1. Squelcher claimed I didn't play the 2nd half of RoI because that was the worst period ever. I showed that I did in fact play during that period, telling us that he remembers wrongly and indicating things were a bit better during the 2nd half, due to my return.

    2. Squelch then made a new claim, claiming the rise in the player base in the 2nd period of RoI was due to a warg influx. This is again wrong, as statistics show. All classes increased.

    3. My personal experience, both by playing and talking to people, suggests that the stats are correct.

    4. My personal experience with LOTRO before stats even were introduced makes me well fit to interpret the stats. I knew BEFORE stats ever were around which period was decent or not. The stats only support a claim I had.

    5. The mitigations bug during the first few months of RoI. We all remember it. We all remember how much that messed us all up. This strongly supports the statistics, and most of us will have some personal experience with this, connecting the mitigation bug with early roi and a bad period for lotro pvp.

    6. Freeps were forced into PvE gear with lower stats during late RoI, obviously weakening them in some way.

    7. U6 meant Spiders and Wargs were finally on par again, being extremely poor during the first half of RoI. Needless to say, when 2 classes which make out 40-45% of the creep population is boosted, creep side overall is boosted. This also indicates that creep side overall were stronger 2nd half of RoI.

    8. Fewer people are online because you often need some numbers to be able to fight at all. Much fewer people solo. This is one reason why numbers have dropped with RoR and continue to stay low, explaining the statistics.


    There is no doubt RoI was horrible, but RoI part 2 was slightly better than part 1. I made a poll to find out whether people thought Moria or RoI was the worst for creeps ever, but I was mostly ridiculed by people, also gilrainians, with comments like l2p, RoI is balanced - l2p, etc. Squelcher never ridicules, but him and most others thought I was dead wrong. Well, I was right, as I knew already back then. RoI was horrible. At that time, I also used statistics to show people I was right. Again people said I was wrong to do so. Again I was correct.

    Statistics CAN BE USED together with other arguments which explains the statistics. I believe I have done so today.

    And yes, Wiley, statistics are corrupted by people logging different alts to check stuff, spy accounts, multiboxing, people checking EM out, etc. But why would people suddenly start spying or checking many alts just as RoI part 2 started and then stop doing that when RoR came out and never do it again? They don't. One can assume that that kind of activity is stable and nothing during that period has given us reason to believe that stuff like that changed.


    Edit: Btw, solo play isn't more viable than ever. Group bonuses are too high and the map favours group play(in my eye at least). This means fewer solo ppl and solo play is not viable like it was before. It's now a game for the zerg babies and the nubs, and of course a majority of players who always preferred to raid up and have fun.
    Last edited by stoffi; Feb 14 2013 at 06:37 PM.

  5. #5030
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelious View Post
    One word, rubbish. There is absolutely no way that pvp was more balanced in RoI simply because there was no way to counter the OPness of freeps. Right now if creeps control 3-4 outposts, the gap between freeps and creeps is not that far apart.
    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    So, you agree with Viriel then?
    Thank you Stoff and for the quote too. I'll just quote it myself because original post is already deleted. No doubt by original poster. It's not that far from truth so we would like to keep it
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  6. #5031
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    Stoff I have too much Stella in me right now to coherently construct a counter-argument... but I'm still sober enough to maintain my certainty that RoI was a dire state for creeps.

    You might misunderstand me. RoR is not without its problems. Inf gain is too high for doing too little, balance is far less of an issue than are mechanics.

    RoI was worse overall worse in my opinion. Enjoying the game as a creep required effort, a lot of it, and determination.

    RoR has such problems as a massive infamy inflation. This inflation has the problem of increasing the creep active population by attracting a whole lot of easymoders. Most of whom will vanish when things get tough again. Creepside may become underpowered AND underpopulated at the same time.

    So I'm not saying that RoR doesn't have its problems...

  7. #5032
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    To sum up, in my opinion RoI was just bad for ballance. It could easily be fixed in a future expansion/update with making adjustments in some classes.

    RoR on the other hand, &&&&&& the whole system that has been on lotro for 5 years.

    Just take a toon that has been played only in RoR, and look at it's stats.

    People needed 3 years to get to r 12-13, and now we see spiders/defilers reaching that in 2 and a half months.

    This is just sad.
    ~Nimolas R11 Warden (Retired before RoR) (Snowbourn)

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  8. #5033
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon View Post
    To sum up, in my opinion RoI was just bad for ballance. It could easily be fixed in a future expansion/update with making adjustments in some classes.

    RoR on the other hand, &&&&&& the whole system that has been on lotro for 5 years.

    Just take a toon that has been played only in RoR, and look at it's stats.

    People needed 3 years to get to r 12-13, and now we see spiders/defilers reaching that in 2 and a half months.

    This is just sad.
    It's not sad, ROI greatest Creep update ever. Keep it going Devs.

  9. #5034
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    Stoff I have too much Stella in me right now to coherently construct a counter-argument... but I'm still sober enough to maintain my certainty that RoI was a dire state for creeps.

    You might misunderstand me. RoR is not without its problems. Inf gain is too high for doing too little, balance is far less of an issue than are mechanics.

    RoI was worse overall worse in my opinion. Enjoying the game as a creep required effort, a lot of it, and determination.

    RoR has such problems as a massive infamy inflation. This inflation has the problem of increasing the creep active population by attracting a whole lot of easymoders. Most of whom will vanish when things get tough again. Creepside may become underpowered AND underpopulated at the same time.

    So I'm not saying that RoR doesn't have its problems...

    Stella is pretty damn good, we used to have it on tap at the place I bounce, but my boss got a better deal with someone else. :-/

    Let's agree to this then. RoI was extremely unbalanced, I've said since 2011 that it was worse than Moria for creeps. That is ofc a matter of opinion as it's impossible to prove in any way.
    RoR has problems with mechanics, and I believe this is why we see a smaller player base with RoR than pre-RoR.


    I believe that if you fix some fundamental mechanics in EM, more people will PvP. As I've argued previously. I would. And I'm hoping for it.
    Last edited by stoffi; Feb 15 2013 at 04:26 AM.

  10. #5035
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    Why trashing on Turbine for mechanics? For me balance is way more important than mechanics in PvP, because people have the power to make fights and action more interesting no matter what turbine say. People can just choose to ignore backdoors or not hug so much to them, or group less, give a spawn to the other side in non raid situation just to keep the action up a bit, same with OPs etc

    Right now the non raid action is worst than in RoI, and in my opinion you can only blame us, the players, for that tbh.

    P.S: Raid vs Raids is way better and fun now than ever I'd say and I guess thats why a great majority of players just log in for that.
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  11. #5036
    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    I do not use statistics without anything else to back it up.

    Hell, here they are again:
    But its the stats you are arguing with that are flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    2. Squelch then made a new claim, claiming the rise in the player base in the 2nd period of RoI was due to a warg influx. This is again wrong, as statistics show. All classes increased.
    This is where stats will fail to do you justice. During open battle against the freeps during this period there was a high proportion of wargs. They made up the highest active portion of creeps during the main periods of action. Squelcher's observation is oddly true. The increase in the rest of the toons was primarily because once the creeps had logged or gone to sit at grams and there was no action it was highly fashionable at the time for freeps to mass log creeps to reflip the map. It happened almost every day. This was the era of where did all these creeps come from now the freeps have gone". Hence the stats do not reflect the reality on the ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    3. My personal experience, both by playing and talking to people, suggests that the stats are correct.
    OK. Thats your personal experience, which is solo warg, or pack warg centred on routes to catch lone or vulnerable players. Which is fine and in reality is the reason, lets face it, you hate ROR. Because wargs are proprtionally less powerful and the infamy spit on kills gives you less return than zergs, which now dominate the map so entirely its hard to find those lone or vulnerable freeps.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    4. My personal experience with LOTRO before stats even were introduced makes me well fit to interpret the stats. I knew BEFORE stats ever were around which period was decent or not. The stats only support a claim I had.
    Decent from your point of view, sure. Interpret what you see from your point of view, sure. Fact is one v one with most toons and small group fights are probably more balanced now than they ever have been. It does not follow because your playstyle and choice of toon offered a better proposition in ROI, that this era was any good for the moors as a whole. It can be your opinion, but the stats are not solid enough or detailed enough, or for that matter a large enough sample to be significant even when looking at basing a narrow point of view on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    5. The mitigations bug during the first few months of RoI. We all remember it. We all remember how much that messed us all up. This strongly supports the statistics, and most of us will have some personal experience with this, connecting the mitigation bug with early roi and a bad period for lotro pvp.
    The mitigation bug was horrible. It was more horrible when they fixed it and it made no difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    6. Freeps were forced into PvE gear with lower stats during late RoI, obviously weakening them in some way.
    :P uhuh. Freeps outhealed us, out dps'd us and could fight us with ease at 2:1 odds and still win.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    7. U6 meant Spiders and Wargs were finally on par again, being extremely poor during the first half of RoI. Needless to say, when 2 classes which make out 40-45% of the creep population is boosted, creep side overall is boosted. This also indicates that creep side overall were stronger 2nd half of RoI.
    Wargs were viable, not strong tbh. Spiders were nothing to shout about. The second half was - well see point 6.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    There is no doubt RoI was horrible, but RoI part 2 was slightly better than part 1.
    Nope ROI was horrible, late ROI was less horrible for wargs. Given I have all the toons and play solo, grouped and raided, I can say this with some conviction.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    Statistics CAN BE USED together with other arguments which explains the statistics. I believe I have done so today.

    And yes, Wiley, statistics are corrupted by people logging different alts to check stuff, spy accounts, multiboxing, people checking EM out, etc. But why would people suddenly start spying or checking many alts just as RoI part 2 started and then stop doing that when RoR came out and never do it again? They don't. One can assume that that kind of activity is stable and nothing during that period has given us reason to believe that stuff like that changed.
    Yup can see why you said so, but the data is poor. Hence I suggested using it was unwise. There was an increase in clubbing on gilrain late ROI. This was probably fueled by periods of non-action when creeps logged or sat at grams, but it was present. Yes there was a spy frenzy in late ROI, maybe you missed it; It was even done openly, and I as I pointed out, there was a huge fashion for switching post action to flip. This last point is the biggest factor, inflating actual creep numbers by more than a full raid on a regular basis, when there was no-one to fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    Edit: Btw, solo play isn't more viable than ever. Group bonuses are too high and the map favours group play(in my eye at least). This means fewer solo ppl and solo play is not viable like it was before. It's now a game for the zerg babies and the nubs, and of course a majority of players who always preferred to raid up and have fun.
    Yes solo play is more viable than ever. The issue with solo play is not balance, but structural. People could play solo more freely than ever at the moment, but given the increase in rank speed, everyone wants to raid zerg to rank 9 in a month instead, because that apparently means more.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    Let's agree to this then. RoI was extremely unbalanced, I've said since 2011 that it was worse than Moria for creeps. That is ofc a matter of opinion as it's impossible to prove in any way.
    RoR has problems with mechanics, and I believe this is why we see a smaller player base with RoR than pre-RoR.
    This ^ is true.
    Last edited by Oldwiley; Feb 15 2013 at 08:39 AM.
    "Romper: You have the power to make EM less boring for yourself and everyone else. "
    "Look for your lore. But do not trust to lore, it has forsaken these lands." - Eolore prince of Lorehan

  12. #5037
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    Squelcher's observation is oddly true.
    Uh huh.

  13. #5038
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    Yes solo play is more viable than ever. The issue with solo play is not balance, but structural. People could play solo more freely than ever at the moment, but given the increase in rank speed, everyone wants to raid zerg to rank 9 in a month instead, because that apparently means more.
    This. The few numbers of soloers in em is caused by greed. Still people tend to use excuses like "we are forced to raid up after RoR. It's the mecanics."
    Ofc you are forced to raid up when all your opponents are raided up all the time but thats because they are greedy too.

    Imo the stalker class feels stronger then it was in RoI(in 1vs1). Please let me taste some of it's potential :P
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  14. #5039
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    Quote Originally Posted by grapez View Post
    Please let me taste some of it's potential :P
    I'm planning to take my puppy out of his den soonish after Urg is half way to r10 .
    Though I cannot say I'll be much of a challenge, puppy has grown slow and fat coz the lack of exercise ;D
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  15. #5040
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    But its the stats you are arguing with that are flawed.


    This is where stats will fail to do you justice. During open battle against the freeps during this period there was a high proportion of wargs. They made up the highest active portion of creeps during the main periods of action. Squelcher's observation is oddly true. The increase in the rest of the toons was primarily because once the creeps had logged or gone to sit at grams and there was no action it was highly fashionable at the time for freeps to mass log creeps to reflip the map. It happened almost every day. This was the era of where did all these creeps come from now the freeps have gone". Hence the stats do not reflect the reality on the ground.


    No. What makes you think there were more wargs? The stats show NO increase in the warg population relative to other creep classes. If anything, it dropped slightly.

    You're making a claim without anything to back it up. And how you think Squelcher is correct here is beyond me. Creeps numbers increased 2nd half of RoI and the warg population was not responsible for that rise. In fact, you support my claim that more creeps played during the 2nd half, suggesting it was more attractive during this period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    OK. Thats your personal experience, which is solo warg, or pack warg centred on routes to catch lone or vulnerable players. Which is fine and in reality is the reason, lets face it, you hate ROR. Because wargs are proprtionally less powerful and the infamy spit on kills gives you less return than zergs, which now dominate the map so entirely its hard to find those lone or vulnerable freeps.
    Well, don't assume to know how I play, and that's where you go wrong. I know at all times how the main fight is, I check it all the time. You can't see me, I am usually solo, and I often hunt around the outskirts of the main fight, killing people who stray off or try to get to the fight. This gives me excellent insight in how the main fight is going. These repeated attempts on my credibility are starting to get annoying, I'm sick of writing the same thing over and over again.

    Wargs less powerful? Wouldn't know and I don't care. Not at all relevant to why I'm not playing. I hate RoR for a lot of reasons, they are all structural. Many agree with me according to the stats.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    Decent from your point of view, sure. Interpret what you see from your point of view, sure. Fact is one v one with most toons and small group fights are probably more balanced now than they ever have been. It does not follow because your playstyle and choice of toon offered a better proposition in ROI, that this era was any good for the moors as a whole. It can be your opinion, but the stats are not solid enough or detailed enough, or for that matter a large enough sample to be significant even when looking at basing a narrow point of view on them.
    Again, balance now is not relevant to why RoR is bad. RoI was very bad when it came to balance. The stats definitively suggest I am right.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    The mitigation bug was horrible. It was more horrible when they fixed it and it made no difference.
    Yes, I remember it very well, and this is hard evidence which strongly suggests that early RoI was worse than late RoI, this bug being one of the main reasons. Supporting my interpretation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    :P uhuh. Freeps outhealed us, out dps'd us and could fight us with ease at 2:1 odds and still win.
    Um.... Yes, I agree, what's your point here? I said freeps were weakened because of this, ALSO supporting my claim that it was easier to be a creep 2nd half of RoI. "Weakened" and "easier" are both relative terms, and I've already said plenty of times that all of RoI was horrible, meaning you should know not to interpret "weakened" and "easier" as "weak" and "easy".



    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    Wargs were viable, not strong tbh. Spiders were nothing to shout about. The second half was - well see point 6.
    I know, and I fought this battle several times. Perhaps you remember all the people screaming out about warg being op, whereas I countered and said Warg in RoI was the weakest in history, overall. A few classes, sure, we could take on and win against, but a whole lot of freep classes were invincible and near impossible to beat, an extremety not seen before or after RoI in the same extent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    Nope ROI was horrible, late ROI was less horrible for wargs. Given I have all the toons and play solo, grouped and raided, I can say this with some conviction.
    Again, where do you see me arguing that 2nd half of RoI was good for creeps? It was horrible, but less horrible than the 1st half.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    Yup can see why you said so, but the data is poor. Hence I suggested using it was unwise. There was an increase in clubbing on gilrain late ROI. This was probably fueled by periods of non-action when creeps logged or sat at grams, but it was present. Yes there was a spy frenzy in late ROI, maybe you missed it; It was even done openly, and I as I pointed out, there was a huge fashion for switching post action to flip. This last point is the biggest factor, inflating actual creep numbers by more than a full raid on a regular basis, when there was no-one to fight.
    The data alone are poor, but as you see, there are a lot of things backing them up. The rest of this paragraph is mere speculation. People flipped throughout RoI and people spied since forever. Unless you're suggesting that 50-60 spies which you can name decided on the very day of U6 that they would start spying, and then quit when RoR started. This is thin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    Yes solo play is more viable than ever. The issue with solo play is not balance, but structural. People could play solo more freely than ever at the moment, but given the increase in rank speed, everyone wants to raid zerg to rank 9 in a month instead, because that apparently means more.
    In theory, LOTRO is perfectly balanced and numbers on each side are 100% equal. There's nothing stopping us from fighting 25v25 all day long and dropping your LI if it's too powerful. We could have a system where we as a community regulate pvp numbers. Fantastic idea, eh? Balance is very viable according to this.


    No. Being naive and actual gameplay are two completely different things. Solo is NOT viable when people are not solo. If soloing was viable, I should be able to go out right now and have decent solo action meeting plenty of other soloers. Can I do that? No. So why are you saying soloing is very viable? We're not talking theory here, we're talking actual gameplay.
    BECAUSE everyone wants to zerg up, fewer people solo and soloing is NOT as viable as it used to be.




    Let's take away the statistics then and my own judgement then.

    1. Mitigations bug lasted for months 1st half RoI.
    2. Wargs and spiders were boosted 2nd half of RoI. This makes creeps side stronger overall.
    3. Freeps were weakened slightly due to PvP gear.
    4. Wargs were NOT responsible for the increase in the 2nd half.


    All these things combined strongly suggest that creeps had it easier during the 2nd half of RoI. Now, before people react to the term "easier" again, I am NOT claiming it wasn't horrible. It was.

    How can you argue against this? Your last post was filled with misunderstandings, where you misunderstood my use of some terms.


    If we look at a scale from 1 to 100 where 50 is balance and 100 is freeps super duper op invincible and 1 is creeps super duper invincible, I would rank RoI like this:


    1st half of RoI: 79
    2nd half of RoI: 70


    Now, those numbers can be discussed in and out, but the important thing is the relationship between them. That relationship can also be discussed, but it illustrates what I mean.



    Edit: Btw, the day SWTOR was launched, pvp numbers dropped noticeably. But you're suggesting that this is not connected at all, and that the player drop is perhaps due to hundreds of spies giving up spying on that very day? Or were the stats correct then and on the preceding day of every expansion, just not now? That doesn't sound credible.


    The stats ARE easy to read when you have experience and know what's happening around you. They jump up and down with events such as expansions and new games, and you would have to be pretty out there not to see the connection. If you want to read them in a different way, you are going against a norm, you're going against everything we already know.
    I don't mean to be rude to you, I'm sorry if it comes out that way here. Just pointing at how hopeless your logic is here.
    Last edited by stoffi; Feb 15 2013 at 11:36 AM.

  16. #5041
    Opinionating: last time can't be arsed anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    No. What makes you think there were more wargs? The stats show NO increase in the warg population relative to other creep classes. If anything, it dropped slightly.

    You're making a claim without anything to back it up. And how you think Squelcher is correct here is beyond me. Creeps numbers increased 2nd half of RoI and the warg population was not responsible for that rise. In fact, you support my claim that more creeps played during the 2nd half, suggesting it was more attractive during this period.
    Nope what I actually said was during pvp there were more wargs running about. I make this observation from seeing them and talking to them during the Pvp sessions. Post Pvp for the Pve flips lots of non-wargs bounced across. This was a daily occurance during the later half of ROI. So much so it became a regular joke "I wonder where all these creeps came from" during later ROI. None of ROI was remotely attractive. This was not creepside being more attractive.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    Well, don't assume to know how I play: ....I often hunt around the outskirts of the main fight, killing people who stray off or try to get to the fight. This gives me excellent insight in how the main fight is going. These repeated attempts on my credibility are starting to get annoying.... Not at all relevant to why I'm not playing. I hate RoR for a lot of reasons, they are all structural. Many agree with me according to the stats.
    They are pretty well founded assumptions based on having known you for a long time and taken note of how you play on freep and creep. Sure you are around the main fight often trying to so exactly what I said... Its not quite the same as being in the main fight all the time, but never the less I am amused you think I'm having a go at your credibility. Fact is by being a superwarg, you have a less rounded insight into the experience for all toons. Thats not a credibility issue, its just black and white. I also dislike ROR for all manner of reasons that are also structural, don't you realise that I'm one of the people who agrees with you, stats aside about a number of problems with ROR?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    Again, balance now is not relevant to why RoR is bad. RoI was very bad when it came to balance. The stats definitively suggest I am right.

    Yes, I remember it very well, and this is hard evidence which strongly suggests that early RoI was worse than late RoI, this bug being one of the main reasons. Supporting my interpretation.
    Having established that the data is poor we are falling into the realms of a statistician uses statistics in the same way a drunkard uses a lampost, for support rather than illumination.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    Um.... Yes, I agree, what's your point here?
    That ROI was abysmal throughout for all creep toons, but less so for wargs.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    I know, and I fought this battle several times. Perhaps you remember all the people screaming out about warg being op, whereas I countered and said Warg in RoI was the weakest in history, overall. A few classes, sure, we could take on and win against, but a whole lot of freep classes were invincible and near impossible to beat, an extremety not seen before or after RoI in the same extent.
    What the rest of the population was saying was that ROI was abysmal throughout for all creep toons, but less so for wargs.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    Again, where do you see me arguing that 2nd half of RoI was good for creeps? It was horrible, but less horrible than the 1st half.
    Deflection: You argued the 2nd half of ROI was better for creeps, I disagreed saying it was slightly better for wargs, but for the rest of creeps there was no significant difference at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    The data alone are poor, but as you see, there are a lot of things backing them up. The rest of this paragraph is mere speculation. People flipped throughout RoI and people spied since forever. Unless you're suggesting that 50-60 spies which you can name decided on the very day of U6 that they would start spying, and then quit when RoR started. This is thin.
    I stressed that flipping to creep from freep, post action was the major cause and this was most prevalent in later ROI and this would have heavily effected data. Dual boxing did increase during this period. You can if you wish assume that the raw data backs up what you say in contrast, but having accepted the data is poor, why is stats still part of this conversation?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    Solo is NOT viable when people are not solo. So why are you saying soloing is very viable? We're not talking theory here, we're talking actual gameplay.
    BECAUSE everyone wants to zerg up, fewer people solo and soloing is NOT as viable as it used to be.
    Semantics over the context of the word viable really Stoff. People want to max renown/infamy over a variety of fights, making it unviable. Its perfectly viable to do if people try on the rare occasions its happened this has been clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    Let's take away the statistics then and my own judgement then.

    1. Mitigations bug lasted for months 1st half RoI.
    2. Wargs and spiders were boosted 2nd half of RoI. This makes creeps side stronger overall.
    3. Freeps were weakened slightly due to PvP gear.
    4. Wargs were NOT responsible for the increase in the 2nd half.
    At last. Statistics aside: 1. Yup, 2. Marginal, the spider buff was almost irrelevant. 3. Seriously? :P 4. Nope they were not, it was mostly multiboxers and side flippers post Pvp action. The number of wargs during Pvp peak time had remained fairly high throughout ROI.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    I am NOT claiming it wasn't horrible. It was.
    Yes it was

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    Edit: Btw, the day SWTOR was launched, pvp numbers dropped noticeably. But you're suggesting that this is not connected at all, and that the player drop is perhaps due to hundreds of spies giving up spying on that very day? Or were the stats correct then and on the preceding day of every expansion, just not now? That doesn't sound credible.
    Sure game releases affect total player numbers, usually for a short burst of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    The stats ARE easy to read when you have experience and know what's happening around you. They jump up and down with events such as expansions and new games, and you would have to be pretty out there not to see the connection. If you want to read them in a different way, you are going against a norm, you're going against everything we already know.
    I don't mean to be rude to you, I'm sorry if it comes out that way here. Just pointing at how hopeless your logic is here.
    Aye its easy to read into stats what you want to see. I simply said that creep numbers is highly unrealiable as a statistic for a number of reasons and gave specifics of factors affecting them in ROI. But hey whatever floats your boat.
    "Romper: You have the power to make EM less boring for yourself and everyone else. "
    "Look for your lore. But do not trust to lore, it has forsaken these lands." - Eolore prince of Lorehan

  17. #5042
    What is this talk about PvMP population? According to the same stats what Stoffi is referring to, the population is almost at the same level than a year ago. Here's the direct link: http://dailystats.theblackappendage....=Gilrain&d=365 (the second chart "Gilrain Freeps/Creeps").

    Seems that the creep and freep population is slightly improving actually after the new year. Now I agree that the dailystats is not accurate at all, but since it is the only statistics, then so be it.

    Raid vs raid action is great when it is somewhat balanced (ie. no zerging and zugging you zuggers). Then again solo play is frustrating...at least with my burg. Seems I can't beat almost anyone (most of it is because of poor skills, other part is because burg feels like a paper atm). I have moar fun with my audacity 7 guardian.
    Kaiho R8 Spurgu Puliveivarit
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  18. #5043
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    Opinionating: last time can't be arsed anymore.


    Nope what I actually said was during pvp there were more wargs running about. I make this observation from seeing them and talking to them during the Pvp sessions. Post Pvp for the Pve flips lots of non-wargs bounced across. This was a daily occurance during the later half of ROI. So much so it became a regular joke "I wonder where all these creeps came from" during later ROI. None of ROI was remotely attractive. This was not creepside being more attractive.


    They are pretty well founded assumptions based on having known you for a long time and taken note of how you play on freep and creep. Sure you are around the main fight often trying to so exactly what I said... Its not quite the same as being in the main fight all the time, but never the less I am amused you think I'm having a go at your credibility. Fact is by being a superwarg, you have a less rounded insight into the experience for all toons. Thats not a credibility issue, its just black and white. I also dislike ROR for all manner of reasons that are also structural, don't you realise that I'm one of the people who agrees with you, stats aside about a number of problems with ROR?


    Having established that the data is poor we are falling into the realms of a statistician uses statistics in the same way a drunkard uses a lampost, for support rather than illumination.


    That ROI was abysmal throughout for all creep toons, but less so for wargs.


    What the rest of the population was saying was that ROI was abysmal throughout for all creep toons, but less so for wargs.


    Deflection: You argued the 2nd half of ROI was better for creeps, I disagreed saying it was slightly better for wargs, but for the rest of creeps there was no significant difference at all.


    I stressed that flipping to creep from freep, post action was the major cause and this was most prevalent in later ROI and this would have heavily effected data. Dual boxing did increase during this period. You can if you wish assume that the raw data backs up what you say in contrast, but having accepted the data is poor, why is stats still part of this conversation?


    Semantics over the context of the word viable really Stoff. People want to max renown/infamy over a variety of fights, making it unviable. Its perfectly viable to do if people try on the rare occasions its happened this has been clear.


    At last. Statistics aside: 1. Yup, 2. Marginal, the spider buff was almost irrelevant. 3. Seriously? :P 4. Nope they were not, it was mostly multiboxers and side flippers post Pvp action. The number of wargs during Pvp peak time had remained fairly high throughout ROI.


    Yes it was


    Sure game releases affect total player numbers, usually for a short burst of time.



    Aye its easy to read into stats what you want to see. I simply said that creep numbers is highly unrealiable as a statistic for a number of reasons and gave specifics of factors affecting them in ROI. But hey whatever floats your boat.


    Well, all you and Squelcher seem to be saying is that you THINK this and that, whilst me THINKING this and that is not relevant because.... How is it that your opinions, which contradict a lot of indications I've shown, are more worth than my opinions, which are backed by those same indications that go against you?


    It's a very flawed logic, especially seeing how extremely wrong Squelcher was the last time he THOUGHT something and my thoughts were supposedly wrong. It turned out I was right. That in itself gives my analytic skills an extra edge compared to Squelcher. Also, I'm a very analytic person, I am a guy who often sees the bigger picture, connecting things that other people often don't see, on the cost of details where other people might be better. My current MA involves a lot of statistics and analysis on several levels. Not mathematical statistics though.

    Also, statistics are good for understanding OTHER periods, just not the periods I'm talking about...


    LOTRO PvP ATTRACTIVITY affects how many players play. That is the one factor which is the most crucial for those statistics. There are other factors, yes, but that factor is the most important one. It is quite handy for you and Squelcher to claim that this does suddenly not apply any more... You are speculating about multiboxers and spies and the whole lot, but what made multiboxers and spies appear on the very day of U6? Early RoI saw just as much multiboxing as late RoI, it was a general complaint in this very thread throughout the period. Multiboxing was a problem throughout the entire period, and therefore does not explain the rise in numbers in RoI part 2.


    Also, having spiders and wargs boosted along with a slight nerf to freeps, AND the mitigations bug gone, IS going to have an impact on balance. It is absurd to claim anything else. Ofc boosting someone will affect the balance, it's obvious to any 3 year old who wants a biiiig thing to help him get a better effect.

    Are you indeed claiming that these things did not slightly change the balance? That wargs boosted and spiders slightly boosted, consisting of 40% of the creep population, did not affect creeps overall in any way? Even if all wargs ALL those wargs stayed far away from the fight and never ever helped another creep, creep side could still be said to have been boosted.

    And the mitigations bug gone, are you honestly saying that this did not help every creep playing in RoI? Making creeps stronger?
    And that slight nerf to freeps, even if it was only say 1%, it combines with the other stuff I've presented.

    I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that this combined is something even a 3 year old would agree with me in that boosted creep side overall to a small extent in the 2nd part of RoI. It goes against all logic claiming a boost to one side and a slight nerf to one side will NERF the boosted side and BOOST the "nerfed" side, like Squelcher is claiming.

    Then add my judgement and experience, then add statistics, and you have a powerful combination.

    Obviously, we disagree, but 1 or 2 years from now, I believe history will tell us who was right. It's a common thing that people seem feel a need to disagree with me, but Turbine and time shows me right, like when people told me off for saying warg was weak early RoI. Most people disagreed, I made a thread about spiders and wargs where I got slagged off. Turbine agreed with me. I said RoI was horrible, people told me off. When will people stop disagreeing with me when I am presenting a logical explanation?
    Last edited by stoffi; Feb 15 2013 at 02:34 PM.

  19. #5044
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sipi View Post
    What is this talk about PvMP population? According to the same stats what Stoffi is referring to, the population is almost at the same level than a year ago. Here's the direct link: http://dailystats.theblackappendage....=Gilrain&d=365 (the second chart "Gilrain Freeps/Creeps").

    Seems that the creep and freep population is slightly improving actually after the new year. Now I agree that the dailystats is not accurate at all, but since it is the only statistics, then so be it.

    Raid vs raid action is great when it is somewhat balanced (ie. no zerging and zugging you zuggers). Then again solo play is frustrating...at least with my burg. Seems I can't beat almost anyone (most of it is because of poor skills, other part is because burg feels like a paper atm). I have moar fun with my audacity 7 guardian.
    Well, that is my point. The population is the same as 1 year ago, during early RoI when things were really bad.


    The freep population was higher during RoI 2 compared to now, and slightly higher than RoI 1, how will Squelcher and Wiley explain that? Creeps spying? That too supports my claim, that PvP was more attractive during RoI 2 than both now and RoI 1.

  20. #5045
    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    Well, that is my point. The population is the same as 1 year ago, during early RoI when things were really bad.


    The freep population was higher during RoI 2 compared to now, and slightly higher than RoI 1, how will Squelcher and Wiley explain that? Creeps spying? That too supports my claim, that PvP was more attractive during RoI 2 than both now and RoI 1.
    By referring you to the opening line of my last post.
    "Romper: You have the power to make EM less boring for yourself and everyone else. "
    "Look for your lore. But do not trust to lore, it has forsaken these lands." - Eolore prince of Lorehan

  21. #5046
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    Searching through the forum, I found that Wiley is correct about keep flipping, and I'm wrong. It started in update 2, I can't find any complaints about keep flipping before U6 was released in March 2012. One argument supporting his case.


    There is a mysterious drop in creep numbers late April. What could have happened at that time?


    As far as I remember, keep flipping became less of a problem throughout the period. Despite this, creep numbers do not drop. An argument against the keep flipping theory.

  22. #5047
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    By referring you to the opening line of my last post.

    Which is wrong. I refer you to this link, where you can see that warg numbers are stable going from RoI 1 to RoI 2, but warg inf gain took a leap along with a few other creep classes, such as BA and spider. Are you going to dismiss that?


    http://dailystats.theblackappendage....=Gilrain&d=365


    Warg numbers did not increase with RoI 2, only their inf gain.
    Last edited by stoffi; Feb 15 2013 at 02:53 PM.

  23. #5048
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    Opinionating: last time can't be arsed anymore.
    This was the opening line of my last post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoffi View Post
    Then add my judgement and experience, then add statistics, and you have a powerful combination.
    Using some of that power to spot the obvious there?
    "Romper: You have the power to make EM less boring for yourself and everyone else. "
    "Look for your lore. But do not trust to lore, it has forsaken these lands." - Eolore prince of Lorehan

  24. #5049
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    Stoff it is inappropriate to put myself and Wiley in the same bracket. We both disagree with you but on different levels, and I admit that I cannot rival his skills of debate on such subjects as this.

    But my opinion of RoI was not formed upon thought, but on observations. My words in early RoI were a jump to a conclusion which occurred as RoI was the first time in my experience that creeps had gotten any kind of significant update. I will never make that mistake again and have been skeptical of RoR since its release, but, again, through observation I believe it to be an overall improvement on RoI.

  25. #5050
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    Hello guys its been a while ... looks like everyone is doing fine so far (lets hope Ret doesnt read this reply ) ) anyway i just came here on gil forum to see how is everyone doing :P btw most of the ppl transfered/ create a new creep on another server cuz they got bored of freeps sitting all day in keeps... anway this isnt the reason i came:P just stoped to say Hello to everyone and i will be back in half year on gilrain maybe the action will improve by then :P (Selecteed)-(Subug)

    PS: Jure i'm waiting for u on Snowbourn hehe its kinda booring whitout u here.... but atleast there is nobody like Ret and Vani to brake ppl nervs all day long
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2921e0100002df346/signature.png]Lazylegs[/charsig]
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