Stoffi is right that ROI had a problem with balance creep to freep, ROR has a more fundamental problem with structure.
Virel is right in his summary of the nature of ROR and his account corresponds with stoffi's structure problems.
Stoffi is highly misguided to use creep population figures as a statistical argument.
It is one of the least reliable measures on the black appendage website and as someone who used to work with stats years ago its pretty easy to highlight the flaws in the system.
Measuring creep logins in a F2P system that does not count hours played, only logins, this data is corrupted by the number of alts logged, the number of new players who log in to check the game out, by streams of farmed clubbers, by dual boxed spy accounts and by those logging on after the action to reflip a map to farm comms once the freeps had left, and as Kees rightly pointed out, those who are bored with any new pve content towards the end of an update.
Its just plain unreliable data. Don't base an argument on it.
Squelcher was all excited after ROI came out and thought it was much better than it was, hence his quote; he posted as much and I recall telling him he would eat his words which he did.
Ignoring the "gearing up period" after each update, in reality ROI was one of the worst periods in the history of creeps for lotro. IT was a total faceroll for freeps, a cakewalk. I can find plenty of quotes from freeps which say this and that in itself shows how extreme it had got. ROI was dire, it was bloomin awful. The only viable creep toon was the warg and creepside consisted of some die hard creeps getting mashed no matter what and lots of wargs running about picking off what they could. It was the lowest the moors has ever been, 1st half, 2nd half, period.
ROR's problems are far more complex. The design changes have brought an era of RVR only zerg at fixed times as V implied, with massive inf/renown revenue and an incentive to keep doing this. Small scale and 1v1 is the most viable it has been since forever and yet it is almost non-existant. ROR is awful in many ways, but not because of toon balance.
Currently the moors is numbers and healers v numbers and healers. What is different from the last era if that it did not matter how many numbers or healers the creeps had :P
Last edited by Oldwiley; Feb 14 2013 at 06:20 PM.
Wise words all of it, except the part where you say I am wrong. Because you are wrong when you assume I go around putting weight only to statistics. I do not use statistics without anything else to back it up. If you scroll back a page, I have posted many arguments to support my interpretation of the stats.
Hell, here they are again:
1. Squelcher claimed I didn't play the 2nd half of RoI because that was the worst period ever. I showed that I did in fact play during that period, telling us that he remembers wrongly and indicating things were a bit better during the 2nd half, due to my return.
2. Squelch then made a new claim, claiming the rise in the player base in the 2nd period of RoI was due to a warg influx. This is again wrong, as statistics show. All classes increased.
3. My personal experience, both by playing and talking to people, suggests that the stats are correct.
4. My personal experience with LOTRO before stats even were introduced makes me well fit to interpret the stats. I knew BEFORE stats ever were around which period was decent or not. The stats only support a claim I had.
5. The mitigations bug during the first few months of RoI. We all remember it. We all remember how much that messed us all up. This strongly supports the statistics, and most of us will have some personal experience with this, connecting the mitigation bug with early roi and a bad period for lotro pvp.
6. Freeps were forced into PvE gear with lower stats during late RoI, obviously weakening them in some way.
7. U6 meant Spiders and Wargs were finally on par again, being extremely poor during the first half of RoI. Needless to say, when 2 classes which make out 40-45% of the creep population is boosted, creep side overall is boosted. This also indicates that creep side overall were stronger 2nd half of RoI.
8. Fewer people are online because you often need some numbers to be able to fight at all. Much fewer people solo. This is one reason why numbers have dropped with RoR and continue to stay low, explaining the statistics.
There is no doubt RoI was horrible, but RoI part 2 was slightly better than part 1. I made a poll to find out whether people thought Moria or RoI was the worst for creeps ever, but I was mostly ridiculed by people, also gilrainians, with comments like l2p, RoI is balanced - l2p, etc. Squelcher never ridicules, but him and most others thought I was dead wrong. Well, I was right, as I knew already back then. RoI was horrible. At that time, I also used statistics to show people I was right. Again people said I was wrong to do so. Again I was correct.
Statistics CAN BE USED together with other arguments which explains the statistics. I believe I have done so today.
And yes, Wiley, statistics are corrupted by people logging different alts to check stuff, spy accounts, multiboxing, people checking EM out, etc. But why would people suddenly start spying or checking many alts just as RoI part 2 started and then stop doing that when RoR came out and never do it again? They don't. One can assume that that kind of activity is stable and nothing during that period has given us reason to believe that stuff like that changed.
Edit: Btw, solo play isn't more viable than ever. Group bonuses are too high and the map favours group play(in my eye at least). This means fewer solo ppl and solo play is not viable like it was before. It's now a game for the zerg babies and the nubs, and of course a majority of players who always preferred to raid up and have fun.
Last edited by stoffi; Feb 14 2013 at 06:37 PM.
Stoff I have too much Stella in me right now to coherently construct a counter-argument... but I'm still sober enough to maintain my certainty that RoI was a dire state for creeps.
You might misunderstand me. RoR is not without its problems. Inf gain is too high for doing too little, balance is far less of an issue than are mechanics.
RoI was worse overall worse in my opinion. Enjoying the game as a creep required effort, a lot of it, and determination.
RoR has such problems as a massive infamy inflation. This inflation has the problem of increasing the creep active population by attracting a whole lot of easymoders. Most of whom will vanish when things get tough again. Creepside may become underpowered AND underpopulated at the same time.
So I'm not saying that RoR doesn't have its problems...
To sum up, in my opinion RoI was just bad for ballance. It could easily be fixed in a future expansion/update with making adjustments in some classes.
RoR on the other hand, &&&&&& the whole system that has been on lotro for 5 years.
Just take a toon that has been played only in RoR, and look at it's stats.
People needed 3 years to get to r 12-13, and now we see spiders/defilers reaching that in 2 and a half months.
This is just sad.
Stella is pretty damn good, we used to have it on tap at the place I bounce, but my boss got a better deal with someone else. :-/
Let's agree to this then. RoI was extremely unbalanced, I've said since 2011 that it was worse than Moria for creeps. That is ofc a matter of opinion as it's impossible to prove in any way.
RoR has problems with mechanics, and I believe this is why we see a smaller player base with RoR than pre-RoR.
I believe that if you fix some fundamental mechanics in EM, more people will PvP. As I've argued previously. I would. And I'm hoping for it.
Last edited by stoffi; Feb 15 2013 at 04:26 AM.
Why trashing on Turbine for mechanics? For me balance is way more important than mechanics in PvP, because people have the power to make fights and action more interesting no matter what turbine say. People can just choose to ignore backdoors or not hug so much to them, or group less, give a spawn to the other side in non raid situation just to keep the action up a bit, same with OPs etc
Right now the non raid action is worst than in RoI, and in my opinion you can only blame us, the players, for that tbh.
P.S: Raid vs Raids is way better and fun now than ever I'd say and I guess thats why a great majority of players just log in for that.
Last edited by Oldwiley; Feb 15 2013 at 08:39 AM.
Ofc you are forced to raid up when all your opponents are raided up all the time but thats because they are greedy too.
Imo the stalker class feels stronger then it was in RoI(in 1vs1). Please let me taste some of it's potential :P
No. What makes you think there were more wargs? The stats show NO increase in the warg population relative to other creep classes. If anything, it dropped slightly.
You're making a claim without anything to back it up. And how you think Squelcher is correct here is beyond me. Creeps numbers increased 2nd half of RoI and the warg population was not responsible for that rise. In fact, you support my claim that more creeps played during the 2nd half, suggesting it was more attractive during this period.
Wargs less powerful? Wouldn't know and I don't care. Not at all relevant to why I'm not playing. I hate RoR for a lot of reasons, they are all structural. Many agree with me according to the stats.
No. Being naive and actual gameplay are two completely different things. Solo is NOT viable when people are not solo. If soloing was viable, I should be able to go out right now and have decent solo action meeting plenty of other soloers. Can I do that? No. So why are you saying soloing is very viable? We're not talking theory here, we're talking actual gameplay.
BECAUSE everyone wants to zerg up, fewer people solo and soloing is NOT as viable as it used to be.
Let's take away the statistics then and my own judgement then.
1. Mitigations bug lasted for months 1st half RoI.
2. Wargs and spiders were boosted 2nd half of RoI. This makes creeps side stronger overall.
3. Freeps were weakened slightly due to PvP gear.
4. Wargs were NOT responsible for the increase in the 2nd half.
All these things combined strongly suggest that creeps had it easier during the 2nd half of RoI. Now, before people react to the term "easier" again, I am NOT claiming it wasn't horrible. It was.
How can you argue against this? Your last post was filled with misunderstandings, where you misunderstood my use of some terms.
If we look at a scale from 1 to 100 where 50 is balance and 100 is freeps super duper op invincible and 1 is creeps super duper invincible, I would rank RoI like this:
1st half of RoI: 79
2nd half of RoI: 70
Now, those numbers can be discussed in and out, but the important thing is the relationship between them. That relationship can also be discussed, but it illustrates what I mean.
Edit: Btw, the day SWTOR was launched, pvp numbers dropped noticeably. But you're suggesting that this is not connected at all, and that the player drop is perhaps due to hundreds of spies giving up spying on that very day? Or were the stats correct then and on the preceding day of every expansion, just not now? That doesn't sound credible.
The stats ARE easy to read when you have experience and know what's happening around you. They jump up and down with events such as expansions and new games, and you would have to be pretty out there not to see the connection. If you want to read them in a different way, you are going against a norm, you're going against everything we already know.
I don't mean to be rude to you, I'm sorry if it comes out that way here. Just pointing at how hopeless your logic is here.
Last edited by stoffi; Feb 15 2013 at 11:36 AM.
Opinionating: last time can't be arsed anymore.
What is this talk about PvMP population? According to the same stats what Stoffi is referring to, the population is almost at the same level than a year ago. Here's the direct link: http://dailystats.theblackappendage....=Gilrain&d=365 (the second chart "Gilrain Freeps/Creeps").
Seems that the creep and freep population is slightly improving actually after the new year. Now I agree that the dailystats is not accurate at all, but since it is the only statistics, then so be it.
Raid vs raid action is great when it is somewhat balanced (ie. no zerging and zugging you zuggers). Then again solo play is frustrating...at least with my burg. Seems I can't beat almost anyone (most of it is because of poor skills, other part is because burg feels like a paper atm). I have moar fun with my audacity 7 guardian.
Well, all you and Squelcher seem to be saying is that you THINK this and that, whilst me THINKING this and that is not relevant because.... How is it that your opinions, which contradict a lot of indications I've shown, are more worth than my opinions, which are backed by those same indications that go against you?
It's a very flawed logic, especially seeing how extremely wrong Squelcher was the last time he THOUGHT something and my thoughts were supposedly wrong. It turned out I was right. That in itself gives my analytic skills an extra edge compared to Squelcher. Also, I'm a very analytic person, I am a guy who often sees the bigger picture, connecting things that other people often don't see, on the cost of details where other people might be better. My current MA involves a lot of statistics and analysis on several levels. Not mathematical statistics though.
Also, statistics are good for understanding OTHER periods, just not the periods I'm talking about...
LOTRO PvP ATTRACTIVITY affects how many players play. That is the one factor which is the most crucial for those statistics. There are other factors, yes, but that factor is the most important one. It is quite handy for you and Squelcher to claim that this does suddenly not apply any more... You are speculating about multiboxers and spies and the whole lot, but what made multiboxers and spies appear on the very day of U6? Early RoI saw just as much multiboxing as late RoI, it was a general complaint in this very thread throughout the period. Multiboxing was a problem throughout the entire period, and therefore does not explain the rise in numbers in RoI part 2.
Also, having spiders and wargs boosted along with a slight nerf to freeps, AND the mitigations bug gone, IS going to have an impact on balance. It is absurd to claim anything else. Ofc boosting someone will affect the balance, it's obvious to any 3 year old who wants a biiiig thing to help him get a better effect.
Are you indeed claiming that these things did not slightly change the balance? That wargs boosted and spiders slightly boosted, consisting of 40% of the creep population, did not affect creeps overall in any way? Even if all wargs ALL those wargs stayed far away from the fight and never ever helped another creep, creep side could still be said to have been boosted.
And the mitigations bug gone, are you honestly saying that this did not help every creep playing in RoI? Making creeps stronger?
And that slight nerf to freeps, even if it was only say 1%, it combines with the other stuff I've presented.
I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that this combined is something even a 3 year old would agree with me in that boosted creep side overall to a small extent in the 2nd part of RoI. It goes against all logic claiming a boost to one side and a slight nerf to one side will NERF the boosted side and BOOST the "nerfed" side, like Squelcher is claiming.
Then add my judgement and experience, then add statistics, and you have a powerful combination.
Obviously, we disagree, but 1 or 2 years from now, I believe history will tell us who was right. It's a common thing that people seem feel a need to disagree with me, but Turbine and time shows me right, like when people told me off for saying warg was weak early RoI. Most people disagreed, I made a thread about spiders and wargs where I got slagged off. Turbine agreed with me. I said RoI was horrible, people told me off. When will people stop disagreeing with me when I am presenting a logical explanation?
Last edited by stoffi; Feb 15 2013 at 02:34 PM.
The freep population was higher during RoI 2 compared to now, and slightly higher than RoI 1, how will Squelcher and Wiley explain that? Creeps spying? That too supports my claim, that PvP was more attractive during RoI 2 than both now and RoI 1.
Searching through the forum, I found that Wiley is correct about keep flipping, and I'm wrong. It started in update 2, I can't find any complaints about keep flipping before U6 was released in March 2012. One argument supporting his case.
There is a mysterious drop in creep numbers late April. What could have happened at that time?
As far as I remember, keep flipping became less of a problem throughout the period. Despite this, creep numbers do not drop. An argument against the keep flipping theory.
Which is wrong. I refer you to this link, where you can see that warg numbers are stable going from RoI 1 to RoI 2, but warg inf gain took a leap along with a few other creep classes, such as BA and spider. Are you going to dismiss that?
Warg numbers did not increase with RoI 2, only their inf gain.
Last edited by stoffi; Feb 15 2013 at 02:53 PM.
Stoff it is inappropriate to put myself and Wiley in the same bracket. We both disagree with you but on different levels, and I admit that I cannot rival his skills of debate on such subjects as this.
But my opinion of RoI was not formed upon thought, but on observations. My words in early RoI were a jump to a conclusion which occurred as RoI was the first time in my experience that creeps had gotten any kind of significant update. I will never make that mistake again and have been skeptical of RoR since its release, but, again, through observation I believe it to be an overall improvement on RoI.
Hello guys its been a while ... looks like everyone is doing fine so far (lets hope Ret doesnt read this reply ) ) anyway i just came here on gil forum to see how is everyone doing :P btw most of the ppl transfered/ create a new creep on another server cuz they got bored of freeps sitting all day in keeps... anway this isnt the reason i came:P just stoped to say Hello to everyone and i will be back in half year on gilrain maybe the action will improve by then :P (Selecteed)-(Subug)
PS: Jure i'm waiting for u on Snowbourn hehe its kinda booring whitout u here.... but atleast there is nobody like Ret and Vani to brake ppl nervs all day long
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