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  1. #5001
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    Quote Originally Posted by giboosc View Post
    Im just sayin that you changing interpretation of stats when it fits your theory, nothing more

    And for RoI, as i remember it was neverending farm fest for freeps, especialy on "second half" when ~70% of freeps was good geared.

    [at work, bored ;P]

    You can't pull random rabbits from a sack and say they are the same.

    Pluto is smaller than Venus! Hah! That proves everything.





    Do you have any proof to support your claim and to disprove my claims, other than the fact that you would disagree with me even if I was claiming grass to be green? Do you have any proof to suggest my arguments and my interpretation of the statistics is wrong? I am all ears.

  2. #5002
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    I actually remember something specific about the first period of RoI. I made a poll where people could vote whether they thought Moria or RoI was worse. Squelcher disagreed heavily and thought Moria was much worse (ironic, given his present claims that RoI was horrible) and that RoI was pretty nice. The reason for this was because his WL had been buffed, and he felt stronger. Yes, Squelcher felt RoI was a good period for creeps, telling me how wrong I was. Obviously, he was wrong. Squelcher was wrong back then, and he is wrong now.

    I'm probably bored enough to look it up right now. ^^

  3. #5003
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    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...rse-than-Moria


    And here's Squelcher posting in our old thread:

    "Freeps, from what Ive seen, are less powerful, or rather creeps are more powerful, than what we have seen. The balance has been brought to more reasonable terms. The faction to faction balance seems fairly good now, the only problem Imo is class related (Minstrels being Gods and perhaps other classes). Theres also just a few issues on creepside such as regen that need to be sorted before we can fully reach our potential against geared freeps.
    "
    Whereas I claimed that balance was horrible. Today, Squelcher agrees with me. Back then, he didn't. Today, Squelcher disagrees with me on our current discussion. In 1 year, he will agree with me.


    More from Squelcher:

    "Stoff as I said there were still things that needed to be scaled. But the balance is much better than it was, I did not say it was completely balanced. "

    I dont think that any creep class is standing as OP at the moment. They all have weaknesses and strengths. But yes, Stoff, the balance is way better now than it was before. When the regen is scaled along with BPE and dps is scaled a bit too, I would actually call it very nearly fully balanced (depends on how strong fully geared freep is though).
    Comments like these were consistent from Squelcher whenever I argued that RoI was horrible for creeps during that period. He thought it was balanced.

    The date is October 5th, 2011.


    I don't know what it is about me, but disagreeing with me seems to be sport, especially when I am reasonable and in the right.



    For Squelch, early RoI was probably decent(but was it horrible or balanced, depends on when you quote him) because WLs were boosted, but for most other creeps, early RoI was very tough. And they all came back over night when the 2nd half of RoI started. and left with RoR.
    Last edited by stoffi; Feb 14 2013 at 10:54 AM.

  4. #5004
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    Quote Originally Posted by giboosc View Post
    Im just sayin that you changing interpretation of stats when it fits your theory, nothing more

    And for RoI, as i remember it was neverending farm fest for freeps, especialy on "second half" when ~70% of freeps was good geared.

    [at work, bored ;P]
    About the second half. Wargs and spiders became proper classes and freeps was forced to use pvp armour sets with lower stats.
    If I can consider pre u6 as first period of roi and post u6 as last period since not much happend after that.

    But ofc as a warg it was more fun after u6 and I cba to spend much time on my reaver in that period.

  5. #5005
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    I actually remember something specific about the first period of RoI. I made a poll where people could vote whether they thought Moria or RoI was worse. Squelcher disagreed heavily and thought Moria was much worse (ironic, given his present claims that RoI was horrible) and that RoI was pretty nice. The reason for this was because his WL had been buffed, and he felt stronger. Yes, Squelcher felt RoI was a good period for creeps, telling me how wrong I was. Obviously, he was wrong. Squelcher was wrong back then, and he is wrong now.

    I'm probably bored enough to look it up right now. ^^
    I spoke as such in the first part of RoI.

    It was the second half of RoI that was truly dire.

  6. #5006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    I spoke as such in the first part of RoI.

    It was the second half of RoI that was truly dire.

    But you said all of RoI was horrible, with the 2nd half being the worst.


    Quote Originally Posted by grapez View Post
    About the second half. Wargs and spiders became proper classes and freeps was forced to use pvp armour sets with lower stats.
    If I can consider pre u6 as first period of roi and post u6 as last period since not much happend after that.

    But ofc as a warg it was more fun after u6 and I cba to spend much time on my reaver in that period.

    This is another argument in my favour. As I said during those weeks after RoI came out, spiders and wargs were desimated. This, Squelcher did not agree with, until maybe now.

    But the fact that two important classes were brought on par, and the fact that freeps were forced to use pvp armour with lower stats, further supports my claim.

    The list of arguments is now very long.

    For you, Squelcher, the 2nd half of RoI was bad, no one can argue with your personal perception. But in reality, the first half of RoI was worse than the 2nd half for the majority of creeps

  7. #5007
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    For you, Squelcher, the 2nd half of RoI was bad, no one can argue with your personal perception. But in reality, the first half of RoI was worse than the 2nd half for the majority of creeps
    Stoff I cannot speak for the majority of creeps but my view of their experiences will be far less skewed than a disconnected and inactive warg who avoids the main action.

  8. #5008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    Stoff I cannot speak for the majority of creeps but my view of their experiences will be far less skewed than a disconnected and inactive warg who avoids the main action.


    That statement is that of a hillbilly redneck former &&& guy, seething with ignorance and prejudice. ^^ (take it with humour, I'm not suggesting you are &&& )


    You have no idea what I do or not. As I said, I am ever present and know what's going on at the main fight at all times when I play. I rotate my positions, always checking the main fight so I know how the situation is like there, either just watching or actually engaging. In addition, I have been playing during all the 3 periods, knowing what is what like during each period. In any way, what I did is not important at all for this discussion.

    My claim is not based on my own personal experience alone, as yours is. My opinion is based on a long range of arguments stemming from other sources than myself. And I have shown how you in the past have been wrong where I have been right, and you claim that solo play is very much viable compared to RoI. Your personal credibility is weakened, and you have NOTHING to support your claims. Nothing. I, on the other hand, have provided you with plenty of arguments which you continue to ignore.



    Edit: Being a warg (for me at least), means you have to keep moving a lot. There are times when I rarely stand still for more than 10 seconds, rotating between my spots and the main fight continously. I don't just stand still all day in the vincinity of a spawn.
    Last edited by stoffi; Feb 14 2013 at 12:37 PM.

  9. #5009
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    Here's my list of arguments to support what the statistics say:


    1. Squelcher claimed I didn't play the 2nd half of RoI because that was the worst period ever. I showed that I did in fact play during that period.

    2. Squelch then made a new claim, claiming the rise in the player base in the 2nd period of RoI was due to a warg influx. This is again wrong, as statistics show.

    3. My personal experience, both by playing and talking to people, suggests that the stats are correct. I do, however, remember that Squelcher was one of very few who argued during the 1st half of RoI that it wasn't bad. He was pretty alone in the claim.

    4. My personal experience with LOTRO before stats even were introduced makes me well fit to interpret the stats. I knew BEFORE stats ever were around which period was decent or not. The stats only support a claim I had.

    5. The mitigations bug during the first few months of RoI. We all remember it. We all remember how much that messed us all up. This strongly supports the statistics, and most of us will have some personal experience with this, connecting the mitigation bug with early roi and a bad period for lotro pvp.

    6. Freeps were forced into PvE gear with lower stats during late RoI, obviously weakening them in some way.

    7. U6 meant Spiders and Wargs were finally on par again, being extremely poor during the first half of RoI. Needless to say, when 2 classes which make out 40-45% of the creep population is boosted, creep side overall is boosted. This also indicates that creep side overall were stronger 2nd half of RoI.

    8. Squelcher was wrong the last time we had a discussion like this. I claimed RoI was horrible, he claimed it was good. Today, he agrees with what I claimed back in 2011. Squelcher's personal opinion is thereby at a loss of credibility.

    9. Squelcher has nothing but his own personal opinion to back his opinion up, going against what the stats suggest and all this above.


    This is a long list of arguments to support my interpretation of the statistics. I would very much like to see anyone take it apart.
    Last edited by stoffi; Feb 14 2013 at 12:45 PM.

  10. #5010
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    Stoff you have yet to produce a creep who comes out in whole-hearted agreement with you or in total disagreement with me. My 'opinion' is based on experience of having led raids, participated in them and endlessly socialised with people of every class. I am not forming a baseless view for no reason. You are the only creep I know of with totally positive memories of late RoI.

  11. #5011
    Not really sure what number of players has to do with balance of the game, orange is banana?

  12. #5012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    Stoff you have yet to produce a creep who comes out in whole-hearted agreement with you or in total disagreement with me. My 'opinion' is based on experience of having led raids, participated in them and endlessly socialised with people of every class. I am not forming a baseless view for no reason. You are the only creep I know of with totally positive memories of late RoI.

    Manegarm just said I was correct... Keeslaff will say I'm wrong whatever I say, same will Reapor.


    Feelings, Squelcher, feelings are far from the truth. Feelings will trick you, feelings will make you believe things that are not true. That's what happened first half of RoI when you said there was close to complete balance. You were dead wrong. To be governed by feelings again - when so much "hard evidence" suggest you are wrong... Don't let your feelings corrupt your opinions again.

    Even if you completely disregard me as an opinionator, my case is not weakened. As I was saying, feelings can easily be corrupted and misled. Take away me as a factor, and my case is still very strong.

    RoI wasn't bliss, RoI was bad, and I complained probably hundreds of times about godmode freeps, especially in the 2nd half. But it was still better than the 1st half for a number of reasons I have pointed out.


    And why don't you try to disprove my arguments? Take them apart! You keep trying to discredit me, but that is completely irrelevant. You on the other hand, base your entire case on your personal feelings.

  13. #5013
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    Please guys. Don't be so obsessed of being right. It's all in the past anyway.
    The discussion is pointless and it's aslo boring reading.
    Last edited by grapez; Feb 14 2013 at 02:54 PM.

  14. #5014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zandras View Post
    Not really sure what number of players has to do with balance of the game, orange is banana?
    The number of players tells us something about how attractive LOTRO PvP is. It can be balance, it can be other things like with RoR where more fundamental things are messed up. SWTOR was one factor which made numbers drop too. I refer you to my list of arguments.

  15. #5015
    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    The number of players tells us something about how attractive LOTRO PvP is. It can be balance, it can be other things like with RoR where more fundamental things are messed up. SWTOR was one factor which made numbers drop too. I refer you to my list of arguments.
    The number of pvp players tells us how relatively attractive LOTRO PvP is to LOTRO PvE maybe. That is always going to increase during an expansion, and always has. I don't see how you can say balance of creep vs freep is directly proportional to how many people are in EM.

    Most people do the new PvE content enough times and then wonder what to do out of boredom and then go and PvP later in the expansion. There are very few people that only pvp on lotro. Like you said there are many many other factors.

    Wargs got f#¤%&d over at the start of RoI and became stronger during RoI. Generally though freeps got stronger against your average creep during RoI. Just my opinion though ofc.

  16. #5016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zandras View Post
    The number of pvp players tells us how relatively attractive LOTRO PvP is to LOTRO PvE maybe. That is always going to increase during an expansion, and always has. I don't see how you can say balance of creep vs freep is directly proportional to how many people are in EM.

    Most people do the new PvE content enough times and then wonder what to do out of boredom and then go and PvP later in the expansion. There are very few people that only pvp on lotro. Like you said there are many many other factors.

    Wargs got f#¤%&d over at the start of RoI and became stronger during RoI. Generally though freeps got stronger against your average creep during RoI. Just my opinion though ofc.
    Creeps got boosted too when the 2nd half of RoI came out, more so than freeps.


    Anyways, the number of pvp players doesn't have to tell us how relatively attractive lotro pvp is compared to lotro pve. It CAN tell us this, but you have to have more info than just statistics to know this. In order to establish this, you would have to know when a new expansion came out and then compare it with the statistics. If there's a match, it is highly likely that LOTRO PvE is more attractive than lotro pvp.

    And as we know, this happens with every expansion, a period lasting from 2 weeks to 2 months, depending on the new content.

    Therefore, that is even an argument supporting my case, because where you would suspect a drop in the player base when the 2nd half of RoI started due to new content, you saw a rise. Combined with everything else I've argued for, it is clear why.


    Similarly, a drop in PvP numbers was expected when RoR came out because of the new PvE content. We've seen it before, we know how it is. BUT, PvP numbers never recovered like they always do. Together with what I've presented, a clear indication that lotro PvP is not attractive enough compared to 2nd half of RoI.



    People might be bored during the later period of an expansion, but on the very day of a new update? Lasting for 6 months? Normally, pvp numbers increase the last few months and especially the last few weeks before a new expansion, not on the very day of a new update.

  17. #5017
    I think that argument originally started when you guys argued if RoI or RoR was worse/better. I can agree that RoR might have less players in EM, but when it comes to overall balance between creeps/freeps it's best as it ever was. Lower number of players in RoR is because of the fact that people feel they need to group nowdays in order to do something in EM, so during mornings and afternoons not many bother to log in (Ofc im talking about our server. Not sure how it is on other servers as i haven't tried any other in RoR time ). Solo play because of that is almost non existant. Yet when it comes to evenings i have never saw so many days in a row with that magic icon "Your awerness has been reduced because of number of players nearby" as it is now. Action just starts at evenings and rest of the day is boring.

    Summing up. Balance in RoR is better than in RoI but the number of players logging in dropped. If Turbine would do something to encourage people to log in during mornings and afternoon we could have the best PvMP experience ever in LotRO.

  18. #5018
    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    It CAN tell us this, but you have to have more info than just statistics to know this. In order to establish this, you would have to know when a new expansion came out and then compare it with the statistics. If there's a match, it is highly likely that LOTRO PvE is more attractive than lotro pvp.
    Found this, isn't for our server, but I think you can say expansion timing has a large effect on the number of people in EM even a few months before and after. If anything it is far more important than freep/creep balance.


  19. #5019
    Quote Originally Posted by Viriel View Post
    I think that argument originally started when you guys argued if RoI or RoR was worse/better. I can agree that RoR might have less players in EM, but when it comes to overall balance between creeps/freeps it's best as it ever was. Lower number of players in RoR is because of the fact that people feel they need to group nowdays in order to do something in EM, so during mornings and afternoons not many bother to log in (Ofc im talking about our server. Not sure how it is on other servers as i haven't tried any other in RoR time ). Solo play because of that is almost non existant. Yet when it comes to evenings i have never saw so many days in a row with that magic icon "Your awerness has been reduced because of number of players nearby" as it is now. Action just starts at evenings and rest of the day is boring.

    Summing up. Balance in RoR is better than in RoI but the number of players logging in dropped. If Turbine would do something to encourage people to log in during mornings and afternoon we could have the best PvMP experience ever in LotRO.
    I have a hard time taking you seriously especially since you have the audacity to discuss balance seeing as you're playing the 2nd most ridiculously overpowered class in EM.

  20. #5020
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viriel View Post
    I think that argument originally started when you guys argued if RoI or RoR was worse/better. I can agree that RoR might have less players in EM, but when it comes to overall balance between creeps/freeps it's best as it ever was. Lower number of players in RoR is because of the fact that people feel they need to group nowdays in order to do something in EM, so during mornings and afternoons not many bother to log in (Ofc im talking about our server. Not sure how it is on other servers as i haven't tried any other in RoR time ). Solo play because of that is almost non existant. Yet when it comes to evenings i have never saw so many days in a row with that magic icon "Your awerness has been reduced because of number of players nearby" as it is now. Action just starts at evenings and rest of the day is boring.

    Summing up. Balance in RoR is better than in RoI but the number of players logging in dropped. If Turbine would do something to encourage people to log in during mornings and afternoon we could have the best PvMP experience ever in LotRO.

    I never made claims about RoR balance as I don't know enough about that particular aspect. From what I hear from people, balance isn't a big issue, it's just the mechanics. But again, I can't comment on balance except from what people tell me.

    Your analysis seems logical, soloing is no longer as viable as it was, and that means players are more prone to run around in groups, and if there's no groups, it is more likely now than before that the player will avoid PvP until he can protection. This has an effect on numbers overall. And it means fewer people play.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zandras View Post
    Found this, isn't for our server, but I think you can say expansion timing has a large effect on the number of people in EM even a few months before and after. If anything it is far more important than freep/creep balance.

    Indeed. And after a while, numbers pick up again to normal. This did not happen with RoI or RoR because lotro PvP wasn't attractive enough. As far as I noticed, only creep numbers increased in the 2nd half of RoI, a clear indication that creeps got it easier. Wargs did not increase any more than other classes.

  21. #5021
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelious View Post
    I have a hard time taking you seriously especially since you have the audacity to discuss balance seeing as you're playing the 2nd most ridiculously overpowered class in EM.
    I have hard time taking you seriously when you are not even trying to read. I was comparing RoI to RoR. It's more balanced than it used to be no matter if minstrel class is first, scond or even least overpowered class in EM.

  22. #5022
    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    I never made claims about RoR balance as I don't know enough about that particular aspect. From what I hear from people, balance isn't a big issue, it's just the mechanics. But again, I can't comment on balance except from what people tell me.

    Your analysis seems logical, soloing is no longer as viable as it was, and that means players are more prone to run around in groups, and if there's no groups, it is more likely now than before that the player will avoid PvP until he can protection. This has an effect on numbers overall. And it means fewer people play.
    Solo play is still viable but there isn't safe spots like EC/OC used to be. People are afraid to die on their toons and that's why they don't play solo most of the time. The only solo action we have atm is GV/Grams, GY camp or keeps backdoor fights.

  23. #5023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viriel View Post
    Solo play is still viable but there isn't safe spots like EC/OC used to be. People are afraid to die on their toons and that's why they don't play solo most of the time. The only solo action we have atm is GV/Grams, GY camp or keeps backdoor fights.
    Problem is that group play is too beneficial, and when more people group up, there are less targets for the soloers, meaning even fewer will solo, meaning even fewer will solo, evil spiral.

    We still have safe spots(back doors) though, but these are too static. You can't work your way to the next "safe spot", you have to stay there to stay safe.

  24. #5024
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelious View Post
    One word, rubbish. There is absolutely no way that pvp was more balanced in RoI simply because there was no way to counter the OPness of freeps. Right now if creeps control 3-4 outposts, the gap between freeps and creeps is not that far apart.
    So, you agree with Viriel then?

  25. #5025
    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    So, you agree with Viriel then?
    Lmao i could have sworen i read it the other way around.

 

 
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