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  1. #4976
    Quote Originally Posted by Reapor View Post
    If you say so.

  2. #4977
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    You were inactive for most of that time. I think that a large number of creep and freep players will agree that the second half of RoI was one of the worst and most imbalanced times in the history of the Ettenmoors.

    You are mistaken, you're probably just mixing up the periods.

    First half of RoI was when wargs and spiders were completely ruined by Turbine. There were also "bugs" which lowered creep mitigations alot, and the first fix didn't fix it. That was when I decided to go on a break, along with every other r8+ warg on the server except Ratty.
    Then, in the second half of RoI, in late March or something, another update came and things got decent again. Yes, it was still very unbalanced, but it didn't come close to the first half of RoI. I played a lot during the 2nd half of RoI, starting early April last year. This you can check at dailystats. RoI itself came late October the year before. It's pretty neatly divided into two halfs.
    Last edited by stoffi; Feb 13 2013 at 04:28 PM.

  3. #4978
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    You are mistaken, you're probably just mixing up the periods.

    First half of RoI was when wargs and spiders were completely ruined by Turbine. There were also "bugs" which lowered creep mitigations alot, and the first fix didn't fix it. That was when I decided to go on a break, along with every other r8+ warg on the server except Ratty.
    Then, in the second half of RoI, in early April, another update came and things got decent again. Yes, it was still very unbalanced, but it didn't come close to the first half of RoI. I played a lot during the 2nd half of RoI, starting April last year. This you can check at dailystats. RoI itself came late October the year before. It's pretty neatly divided into two halfs.
    I am not mistaken. The second half of RoI was a diabolical time for the action and the worst in my memory. I know of no other creep who would say it was a good time for PVP.

    Wargs were strong. That's about it.

    I would make no such mistake with a time such as that, it is permanently burned into the memory of every creep who played actively during that time.

  4. #4979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    You were inactive for most of that time. I think that a large number of creep and freep players will agree that the second half of RoI was one of the worst and most imbalanced times in the history of the Ettenmoors.
    Nothing can be compared with Rohan.

    Nothing.
    ~Nimolas R11 Warden (Retired before RoR) (Snowbourn)

    ~Eralwen R10 hunter

  5. #4980
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon View Post
    Nothing can be compared with Rohan.

    Nothing.
    RoI was far worse in my opinion.

    You're a warden, you should be celebrating.

  6. #4981
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    I am not mistaken. The second half of RoI was a diabolical time for the action and the worst in my memory. I know of no other creep who would say it was a good time for PVP.

    Wargs were strong. That's about it.

    I would make no such mistake with a time such as that, it is permanently burned into the memory of every creep who played actively during that time.
    http://dailystats.theblackappendage....=Gilrain&d=365


    Look for yourself. You are mistaken. There is a big surge in the player base around the time when the second half of RoI starts because it was much better than the first half, a period marked by mitigation bugs and extreme unbalance.

    Here's my my stats from that period:

    http://dailystats.theblackappendage....rain/Stoffburz

    It's a bit bugged, but I started playing right around the time where it doesn't show anymore. And I came back a few weeks or so after the update came because I knew freeps would be busy pveing.


    Stats prove me right in this case. You might have thought it horrible, but a lot of players I know returned during the second half, which the stats support.

  7. #4982
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon View Post
    Nothing can be compared with Rohan.

    Nothing.

    Squelcher is wrong here as well. His personal opinion about what is worse or best is his own ofc, but RoR IS worse than RoI ever was. Just take a look at these statistics:


    http://dailystats.theblackappendage....=Gilrain&d=365

    Just look at that drop in the player base when RoR was released, a drop which is still there very much. It is even lower than early RoI. There is no question about it, RoR and early RoI are two horrible periods for PvP.

    In addition, the action daytime and early evening is enough to show me that RoI was a lot better. Lug backdoor camping with 6v6 every day, all the time, constantly. Squelch may think RoR is better, but the Gilrainians obviously don't agree.

  8. #4983
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    Stoff, the vast majority of returning players were wargs. Most of whom left again shortly before RoR.

    Stats cannot universally justify every opinion. As a regular raid, small group and solo player during ALL of the RoI time period I can tell you with absolute clarity that it was one of the most dire states of balance in the Moors.

    Just ask the RKs how many creeps they could outheal, or the champs how many they could solo. Ask the reavers how often they could charge in and live long enough to get back out again.

    The very stats you post show that wargs earned more than and vastly outnumbered any other creep class during that period.
    Last edited by Squelcher; Feb 13 2013 at 04:43 PM.

  9. #4984
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    Stoff, the vast majority of returning players were wargs. Most of whom left again shortly before RoR.

    Stats cannot universally justify every opinion. As a regular raid, small group and solo player during ALL of the RoI time period I can tell you with absolute clarity that it was one of the most dire states of balance in the Moors.

    Just ask the RKs how many creeps they could outheal, or the champs how many they could solo. Ask the reavers how often they could charge in and live long enough to get back out again.

    The very stats you post show that wargs earned vastly more than any other creep class during that period.

    I know all that, and you're on very thin ground here. There is NO large amount of returning wargs in the 2nd half of RoI. The number is stable, actually going down slightly. You're reasoning is simply wrong.


    And no, wargs were only inf winners in the 2nd half of RoI.

    Face it. Many, many more creeps played during the 2nd half of RoI than in the first, and 33% of those creeps disappeared with RoR. This is also confirmed by me seeing a lot of returning players in the 2nd half of RoI.

    You're simply remembering wrong. Nothing bad about that.

  10. #4985
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    You can believe what you want, but alot more creeps played in the 2nd half of RoI, a clear indication that things were better then. And then the numbers drop by 33% when RoR comes, a clear indication that PvP got worse.

    There is nothing to argue about here. You have one opinion, the rest of the creeps have another as they didn't play during your so-called glory periods and played during your miserable period.

  11. #4986
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    Most players will tell you that creepside is experiencing a boom in population since RoR. Most of these people are attracted by the increased strength of creeps and the infamy inflation. AKA easymoders who will vanish if balance becomes poor again.

    Stoff, the strength of wargs is not a valid factor by which to judge the quality of an era. You yourself personally prefer camping away from the action in strategic spots. I don't slate you for this playstyle, it's creative. But it provides you with an incomplete view of action. Almost every day of RoI from its release to its end, I was online and playing to some extent and what I saw in early RoI was an improvement which steadily deteriorated into a ludicrously imbalanced heal and store fest at the end of RoI.

  12. #4987
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    You can believe what you want, but alot more creeps played in the 2nd half of RoI, a clear indication that things were better then. And then the numbers drop by 33% when RoR comes, a clear indication that PvP got worse.
    That is really normal tbh. People is bored during the pre-expansion time, so PvP goes up, more people playing in the moors. When RoR came lot of people spend their time leveling characters, Hytbold dailies, etc, not playing in EM much. I didnt even enter the moors til 3 of my characters were at lvl 85 and geared. So, according to those stats I'd be one of those who think that RoI was better than RoR, but im not.
    [IMG]http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii524/Martwen/juan_zps65bf8663.jpg[/IMG]

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  13. #4988
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    An interesting sociological experiment if ever I have seen one...

    I fell in battle at the hands of a group while attempting to defeat the warrior known as Viriel. Upon my death, I tab out. I first browse these forums, followed by Reddit, checking numerous subReddits. A short assesment of Facebook and YouTube aswell. I decide after, say, 10 minutes that it is time to return to the game. I tab in to find this most ungentlemanly champion who appeared to be so drunk that he was bloody, with long and greasy brown hair, bouncing upon my pixels, apparently since the moment I died.

    I decide to study this fascinating specimen, and I watch...

    After some time, his accomplices in crime tire of watching him, and ride away upon their well-groomed steeds. The specimen, admirably determined that the pixels beneath his pixels needed to be flattened, continued with his endeavour. He was amazingly well-adapted to the process of jumping. I wonder did his species evolve in an arboreal environment. A question for another day.

    However, even this remarkable specimen had its limits. It began to lose energy. Its jumps becoming visibly irregular and slower. Soon enough, other creeps come along to terminate him. Alas, his species' cowardice is greater than its desire to jump on things. The specimen abandons its mission, and flees. To no avail. Yet, in what seemed to be an act of enraged vengeance, it called upon its companions to terminate the offenders who attacked it.

    I regret that I was unable to capture the specimen for further study. I believe that I may be able to lure the creature with dead meat...

  14. #4989
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    So 24 hours of maintenance instead of 12....
    Rogelio - Burglar R6 - Location: Probably behind you!
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  15. #4990
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juanra View Post
    That is really normal tbh. People is bored during the pre-expansion time, so PvP goes up, more people playing in the moors. When RoR came lot of people spend their time leveling characters, Hytbold dailies, etc, not playing in EM much. I didnt even enter the moors til 3 of my characters were at lvl 85 and geared. So, according to those stats I'd be one of those who think that RoI was better than RoR, but im not.
    No, it is not normal. I've studied these graphs every expansion since we got them. Pre-expansion time is NOT 6 months time. It's at best 2 months. I've played this game for soon 6 years. The increase came the day the 2nd half of RoI was released, which all of us know wouldn't be the norm. This wasn't a random rise in numbers. It happened for a reason, it happened because RoI PvP got better over night. The number stayed stable for the entire period until RoR came.
    Now, what we usually see when a new expansion comes is a drop in the pvp player base, but after x weeks, it picks up again. With RoR, this has NOT happened. The numbers stay low even now, even lower than early RoI.

    You can say what you want, but the facts are right there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    Most players will tell you that creepside is experiencing a boom in population since RoR. Most of these people are attracted by the increased strength of creeps and the infamy inflation. AKA easymoders who will vanish if balance becomes poor again.

    Stoff, the strength of wargs is not a valid factor by which to judge the quality of an era. You yourself personally prefer camping away from the action in strategic spots. I don't slate you for this playstyle, it's creative. But it provides you with an incomplete view of action. Almost every day of RoI from its release to its end, I was online and playing to some extent and what I saw in early RoI was an improvement which steadily deteriorated into a ludicrously imbalanced heal and store fest at the end of RoI.
    You know very well that feelings and facts are not the same. You might think more creeps are online, but the stats show the opposite. My own experience shows supports this, there are very people online daytime and evening numbers are lower than before.

    I don't know why you are bringing up wargs here. What has warg got to do with it? Warg numbers were stable through the whole of RoI. Warg is irrelevant.


    You continue to refuse to comment the dailystats I showed you, you just keep making up new stuff. At first it was that I wasn't around and wouldn't know, then you blamed wargs for the rise in numbers, and when that failed too, I don't really get your argument here because it's vague. You don't really present an argument, other than "NO".

    And to think you know how I play... I rotate, Squelch. I rotate between various spots and the main fight. I read ooc. You might not see me, but I may still be there watching the pew, looking for any potential kills. I've been to probably thousands of pews, I've followed hundreds of raids, I've fought in hundreds of raid fights. I always know how the situation is at the main fight because I check it myself, often, because it is important to know how the situation is at the main fight. It tells me if I can get kills there or where I should place myself (This is ofc in past tense, I don't play now).


    The facts are there and you refuse to comment on them. Explain the drops and rises in population on dailystats, backing up EVERYTHING I claimed before posting those stats. And, you still haven't commented on the mitigation bug the first half of RoI. A bug which affected creeps severly and made life horrible for us all. Another proof that the first half was horrific.

  16. #4991
    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    You can say what you want, but the facts are right there.
    Yes, he's right, there's only one way to interpret facts.

  17. #4992
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogburz View Post
    Yes, he's right, there's only one way to interpret facts.

    He's presented no alternative way of interpreting facts. That is a fact. My interpretation is not only the most obvious interpretation, but is based on years of this kind of interpretation along with actual on-the-ground observation. I love statistics and have watched LOTRO statistics since the beginning.

    Not to mention we all remember the mitigations bug and how horrible that period was for us all.
    Last edited by stoffi; Feb 14 2013 at 05:39 AM.

  18. #4993
    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    He's presented no alternative way of interpreting facts. That is a fact. My interpretation is not only the most obvious interpretation, but is based on years of this kind of interpretation along with actual on-the-ground observation. I love statistics and have watched LOTRO statistics since the beginning.
    Granted, you've supported your argument with evidence (stats) but you believe the only possible variables for these stats are the ones you've presented? Also, Juanara and Squelch don't have "on-the-ground-observation"? Years of experience and stats since the beginning are quite irrelevant here since you guys are talking about a specific "recent" period yet, you admit to not playing through the period Squelch did and dismiss his "on-the-ground observation" of it?

    Your fault here is not your argument but your dismissive nature of "I'm right and you're not" which as you well know has no place in even the most academic of quarters my friend Between 1349-1350 2 million people from England and Wales died to the Black Plague. I think it's a terrible tragedy, another think it was actually a good thing....he's wrong because the stats say so? I don't think so. Juanara and Squelch are basing their opinions on "their" experience which you frankly have no right to dismiss. Simple.

  19. #4994
    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    stats thing
    There is 10 families on one street. One wife has cheat her man 10 times, the rest of wives didnt cheat.

    Statisticaly every wife on that street cheated once.

    Stats dont lie, but it isnt a true either.
    Gilrain: Keeslanaff - r12 RVR
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  20. #4995
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogburz View Post
    Granted, you've supported your argument with evidence (stats) but you believe the only possible variables for these stats are the ones you've presented? Also, Juanara and Squelch don't have "on-the-ground-observation"? Years of experience and stats since the beginning are quite irrelevant here since you guys are talking about a specific "recent" period yet, you admit to not playing through the period Squelch did and dismiss his "on-the-ground observation" of it?

    Your fault here is not your argument but your dismissive nature of "I'm right and you're not" which as you well know has no place in even the most academic of quarters my friend Between 1349-1350 2 million people from England and Wales died to the Black Plague. I think it's a terrible tragedy, another think it was actually a good thing....he's wrong because the stats say so? I don't think so. Juanara and Squelch are basing their opinions on "their" experience which you frankly have no right to dismiss. Simple.


    My evidence is not only statistics.

    I'll list the evidence:

    1. Squelcher claimed I didn't play the 2nd half of RoI because that was the worst period ever. I showed that I did in fact play during that period.

    2. Squelch then made a new claim, claiming the rise in the player base in the 2nd period of RoI was due to a warg influx. This is again wrong, as statistics show.

    3. My personal experience, both by playing and talking to people, suggests that the stats are correct. I do, however, remember that Squelcher was one of very few who argued during the 1st half of RoI that it wasn't bad. He was pretty alone in the claim.

    4. My personal experience with LOTRO before stats even were introduced makes me well fit to interpret the stats. I knew BEFORE stats ever were around which period was decent or not. The stats only support a claim I had.

    5. The mitigations bug during the first few months of RoI. We all remember it. We all remember how much that messed us all up. This strongly supports the statistics, and most of us will have some personal experience with this, connecting the mitigation bug with early roi and a bad period for lotro pvp.




    Squelcher's claim is just based on his personal experience and a lot of flawed arguments which are disproven. The Black Plague happened, neither he or me can argue that. Even so, Squelcher is trying to claim that the Black Plague never really happened during that period, it happened at another time. He needs proof to show this. But Squelcher is well allowed to say that he thought the Black Plague really was a period of growth and happiness. I'm sure it was to some anyways. But the fact remains, the majority experienced the Black Plague, Early RoI and RoR as a bad period compared to late RoI.


    I have presented statistics, which even alone are hard to counter, and other evidence to support the statistics. At the same time, I have countered Squelcher's arguments, proving them wrong.

    All this together, along with everyone here's knowledge about these periods, is very strong evidence in favour of my claim.

    And even though Squelcher and I are discussing here, it's nothing personal from my side, he's still a good guy. It's healthy to discuss sometimes.
    Last edited by stoffi; Feb 14 2013 at 08:36 AM.

  21. #4996
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    Stoffi, RoI was a disaster for creep side. Balance was far worse before RoR. It was more fun playing as warg in the second half of RoI then after RoR but creep vs freep overall was pretty unfair. Why do people forget so quickly?
    Yet nothing beats the first period after RoI. All freep classes seemed OP and there was mini's and champs everywhere.
    Last edited by grapez; Feb 14 2013 at 08:46 AM.
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  22. #4997
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    Quote Originally Posted by grapez View Post
    Stoffi, RoI was a disaster for creep side. Balance was far worse before RoR. It was more fun playing as warg in the second half of RoI then after RoR but creep vs freep overall was pretty unfair. Why do people forget so quickly?
    Yet nothing beats the first period after RoI. All freep classes seemed OP and there was mini's and champs everywhere.
    You support my claim then. The first period after RoI was worse than the 2nd half, when a lot of creeps returned because it got better.
    Yes, it was a horrible period, but RoI 1st half was worse than RoI 2nd half, as you say. The opposite of Squelcher's claim. Also backed by my list of arguments above and the statistics.


    As for balance in RoR, I got no idea about the balance; I just know that a lot of people quit because of all the fundamental changes. Knowing statistics go up and down because of things like this (you can see in the stats when SWTOR is launched, when a new expansion is launched and when an update is released), there is no doubt that many left with RoR, and the obvious reason is because pvp got worse.

    The problem with RoI was balance. First half worse than the 2nd half.
    The problem with RoR is more fundamental. Wasn't it you who said ingame to me that the backdoors and the inf/ren system was horrible and you were forced to pack up a lot because there were no solo targets, and even in packs you had problems finding targets?
    Last edited by stoffi; Feb 14 2013 at 08:53 AM.

  23. #4998
    Its preety funny how you changing interpretation of your beloved stats to make them fit to your actual theory. It seems your conclusions are mostly based on numbers of creeps/freeps taken from stats. In june 2011 you posted

    Everything is relative. 1 average freep is a lot more powerful than 1 average creep, and that includes hunters. Telling me how many orcs are on isn't the same as orcs actually capable of doing anything but dying. 27 reavers, sure. 15-20 of them are probably greenies and chars logged to trade or do a quick quest. Same could be said for the defilers.
    to prove that number of log-ins is not "exact" number of players.
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  24. #4999
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    Quote Originally Posted by giboosc View Post
    Its preety funny how you changing interpretation of your beloved stats to make them fit to your actual theory. It seems your conclusions are mostly based on numbers of creeps/freeps taken from stats. In june 2011 you posted



    to prove that number of log-ins is not "exact" number of players.
    I remember that well.

    Are you suggesting that the 2nd half of RoI (All well timed with the release) saw a sudden surge of greenie reavers and they all left when RoR came out? Do you have anything suggesting this? I played a lot during that period, and I saw many older players return and did not notice this surge you might be suggesting.


    (Edit: Home sick today, I'm bored.)
    Last edited by stoffi; Feb 14 2013 at 08:58 AM.

  25. #5000
    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    I remember that well.

    Are you suggesting that the 2nd half of RoI (All well timed with the release) saw a sudden surge of greenie reavers and they all left when RoR came out? Do you have anything suggesting this? I played a lot during that period, and I saw many older players return and did not notice this surge you might be suggesting.


    (Edit: Home sick today, I'm bored.)
    Im just sayin that you changing interpretation of stats when it fits your theory, nothing more

    And for RoI, as i remember it was neverending farm fest for freeps, especialy on "second half" when ~70% of freeps was good geared.

    [at work, bored ;P]
    Gilrain: Keeslanaff - r12 RVR
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