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  1. #1

    Yellow line revamp

    The yellow line has become over time outdated. Unless you are going to a raid, there is really no use in traiting anything other than red. The plans I intend to explain below would not only make our yellow traits worthwhile again, but they would also make yellow a viable, non dps based soloing base, while at the same time giving crowd control and debuffs the value thay deserve.

    First I would role the "study of" traits into one single trait. This would make them more than worthwhile, and would open up positions for two new traits. One of these new traits would make bane flare affect all mob types, while increasing the cooldown to 3 minutes. In order to avoid this being OP, the line bonus affecting the number of bane flare targets would be replaced with with the cracked earth root delay bonus, and the 3rd line bonus would now be an increase of two to the maximum targets of all lore skills.

    The other new trait would cut the cooldown of all lore skills (minus storm lore) in half. This is meant to pseudo-serve as a replacement to our underwhelming yellow capstone, which I would replace.

    Finally, I would make the capstone turn the stuns from test of will, LotRD, and ents go to war into knockdowns and increase their duration by one second. This may seem underwhelming at first, but keep in mind that knockdowns even work on mobs (and bosses) that are stun immune. It would not be overpowered, because it is the capstone, meaning that ents and LotRD wouldn't be able to have their shortened cooldowns that they get by traiting red.

    Obviously it is a radical change, and opposition is to be expected. I am still curious what the LM community thinks, and the reasons why. I personally do not think these changes would be OP, as we are giving up dps to trait into this line, and all these changes do is flesh out what the class was designed to be in the very beginning, a CC class.
    It's not only that I should succeed, others's (monster players) should suffer.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    30

    Re: Yellow line revamp

    C'mon give blue some love. It needs it more than yellow
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  3. #3
    I love LM. But it is a middling class in groups. We're not the CC class as is often said. CC is a vital part of what we do, but much of that is done through pets, slowing down enemies and short stuns. In groups, most of those skills are of limited use.

    We have 2 straight up all purpose long-lasting CC skills. So maybe we're asked to keep a mob mezzed when in a raid. Hardly makes us the ultimate CC class. Our yellow line is our debuff line, though some seem to think it's our CC line. Our blue line is more of a CC line - but again, for solo content. Red line diminishes our ability to CC while significantly increasing our DPS, though other classes are still preferable for DPS. And if we mix trait lines a bit too much to permit us a more versatile playstyle, power can become an issue. I'm mostly saying all this for the non-LMs

    I agree we need a bit more oomph across the board. Allow us to blend trait lines more easily. It's versatility that makes it a great class. I would like to be able to trait 3 red without severely handicapping CC, more pet functionality in groups, more competent healing. The yellow fine is fine for a room full of mobs. But it would be more useful to be able to trait 3 red, 2 yellow, and 2 blue so that we can do dps when called for, do CC when called for, and heal when called for. We won't be astounding in any one area with that kind of traiting, but it should be a more realistic possibility. Right now with that configuration, dps would dwindle our power/morale excessively while handicapping our CC, we'd then have to spend valuable time drawing power (as a matter of course, rather than the occasional necessity), and have underwhelming healing abilities.

    The way that the trait lines diminish our natural flexibility is contrary to the LM class. It's no wonder many of us find each line so lacking. If we're going to be wedged into a narrow role, we would expect that role to be a bit more impressive. The trait lines need to give us more choice. I've wondered if simply adding a trait slot could be a good solution.

    I'm not sure what we could do to make the debuffing yellow line more attractive on its own.
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  4. #4
    I posted this in another thread but here is goes again. I think we should decrease the cooldown of our fire/wind/frost lore skills to something like 5 seconds and decrease the amount they debuff to about -20%. This means we can always keep up our lore skills on the target and reapply them easily if they miss. As we trait deeper into yellow the amount we debuff will increase. So with no yellow traits your lore skills debuff -20% and with 2 yellows it debuffs -25%, 3 yellow it debuffs -30%, 4 yellows it debuffs -35% and with 5 yellows it debuffs -40%. Our yellow capstone would be allow our lore skills to increase the damage an enemy receives based on the lore skill. So fire lore would decrease the enemies melee damage by -40% and increase the melee damage it receives by 10%. This would be a huge boon to group dps without being overpowered.

    As for the yellow traits themselves.
    Deep lore is good
    Power and wisdom could make knowledge of power a power sucking DoT skill so we don't need to channel it anymore.
    Fast loader should reduce the induction of blinding flash plus add a 5s stun like perplexing riddle does.
    secret of tar could be changed to The study of herb lore which reduces the cooldown of herb lore and makes cracked earth root faster.
    The study of X lore skills should be rolled into one and just make fire/wind/frost lore debuff -5% more.
    With the two new lore slots you could devote one to making warding circles better and the other to make signs of power:see all ends increase incoming crit change like the draigoch armor does.
    Improved signs of power:command should give +50% induction time.
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  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
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    India
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispian View Post

    We have 2 straight up all purpose long-lasting CC skills. So maybe we're asked to keep a mob mezzed when in a raid. Hardly makes us the ultimate CC class. Our yellow line is our debuff line, though some seem to think it's our CC line. Our blue line is more of a CC line - but again, for solo content. Red line diminishes our ability to CC while significantly increasing our DPS, though other classes are still preferable for DPS. And if we mix trait lines a bit too much to permit us a more versatile playstyle, power can become an issue. I'm mostly saying all this for the non-LMs
    Actually we have quite a lot of effective cc skills.....we have Blinding Flash (single target 30 sec mez), Herb Lore (8 target 30 sec root), Cracked Earth (5 target 30 sec root), Test of Will (single target 5 second unbreakable stun), Storm Lore (8 target immediate 3 second stun)...

    Out of the above, the major two mez and root skills are resettable with a skill....in case we miss.....

    So technically our cc is pretty decent.....not to mention, our Yellow line is a debuff-cc line...not just the debuff line.....three of the major cc related traits are in Am line....Fast Loader, Deep Lore and The Secret of Tar.....Blue line on the contrary offers no advantage to cc....

    So on the whole....IMHO, the traits themselves in the Yellow line are pretty decent (with maybe a few exceptions like Study of Fire Lore, etc...which could use some tweaking)......the set bonuses are the things that are underwhelming.....we need some powerful bonuses to debuff-cc on traiting deep into the Ancient Master line.....as powerful as the set bonuses that MoNF gives to our damage.....Not to mention, the capstone legendary of the yellow line should be reworked to be something much more effective......

    Other than that, I think the Blue line needs far more attention than the Yellow line.....its in a much worse state....
    Arkenhelm - 86 Loremaster (R6) - Landroval
    Ivalden - 76 Captain (R2) - Landroval
    Drankorg - Warg (R5) - Landroval
    Naurvion - 26 Loremaster - Landroval

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    Buffalo NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiles.zack View Post
    This is meant to pseudo-serve as a replacement to our underwhelming yellow capstone, which I would replace.
    Underwhelming what?! Do you run end game content? Without that capstone, bosses would deal 25/30% more damage 50% of the time. And if we cut the cd in half like you would like, all that would mean is we apply it twice as often. I don't see what you're trying to accomplish with that. No sir, I am quite happy with the yellow capstone.

    Other various notes... stuns turning into knockdowns: quite simply, no. First of all, all Orthanc bosses are immune to knockdowns anyway, so it would do next to nothing unless you're running old content. In which case, if you need knock downs on bosses, your problem isn't the trait line. As for combining traits and whatever, the only thing I agree with in there is that Bane Flare needs some sort of revamp. It's nearly useless for the moment, and even back in OD, it was a little finicky to rely on. That being said, we don't need it turned into another mez, that would be repetitive. Nor do we need a set bonus that gives us more targets for our Lore skills. That's what Deep Lore is for.

    There's absolutely no reason to start picking apart our line that actually serves its purpose, and serves it well, in raids. Yellow and red each have their place, as they do with ever single other class in this game. That's the point of trait lines; not to make each equally viable for every bit of content, but rather situational for your group's needs (or personal needs if you're soloing I suppose). The only line I will agree to complain about is Blue, which, at this moment, has no niche to fill unless you're running it solo for the lawls (as it were) and not for practicality.

    In short, quit complaining and trait Red if you're solo.

    Edit: First person to suggest Blue for solo because your Bog Lurker tanks can smack him/herself on the back of the head.
    Last edited by JDCass; Jun 22 2012 at 01:05 PM.
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  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    571
    Quote Originally Posted by wiles.zack View Post
    Unless you are going to a raid, there is really no use in traiting anything other than red....would also make yellow a viable, non dps based soloing base...
    The OP's premise is that AM is good for raids, but not for solo, and therefore, AM should be revamped to be useful while solo. This is like saying that a Lambourghini is great for racing, but not for driving on dirt roads. Therefore, we should make the Lambourghini more suitable for off-road driving.

    The AM capstone was called "underwhelming": I would not agree. I think the AM capstone is the best of our capstones. It not only used in raids, but also used by some as a way to be primary healers in 3-person content.

    I do like the idea of a knockdown skill. Perhaps it could be folded into KoA, the line that needs the most fixing. One possibility is to make the KoA skill like Call of the Mammoth, which gives us an AoE knockdown skill. That would be fun!


    Quote Originally Posted by Crispian View Post
    The yellow fine is fine for a room full of mobs. But it would be more useful to be able to trait 3 red, 2 yellow, and 2 blue so that we can do dps when called for, do CC when called for, and heal when called for. We won't be astounding in any one area with that kind of traiting, but it should be a more realistic possibility. Right now with that configuration, dps would dwindle our power/morale excessively while handicapping our CC, we'd then have to spend valuable time drawing power (as a matter of course, rather than the occasional necessity), and have underwhelming healing abilities.
    You can go AM and still dps and heal. Grab Light of Hope and Harmony of Nature if you want some more hybrid goodness.


    Quote Originally Posted by JDCass View Post
    First of all, all Orthanc bosses are immune to knockdowns anyway,.
    I agree with your post, JD, but I am 80% certain that I've seen bosses knocked down, probably due to a well timed Trip.
    Last edited by anteku; Jun 22 2012 at 02:18 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    atm lore master need for sure a debuff on healing and another debuff for increase damage.

    Atm cc is a point for every class no need a LM for CC, burg and hunter can do the same job

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Cowplain, United Kingdom
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    805
    I've posted elsewhere suggestions for AM changes that would make the class viable in the Ettens, summarised:

    See all ends resets DR on CC on the targeted mob
    Improved Frost Lore makes brands and pots etc unusuable while the debuff is on, but does not wipe any current effects
    Both subject to normal resistances.

    A class CC issue in raids is adaptation preventing lockdown. A clever mechanic in many ways it can suffer from too many other CC skills from other classes in the raid meaning that our skill gets used by others, deliberately or inadvertantly. Perhaps one of our skills, with maybe a longer CD could wipe adaptation from a mob. CTTV suggests itself ("O Elbereth, help me with this effin Saruman clone") or, and more tactically demanding, a suitable bane circle stops adaptation working while the mob is in it ("please stop drawing aggro Hunter, I'm trying to mez")

    There are folks who solo in AM. I have enormous respect for their patience.
    Mithithil Ithryndi

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithithil View Post
    There are folks who solo in AM. I have enormous respect for their patience.
    /bow
    Thank you

    I have enormous respect for MoNFs who deal good damage and fulfill the more important roles at the same time.... But I just feel weak and uncomfortable when I trait MoNF.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by JDCass View Post
    Underwhelming what?! Do you run end game content? Without that capstone, bosses would deal 25/30% more damage 50% of the time. And if we cut the cd in half like you would like, all that would mean is we apply it twice as often. I don't see what you're trying to accomplish with that. No sir, I am quite happy with the yellow capstone.

    Other various notes... stuns turning into knockdowns: quite simply, no. First of all, all Orthanc bosses are immune to knockdowns anyway, so it would do next to nothing unless you're running old content. In which case, if you need knock downs on bosses, your problem isn't the trait line. As for combining traits and whatever, the only thing I agree with in there is that Bane Flare needs some sort of revamp. It's nearly useless for the moment, and even back in OD, it was a little finicky to rely on. That being said, we don't need it turned into another mez, that would be repetitive. Nor do we need a set bonus that gives us more targets for our Lore skills. That's what Deep Lore is for.

    There's absolutely no reason to start picking apart our line that actually serves its purpose, and serves it well, in raids. Yellow and red each have their place, as they do with ever single other class in this game. That's the point of trait lines; not to make each equally viable for every bit of content, but rather situational for your group's needs (or personal needs if you're soloing I suppose). The only line I will agree to complain about is Blue, which, at this moment, has no niche to fill unless you're running it solo for the lawls (as it were) and not for practicality.

    In short, quit complaining and trait Red if you're solo.

    Edit: First person to suggest Blue for solo because your Bog Lurker tanks can smack him/herself on the back of the head.

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  12. #12
    I made that Thread a few time ago and just updated it recently specially to improve Yellow and Blue lines.


    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...29#post6123929


    Would liek to get some more feedback and (constructive) comments.

 

 

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